Questions about Astrology

Splungeman

I will start by saying that my inentions here are not evil. I have had a lot of questions about Astrology that have nagged me over the years, which I confess has led me really to not really pay much attention to it. The more I encounter it though, the more I want to ask questions about it. I am a skeptic, I confess. I hope that as this thread progresses (if it progresses at all) you will bear with me and not be troubled.

I will start things off with the content of another thread and end with my latest response:

Splungeman said:
I suppose I can understand where you're coming from here. Classically humans have attributed the stars, moon, etc to the art of divination.

I wonder though...

What if you were to pull out your Tarot cards and start a reading...on a spaceship orbiting a star system light years away...or even on the surface of Pluto? If the mechanism of divination has to do with astrology, and Astrology is built entirely from the perspective of observing planets, stars, etc from the viewing perspective of Earth, what happens then once you leave Earth? Do you lose the ability to divine?.

sravana said:
I have no idea, nor do I think that it matters much. We live here.

Perhaps our children's children will find out - I imagine that shuffling on the space shuttle in zero gravity would be challenging, to say the least! And it isn't likely that humans will be living on Mars or the Moon to any great extent. Not to mention, if one was born on another planet, what would one's birthchart look like? Would the earth in your chart now signify what the planet you were born on (say, Mars) usually indicates in a chart? What about Mars' two moons: Phobos and Deimos? Would you have an excess of fear about you, and no sense of feelings, mother, warmth and all the other things that our moon usually indicates? Not to mention, how would you progress the chart - and what would happen if you moved to earth? Rather than calling astrology/divination into question, I think that it rather begs the question - how much of our human-ness is bound up in living on the Earth?

Again, I don't think that it really matters much. We are here, after all.

Surely we won't be here forever. Our continued survival as a species may depend on our figuring out how to live elsewhere.

Question: How much is our human-ness bound up in Astrology?
 

Minderwiz

What you are really asking is 'how much of our humanity is bound up in the Earth?'

It's possible, at least in principle, to cast a horoscope for a birth on the surface of any planet, anywhere in the universe. It's therefore also possible to relocate a person's Geocentric solar return to any planet in the solar system. The problem is attributing meaning and interpretation to such a chart. Within the solar system it might, with experience, be possible to attribute meanings to the position of the Earth in such a chart. The meanings of the remaining planets would probably remain the same (Humanity bound up with the Earth) as I seen no good reason why these would change from a human perspective. Indeed, given the inertia in human development I would not be surprised if Geocentric charts are used after such a relocation.

Divination is the practice of interpreting symbols to provide meaning - 'to know the will of God'. All you need for this is humans, their location is not important. Indeed there is no reason why the symbols used on Rigel should not be the same symbols use on Earth - assuming the divination is done by humans.

My guess is any relocation outside the solar system would leventually lead to a new locl Astrology, as the need to divine is built into the human psyche. and someone is bound to ask what meaning local symbols might have.

As for Tarot, its meanings are also bound to human experience, not the physical planet so you could just as easily carry out a meaningful Tarot reading on a planet of Alpha Centuri
 

Bernice

Minderwiz: My guess is any relocation outside the solar system would leventually lead to a new local Astrology, as the need to divine is built into the human psyche. and someone is bound to ask what meaning local symbols might have.
Agreed. But I think that local 'conditions' rather than 'symbols' would have to be assessed. Then our symbols would be re-allocated to suit the locality and/or new ones invented. I think we'd take our world-view mindset with us.

Earth and the Solar Sytem.
There have actually been mineral/metallic experiments carried out to assess/discover any reaction(s) with the movement of the planets in relation to Earth. They helped to refine the timing of Progressions, especially with the heavy planets. So if humans were to move to another planet within the Solar System I think similar tests would be made with 'local' minerals etc.
In fact 'astrology' would have to be given a reworking in order to relate to the 'new' planetry conditions. As Sravana says, "What about Mars' two moons: Phobos and Deimos?". There would undoubtedly be a different 'human' and liquid (water) response to the orbit of two moons - and not necesserily the same as is experienced here on Earth. It's likely the planets gravataional field would also be different. Much would have to be taken into consideration.... even the 'new' distance from the Sun.
Minderwiz: As for Tarot, its meanings are also bound to human experience, not the physical planet so you could just as easily carry out a meaningful Tarot reading on a planet of Alpha Centuri.
Yes indeed. 100%!
Tarot isn't Astrology and vice versa, they are two different things altogether. But we have a habit of marrying different philosophies, magical traditions, and esoteric understandings, together.

Moving to another planet = very interesting speculation.

Bee
 

Splungeman

How do the stars and planets "influence" behavior?
 

