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Splungeman
03-08-2008, 12:09
I will start by saying that my inentions here are not evil. I have had a lot of questions about Astrology that have nagged me over the years, which I confess has led me really to not really pay much attention to it. The more I encounter it though, the more I want to ask questions about it. I am a skeptic, I confess. I hope that as this thread progresses (if it progresses at all) you will bear with me and not be troubled.

I will start things off with the content of another thread and end with my latest response:

I suppose I can understand where you're coming from here. Classically humans have attributed the stars, moon, etc to the art of divination.

I wonder though...

What if you were to pull out your Tarot cards and start a reading...on a spaceship orbiting a star system light years away...or even on the surface of Pluto? If the mechanism of divination has to do with astrology, and Astrology is built entirely from the perspective of observing planets, stars, etc from the viewing perspective of Earth, what happens then once you leave Earth? Do you lose the ability to divine?.

I have no idea, nor do I think that it matters much. We live here.

Perhaps our children's children will find out - I imagine that shuffling on the space shuttle in zero gravity would be challenging, to say the least! And it isn't likely that humans will be living on Mars or the Moon to any great extent. Not to mention, if one was born on another planet, what would one's birthchart look like? Would the earth in your chart now signify what the planet you were born on (say, Mars) usually indicates in a chart? What about Mars' two moons: Phobos and Deimos? Would you have an excess of fear about you, and no sense of feelings, mother, warmth and all the other things that our moon usually indicates? Not to mention, how would you progress the chart - and what would happen if you moved to earth? Rather than calling astrology/divination into question, I think that it rather begs the question - how much of our human-ness is bound up in living on the Earth?

Again, I don't think that it really matters much. We are here, after all.

Surely we won't be here forever. Our continued survival as a species may depend on our figuring out how to live elsewhere.

Question: How much is our human-ness bound up in Astrology?

Minderwiz
03-08-2008, 18:05
What you are really asking is 'how much of our humanity is bound up in the Earth?'

It's possible, at least in principle, to cast a horoscope for a birth on the surface of any planet, anywhere in the universe. It's therefore also possible to relocate a person's Geocentric solar return to any planet in the solar system. The problem is attributing meaning and interpretation to such a chart. Within the solar system it might, with experience, be possible to attribute meanings to the position of the Earth in such a chart. The meanings of the remaining planets would probably remain the same (Humanity bound up with the Earth) as I seen no good reason why these would change from a human perspective. Indeed, given the inertia in human development I would not be surprised if Geocentric charts are used after such a relocation.

Divination is the practice of interpreting symbols to provide meaning - 'to know the will of God'. All you need for this is humans, their location is not important. Indeed there is no reason why the symbols used on Rigel should not be the same symbols use on Earth - assuming the divination is done by humans.

My guess is any relocation outside the solar system would leventually lead to a new locl Astrology, as the need to divine is built into the human psyche. and someone is bound to ask what meaning local symbols might have.

As for Tarot, its meanings are also bound to human experience, not the physical planet so you could just as easily carry out a meaningful Tarot reading on a planet of Alpha Centuri

Bernice
03-08-2008, 22:57
Minderwiz: My guess is any relocation outside the solar system would leventually lead to a new local Astrology, as the need to divine is built into the human psyche. and someone is bound to ask what meaning local symbols might have.Agreed. But I think that local 'conditions' rather than 'symbols' would have to be assessed. Then our symbols would be re-allocated to suit the locality and/or new ones invented. I think we'd take our world-view mindset with us.

Earth and the Solar Sytem.
There have actually been mineral/metallic experiments carried out to assess/discover any reaction(s) with the movement of the planets in relation to Earth. They helped to refine the timing of Progressions, especially with the heavy planets. So if humans were to move to another planet within the Solar System I think similar tests would be made with 'local' minerals etc.
In fact 'astrology' would have to be given a reworking in order to relate to the 'new' planetry conditions. As Sravana says, "What about Mars' two moons: Phobos and Deimos?". There would undoubtedly be a different 'human' and liquid (water) response to the orbit of two moons - and not necesserily the same as is experienced here on Earth. It's likely the planets gravataional field would also be different. Much would have to be taken into consideration.... even the 'new' distance from the Sun.
Minderwiz: As for Tarot, its meanings are also bound to human experience, not the physical planet so you could just as easily carry out a meaningful Tarot reading on a planet of Alpha Centuri.Yes indeed. 100%!
Tarot isn't Astrology and vice versa, they are two different things altogether. But we have a habit of marrying different philosophies, magical traditions, and esoteric understandings, together.

