I Ching

[KyrieSummer]

I enjoy reading the I Ching for divnation purposes as well as Tarot. I find it very accurate and insightful. How many of you have read the I Ching?

[joya250]

hiya Kyrie,

I've read parts of the I-Ching, though not cover-to-cover. It is very interesting, but somewhat confusing, as I found it hard to relate to my modern-day life. For a while I would throw the coins every other day or so, but I wasn't finding my readings too helpful.

[Susi]

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as german is my mother tongue, i work with the original very complexe book of richard wilhelm. i feel blessed to have his message in the most direct way and i appreciate a lot the i ching for divination.
it is true, joya, that consulting the iching on a daily basis may not be very helpful. i have found out that especially the changing lines help me to find my way through the near future, i throw the 3 coins once a week to have a kind of motto.
changing lines in the wind this time have been 2.4.6!
found an additional i ching thread here:
http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=90 !

[Fudugazi]

For me it is the best oracle there is - and not only oracle: philosophy, spirituality, guide and friend. When I am in turmoil, when I feel in the dark, I turn to the I-Ching, and it shows me the way, every time.

A note on translations: I use several excellent translations and compare them - into French, and into English. I also study the characters of the text, and their evolution from pictograms to ideograms. I don't use the Wilhelm much because my German isn't good enough, and the Cary translation is a translation of a translation! Besides, I think Wilhelm was too influenced by his background as a missionary. But he did the Western world a great service in bringing us the I-Ching, so for that alone, I praise him.

[JennyM]

I used the I Ching for years before I tried tarot cards. I still use it. It's amazing.

[Lillie]

Fudugazi.

What translation would you suggest for an english speaker?

I have the Wilhelm in english.
It's this huge door stopper of a book.

I also have a couple of others, but I would like your reccomendation, if you have one.

[Susi]

i ve the same question to you concerning french: is there an equally important translator in the french hemisphere? it would surely provide me some new views of the hexagrams. like previously written in postings of this thread i also started with i ging - not for predicting but as a consulting book of wiseness. it is only now, 15 yrs later, that i feel mature to analyze additionally the oracling character of the changing lines which give me some hints for future actions.

[Fudugazi]

The books I most rely on are:

In English - Stephen Karcher's Total I-Ching. Not the most elegant of translations, but very enriching. His analysis of the I-Ching as an oracle and a shamanic system is phenomenal. He's done away with a lot of the Confucian overlay. Discovering his book was a very exciting moment for me.

In French - Yi Jing, Livre des Changements, by Pierre Faure and Cyrille Javary, respectively a sinologist and an I-Ching scholar. That's a fat book published by Albin Michel. It is the clearest book I own on the I-Ching, very detailed, and it analyses the characters of the text, as well as the hexagrams. It's the book that moved me into a new place with the I-Ching. I have found, for instance, how much can be gained from the original meaning of some of the characters - in terms of interpretation and reflection (not only as an intellectual exercise, but a meditative one too). One thing I like about that book is that they have tried to get away from Confucian (or Christian!) moralistic values projected on the text. For instance, in hexagram 44, the "powerful maiden" hexagram, they propose a translation that does not demean strong women, and show how 19th century moralism coloured previous translations. So instead of Wilheml/Bayne's "COMING TO MEET. The maiden is powerful. One should not marry such a maiden", you have : "BE WELCOMING. The feminine is growing in power. Do not act. Marry a woman." Which means something very different, in view of yin/yang balance in the text - all about welcoming the yin in your life.

A good English translation, elegant and clear, is Master Huang's The Complete I Ching. Despite being a Taoist master, he still includes the Confucian commentary. His own commentary on the Book of Changes is not the deepest I've read, but it's simple and helpful - and the translation alone is worth the money paid, as he does a very thorough job with the whole text, commentaries and the changing lines.

[Susi]

In French - Yi Jing, Livre des Changements, by Pierre Faure and Cyrille Javary, respectively a sinologist and an I-Ching scholar. That's a fat book published by Albin Michel. It is the clearest book I own on the I-Ching, very detailed, and it analyses the characters of the text, as well as the hexagrams. It's the book that moved me into a new place with the I-Ching.
thank you so much for this enriching information. so faure is also a sinologist like wilhelm. this makes him equal in terms of competency! i will search for this author in the internet and hopefully buy one during my next trip to france!

[Fudugazi]

thank you so much for this enriching information. so faure is also a sinologist like wilhelm. this makes him equal in terms of competency! i will search for this author in the internet and hopefully buy one during my next trip to france!Oops, sorry, I put them the wrong way round - it is Javary who is the sinologist.

They pay an eloquent tribute to Wilhelm, by the way, but argue that the 21st Century needs a new translation and way of using the I-Ching from that in use in the late 19th Century, taking into account how the study of Ancient Chinese ideograms and pictograms has evolved since then.

[Susi]

it is nice for them to know and respect wilhelm nevertheless, thanks for the correction. je te souhaite une bonne journée!

[Alta]

Thanks for this Fudugazi. I always appreciate your comments. I guess the Faure book is not available in English? I can read simple French but am sure would miss the complexities in a topic like this.

[Fudugazi]

Thanks for this Fudugazi. I always appreciate your comments. I guess the Faure book is not available in English? I can read simple French but am sure would miss the complexities in a topic like this.I don't think it is, sadly. The French is not that complex, but as you say, the topic is complex. If you ever see it in a bookshop, try a few lines, to see how it reads for you.

Another thing I like about the book is that the authors break up every part of the text and analyse it. For instance:

Hex 35, Advancing in daylight
six in 3

The crowd consents
All regrets disappear.

You get a general commentary for about 2/3 page, followed by the textual analysis:

The crowd: the ideogram only appears here. It is formed of three times the character for the human, above which is an eye. It represents a multitude that has to be overseen and its common meaning of group, many, crowd, troop, people, populace, ordinary, vulgar distinguinshes it from the character representing the Chinese people, those united and policed by refined rituals. This distinction is particularly seen in the Great Image of hexagram 7 (nb: where both appear).

The crowd consents: interpreted historically, this means the success of the stratagem of Zhou Gong (nb - this is explained in another part of the hexagram). But we have to note in this perspective the ironic insolence of the winners. The Zhou, hitherto vassals of the Shangs, use the term of "vulgar crowd" to design their former masters. As they behaved like rebels, the Shang barons that revolted are compared to barbarians. See also 63/5, The Neighbours in the East.

Regrets: shorthand qualification meaning that we are tardy in adopting the new attitude demanded by the evolution of the situation

All regrets disappear: a shorthand formula inviting us to forge ahead without nostalgia for what we are leaving behind, as in line 5.