SolSionnach

I should note that splungeman's original question was provoked my my mentioning how I had a reading 'explode' on me (!) when the moon was voc, and minutes away from becoming no-longer voc.
Splungeman said:
How do the stars and planets "influence" behavior?
Vedic astrologers believe that the planets are actually spiritual beings/gods. One could argue quite persuasively that early on 'Western' astrologers did as well. That went into the dumpster when 'science' proved that Jupiter was a ball of gas, etc. As far as a 'scientific' explanation, we are no closer to that than a 'scientific' explanation as to why tarot works. From what I've heard, there is also a strain in science that indicates that free will may be a complete figment of our imagination (due to various characteristics of brain function), and of course, many scientists believe that our consciousness is chemical, and there is no soul. Shamans fly in the spirit world, scientists would say that it's all happening in their brains.

IOW, there's no way of knowing how the planets influence things.
 

Splungeman

sravana said:
That went into the dumpster when 'science' proved that Jupiter was a ball of gas, etc.

Why the quotation marks around science? Jupiter *is* a ball of gas. It is a huge, beautiful, massively impressive ball of gas that serves us a valuable function by sucking in asteroids and other space junk that would otherwise wander into our neighborhood. It's not a bad thing that science discovered exactly what Jupiter was. More knowledge never hurt anybody. Maybe one day we will be able to figure out how to harvest gas from Jupiter to power spaceships....not for a long while though.

sravana said:
As far as a 'scientific' explanation, we are no closer to that than a 'scientific' explanation as to why tarot works. From what I've heard, there is also a strain in science that indicates that free will may be a complete figment of our imagination (due to various characteristics of brain function), and of course, many scientists believe that our consciousness is chemical, and there is no soul. Shamans fly in the spirit world, scientists would say that it's all happening in their brains.

Whatever the explanation for Tarot, spirit world flights, etc...It may be that the explanation does ultimately lie within the mind. Just because a Shaman flies in the spirit world only within his own mind does not mean that the ultimate result is not effective or less valid. The mind and conciousness are still not yet completely understood.

sravana said:
IOW, there's no way of knowing how the planets influence things.

Isn't that was Astrology is? Isn't Astrology "knowing how the planets infuence things"?
 

Splungeman

sravana said:
IOW, there's no way of knowing how the planets influence things.

Splungeman said:
Isn't that was Astrology is? Isn't Astrology "knowing how the planets infuence things"?

I was just being difficult here. I know what you meant. But surely there are some theories. How does Mercury, when it appears to be moving retrograde, make communication go wonky? What does it do?

I have heard advice such as, "Don't buy a car or a house when Mercury is in retrograde! It's a bad time to do that because you could get swindled easily when Mercury is in retrograde!!"

My problem with this is that it doesn't seem to make sense logically. In that particular scenario, doesn't the salesman have a great day when Mercury is in retrograde. He ends up making more money, building his business, etc. SO if you are in sales, is Mercury in retrograde is a good thing?
 

SolSionnach

Splungeman said:
Why the quotation marks around science?
you wrote above:
Splungeman said:
How do the stars and planets "influence" behavior?
why the quotes around ''influence''?
Splungeman said:
Jupiter *is* a ball of gas. It is a huge, beautiful, massively impressive ball of gas that serves us a valuable function by sucking in asteroids and other space junk that would otherwise wander into our neighborhood. It's not a bad thing that science discovered exactly what Jupiter was. More knowledge never hurt anybody. Maybe one day we will be able to figure out how to harvest gas from Jupiter to power spaceships....not for a long while though.
Scientism is a religion which debunks anything that cannot be scientifically proved. IOW, tarot/astrology/shamanism etc. I love science, but despise scientism. You also mention wondering how we can 'harvest' that gas - oh please! To me that's the same attitude that sees the redwood forests of the west coast, with all the trees obscured by dollar signs. IOW, the worth of something is how useful it might be, rather than for the thing itself. Yes, knowledge is a good thing - but when we discovered that Jupiter was a ball of gas, 'we' collectively decided that it was no longer a god (see Vedic astrology, etc). Astrology was relegated to superstition by that 'knowledge'.
Splungeman said:
Whatever the explanation for Tarot, spirit world flights, etc...It may be that the explanation does ultimately lie within the mind. Just because a Shaman flies in the spirit world only within his own mind does not mean that the ultimate result is not effective or less valid. The mind and conciousness are still not yet completely understood.

