New Symbolism

I have read a couple of reviews of decks that divert away from the traditional imagery of Tarot, especially the pips. For example, the Medieval Scapini pips in many cases have images that do not line up at all with the RWS, Thoth, Golden Dawn meanings attributed to them. There are many other decks of course that have different takes on the pips.

I have seen these decks' divergence be seen as a negative, suggesting that the unfamiliar images would somehow throw off people who are used to the more traditional imagery.

I don't see this as a negative...in fact I think it's great. I have still yet to see a deck (maybe someone knows of one), where the 10 of swords does not feature an ominous scene (Marseilles type pips decks excluded) or where the 2 of cups is not positive. I think it's great to shake things up a bit.

I'd love to see something like "The Opposite Tarot", where the two of cups is dreary, and the 10 of swords is cheerful or triumphant.

Splungeman said:

I have still yet to see a deck (maybe someone knows of one), where the 10 of swords does not feature an ominous scene (Marseilles type pips decks excluded) or where the 2 of cups is not positive. I think it's great to shake things up a bit.

I'd love to see something like "The Opposite Tarot", where the two of cups is dreary, and the 10 of swords is cheerful or triumphant.

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Well, you haven't seen the Daughters of the Moon Tarot (or the New Orleans Voodoo Tarot, for that matter)!

In the DOM, 2 of Cups is called "The Whirlpool", and shows two golden cups being sucked into a whirlpool while rain beats down. One cup is almost gone, and one swirls around the periphery...there's still time to pluck it out of the whirlpool. Very dreary card.

In the NOVT the 2 of Cups is called Gran Ibo, and shows Gran Ibo, the wise woman of the swamp, as she sits and contemplates things with her magic canary. This card is interpreted as one of harmony and wisdom.

the 10 of Swords is called the 10 of Blades--The Rattle and shows a group of ten women sitting around a campfire under a tepee, laughing and listening to the woman holding the rattle stick--which is what one holds when it's one's turn to speak and the others to listen. Very cheerful card, one of community.

IN the NOVT the 10 of Swords is called 10 Rada, and shows Azaka the farmer plowing what seems to be a barren field. A rainbow shines down upon him from a sunny sky. It's not a dreary card at all, like the traditional RWS version.

I have attached images of those cards I was able to find (I don't have a scanner).

T.

Thanks Afrosaxon!

Great examples!

Now...Why is it that decks like these would be difficult to adapt to for say, someone who has a used a strict RWS type deck? To me, the cards depict scenes with symbolic meaning. Shouldn't the symbol itself be more important than worrying about it not matching up to what you're used to?

Again...I like it when a deck strikes out on its own. It's good for us to shake things up once in awhile. I think it makes us better readers.

i've noticed that many times the imagery of the card itself informs the meaning of the card within the spread. i think it's important to learn the systems and traditional meanings of the cards, but i also think part of putting them together in a story is being flexible in terms of what they show. someone who stuck by the book definition no matter what and didn't tailor the interpretation to the querent, the surrounding cards, or the question would be a pretty poor reader.

a good, experienced reader can already look at the cards and... well, interpret them. it sounds absurd that someone could be so in lockstep with rote meanings that they'd be completely thrown off by cards that depicted something non-traditional. most of us know it's not that cut and dried.

besides, the rws has different nuances from the thoth etal., and there are hundreds of different decks with slightly different flavors, and oracle decks besides. bring on the symbolism.

Actually the Bosch tarot does not have an ominous 10 of swords. Actually, almost NOTHING in the Bosch tarot is traditional. I love it & I think a friend of mine is going to give me thier copy. I keep trying to get up the money to buy my own copy but every time I save ANY money, something has hit me lately.

But I digress. If you want a deck that will make you question the card meanings, that is the deck for you should you be able to find it.

Of course, the counter-argument to that is -- how much can you change it before it isn't tarot anymore?

I'm not sure what I think of the "new symbolism" of some decks. I think its great that people are being inspired by the tradition of tarot to create their own unique forms, but conversely, there's still a part of me that likes the purity of the "pivotal" decks (whatever those are).