[bradford]

For instance, in hexagram 44, the "powerful maiden" hexagram, they propose a translation that does not demean strong women, and show how 19th century moralism coloured previous translations. So instead of Wilheml/Bayne's "COMING TO MEET. The maiden is powerful. One should not marry such a maiden", you have : "BE WELCOMING. The feminine is growing in power. Do not act. Marry a woman." Which means something very different, in view of yin/yang balance in the text - all about welcoming the yin in your life.

This means something very different indeed, but it misses the point of the hexagram completely in a misguided effort to be culturally sensitive. The hexagram is not about powerful women. It simply uses seduction and similar distractions as a metaphor for dissipation and entropy, the real core meanings of the hexagram (which, using trigram associations, I tie in to the eight of swords. This card has its own way of avoiding the woman's advances).

You're going to be way better off to stick with a good literal translation than with someone who wants to update or correct the Yijing before they even understand it.

I'll second the recommendation on Huang, but don't take his title "Master" seriously. He's not a master of the Yi. Thomas Cleary's translations are pretty true to the Chinese, especially his simple one and the one he prints with his "Buddhist I Ching". My own translation is also very literal, and is free at my website, but it's not really for beginners.

[Fudugazi]

I disagree with you, bradford. Faure and Javary are not trying to be culturally sensitive. They believe - and have demonstrated (you should read their book) - that the point of the hexagram was missed by Wilhem, and is about the growing of the power of yin, and how womanly power will achieve more than masculine/yang in the circumstances asked about.

Karcher sees it differently still - here the point is ecstatic sexual meeting - hence "coming to meet" - but you cannot "grasp" at it. You have to take it and let it go.

All these translations are valid, because they reflect the characters used so very succintly. In this particular instance, I go with Javary and Faure, because they are very persuasive about their choices of words. Of course, I do not know Ancient Chinese. But Javary is a professor of sinology, and he does. I'm happy to trust him on that, especially since he does give good reasons.

But maybe you want to give equally persuasive reasons for your own choices?

[bradford]

I disagree with you, bradford.
But maybe you want to give equally persuasive reasons for your own choices?

If you look through the six lines of 44, you will see the main theme of resisting the forces of premature dissipation developed systematically. You will not, however, see women's liberation or empowerment discussed any further in this hexagram.

You have a right to disagree with me. After all, your opinion is based on having read a couple of books that persuaded you. Just bear in mind that I've read almost everything in print twice (including Javery, but in English) and I know the book by heart in Chinese. You have formed your opinions way too quickly, and if you do not keep your mind open to greater ideas than these kneejerk pc reactions your understanding will never get any deeper.

[Susi]

if you do not keep your mind open to greater ideas than these kneejerk pc reactions your understanding will never get any deeper.
in any case i admire fudugazis recommendation and additional comment/analyze which is for me a necessary combination with my original wilhelm reading.
honestly speaking, i dont consider the above quotation very taoistic (or i ching - like)

[Alta]

I don't think it is necessary to 'take sides' here. Both bradford and Fudugazi are (mostly) focusing on interpretation and this sort of discussion is of great value.

I have read a fair number of translations and I find that those that try and 'use' the fairly cryptic I Ching saying to back up their own preconceived ideas are by far the weakest and least enduring. I do not pretend to any expertise however.

[Apocalipstick]

Thomas Cleary's translations are pretty true to the Chinese, especially his simple one and the one he prints with his "Buddhist I Ching".
From what I've seen of various translations, anytime Buddhism gets a hold of Daoist texts, corruptions occur due to differing belief systems.

Yes, this is a good translation and, I have been told, it remains true to enough of the original language, but there is, as the title states, a Buddhist slant, which should not -- should not -- be mistaken for anything Daoist.

This is a distinction that should be kept in mind with both the I Jing and the Dao De Jing. A mere word, as Fudugazi pointed out, can vastly alter meaning.

Edited to add, I believe the above-mentioned text is actually a Buddhist Chinese interpretation of the actual manuscript, so there are at least three layers to contend with. The intial text, the Chinese Buddhist text, and the English translation.

This doesn't mean it isn't good, or effective, or that it has no merit. Only that it's a Buddhist take.

[Fudugazi]

You have a right to disagree with me. After all, your opinion is based on having read a couple of books that persuaded you. Just bear in mind that I've read almost everything in print twice (including Javery, but in English) and I know the book by heart in Chinese. You have formed your opinions way too quickly, and if you do not keep your mind open to greater ideas than these kneejerk pc reactions your understanding will never get any deeper.

a. you are rude.
b. I have read a great deal more than two books on the i-ching over the past 10 years. My opinions are not pc, but based on the arguments of some people who - I assume - know Ancient Chinese rather better than you do, unless you can show otherwise. Nor are javary and Faure, two rather stuffy profs in France, particularly pc either. They would probably laugh at the idea.
c. I have calligraphied a fair bit of the i-ching in Chinese characters, to get to know them
d. you have yet to demonstrate what you contend in the way Javary and Faure do. I can be persuaded, but not by rudeness, dismissiveness or lack of argumentation.

[bradford]

BTW-
The Yijing is not a Daoist work. It contains a lot of things not Daoistic.
It antedates Lao-Zhuang Daoism by six centuries and Huang Lao by eight.
Nor does the Zhouyi (or original part) use the dichotomy of Yin and Yang, or its even its precursor, Rou and Gang. Yin is simply shade and Dao is simply a path. It will not be held to Daoist standards.

[bradford]

a. you are rude.

Well, I'm certainly not here to flatter you, or to give you new age affirmations to support you in your faulty and rather emotionally distraught thinking.
I monitor this site and forum to learn more about tarot, and sometimes kabbalah. I find that this is an outstanding site for these subjects, with a lot of knowledgeable people. But when the subject turns to the Yi, where there are no experts here, I find that beginners who ask questions are largely given the kind of misinformation that amateurs such as yourself have to offer. The Yijing people, not surprisingly, are all busy offering advice on Yijing forums. When someone asks for a good translation, I pop in and provide that. But I sometimes feel compelled to take a stand when someone like you misdirects a beginner. And there is no tactful way to tell someone with your approach to learning that there are people out there who surpass you in knowledge - you are going to get hysterical no matter how tactfully that is done.

[thinbuddha]

I monitor this site and forum to learn more about tarot, and sometimes kabbalah........... you are going to get hysterical no matter how tactfully that is done.

It seems clear that you don't monitor the forum that closely if you are assuming that Fudugazi (formerly Helvetica) is one for getting hysterical too quickly. I do think that your knowledge regarding this matter is far more informed that probably anyone else here, however for the sake of etiquette, you might have found a nicer way to demonstrate this knowledge. As a matter of fact, you haven't yet demonstrated much knowledge (in this thread). You have merely made claim to knowledge....