Moving to another planet = very interesting speculation.

Bee

Splungeman
04-08-2008, 00:06
How do the stars and planets "influence" behavior?

SolSionnach
04-08-2008, 00:41
I should note that splungeman's original question was provoked my my mentioning how I had a reading 'explode' on me (!) when the moon was voc, and minutes away from becoming no-longer voc.
How do the stars and planets "influence" behavior?Vedic astrologers believe that the planets are actually spiritual beings/gods. One could argue quite persuasively that early on 'Western' astrologers did as well. That went into the dumpster when 'science' proved that Jupiter was a ball of gas, etc. As far as a 'scientific' explanation, we are no closer to that than a 'scientific' explanation as to why tarot works. From what I've heard, there is also a strain in science that indicates that free will may be a complete figment of our imagination (due to various characteristics of brain function), and of course, many scientists believe that our consciousness is chemical, and there is no soul. Shamans fly in the spirit world, scientists would say that it's all happening in their brains.

IOW, there's no way of knowing how the planets influence things.

Splungeman
04-08-2008, 01:23
That went into the dumpster when 'science' proved that Jupiter was a ball of gas, etc.

Why the quotation marks around science? Jupiter *is* a ball of gas. It is a huge, beautiful, massively impressive ball of gas that serves us a valuable function by sucking in asteroids and other space junk that would otherwise wander into our neighborhood. It's not a bad thing that science discovered exactly what Jupiter was. More knowledge never hurt anybody. Maybe one day we will be able to figure out how to harvest gas from Jupiter to power spaceships....not for a long while though.

As far as a 'scientific' explanation, we are no closer to that than a 'scientific' explanation as to why tarot works. From what I've heard, there is also a strain in science that indicates that free will may be a complete figment of our imagination (due to various characteristics of brain function), and of course, many scientists believe that our consciousness is chemical, and there is no soul. Shamans fly in the spirit world, scientists would say that it's all happening in their brains.

Whatever the explanation for Tarot, spirit world flights, etc...It may be that the explanation does ultimately lie within the mind. Just because a Shaman flies in the spirit world only within his own mind does not mean that the ultimate result is not effective or less valid. The mind and conciousness are still not yet completely understood.

IOW, there's no way of knowing how the planets influence things.

Isn't that was Astrology is? Isn't Astrology "knowing how the planets infuence things"?

Splungeman
04-08-2008, 01:40
IOW, there's no way of knowing how the planets influence things.

Isn't that was Astrology is? Isn't Astrology "knowing how the planets infuence things"?

I was just being difficult here. I know what you meant. But surely there are some theories. How does Mercury, when it appears to be moving retrograde, make communication go wonky? What does it do?

I have heard advice such as, "Don't buy a car or a house when Mercury is in retrograde! It's a bad time to do that because you could get swindled easily when Mercury is in retrograde!!"

My problem with this is that it doesn't seem to make sense logically. In that particular scenario, doesn't the salesman have a great day when Mercury is in retrograde. He ends up making more money, building his business, etc. SO if you are in sales, is Mercury in retrograde is a good thing?

SolSionnach
04-08-2008, 01:54
Why the quotation marks around science?
you wrote above:
How do the stars and planets "influence" behavior?
why the quotes around ''influence''?Jupiter *is* a ball of gas. It is a huge, beautiful, massively impressive ball of gas that serves us a valuable function by sucking in asteroids and other space junk that would otherwise wander into our neighborhood. It's not a bad thing that science discovered exactly what Jupiter was. More knowledge never hurt anybody. Maybe one day we will be able to figure out how to harvest gas from Jupiter to power spaceships....not for a long while though.Scientism is a religion which debunks anything that cannot be scientifically proved. IOW, tarot/astrology/shamanism etc. I love science, but despise scientism. You also mention wondering how we can 'harvest' that gas - oh please! To me that's the same attitude that sees the redwood forests of the west coast, with all the trees obscured by dollar signs. IOW, the worth of something is how useful it might be, rather than for the thing itself. Yes, knowledge is a good thing - but when we discovered that Jupiter was a ball of gas, 'we' collectively decided that it was no longer a god (see Vedic astrology, etc). Astrology was relegated to superstition by that 'knowledge'. Whatever the explanation for Tarot, spirit world flights, etc...It may be that the explanation does ultimately lie within the mind. Just because a Shaman flies in the spirit world only within his own mind does not mean that the ultimate result is not effective or less valid. The mind and conciousness are still not yet completely understood.