Personally speaking, I like decks that have mostly traditional symbolism. I tried a few decks that were different, like the New Orleans Voodoo for instance, and always found myself coming back to the old standards. I really appreciate the uniqueness and creativity of some of the new systems, but they just aren't for me.

Alamaris said:

Of course, the counter-argument to that is -- how much can you change it before it isn't tarot anymore?

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Here we get into what exactly is considered a Tarot. The TdM is a Tarot. It doesn't have scenes on its pip cards. Why does the pip arrangement of ten swords mean something like "ruin"? What's the basis for that? There is none, other than somebody, long ago, decided it had a negative connotation.

My opinion is that Tarot should be defined as any kind of deck someone could use to play the game Tarot. Other than that...the sky is the limit.

Alamaris said:

Of course, the counter-argument to that is -- how much can you change it before it isn't tarot anymore?

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Maybe what Almaris means is "traditional RWS" interpretation of tarot. I think we must remember that tarot was tarot long before RWS symbolism was attached to it.

Even today, I have RWS based decks that have a card here and there that make me sit up and say, hmmmm. . .

The Buckland Romani for example:

3 of Koros (Cups). . .traditional RWS interpretation of that card is enjoying the company of friends, get-togethers, etc. This 3 of Cups shows one of the friends sidelined and trying to get into the action of the tea party.

9 of Chivs (Swords). . . typical seen and described as the dark night of the soul. . .admittedly, our man doesn't look particularly joyful, but he's not sleeping and looks to me to be incredibly focused. . .in deep thought.

Then there are pagan decks, again using RWS interpretations, but having quite a different one for the card occupying position 15, reserved for that Christian-based, nasty old devil. For illustration, I attached the Horned One from the Llewellyn deck.

Alamaris said:

Of course, the counter-argument to that is -- how much can you change it before it isn't tarot anymore?

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that IS an interesting point - that's why i tend not to like to use oracle decks, because i'm still learning tarot and i feel their format doesn't fit as easily into the structure of that particular system. i don't feel completely at sea with oracles, it's just that at this point i prefer to have a framework (cups as heart, swords as mind, etc.) as a starting point and i haven't yet broken ground in my head for oracle frameworks, whereas my tarot framework is getting bigger and more solid all the time.

that said, sometimes i do a purely intuitive reading where i don't care what the fours generally represent and just look at the pretty pictures and listen to the voice in my head. lots of people use tarot this way much more frequently than i do. are they still reading tarot? sure. there are majors, there are four court cards, four suits. even decks that present some aspects differently or as a sunnier or darker worldview overall rarely deviate wildly from the underlying concept of tarot as we know it. they're recognizable. for me, i don't think the innovation of playing around with the impact of specific cards (or even tweaking the feel of a deck as a whole) means we should abandon what we know of the tarot to read them... or that it won't benefit us more to HAVE a good, basic knowledge to work from than to read those decks as an entirely different animal. i think ignoring traditional meanings may do those decks a kind of disservice and make them harder to truly appreciate. after all, isn't knowing what the 10S generally "means" what makes us sit up and take notice of a happy 10S?

to me, it's like a legendary improvisational jazz artist or a super-talented author... they know the basics cold, so when they play with those rules it inspires rather than confuses. they're making curliques in the music or the words. but they have the groundwork.

(great hairy rasputin, can we choose a "teal deer" icon for our posts? sorry. hehe.)

i'm baaaaack...

speaking of expanding the framework:

sharpchick said:

9 of Chivs (Swords). . . typical seen and described as the dark night of the soul. . .

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sometimes, someone comes along and pops out the traditional meaning of a card in a way i can really sink my teeth into. yeah, i knew what this card was about, but had never heard it said quite this way. it's succinct and to the point but with a lot of personal and cultural meaning packed into the phrase. that really resonates with me - thank you! i have more traditional framework now!

but it also helps me grok the alternate interpretation in the deck you're referring to... most of my personal dark nights have involved a certain masochistic overthinking, but that's sometimes been my saving grace as well. all those varying interpretations dovetail beautifully for me just from sharpchick using that one phrase, and i can see whole new facets of the card.

curliques!