Why bother? Why bother floating in to tell someone they are wrong and PC and full of fluffy new age BS without bothering to say why you think this? You know what they say: "you'll catch more bees with honey".

Just an observation.

-tb

[Apocalipstick]

Yin is simply shade and Dao is simply a path. It will not be held to Daoist standards.
The Buddhist interest in it, however, comes later and it does alter the content.

You have obviously spent a great deal of time considering this, so I have no interest in a debate that looks to have good chances of being conducted in a less than civil manner.

So I will clarify what I meant:

My comment was an observation on the various layers of meaning the text you mention contained; this may be useful information for some. I'm sure there are plenty of particulars I have missed, since I have spent little time studying this.

I do know my Buddhism, however, which prompts me to be wary of any early text given a Buddhist once-over. Frankly, no matter how valuable these may be from a knowledge standpoint, the Buddhist layer obscures the initial meaning.

[Pagan X]

I've stopped recommending Karcher after finding some fairly serious typos (such as leaving out the word "not" in a line translation!). A shame.

I second the recommendation of Huang.

I disagree with Bradford that his translation is not for beginners. Too many I Ching books tell the reader what the hexagram and the lines mean. Maybe it's from my background in Tarot, but I'd rather read the hexagram text and lines myself and generate meaning *for the particular question in mind* for myself; Bradford's translation is excellent for this purpose because it has not replaced the concrete imagery with abstractions.

[Fudugazi]

Why bother? Why bother floating in to tell someone they are wrong and PC and full of fluffy new age BS without bothering to say why you think this? You know what they say: "you'll catch more bees with honey".Thanks, I'm glad I am not the only one to think that snide dismissiveness does not amount to argumentation. The one nobody needs, the other I, personally, do.

Bradford claims superior knowledge. That he should have knowledge superior to mine, I have no doubt at all. I don't claim to be an I-Ching scholar, just an enlightened amateur. But that he should claim superior knowledge to some eminent sinologists, and I start querying his credentials. I ask that he demonstrate them, and what he contends in terms of interpretation. As I said in an earlier post, I can be persuaded, but not by insults. If bradford thinks being civilised and polite to someone and using reasoned arguments to demonstrate his assertions amount to flattery, then he has some serious intellectual - and emotional - work to do on himself. Not my business, of course, but it is the business of this forum to be a place where ideas can be exchanged in the spirit of moderation and openness - and I'll add, reason.

Bradford, you seem to have spent a lot of time with Ancient Chinese culture. It's a shame its politeness and civilised behaviour, and its taste for moderation, did not rub off on you. You might regard yourself as a savant of the Yi, you certainly do not practice the Yi in your exchanges with others.

And to come back to the topic of this thread - to the person who first asked! - the greatest benefit I have derived from my practice with the I-Ching (or Yi Jing - does it matter if we use one or the other for what is a foreign language?) - on top of the divination aspect, is its constant stream of moderate advice, which amounts to a whole philosophy of being. As bradford writes, the I-Ching is not a Taoist work, it predates Taoism by quite a stretch. Karcher (despite the typos, which are a shame) has made a good job of demonstrating its shamanic origin, though I tend to believe that by the time it came to be written, much of the shamanism inherent in the text had morphed into more regulated spiritual practice. But its central philosophy, the Yi, is a precursor of Taoism, and in many ways the practice of the I-Ching in Ancient China formed the backbone of what was to become, later, ideas around the Tao (the first texts discussing the Tao also precede the religious practice and organisation of Taoism by some centuries). So it is not wrong to see them linked, though it is wrong to call the I-Ching a Taoist text.

[Milfoil]

Moderator note:

Differences of opinion make for good and healthy debate, even strongly held opinion, however . . .

I've repeatedly found that it is impossible to force anyone else to my accept my opinion, however learned I am (or think I am) so I would like to interject here that since opinions and information are what the forum is here for, lets then afford each other the opportunity to debate without becoming forceful and absolute in our manner of delivery.

Milfoil
Moderator - Divination, Spirituality & Co-mod Chat

[bradford]

I do know my Buddhism, however, which prompts me to be wary of any early text given a Buddhist once-over. Frankly, no matter how valuable these may be from a knowledge standpoint, the Buddhist layer obscures the initial meaning.

That's definitely a big concern, and it has been a bugaboo for 1900 years now. Cleary made four separate translations, one to accompany a Buddhist's commentary, one for a Taoist's commentary, one for Cheng Yi's Song Dynasty commentary and a fourth to stand alone. I compared the whole of each one word by word to the Chinese text. The translations themselves weren't that different, and the differences that were there may have reflected his own personal growth more than a localized slant for a particular application. But I did find that the "Buddhist" translation, separated from the appended Buddhist's commentary, more faithfully rendered the Chinese text of the Yi into English. The stand alone was a close second.

[bradford]

This is the way we were just told that 44.0 should be translated:
BE WELCOMING. The feminine is growing in power. Do not act. Marry a woman.

This is a link to that particular text in my Matrix translation, which suggests about a hundred different ways to translate the line:
http://www.hermetica.info/44.0.pdf

Note that the phrase "wu yong qu nu" is also used at 04.3, where the "young fool" is being advised not to court the woman who loses self-possession upon seeing a man of wealth. This "alternative" translation would have to work here as well, and it fails here too. Further, every major Chinese text parses (or punctuates) this as a four-character line, not two pairs.

The power that is being spoken of here is not power developed by another but power given over to another. Just as a man gives a woman power by surrendering his wits, a woman gives a man power by surrendering her choices. Neither is healthy.

[Apocalipstick]

So it is not wrong to see them linked, though it is wrong to call the I-Ching a Taoist text.
Huh. Now that I looked for this information, there it is. I even vaguely remember glancing at it.

That's what comes of owning a monster of a book, and only using part of it. :rolleyes:

Which answers the original question. Have read the hexagram texts, but only by randomly picking one as the mood strikes and interpreting it in as many ways as possible.

Mostly for my own personal amusement. Sometimes for divination.

But I do that with most books I encounter.

[Apocalipstick]

But I did find that the "Buddhist" translation, separated from the appended Buddhist's commentary, more faithfully rendered the Chinese text of the Yi into English. The stand alone was a close second.
Very interesting.

It was my understanding that current Chinese is a vastly simplified form of the Chinese used in the earliest texts, thus it is a translation of sorts. I recall Lin Yutang making a similar point as well, in his commentary in his Wisdom of Confucius. Granted, it's not the most current text, but it's the one example I always remember.