Isn't that was Astrology is? Isn't Astrology "knowing how the planets infuence things"?Okay, are you asking about the mechanism of said influence? That kind of question really irritates me, because it comes from a scientism point of view - and there is NO scientific answer as to the *mechanism*. It just is. As long as one holds a 20th century scientific bias, one can't see the forest for the dollar signs.
So, no, Astrology is not about 'knowing how the planets influence things'. It's about seeing how that influence manifests, not how it happens. I hope I'm making myself clear. I find your questions really irritating - and when I look at my chart with the current transits, I see that Mars is conjuncting my Mercury, just minutes before it's exact. Now *that's* irritating. :bugeyed:

Splungeman
04-08-2008, 03:19
you wrote above:why the quotes around ''influence''?Scientism is a religion which debunks anything that cannot be scientifically proved. IOW, tarot/astrology/shamanism etc. I love science, but despise scientism. You also mention wondering how we can 'harvest' that gas - oh please! To me that's the same attitude that sees the redwood forests of the west coast, with all the trees obscured by dollar signs. IOW, the worth of something is how useful it might be, rather than for the thing itself. Yes, knowledge is a good thing - but when we discovered that Jupiter was a ball of gas, 'we' collectively decided that it was no longer a god (see Vedic astrology, etc). Astrology was relegated to superstition by that 'knowledge'. Okay, are you asking about the mechanism of said influence? That kind of question really irritates me, because it comes from a scientism point of view - and there is NO scientific answer as to the *mechanism*. It just is. As long as one holds a 20th century scientific bias, one can't see the forest for the dollar signs.
So, no, Astrology is not about 'knowing how the planets influence things'. It's about seeing how that influence manifests, not how it happens. I hope I'm making myself clear. I find your questions really irritating - and when I look at my chart with the current transits, I see that Mars is conjuncting my Mercury, just minutes before it's exact. Now *that's* irritating. :bugeyed:

I am sorry my questions are irritating. :( They are just questions. How will I learn something if I am not permitted to ask questions, simply because they irriate the person I am asking?

I would direct your attention to my last post, where I clarify that I did understand what you were saying before. I was being intentionally difficult, out of playful discourse, and admitted as much. I won't do that again, as I see now that this is a topic that easily arouses emotion.

You don't have to answer the questions or even continue to follow this thread if you don't want to. You seem to be quite knowledgeable in the subject, however, so it would be a shame to lose your insight.

I'll restate my last questions and say again I am not trying to irritate. If anything the advantage to you here is that you can work of your answers to these kinds of questions should they arise again from others. It is my hope that these questions might provoke thought which in turn might provoke further learning.

How does Mercury, when it appears to be moving retrograde, make communication go wonky? What does it do?

I have heard advice such as, "Don't buy a car or a house when Mercury is in retrograde! It's a bad time to do that because you could get swindled easily when Mercury is in retrograde!!"

My problem with this is that it doesn't seem to make sense logically. In that particular scenario, doesn't the salesman have a great day when Mercury is in retrograde. He ends up making more money, building his business, etc. SO if you are in sales, is Mercury in retrograde is a good thing?

In addition...are there any theories about how the planets influence behavior? Gravity?

Minderwiz
04-08-2008, 05:42
Yes, you are quite entitled to ask that question and I fully accept that you do so in an attitude of polite enquiry. The problem is that Astrology has existed for over 3000 years on 5 coninents, so there are a myriad of suggestions.

As Nicholas Campion states in his volume 'The Dawn of Astrology';

'it depends on rationales as various as divine intervention, celestial inflence or the notion of the sky as a script to be read for signs . It functions through horoscopes, calendars, talismans, and purification rituals. It can claim the future is entirely knowable or essentially unknowable, that the world is predetermined or open to manipulation. It can function through divination...or the correlation of terrestial events with celestial patterns. It may emphasise the inner or the outer, either one's character or the events in one's life, and can be applied to ultimate spiritual truths - the ascent of the soul to the stars - or the trivia of domestic life, runaway slaves or lost treasure.'