Isn't that was Astrology is? Isn't Astrology "knowing how the planets infuence things"?
Okay, are you asking about the mechanism of said influence? That kind of question really irritates me, because it comes from a scientism point of view - and there is NO scientific answer as to the *mechanism*. It just is. As long as one holds a 20th century scientific bias, one can't see the forest for the dollar signs.
So, no, Astrology is not about 'knowing how the planets influence things'. It's about seeing how that influence manifests, not how it happens. I hope I'm making myself clear. I find your questions really irritating - and when I look at my chart with the current transits, I see that Mars is conjuncting my Mercury, just minutes before it's exact. Now *that's* irritating. :bugeyed:
 

Splungeman

sravana said:
you wrote above:why the quotes around ''influence''?Scientism is a religion which debunks anything that cannot be scientifically proved. IOW, tarot/astrology/shamanism etc. I love science, but despise scientism. You also mention wondering how we can 'harvest' that gas - oh please! To me that's the same attitude that sees the redwood forests of the west coast, with all the trees obscured by dollar signs. IOW, the worth of something is how useful it might be, rather than for the thing itself. Yes, knowledge is a good thing - but when we discovered that Jupiter was a ball of gas, 'we' collectively decided that it was no longer a god (see Vedic astrology, etc). Astrology was relegated to superstition by that 'knowledge'. Okay, are you asking about the mechanism of said influence? That kind of question really irritates me, because it comes from a scientism point of view - and there is NO scientific answer as to the *mechanism*. It just is. As long as one holds a 20th century scientific bias, one can't see the forest for the dollar signs.
So, no, Astrology is not about 'knowing how the planets influence things'. It's about seeing how that influence manifests, not how it happens. I hope I'm making myself clear. I find your questions really irritating - and when I look at my chart with the current transits, I see that Mars is conjuncting my Mercury, just minutes before it's exact. Now *that's* irritating. :bugeyed:

I am sorry my questions are irritating. :( They are just questions. How will I learn something if I am not permitted to ask questions, simply because they irriate the person I am asking?

I would direct your attention to my last post, where I clarify that I did understand what you were saying before. I was being intentionally difficult, out of playful discourse, and admitted as much. I won't do that again, as I see now that this is a topic that easily arouses emotion.

You don't have to answer the questions or even continue to follow this thread if you don't want to. You seem to be quite knowledgeable in the subject, however, so it would be a shame to lose your insight.

I'll restate my last questions and say again I am not trying to irritate. If anything the advantage to you here is that you can work of your answers to these kinds of questions should they arise again from others. It is my hope that these questions might provoke thought which in turn might provoke further learning.

Splungeman said:
How does Mercury, when it appears to be moving retrograde, make communication go wonky? What does it do?

I have heard advice such as, "Don't buy a car or a house when Mercury is in retrograde! It's a bad time to do that because you could get swindled easily when Mercury is in retrograde!!"

My problem with this is that it doesn't seem to make sense logically. In that particular scenario, doesn't the salesman have a great day when Mercury is in retrograde. He ends up making more money, building his business, etc. SO if you are in sales, is Mercury in retrograde is a good thing?

In addition...are there any theories about how the planets influence behavior? Gravity?
 

Minderwiz

Yes, you are quite entitled to ask that question and I fully accept that you do so in an attitude of polite enquiry. The problem is that Astrology has existed for over 3000 years on 5 coninents, so there are a myriad of suggestions.

As Nicholas Campion states in his volume 'The Dawn of Astrology';

'it depends on rationales as various as divine intervention, celestial inflence or the notion of the sky as a script to be read for signs . It functions through horoscopes, calendars, talismans, and purification rituals. It can claim the future is entirely knowable or essentially unknowable, that the world is predetermined or open to manipulation. It can function through divination...or the correlation of terrestial events with celestial patterns. It may emphasise the inner or the outer, either one's character or the events in one's life, and can be applied to ultimate spiritual truths - the ascent of the soul to the stars - or the trivia of domestic life, runaway slaves or lost treasure.'

I'm sorry to quote extensively but in a real sense it shows that the answer depends on which culture and which period you are talking about. It also suggests that an answer for one particular culture at one particular era is not an adeqaute answer to the question you pose.

Many modern astrologers, in so far as they try to explain the 'how' tend to try to do so in scientific terms. By this I mean that they advance answers which in principle could be tested empirically and theories created.

Personally, and this is a personal view, this is misguided. There is a divine dimension (in the broadest sense) to Astrology and this cannot by definition be reduced to empirical analysis (though this plays a role). It is the interaction of Astrologer and the symbols, whether these are general (such as the Sun) or specific (such as the Sun in Leo ruling the tenth house and trine Jupiter) that is important' and which produces meaningful results.

I don't think that a scientific approach is ultimately productive but to someone who demands 'scientific proof' (and anyone who knows their scientific method knows that science can never prove anything) this answer is never going to be convincing.

Now there are many astrologers who would not agree with my personal statement. In a real sense you pay your money and you take your choice.