Anyway, I find what you say about the Buddhist translation intriguing. Care to expand on it?

[bradford]

Anyway, I find what you say about the Buddhist translation intriguing. Care to expand on it?

Not really, except to say that it is extremely literal, as in faithful to the Chinese text, with all of the Chinese words adequately represented. A lot of translators will skip over the particles as filler when they don't take the time to understand the text. This includes a lot of the scholars.
Since it's one of the best translations out there, easily better than Wilhelm's, it's really worth having, even if you skip the Buddhist commentary. It's back in print at Amazon for under $15, and there are 62 used copies available at http://www.abebooks.com starting at $4.44.

[Susi]

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-------- is the hexagram which yesterday i have thrown and compared the wilhelm german translation with javary's frech one which i suspect behind http://www.afpc.asso.fr/wengu/wg/wengu.php?lang=fr&l=Yijing / i see this is actually a pure wilhelm translation into french, i have not found a website with the original javary text (there do exist sites in german though)
i see that in the meantime the thread has taken a rather theoretical touch, discussing books and prices. nevertheless i have the intention to discuss my weekly hexas here.
the follower with changing line 3. people may follow the wise but with the intention to promote their own profit.

[bradford]

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Hi Susi-
Sorry but you seem to have your trigrams reversed here.
You've drawn us thunder over the lake, which is #54.
17 is thunder IN (or beneath) the lake.
Do you recall which is correct?
B

[Susi]

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yes it is lake above thunder. i ve actually exchanged the 2 trigrams while drawing them here. it is really hexagram # 17. (i wouldnt identify with the marrying girl and its meanings, but am still very interested in basic pratical work with i ching)

[moderndayruth]

Fudugazi,
thank you for your interpretation of 44th hexagram, i am getting it daily lately & it just now makes sence to me.
It's funny how can anyone claim to be knowlegable in this field... I've been studyng Yi Jing for 13 years now, Mandarin Chinese for three years, (one year in Chinese University), obtained masters in Chinese Philosophy and i consider myself a beginner... Which i am. Indeed, Yi Jing / I Ching teeches us moderation, so some comments here do surprise me ...
Love&Light
MDR

[bradford]

yes it is lake above thunder. i ve actually exchanged the 2 trigrams while drawing them here. it is really hexagram # 17. (i wouldnt identify with the marrying girl and its meanings, but am still very interested in basic practical work with i ching)

Do you not ask specific questions? This is how the Yi was intended to work, at least if you aren't studying it as an ethical manual. As general meditations the book still has a lot to offer, but it's in applying the general metaphors to specific situations and narrowing the meanings down a little further by making them answer specific questions that we really start to use the Yi as a tool for improving our lives, and we exercise both halves of our brains in that process.
The general mantra idea doesn't do that.

[Skysteel]

As general meditations the book still has a lot to offer, but it's in applying the general metaphors to specific situations and narrowing the meanings down a little further by making them answer specific questions that we really start to use the Yi as a tool for improving our lives...

Well that depends on ones definition of 'improving'...
- ;)

[bradford]

Well that depends on ones definition of 'improving'...
- ;)

Indeed it does. I was just responding to her use of her phrase "practical work,"
which she made a point of using. Nothing wrong with meditation, but it's almost by definition "not practicing," or im-practical in that sense. It's a little like Tarot. Maybe the best way to first get to know a card is to spend a whole day with each one as a meditation. That's a good thing, and useful later. But the potential meanings are too broad to be practical - they need to fall into a particular place in a spread, laid out following a question, to narrow those meanings down to the practical aspects of your particular life. The function of both of these, the spread position and the question, are taken up by the question in the Yijing.

[Skysteel]

...Nothing wrong with meditation, but it's almost by definition "not practicing," or im-practical in that sense. It's a little like Tarot. Maybe the best way to first get to know a card is to spend a whole day with each one as a meditation. That's a good thing, and useful later. But the potential meanings are too broad to be practical...

This presupposes their meanings are supposed to be practical, and not a form of meditation, though; meditation is analogous to education - not practical, per se, but affording greater scope to our practical endeavours.

[Susi]

Do you not ask specific questions? This is how the Yi was intended to work, at least if you aren't studying it as an ethical manual. As general meditations the book still has a lot to offer, but it's in applying the general metaphors to specific situations and narrowing the meanings down a little further by making them answer specific questions that we really start to use the Yi as a tool for improving our lives, and we exercise both halves of our brains in that process.
i do indeed ask specific questions. different to the tarot which i lay repeated times in order to get to know the cards better i throw a hexagram as a motto to think over during the week and in the case of specific questions. i was startled getting #17 with changing line 3 when asking how my circle of friends would be going to develop during this spring. i have been confronted with the problem (line 3 in 17) some years ago.
i initiated studying i ging (only wilhelm in german) 15 years ago and then made a break. while learning tarot i took up again my i ching studies. 15 yrs ago it has uniquely been a book of wiseness for everyday life. it is only now that i started oracling with yi ging.

[bradford]

Hi Susi
Let's give that one a go in the context of your question.
An alternate translation, not too different from Wilhelm:

17.3, 6 3rd, Zhi Gua 49: Ge, Seasonal Change
Bound to one of maturity
Giving up the little child
Following comes to be seeking of gain
Worthwhile to abide in persistence
17.3x Bound to one of maturity:
Intending to give up the lowly

This one wants to be understood in comparison with the line before it, although 17.2 isn't part of your reading. You (plural?) may become more aware of the big price we pay for growing up and putting away childish things. Yes, we get better at getting what we want, but we also get less good at being pleasantly surprised by life. We lose some innocence and wonder and start to question whether there isn't something more wonderful on the far side of maturity. But we know we can't go back to being childish or childlike, because that was ignorance and naivety too. I would guess the main thing is remember to have fun and enjoy what you're doing together, even if it involves achieving rational objectives.

[bradford]

Afterthought-
Since we do have choices and at least some free will, I don't regard hard-core prediction as the point of divination. I look at readings like they are recommendations for psychological tools to have on hand and ready to use.
For example, in this case, goal directed behavior might cause some stress among your circle of friends, and you might be called upon to help keep two of you from taking each other too seriously and jeopardizing the friendships. You could be called upon to reintroduce some levity, light and perspective.

[Pagan X]

Bradford, are there some I Ching message boards you recommend?