I'm sorry to quote extensively but in a real sense it shows that the answer depends on which culture and which period you are talking about. It also suggests that an answer for one particular culture at one particular era is not an adeqaute answer to the question you pose.

Many modern astrologers, in so far as they try to explain the 'how' tend to try to do so in scientific terms. By this I mean that they advance answers which in principle could be tested empirically and theories created.

Personally, and this is a personal view, this is misguided. There is a divine dimension (in the broadest sense) to Astrology and this cannot by definition be reduced to empirical analysis (though this plays a role). It is the interaction of Astrologer and the symbols, whether these are general (such as the Sun) or specific (such as the Sun in Leo ruling the tenth house and trine Jupiter) that is important' and which produces meaningful results.

I don't think that a scientific approach is ultimately productive but to someone who demands 'scientific proof' (and anyone who knows their scientific method knows that science can never prove anything) this answer is never going to be convincing.

Now there are many astrologers who would not agree with my personal statement. In a real sense you pay your money and you take your choice.

Bernice
04-08-2008, 05:50
It could be said that Astrology is both a Science and an Art. Not one or the other, but both. Now add in the various cultural and personal approaches.

Minderwiz quotes Nick Campion. Very good quotation. Astrology 'works' even when people use different outlooks, viewpoints, methods. Bump.

Bee

Minderwiz
04-08-2008, 06:43
Yes, I agree. In the last section of my previous post I was referring to the modern use of the word 'science' to equate with the hypothetico-deductive model of Karl Popper. Astrology is a science in the original meaning of the word - the practice of a discipline with its own rules. Campion actually says that he also views science as a view of the world primarily governed by natural processes rather than divine intervention.

My view is that the Astrologer is a vital factor in this process. The process whereby the symbols take on meaning, whether through intuition, innate faculties, or even God given faculties is something that we can take different views on. Notice that in this use of the word 'science' there is not necessarily a complete division of 'science' from 'religion'. It merely requires that the world is not subject to the random whims of gods but that there is a Cosmos - an ordered and predictable world.

Bernice
04-08-2008, 06:58
Miderwiz:...It merely requires that the world is not subject to the random whims of gods but that there is a Cosmos - an ordered and predictable world.Ha ha. I gotta laugh because Einstein withdrew his final theory as it didn't accord with his personal view that the universe was 'ordered' (by God). Hence = Chaos! But a uniform chaos.

However chuckling aside, there is a universal Cause and Effect. And so we have a measure of predictability. Relative of course :). And astrology can 'plug' into this in a universal way, unlike the tarot which is somewhat limited to the (RWS - if one uses them) meanings ascribed to each card, and the scope of the reader.

Bee :)

SolSionnach
04-08-2008, 08:19
I was just being difficult here. I know what you meant. But surely there are some theories. How does Mercury, when it appears to be moving retrograde, make communication go wonky? What does it do?
:::snip:::
Actually, Splungeman, I have no idea *how* this happens. I do know that given Merc's rulership of electronics and especially communication that it makes sense within the framework of astrology. But I don't know how it works.

SolSionnach
04-08-2008, 08:27
I am sorry my questions are irritating. :( They are just questions. How will I learn something if I am not permitted to ask questions, simply because they irriate the person I am asking?
Of course you can ask questions. But if you're being intentionally difficult, some folks will pick up on it, as I did, and react badly.
I would direct your attention to my last post, where I clarify that I did understand what you were saying before. I was being intentionally difficult, out of playful discourse, and admitted as much. I won't do that again, as I see now that this is a topic that easily arouses emotion.
I don't know how long you've been online, so forgive my presumption, but smilicons go a long way to change a seemingly-sarcastic post to a playful one... ;)
You don't have to answer the questions or even continue to follow this thread if you don't want to. You seem to be quite knowledgeable in the subject, however, so it would be a shame to lose your insight.
Thanks, but I don't consider myself knowledgeable, except as a layperson. I do know a thing or two, but have a hard time synthesizing what I know into an astrological reading.
I'll restate my last questions and say again I am not trying to irritate. If anything the advantage to you here is that you can work of your answers to these kinds of questions should they arise again from others. It is my hope that these questions might provoke thought which in turn might provoke further learning.

