Guidance or divination - or both?

Scion said:

To be blunt, I'm not a fan of "psychologized" Tarot and though I know there's power in establishing a targeted question before reading, I feel like it verges on quickie pseudo-counseling more than divination. (e.g. the shrink cliché How does that make you feel?) This mirrors my beef about readers who make querents read for themselves. It smacks of Rorschasch psychologizing, NOT divination.
Scion

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Since I read this, which I humbly allow myself to qoute, in another thread http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=99103&page, about the querent's question, I've been speculating about the difference between using tarot for guidance or for diviation, or if there really is that big a difference between them, or if that difference perhaps even makes them mutually exclusive as reading styles or approaches?

What do you guys think? And how do you use tarot - for guidance or for divination - or for both?

Actually it hit me hard, since I think I'm very much using tarot for what I prefer to call guidance, but which does resemble what is here by Scion called "psychologized" Tarot. Maybe that isn't that strange since I'm very interesting in the jungian symbolical archetypical stuff, that can be related to tarot. Also I have been commended for letting the querent have some space, participating in reading the cards.

It isn't that I had had that many querents, but I hope I'll get more and thereby get more experience. I'm not a therapist, and therefore I can't offer tarot readings with counselling (allthough I hope to obtain a degree in jungian analytical therapy, some day).

So to me there will be a lot of ethical considerations to deal with, in finding my reading style. Considerations I certainly will not go about lightly, escecially if I'm going to offer tarot for guidance.

It should also be noticed, that since I have not that much experience, I have not tried to have the question after the reading, an experience I find quite intriguing.

(Hmm maybe i should simply join the readings exchange forum for a start for practising).

So while I'm not exactly "there" yet, I still wonder about such questions, turning to you for inputs.

Yours truly,

Gazel

I'm not sure on this one.

Part of me says, guidance. I don't like doing divination because I'm not sure I believe that the future can be seen beforehand. To use the example of Jung, I suppose with the universal unconsciousness something like that is entirely possible, but I'm still a tad dubious. But I feel badly sometimes when giving guidance, because I'm not sure if its the thing they should be doing -- its just what the cards advise me to say. I'm not a counselor or a therapist (yet; I'm going to college to be trained as one in the near future) and sometimes I wonder if I'm doing the wrong thing by using the tarot as a psychological tool, or for insight instead of fortune telling.

Can divinatory tools like tarot help you read the future? If not, should it be used for therapy? Its a question to ponder for when I'm fully certified and can answer more critically. And when I have more practice under my belt...so far, I haven't been privy to any wondrously mind-blowing readings, whether for guidance or divination, so I'm undecided.

Personally, I think knowing the future is usless if you dont know what to do about it.

I've never had a reading that lacked some kind of "advice" or "guidance" card or position ever work. But that's just my style. Otherwise any kind of news would hit way too hard if I couldnt give myself a loop hole that let me think I had some personal power on my end.

Both - and many more.

I use tarot for everything i feel like. Divination, fortune-telling, guidance, psychological help, poker games...whatever floats my boat. I don't see why we should choose one over another and stick to it until we die. If tarot offers us so many ways to use it, then lets try them.

I deslike a bit that everyone mentions Jung when talking about tarot, as if he was the great authority on the subject (i'm talking about TAROT, not dismissing Jung's great contribution to the psychology). You can see Tarot from an Jungian point of view, but when someone created Tarot during (more or less) the 15th century, they certainly didn't think about Jung or Freud because, hummm, these guys weren't even born yet maybe? SO i think some people consider ONLY the psycholigcal approach as the 'valid' one, and that kinda underrates all the other ways of using tarot.
Same with people who preach that Tarot is meant only for inner guidance and never, EVER for fortune-telling, and yadda yadda. The hell it's not! Just admit you don't like it, it's fine, nobody is going to force you to read fortune.

You are free to use it in anyway you like, but it doesn't make the paths that you didn't choose invalid or anything. I believe that everyone should try all the ways, before choosing one...or deciding, like me, that they enjoy all of them. Including the poker one

Thanks to for your answers so far.

I came to think that maybe I'm putting up a false dichtonomy. Maybe there is'nt really any need to choose between guidance and divination (or fortunetelling - actually I prefer divination for both) and maybe the tarot are offerering us guidance also when we ask about the future or vice versa - Sometimes the cards give us something other, than we think we should have, or tell us something else than what we asked for, (if you know what I mean).

Still. It is interesting to hear about your approaches and thoughts about this.

Marina said:

Both - and many more.

I don't see why we should choose one over another and stick to it until we die. If tarot offers us so many ways to use it, then lets try them.

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Yes.

I deslike a bit that everyone mentions Jung when talking about tarot, as if he was the great authority on the subject (i'm talking about TAROT, not dismissing Jung's great contribution to the psychology). You can see Tarot from an Jungian point of view, but when someone created Tarot during (more or less) the 15th century, they certainly didn't think about Jung or Freud because, hummm, these guys weren't even born yet maybe? SO i think some people consider ONLY the psycholigcal approach as the 'valid' one, and that kinda underrates all the other ways of using tarot

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I'm not even sure Jung wrote or said that much about tarot, but he said a lot about symbols and subjects like that, which I personally find extremely fruitful for understanding and learning the tarot, and sort of was my way into it, or maybe tarot was my way into that. Actually I find it hard to pinpoint now.