[serenaserendipity]

i too love the i-ching...
recently i discovered a new translation, that is less poetic than the wilhelm edition but closer to the original chinese, with the way the characters have many possible and imagic meanings...

its published by the Eranos foundation and it is a HUGE red book...

has anyone experimented with i-ching and tarot combined?

serena

[bradford]

RE: Yi Forums
The first forum is best for beginners, and all around too.
The archives are accessible with a search engine and the
main site has a free online beginner's course.
Midaughter is fairly active, the others less so. The last is
Stephen Karcher's site - he's a co-author of the big red
book mentioned above. This is a useful book for scholars
but I consider it more of a glossary than a translation
because it really doesn't work with the Chinese grammar
very well. I think they're in the process of getting the bugs
worked out of the forum portion.

Moderator Note:

Links to outside forums removed as per Aeclectic Tarot Forum Rules

FORUM RULES (http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=11575)

RE: Serena's question - Crowley started to play with it.
I could make lots of sense of his court card attributions.
Then I developed an artificial system that lets me use both
interchangeably. To do that I had to use all of the Yijing
symbols, 2 + 4 + 8 + 64 = 78, so given those number
scales it can't really respect all of the Tarot's distinctions
between the trumps, court and minor arcana. But it helps
in interpretation. I certainly don't see any historical
connection, except that some "recent" 10th-11th century
Yijing work may have had an influence on both the Arabs
and Kabbalah. But that's conjecture.

[Susi]

Since we do have choices and at least some free will, I don't regard hard-core prediction as the point of divination. I look at readings like they are recommendations for psychological tools to have on hand and ready to use.
thanks bradford for your comments on my hexa and changing lines. i would generally be grateful if you and others on the board could give me some citations as by now i have nothing but wilhelm in german and its french translation.
i d also be grateful for the javary-faure text either in original french or its english translation
there are 2 other books recommended by fudugazi from southafrica
Stephen Karcher's Total I-Ching. Not the most elegant of translations, but very enriching. His analysis of the I-Ching as an oracle and a shamanic system is phenomenal. He's done away with a lot of the Confucian overlay. Discovering his book was a very exciting moment for me.
A good English translation, elegant and clear, is Master Huang's The Complete I Ching. Despite being a Taoist master, he still includes the Confucian commentary. His own commentary on the Book of Changes is not the deepest I've read, but it's simple and helpful - and the translation alone is worth the money paid, as he does a very thorough job with the whole text, commentaries and the changing lines.
my hexa for this week - in order not to exchange lines again i added the 6-to-9 numbers this time!
7 --------
9 --(--)--
8 --- ---
8 --- ---
9 --(--)--
8 --- --- so as far as i see it is wind above water, hexagram #59 (dissolution?), changing in 2&5
2 warns of misanthropy - a feeling which i know
in 5 wilhelm speaks about a common thought which reunites people and lets them concentrate on a common goal.
generally it is a hexagram which warns of individual egoism and in my opinion corresponds to the waite tarot big arcanum: the devil.
well it is not the best of all hexagrams but surely a fact to think about. if you like i d be pleased for indications esp. concerning the changing lines of my week. thanks in advance and i wish a good week to all of you!

[thinbuddha]

You're going to be way better off to stick with a good literal translation than with someone who wants to update or correct the Yijing before they even understand it.

Warning- I'm just talking out my ass here. Thinking aloud, and not really knowing if I actually believe what I'm saying but....

Why does it matter if something is true to the original? Is the original still relevant to the modern audience? Was the original ever relevant to women? A western audience?

I mean, from the point of view of someone like Bradford, who has translated the text himself, it would be a hard thing to separate any new takes on the source from the source itself. But for someone like me who has only poked around, can it really be said that a translation that is tainted by a modern point of view is somehow inferior to a translation that is true to the source? As a translation, clearly one that is true to the source is better- there is no doubt. But if one looks at it not as a translation, but as a oracle to actually use, one with a modern take could (in theory, mind you) actually be better for a modern audience. What good is the original if it doesn't speak to a living audience? I know that this pre-supposes that the original has somehow lost touch- which clearly isn't true for some people- but perhaps for other people, perhaps a modern interpretation is what is needed.

After all, a translation is exactly that- a translation. It is meant to make something understandable to a audience that speaks a different language (lives in a different time/culture). The very fact that the I Ching is available in English means that some of the original meaning will be lost, and likely some new meaning will be introduced. It can't be helped that a document this old will mean something very different to a modern audience even if the translation is slavishly faithful to the original.

Of course, the above is all just my mind wandering, and I know next to nothing about these texts- the original nor the translations. But if a translation that happens to be tainted by a modern view happens to speak to someone living in a modern world, maybe that translation is the right one for the person to whom it speaks(?)

[Pagan X]

TB, I don't think I've ever seen a translation of the I Ching that stated up front that it was "I Ching updated for modern times" or "My personal interpretation of I Ching". Practically all of the translators make the claim that "mine is the true/authentic/restored/original interpretation of the I Ching".

Not unlike the books on Tarot written for most of the 19th and 20th centuries...

I personally would love to see translators/interpreters of the I Ching moving away from that attitude, as it is a.)unsupportable in a great many cases and b.)creates a lot of rancor which is unnecessary for the I Ching to function as a personal oracle. Like Tarot, I think personal "versions" of the I Ching can be valuable to read and discuss, and eventually each reader (in the West) will generate his/her own I Ching approach that works for the individual.

Frankly, I think any 21st century urban dweller who thinks s/he can restore the orginal Shamanic I Ching is deluded. The life led by early agricultural Chinese is so different that there are nuances of interpretation we miss; for example, the shaped bottle gourd of Hexagram 44. Who here has flayed a sheep? Castrated a horse? Moved ancestors' bones to a new location? Kept slaves and concubines?

Heck, we can't agree on translations of the Bible that are only 1500 years old, or even meanings of Tarot cards that are only 600 years old! And then there's the US Constitution...oy!

[Susi]

TB, I don't think I've ever seen a translation of the I Ching that stated up front that it was "I Ching updated for modern times" or "My personal interpretation of I Ching". Practically all of the translators make the claim that "mine is the true/authentic/restored/original interpretation of the I Ching".
this is exactly the reason for me to try to get to know multiple translations in different languages. but the main essence es: the older it is, the more authentic, the better it is. and the better i can draw my own essence of it. the i ging translation is understood by everyone individually.
without any doubt the r.wilhelm translation in german has been the initializing trigger for me, although some here say that his missionary intent seems to be too obvious.

[thinbuddha]

Practically all of the translators make the claim that "mine is the true/authentic/restored/original interpretation of the I Ching".

This is mostly true (though I have seen a couple books on the shelves that specifically make claim to a modern interpretation). There is a reason that they make this claim to being true to the original. It is because there is a sense (among the buying public) that only the original is worthy of consideration. I have fallen prey to this line of thought (I skimmed right past those that looked to take a modern approach). I'll probably keep skimming right past them, by the way....