In addition...are there any theories about how the planets influence behavior? Gravity?
There are lots of theories, and I guess I'm in the place of not caring much about that, so I'll leave it to others to answer. I've seen gravity debunked as the gravitational pull between me and my dog (who is about 4 1/2 feet away from me) is much much stronger than the gravitational pull from Pluto. That being said, I've survived major Pluto transits in my lifetime, and I do feel them!

Sorry for being so irritable. If you go to the "TdM for beginners" thread you'll see me go off on Umbrae, as well. I'm having a Mars transit (I really feel those, too!), which is leaving me rather feisty - to say the least. I'm sorry that I jumped on you. Friends? ;) ;) :P

SolSionnach
04-08-2008, 08:30
:::snip:::
Many modern astrologers, in so far as they try to explain the 'how' tend to try to do so in scientific terms. By this I mean that they advance answers which in principle could be tested empirically and theories created.

Personally, and this is a personal view, this is misguided.
Yes yes yes yes YES. This is why I was so ill-disposed to the question in the first place. There is a divine dimension (in the broadest sense) to Astrology and this cannot by definition be reduced to empirical analysis (though this plays a role). It is the interaction of Astrologer and the symbols, whether these are general (such as the Sun) or specific (such as the Sun in Leo ruling the tenth house and trine Jupiter) that is important' and which produces meaningful results.

I don't think that a scientific approach is ultimately productive but to someone who demands 'scientific proof' (and anyone who knows their scientific method knows that science can never prove anything) this answer is never going to be convincing.

Now there are many astrologers who would not agree with my personal statement. In a real sense you pay your money and you take your choice.Well, I think you hit it out of the park, fwiw.

Splungeman
04-08-2008, 12:15
What happens when a new planet is discovered?

Splungeman
04-08-2008, 16:50
Of course you can ask questions. But if you're being intentionally difficult, some folks will pick up on it, as I did, and react badly. I don't know how long you've been online, so forgive my presumption, but smilicons go a long way to change a seemingly-sarcastic post to a playful one... ;) Thanks, but I don't consider myself knowledgeable, except as a layperson. I do know a thing or two, but have a hard time synthesizing what I know into an astrological reading.
There are lots of theories, and I guess I'm in the place of not caring much about that, so I'll leave it to others to answer. I've seen gravity debunked as the gravitational pull between me and my dog (who is about 4 1/2 feet away from me) is much much stronger than the gravitational pull from Pluto. That being said, I've survived major Pluto transits in my lifetime, and I do feel them!

Sorry for being so irritable. If you go to the "TdM for beginners" thread you'll see me go off on Umbrae, as well. I'm having a Mars transit (I really feel those, too!), which is leaving me rather feisty - to say the least. I'm sorry that I jumped on you. Friends? ;) ;) :P

Friends....? FRIENDS....?! BWA HA HA HA!!! Oh no....not us!! From this day forward we shall be arch-rivals!! You can call me Dr. Skeptic! You will squirm with anxiety as I quote from the likes of James Randi, Penn Jillette, Richard Dawkins, Carl Sagan, and others even more hideously skeptical!! And as I summon these denizens of scientific thought from the bowels of the laboratories, magic shows, and yes...even the GRAVE...I shall laugh fiendishly and calculate on my Texas Instruments calculator the distance fleas leap on the back of my cat!!!! BWA HA HA HA HAAAAAA!!

:) (See...I do use emoticons)

But seriously...

I will not admit to being intentionally difficult or abrasive. I understand that my questions may be perceived as inflammatory, but that is not the intention behind them. It's just like my asking in Sunday school class why parts of the Bible contradict each other if it's supposed to be a perfect book written by God? The question was not received well and was given an unsatisfactory answer that was more a condemnation of me than a real answer. It was as if the teacher had never been asked that before and simply dealt with me by condemning me as a troublemaker. I found it a legitimate question that an expert should be able to answer, or at least give a good reason why they didn't know. Later on I had the audacity to compare Jesus to a Zen monk and was asked not to come back.

I understand that skeptical questions can irritate. But can't they also provoke further thought? Maybe there is something about astrology that can be simplified or understood better by asking hard questions. I understand as well that some may not want to go down that road for whatever reason, and I respect that. I just hope there will be somebody who will bear with me...