Same with people who preach that Tarot is meant only for inner guidance and never, EVER for fortune-telling, and yadda yadda. The hell it's not! Just admit you don't like it, it's fine, nobody is going to force you to read fortune.

You are free to use it in anyway you like, but it doesn't make the paths that you didn't choose invalid or anything. I believe that everyone should try all the ways, before choosing one...or deciding, like me, that they enjoy all of them. Including the poker one

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I see what you mean, and theoretically i agree, but practically for my own part, I'm not sure that I can do other than stick my nose in the trail on this particular path I'm on and see where it leads me. Sometimes one gets surprised.

At the time being, actually I'm trying to hold my self back and not to decide anything or go anywhere, just being where I'm now. And then some questions inevitably come to my mind ... just can't help it ;o)

Gazel.

Gazel said:

I'm not even sure Jung wrote or said that much about tarot, but he said a lot about symbols and subjects like that, which I personally find extremely fruitful for understanding and learning the tarot, and sort of was my way into it, or maybe tarot was my way into that. Actually I find it hard to pinpoint now.

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I think he didn't. I never found any book of his talking about tarot - he did talk baout ARCHTYPES and those are present, in a particular way, in the tarot decks. Because they are presente in ourselves, our world, our lives. So i'm nsaying Jung and tarot have nothing to do, or that tarot and psychology don't match - they do, but it's not the only way. I think the more different ways you can 'learn' the tarot, the richest yoru learning will be. But you always have to choose the path that makes sense to you, makes you comfortable

Gazel said:

I see what you mean, and theoretically i agree, but practically for my own part, I'm not sure that I can do other than stick my nose in the trail on this particular path I'm on and see where it leads me. Sometimes one gets surprised.

At the time being, actually I'm trying to hold my self back and not to decide anything or go anywhere, just being where I'm now. And then some questions inevitably come to my mind ... just can't help it ;o)

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You gotta do what makes you feel good. Like i said, i like telling fortune using the tarot, but if you'd rather not, then don't. It won't hinder you or anything. It's like saying one is spiritually underdeveloped because he hasn't tried every religion in the world. Not everything will butter your biscuit. lol .

But if you are unsure, if you think i'd like to try both, just try. You can always say 'nop, don't work for me'. You don't need to chase your tarot reading path like Tom chases Jerry, just be open to the possibilities, soon you'll be innerly sorting the wheat from the chaff.


I wish you good luck in your journey

Marina said:

I wish you good luck in your journey

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Thanx ;o)

The one about Tom and Jerry really made my laugh ;o)

sleepingcat said:

Personally, I think knowing the future is usless if you dont know what to do about it.

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I have to agree with you there.

I've never had a reading that lacked some kind of "advice" or "guidance" card or position ever work. But that's just my style. Otherwise any kind of news would hit way too hard if I couldnt give myself a loop hole that let me think I had some personal power on my end.

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Hmmm...

Well, sleepingcat - I don't use "advice" or "guidance" cards, much.

I might take up doing it more.

*



My philosophy is that our Fate is never really sealed. Therefore what the cards give us is a snapshot in time.

In practice, what this means to me is "this is the likely outcome based on the situation as it stands right at this very moment".

I do generally take greater notice of the Major Arcana in reading as things that are more "Fate", I suppose. The hand of g_d, or things that may be beyond our control/phases on our path that we must deal with as best we can, ect.

But the other aspects?

Sometimes warnings, and in that way less divinatory -- more guidance.

I have gotten several personal readings lately that told me that school is really going to turn out badly for me this semester, due to my own lack of persistence in the here-and-now.

Now I could take that and say, "Oh well, guess I'm just going to drop it."

Or I could take that as guidance and fight my own tendency to procrastinate, not apply myself, ect.

Think I'll stand up and fight. It's good to be aware that things will blow if I don't apply myself. Just the boot on my butt that I needed!

Btw, let you know how this turns out come August - when I get out of school!



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The quality of the time

Discordia said:

My philosophy is that our Fate is never really sealed. Therefore what the cards give us is a snapshot in time.

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Hello Discordia.
I tend to agree with you on this.
I think the cards are telling us in a symbolic language about the aspects, possibilities, qualities etc. of this particular moment in time in regard to the theme/question, that we seek to answer or understand by reading the cards.

I like the idea of the cards answering the question: "What time is it" not in regard to the quantity (as "it's eleven o'clock"), but the quality of the time.
It's a Moon time or a Lovers time or a Ace of Pentacles time.

This idea I have from the from to the book Total I Ching by Stephen Karcher

Gazel.

Divination is guidance, but not of the psychological kind. It's far more practical. It is used widely in most areas of the world - and there is no way that in Africa or China querents would take the "how does the card make you feel" approach at all kindly. They consult a diviner for guidance in practical matters of their current life - which might include (in Africa, for instance) spiritual components ("the Ancestors advise you to pay more attention to their advice, and to look for a job in the capital")

But divination - and the best diviners - are subtle. Sometimes, the answer for the present and the future lies in the past, or in one's own psyche. When that happens, then they will speak of it, and give advice based on it, albeit not couched in Western psychological terms.

One thing a diviner won't do is have people make their own divination.


Personally, I am of the divination school. There are others. There's a whole movement in tarot attached to tarot reading as therapy, or making the querent read for herself. When done well, I'm sure these methods have value. I also think that all readers - including bare-knuckle fortune-tellers - need wisdom and psychological insight to read well. But all told, I remain attached to divination and its central purpose: practical and spiritual guidance.