But maybe, like you say, the modern man can't fully understand the shamanistic approach. Maybe modern versuions should be full of allegories about a jammed fax machine, a tax refund, trips to Wal*Mart or a missed plane in order to convey the original ideas to the modern minds in a way that will be understood. The idea is to change the delivery in order to more faithfully convey the original meaning.... I know- I'm half joking.

But how much of the original I Ching is "timeless" and how much is a window into a different time (one that we cannot fully understand from our modern perspective)?

[Susi]

the more modern, the more unauthentic it becomes. i am sometimes startled and shocked about the reverse meanings modern translators make of the iching. their books arent worth more than collecting dust on the shelf of an abandoned grocery store.

[thinbuddha]

the more modern, the more unauthentic it becomes.

Clearly. Think hard about the meaning of the word authentic. It basically means original (or for this discussion, as close to the original as possible). But here's the rub: is more authentic always better? Is the non-authentic always without merit? If this is the case, then you should get rid of your Waite tarot, as it is clearly not authentic.

[Susi]

i do consider my RWS as authentic, at least the most authentic one can get these days. of course i cant procure myself a tarot set of the 18th century. it was waites aim to collect all previous thoughts and note them down with pixie as the designer. it is a very good basis to work with and i can replace myself back into the time 1909 when it was concepted.
now back to iching. the nearest to the historical iging is for me authentic. wilhelm as a sinologist has translated it directly from chin. into german - the language i work with. so this is a good basis, as well but it shouldnt be the only basis. not having found a javary/faure translation up till now wilhelm is still the only translation i can work with by now.

[bradford]

Moderator Note: Links to outside forums removed as per Aeclectic Tarot Forum Rules

Sorry folks - answering that forum question directly is against the rules.
For the four sites I tried to give links to, try Googling:
"Clarity I Ching Community"
"Midaughter"
"I Ching Scholars"
"Great Vessel"

[bradford]

Aside from Reifler"s I Ching: A New Interpretation for Modern Times," folks generally don't admit to offering their own interpretations. Maybe half of the English language Yijing book in print are written by people who hardly understand a word of Chinese, as was the case with the creative "translation" of Hex 44 above. But where there's money to be made and sheep to be shorn ...
And given the rich connotations of Chinese words and the need to narrow them down in order to translate, even the best translations will contain vast amounts of interpretive spin. I personally would never advise consulting with any less than three translations at hand. The same, of course, with Tarot manuals.

Something important needs to be considered, and is almost always neglected, in the debate between ancient meanings and modern understanding, or between what the book meant to the ancients and how the Yi applies to shopping in malls. Our culture can be pretty arrogant in looking down its long nose at more primitive societies, but those among us who have ever gone native, or lived among primitive tribes, or hung out with real shamans, or been in the peace corps, or even watched "Going Tribal" on TV, know that we have a lot more humanity in common than others might suspect. Our brains are no different. We have huge ranges of behaviors in common that can be represented by simple concrete metaphors and analogies, or archetypes - especially around the basic needs, getting food, getting laid, getting out of the rain. It never takes long to find something in common to laugh about with someone from a primitive tribe.
So think about this- if you're designing an oracle with universal applicability in mind, aren't you going to try to use the images that are the most universal across both time and space? This is why, as Pagan X mentioned above, I tried to stick to the original concrete/sensory images instead of substituting abstractions. Then I just needed to give enough footnotes to explain some of the more localized cultural references. In short, I found myself rather astounded by the universality and modern applicability of the oldest layers of the Yi. Those who have to maintain their cultural arrogance, a group which unfortunately contains much of the modern academic movement, are forced by their mindset to view the Yi's metaphors and analogies as concrete omens and superstitions - this is where a lot of the perspective on the Yi as an antiquated text actually comes from.

[thinbuddha]

An excellent and well thought out reply, Bradford. I suspect that you have discussed this before ;) But I can't help wondering where the line is between those who have troubles understanding the original perspective of the culture that the Yi came from (as you describe in a couple posts), and the universality of something that comes from that ancient culture being able to penetrate the arrogance of the modern culture. Is it a matter of people just being open to hear the message? And really, while there is a universality to some messages, which is the reason that I have gravitated to mythic stories all my life, there is real teeth to the arguement that because I have never been in a situation where I am getting weaker because of my hunger, so I have to find the energy to hunt (or harvest). This hasn't been my experience- so if someone from an ancient culture talks of such weakness and overcomming it, I can intellectualize this, but never having lived it, I'm not sure how well I can understand it. This is a far cry from arrogance- admiting that I can't grok something that comes from a culture that is supposedly more "primitive" than my own.

I'm sure that there are many things that are only intellectually accessible to me that would have been life or death trials & imbued with spiritual significance, in addition being understood intellectually by someone from this ancient and distant culture.

EDIT: As an aside, Susi, I do have a few decks from the 17th and 18th centuries, and they don't look much like the RWS deck. They are easily and affordably available online in the form of historical reporductions. I would say that the RWS isn't authentic if you want to define authentic as being similar to the earliest decks. But this doesn't mean that the RWS can't or shouldn't be taken seriously. It is a modern take on an old art form, and should be judged by it's own merits- not by how closely it resembles something from an eariler era.

[Pagan X]

i do consider my RWS as authentic, at least the most authentic one can get these days. of course i cant procure myself a tarot set of the 18th century. it was waites aim to collect all previous thoughts and note them down with pixie as the designer. it is a very good basis to work with and i can replace myself back into the time 1909 when it was concepted.
now back to iching. the nearest to the historical iging is for me authentic. wilhelm as a sinologist has translated it directly from chin. into german - the language i work with. so this is a good basis, as well but it shouldnt be the only basis. not having found a javary/faure translation up till now wilhelm is still the only translation i can work with by now.

Sorry, Susi, but you can buy several decks that are pre-Waite, all the way back to the 1400's. It wasn't Waite's aim to collect all previous thoughts; nor was it his aim to go to the oldest decks, otherwise they'd look just like...the decks from the 1400's.

The Majors were not numbered; the Hermit had an hourglass, not a lamp; the Chariot has Venus in it, not a guy with Masonic symbolism; the Empress has a man under her feet, and so on...very different stuff, and no illustrations for the minors.

If you can get a copy of "Wicked Deck of Cards", you'll find it fascinating reading, about the history of the Tarot up to Waite. Or, you might enjoy, "Art and Arcana", which is a guide to the Scapini deck that contains a lot of historical and comparative information.

"original" and "authentic" can also mean "beta version", "incomplete", "of historical interest only". After all, divination by dice and dominoes predates Tarot, so they should be better, right? I Ching certainly predates Tarot, so why bother with Tarot? Astrology predates both I Ching and Tarot, so go with Astrology. Dream interpretation probably predates Astrology. And so on.