Thus far, my question about what the planets actually DO has been answered with (to simplify) "We don't know what they do...we can't know what they do." I can accept that. At least it's a better answer than I got from that darn Sunday school teacher about the Bible.

My other questions are still out there...the one regarding Mercury in retrograde being a good thing for salespeople and the one about new planets. What about those?

Minderwiz
04-08-2008, 19:02
What happens when a new planet is discovered?

Modern Western Astrologers rush to put an interpretation on it and to try and get hold of epemerides. The 'planet' then turns out to be something else. :)

There is no reason why new symbols have to be added to a symbolic language. Personally I don't use many of the entities that have been discovered since the invention of the telescope. I use Uranus and Neptune very sparingly if at all and Pluto is some evidence for the point above. Generally, for planets, if I can't see it then I don't use it.

Now again that's a very personal point of view but is in line with both traditional Astrology in the West and Vedic Astrology. For me, there are already sufficient symbols to work with, I don't need to have new ones, of doubtful (if any) meaning, forced on to me.

If others do wish to incorporate such objects into their symbolic langage then that is their choice. As I said in a previous post Astrology has many different expressions.

SolSionnach
05-08-2008, 00:38
I will not admit to being intentionally difficult or abrasive.
I quote you, in post #7:
I was just being difficult here. I know what you meant.

I'm done with this conversation.

Splungeman
05-08-2008, 06:33
I quote you, in post #7:

I'm done with this conversation.

You got me there.

I mean to say that I'm not trying to make anyone mad with the questions. It seems though that I have. My comment about being intentionally difficult was referring to the last comment I had made, not about the questions. Poor wording jotted off in a hurry, I confess. I'm very sorry to have offended. I didn't think anything I said would have been construed as a personal attack that would drive someone away in anger.

Frankly, I had no idea this issue was quite so personal.

Hooked on TdM
05-08-2008, 06:43
How do the stars and planets "influence" behavior?

I know nothing of astrology, however, how does the moon influence the tides and women's menses (and hence their emotions?) How about the sun? If we don't get enough of it (Vitiam B? D? can't remember which one) we can become depressed and even ill.. We even have SAD that people need special lights for! That is proven and isn't it the same thing?

Hooked

Splungeman
05-08-2008, 06:50
Modern Western Astrologers rush to put an interpretation on it and to try and get hold of epemerides. The 'planet' then turns out to be something else. :)

There is no reason why new symbols have to be added to a symbolic language. Personally I don't use many of the entities that have been discovered since the invention of the telescope. I use Uranus and Neptune very sparingly if at all and Pluto is some evidence for the point above. Generally, for planets, if I can't see it then I don't use it.

Now again that's a very personal point of view but is in line with both traditional Astrology in the West and Vedic Astrology. For me, there are already sufficient symbols to work with, I don't need to have new ones, of doubtful (if any) meaning, forced on to me.

If others do wish to incorporate such objects into their symbolic langage then that is their choice. As I said in a previous post Astrology has many different expressions.

Just a thought. But when we use Tarot cards, we look at an image and use that image to get impressions of fate, past, present, etc. Could astrology be similar? When the planets align in certain ways it creates an image that opens up our psychic ability similar to the way an image on a Tarot card does? For example, the image in the sky of Mercury appearing to be moving retrograde (though only an optical illusion) would equate to a Tarot card or oracle card that pictures...I don't know...say an arguing couple. That is to say would it inspire that feeling? Is astrology divination more about images in the sky influencing us subconsciously when we see them or more about actual heavenly bodies exerting some kind of influence upon us by forces unknown?

Splungeman
05-08-2008, 06:54
I know nothing of astrology, however, how does the moon influence the tides and women's menses (and hence their emotions?) How about the sun? If we don't get enough of it (Vitiam B? D? can't remember which one) we can become depressed and even ill.. We even have SAD that people need special lights for! That is proven and isn't it the same thing?

Hooked

I don't know about menses but I do know as a nurse that more women seem to have babies during full moons. Nobody really knows why. My theory is that you are more apt to take a walk on a full moon when things are more brightly lit and beautiful, and sometimes walking for a while can begin labor.

I know more crimes are also committed during full moons, though this also may have to do with visibility. It's easier to break into someone's house at night when you can see better.

Who knows.