Tarot, again, is a good example of "original" isn't always better. Waite & Smith's deck is much better for divination and meditation for most people than the earlier decks. Waite & Smith's deck uses the occult symbolism of the 1880's, which many people would rather study (today) than the Catholic and NeoPlatonic symbolism of the decks of the 1400's. Who wants to try to do fortunetelling with the Virtues and the Graces? With the Black Plague and Judas? "You will break out in buboes and half your village will die" does not bring in return customers.

Don't get me wrong. I love reading different translations and reading about history. I think knowledge of context and history enriches the entire experience of divination and aids in practical fortunetelling. I just think that making claims to knowing what was in the minds of people hundreds of years ago and thousands of miles away, living lives that were materially very different and emotionally very very different (do not anger ancestors, they will kill you via disease.) is a form of temporal and cultural hubris. To explore the differences of the human condition is broadening, engenders compassion, grants perspective, grounds us in moral dilemmas; to claim absolute knowledge is a form of cultural disrespect and sometimes theft.

[Susi]

thx bradford nevertheless for these external links which really have helped me a lot to move on !
thx pagan and buddha for the indication concerning previous decks to waite's. so i must confess: i am a simple person from nowadays. the question of other's definition of authenticity doesnt touch me that much - what i wanted to express with my love for RWS is that it is the appropriate compromize between historical decks and after-waite-decks. i wouldnt know how to treat visconti sforza's, for instance. but now lets get back to the main theme of this thread which is the I CHING.
i would for example extremely appreciate it if anyone of you could tell me more or supply info about I Ching Calendar-Diary by Kigh Alix Deigh which is unfortunately out of print, was published some 25 yrs ago.

[Fudugazi]

Susi, I've looked up your hexagram of the week in the Javary and Faure translation and commentary, concerning your circle of friends:

In French it goes:

17 SUIVRE
Fondamentalement favorisant
Ténacité profitable
Absence de faute

(TO FOLLOW
Fundamentally favorable
Tenacity profitable
Absence of fault)

Six en 3
Attachement à l'homme aguerri
Abandon du petit enfant
Suivre fait rechercher des gains
Profitable d'être tenace comme qui demeure

(Binding to the experienced man
Leaving the small child
To follow makes one seek gains (NB: the commentary explains this is to be seen as "easy gains" - and something one receives).
It is profitable to be tenacious like what stays put.)

(forgive my rather plodding translation)

Line changes to 49, REVOLUTION

The commentary is along the lines of what bradford wrote of this hexagram and changing line.

[Pagan X]

i would for example extremely appreciate it if anyone of you could tell me more or supply info about I Ching Calendar-Diary by Kigh Alix Deigh which is unfortunately out of print, was published some 25 yrs ago.

Those were wonderful. I wish somebody would make calendars like those again. I suppose with the resources available on the web I could make one for myself, but it would take a lot of time and not come out as nice.

[Pagan X]

Back to I Ching: like Bradford, I prefer the translations that stay with the concrete imagery. When a translator (such as Wing) moves to the level of abstractions, potential meanings are lost; the universe of interpretations has been narrowed; removed from exactly the level of common experience. If the I refers to an experience that I have not had (such as owning slaves) I can at least research it and come to my own conclusions.

It also removes opportunities for the I to speak in a very focused way with respect to divination. As an example, when a young Witch, I asked if I would attain the Second Degree. The I returned the changing line about the Man with red kneebands... now, in Wicca, the High Priest does in fact wear red garters.

Had I used a translation that had "interpreted" the Man in Red Kneebands for me, I would have been deprived of a wonderful, very specific, response.

Another source of concrete imagery is the history of the characters used to write the I. Look for Dan Stackhouse "The Original I Ching" online. (yes, he does that 'original' thing...)

[Susi]

17 SUIVRE
Fondamentalement favorisant
Ténacité profitable
Absence de faute
Six en 3
Attachement à l'homme aguerri
Abandon du petit enfant
Suivre fait rechercher des gains
Profitable d'être tenace comme qui demeure.
thank you fudugazi for this, and pagan for have taught me at least a glimpse of that wonderful deigh calendardiary of 25 yrs ago. i was 13 then - to early to become interested.
you now, pagan - i work with the wilhelm translation, and before explaining wilhelm recites and translates as literally as possible the original - at least this is my impression. now that thanks to fudugazi i have caught a glimpse of javary-faure i see he does it quite similarly.

[bradford]

Here is a citation that might help you find copies:
Dhiegh, Khigh Alx. I Ching: Taoist Book of Days. NY: Ballantine Books, 1979.
Was published as an annual calendar 1975-1981.

He also wrote:
_____The Eleventh Wing: An Exposition of the Dynamics of I Ching for Now.
NY: Dell Publishing Co., 1973.

He was also a well known actor, best known as Wo Fat on Hawaii 5-0

The Yijing text (not a translation) of the Taoist Book of Days stayed pretty much the same from year to year. The days assigned to the texts moved around.

He was a subject of discussion on Clarity recently so ABE's stockpile of
used copies diminished. There are still a handful left though, starting in the high 30's ($US)

[Pagan X]

If I remember correctly, it was the Western calendar days that "moved around"; the Chinese calendar (a lunar calendar) wasn't supposed to.

Using an old copy and the Internet to pull down Lunar dates, new ones could be made.

[Susi]

thank you so much for this additional information bradford.
pagan, i would surely be interested in the system of deighs calendar. if it really dates back to 1975 this is actually a very long time ago....

[bradford]

Just for giggles I made a pdf of one of his hexagrams
and will leave it here for a couple of days for the curious:
http://www.hermetica.info/Dheigh.pdf
Like I said, it's not a translation.
It's also not on my "A List" of best library investments
but I got some use out of it at the time

[Susi]

you are a jewel, bradford. i have noted the link as i have no possibility to store this pdf on a pc, so i hope the link will remain long on hermetica or here in this forum
you must now that i love calendars enormously, they have a kind of magic for me as they are filled with the symbol of time - one of the most precious goods, they make time touchable.
now with this sample you gave me an idea about how the deigh calendar was and how i could do one myself.
it is obvious that the deigh translations and explications are not the most elaborate one but with his diary he helped us in accompanying our days by i ching.

[Pagan X]

Susi, we could make such a calendar with any translation (including Bradfords which is online....)

OK, rules of the Chinese calendar, from Wikipedia (Susi,there might be a Deutsch version online):

Calendar rules
The following rules outline the Chinese calendar since c.104 BC. Note that the rules allow either mean or true motions of the Sun and Moon to be used, depending on the historical period.