Minderwiz
05-08-2008, 07:16
There may be some who can look at a chart and have a psychic insight. However virtually all the Astrologers that I know and every authority that I hav e read, past and present, learn Astrology as a discipline of rules and their conclusions are based on analysis.

Indeed the Astrological Association of Great Britain has argued that Astrology has nothing to do with magic, psychic phenomena, or fortune telling, when it has challenged broadcasting rules that treat it in the same category as the former. They also argue that anyone with the right training can be an Astrologer, in the same way that you could be taught to be a lawyer or a doctor.

Splungeman
05-08-2008, 11:20
Why are the Greek/ Roman pantheon constellations so prominent in astrology? Surely other cultures had different names for the constellations? How important are the names of the planets, constellations, and stars to the meanings behind their arrangement?

Hooked on TdM
05-08-2008, 12:43
I don't know about menses but I do know as a nurse that more women seem to have babies during full moons. Nobody really knows why. My theory is that you are more apt to take a walk on a full moon when things are more brightly lit and beautiful, and sometimes walking for a while can begin labor.

I know more crimes are also committed during full moons, though this also may have to do with visibility. It's easier to break into someone's house at night when you can see better.

Who knows.

Women's menses (28 day cycle?) go with the cycles of the moon sames as tides.. I don't know why but they do...

Only a complete idiot would go B&E'ing in the full moon because it's bright out! Everyone can see you! Less moon means better skulking around... lol

Splungeman
05-08-2008, 13:20
Women's menses (28 day cycle?) go with the cycles of the moon sames as tides.. I don't know why but they do...

Only a complete idiot would go B&E'ing in the full moon because it's bright out! Everyone can see you! Less moon means better skulking around... lol

True...Though criminals are not usually admired for their intelligence. :P

Interesting point about the moon. I wouldn't know much about that obviously. Once I blundered into the Red Tent thread but didn't stick around long enough to learn anything. My wife doesn't discuss it much with me either. :)

Well anyway. Perhaps the moon does have some influence on physiology. It was present during our entire evolution as a species after all. I wonder if any studies have been done, not just on humans but other mammals as well. Curious. Very curious.

Hooked on TdM
05-08-2008, 13:38
True...Though criminals are not usually admired for their intelligence. :P

Interesting point about the moon. I wouldn't know much about that obviously. Once I blundered into the Red Tent thread but didn't stick around long enough to learn anything. My wife doesn't discuss it much with me either. :)

Well anyway. Perhaps the moon does have some influence on physiology. It was present during our entire evolution as a species after all. I wonder if any studies have been done, not just on humans but other mammals as well. Curious. Very curious.


Hehe you got me there, being a criminal in and of itself is stupidity at it's finest! lol

I actually shouldn't talk either.. HEHE I'm an it due to a hysterectomy at the tender age of 23. So it's not like I'd notice anymore anyways.. What the hell is a red tent (do I want to know?)

You have me curious too... As that would back up at least some theory of Astrology (but don't quote me.. I do suck at this subject.)

Hooked

stefficus
05-08-2008, 14:01
i'm with you, splungebob. ;) how'm i ever supposed to tease things out and get to the really interesting heart of the matter if i don't devil's advocate all over creation? how do i clarify things if people won't discuss them with me and point out problematic parts of my system? how'm i supposed to know when i've crossed the line from "discussion" to "arguement" if I'M still having fun and being genuinely interested?

actually, i find when that happens, people tell me...

it happens to me a lot. *grin*

you're clearly not a Skeptic. some of what you say may be skeptical, but that isn't the same thing, and that's not merely a matter of semantics. for some of us, these kinds of questions are a learning technique, not an attack. we just... wanna know.

this whole thread has been highly entertaining, AND informative. it's got a lot to think about in it... but no one has yet said anything about what it sounds like you're really wanting to explore. not know once and for all!!!1!, not debunk, not ridicule... just... look at the bones of it.

maybe astrology isn't about the mechanics of the way the planets influence us, but rather about the correlations that astrologers the world over, through years of necessity, observed about human behavior. not the symbols imposing on people, but explaining tendencies IN people and being associated with certain planets, stars, etc. maybe it's heading down the wrong path to discuss whether jupiter is a god or a ball of gas... it demonstrably IS, in fact, a ball of gas, but we associate spirit with everything from trees to the earth herself, so why not a quasi-divine being generated by/associated with jupiter? it's just that it isn't JUST a god to us anymore, and that's makes it no less fascinating from an astrological point of view. maybe the influence isn't gravitational, but magnetic or the deflection/attraction of solar winds and radiation or... or maybe it's the key to the actual mechanism of things like the collective subconscious and THAT'S how the planets influence human behavior but we won't know more about it until the scientists uncover some of the secrets of hyperspace.... or...

i really have no idea. i'm not an astrologer. but i see what you were getting at, and i'd love for someone to bestow some insight about that or just throw out some theories, but from a viewpoint of having actually studied astrology.

troublemaker. =p

Minderwiz
05-08-2008, 18:59
staficus


i really have no idea. i'm not an astrologer. but i see what you were getting at, and i'd love for someone to bestow some insight about that or just throw out some theories, but from a viewpoint of having actually studied astrology.

troublemaker. =p

The short answer is that unless you have a basic working knowledge of what you're talking about we don't get anything but an endless series of 'Why' or 'How' or 'What' questions. This is a forum not a free Astrology course and there's no obligation on members to respond to idle curiousity . If you want to have a constructive discussion you need to play you're role and deliver serious input.

I'd suggest that you read some books dealing with the philosophy and methods of Western Astrology - Jean Baptiste Morin's Astrologica Gallica would be an appropriate start, or failing that 'Astrology, Science ande Culture' by Roy Willis and Patrick Curry. Then come back with some informed questions and we can have a real discussion of methods and philosophy. Unless you are prepared to make such an effort is it any wonder that you get the responses you mention?

Bernice
05-08-2008, 20:24
I find myself in a cleft-stick. Generally speaking I'm with Minderwiz re.Astrology. But I think this paticular portion of Staficuss' post is very relative to the thread....maybe astrology isn't about the mechanics of the way the planets influence us, but rather about the correlations that astrologers the world over, through years of necessity, observed about human behavior. Not the symbols imposing on people, but explaining tendencies IN people and being associated with certain planets, stars, etc. Maybe it's heading down the wrong path to discuss whether jupiter is a god or a ball of gas... it demonstrably IS, in fact, a ball of gas, but we associate spirit with everything from trees to the earth herself, so why not a quasi-divine being generated by/associated with jupiter? it's just that it isn't JUST a god to us anymore, and that's makes it no less fascinating from an astrological point of view.My bold type. Astrology encodes qualities, events & tendancies (and more) in a symbolic form.

The form/symbols that we use correlate with the known universe, the solar system planets in particular, and also the deep sky (fixed stars). Not all astrologers percieve planets as having a 'spirit' (John Dee might have done...), but all astrologers do use the symbolic natures of the planets.

Bee

Minderwiz
06-08-2008, 02:39
There are a whole range of possible answers to the question 'How does Astrology work'?' depending on culture and era. Which of these answers (if any) is correct is probably ultimately unknowable but may still be worth exploring. However to carry out that exploration requires some foundation knowledge.

Asking questions is an important element of learning but the learner also needs to invest time and effort in a kinesthetic or hands on approach. I won't make any satisfactory progress in learning Tarot if all I do is ask questions. I need to get hold of a Tarot deck and work with it - either in ways suggested by the answers to some of my early questions or through reading some recommended works, or simply seeing how I interact with it. I may even need to try two or more decks and see how I interact with them. As I use the cards and carry out suggested exercises, so new questions will arise and I will ask these, based on my limited experience and knowledge. The answers will consolidate my learning and take me on to the next round. I cannot explain how Tarot works, or why it works as an outside observer or questioner. The Socratic method only takes me so far.

The same applies to Astrology, but with knobs on. Even in Western Astrology an explanation that might seem to work for reading characters from natal charts, might have real difficulties with explaining how primary directions or secondary progressions work, let alone how Horary Astrology works. To deal with questions relating to how and why Astrology works in any satisfactory way requires the ability to handle these dimensions of Astrology, which in turn requires some knowledge of them in the first place.

My answer in the previous post mayhave seemed rather intemperate but it is sound. Willis and Curry have written an excellent book (OK it's mainly from a Western viewpoint and it demands some thought and effort) but it addresses issues raised in this thread (but by no means all). Reading, absorbing and trying out some of the ideas will result in progress produce further questions that will help build further knowledge and expertise and be ultimately more rewarding.

Read it, come back with questions and let's build on it.