The months are lunar months. This means the first day of each month beginning at midnight is the day of the astronomical new moon. (Note, however, that a "day" in the Chinese calendar begins at 11 p.m. and not at midnight)
Each year has 12 regular months, which are numbered in sequence (1 to 12) and have alternative names. Every second or third year has an intercalary month (閏月 rùnyuè), which may come after any regular month. It has the same number as the preceding regular month, but is designated intercalary.
Every other jiéqì of the Chinese solar year is equivalent to an entry of the sun into a sign of the tropical zodiac (a principal term or cusp).
The sun always passes the winter solstice (enters Capricorn) during month 11.
If there are 12 months between two successive occurrences of month 11, at least one of these 12 months must be a month during which the sun remains within the same zodiac sign throughout (no principal term or chusp occurs within it). If only one such month occurs, it is designated intercalary, but if two such months occur, only the first is designated intercalary.
The times of the astronomical new moons and the sun entering a zodiac sign are determined in the Chinese Time Zone by the Purple Mountain Observatory (紫金山天文台 Zǐjīnshān Tiānwéntái) outside Nanjing using modern astronomical equations.
The zodiac sign which the sun enters during the month and the ecliptic longitude of that entry point usually determine the number of a regular month. Month 1, zhēngyuè, literally means principal month. All other months are literally numbered, second month, third month, etc.

# Chinese name Long. Zodiac sign
11 十一月 shíyīyuè 270° Capricornus
12 十二月 shí'èryuè 300° Aquarius
1 正月 zhēngyuè 330° Pisces
2 二月 èryuè 0° Aries
3 三月 sānyuè 30° Taurus
4 四月 sìyuè 60° Gemini
5 五月 wǔyuè 90° Cancer
6 六月 liùyuè 120° Leo
7 七月 qīyuè 150° Virgo
8 八月 bāyuè 180° Libra
9 九月 jiǔyuè 210° Scorpius
10 十月 shíyuè 240° Sagittarius

Some believe the above correspondence to be always true, but there are exceptions, which, for example, prevent Chinese New Year from always being the second new moon after the winter solstice, or that cause the holiday to occur after the Rain Water jieqi. An exception will occur in 2033-2034, when the winter solstice is the second solar term in the eleventh month. The next month is a no-entry month and so is intercalary, and a twelfth month follows which contains both the Aquarius and Pisces solar terms (deep cold and rain water). The Year of the Tiger thus begins on the third new moon following the Winter Solstice, and also occurs after the Pisces (rain water) jieqi, on February 19.

Another occurrence was in 1984-85, after the sun had entered both Capricorn at 270° and Aquarius at 300° in month 11, and then entered Pisces at 330° during the next month, which should have caused it to be month 1. The sun did not enter any sign during the next month. In order to keep the winter solstice in month 11, the month which should have been month 1 became month 12, and the month thereafter became month 1, causing Chinese New Year to occur on 20 February 1985 after the sun had already passed into Pisces at 330° during the previous month, rather than during the month beginning on that day.

On those occasions when a dual-entry month does occur, it always occurs somewhere between two months that do not have any entry (non-entry months). It usually occurs alone and either includes the winter solstice or is nearby, thus placing the winter solstice in month 11 (rule 4) chooses which of the two non-entry months becomes the intercalary month. In 1984-85, the month immediately before the dual-entry month 11 was a non-entry month which was designated as an intercalary month 10. All months from the dual-entry month to the non-entry month that is not to be intercalary are sequentially numbered with the nearby regular months (rule 2). The last phrase of rule 5, choosing the first of two non-entry months between months 11, has not been required since the last calendar reform, and will not be necessary until the 2033-34 occasion, when two dual-entry months will be interspersed among three non-entry months, two of which will be on one side of month 11. The leap eleventh month produced is a very rare occasion. See [3] for details.

Exceptions such as these are rare. Fully 96.6% of all months contain only one entry into a zodiacal sign (have one principal term or cusp), all obeying the numbering rules of the jiéqì table, and 3.0% of all months are intercalary months (always non-entry months between principal terms or cusps). Only 0.4% of all months either are dual-entry months (have two principal terms or cusps) or are neighboring months that are renumbered.

It is only after the 1645 reform that this situation arose. Then it became necessary to fix one month to always contain its principal term and allow any other to occasionally not contain its principal term. Month 11 was chosen, because its principal term (the winter solstice) forms the start of the Chinese Solar year (the sui).

The Chinese lunar calendar and the Gregorian Calendar often sync up every 19 years (Metonic cycle). Most Chinese people notice that their Chinese and Western birthdays often fall on the same day on their 19th, 38th birthday etc. However, a 19-year cycle with a certain set of intercalary months is only an approximation, so an almost identical pattern of intercalary months in subsequent cycles will eventually change after some multiple of 19 years to a quite different 19-year cycle.

The Chinese zodiac (see Nomenclature and Twelve Animals sections) is only used in naming years—it is not used in the actual calculation of the calendar. In fact, the Chinese have a very different constellation system.

The twelve months are closely connected with agriculture, so they are alternatively named after plants:

Primens (first month) 正月: Latin "primus mensis".
Apricomens (apricot month) 杏月: apricot blossoms.
Peacimens (peach month) 桃月: peach blossoms.
Plumens (plum month) 梅月: mei ripens.
Guavamens (guava month) 榴月: pomegranate blossoms.
Lotumens (lotus month) 荷月: lotus blossoms.
Orchimens (orchid month) 蘭月: orchid blossoms.
Osmanthumens (osmanthus month) 桂月: osmanthus blossoms.
Chrysanthemens (chrysanthemum month) 菊月: chrysanthemum blossoms.
Benimens (good month) 良月: good month.
Hiemens (hiemal month) 冬月: hiemal month.
Lamens (last month) 臘月: last month.

[Susi]

thank you for this enriching info pagan, i am thinking about doing one in german (mothertongue) for 2008: does anyone know the year of which animal 08 is going to be?

my hexa for week14 ist 41, diminuation. i have 9 in two: to serve without giving up oneself: an advice which is essential for me concerning professional matters!

[Pagan X]

The Year of the Earth Rat will start Feb 07, 2008

Here is a page for software to covert Western dates into Chinese dates:

http://www.hermetic.ch/chcal/chcal.htm

It has both English and German versions.

There are sites using this software and charging for the predictions!

[bradford]

A Guide for the Perplexed

If anyone is getting confused by all of these calendar associations,
or getting frightened away from the Yijing by their complexity,
please note that this is only one small part of Yijing studies, and not
by any means a necessary one. This area of interest is called the
Image and Number School (or Xiangshu Jia). Its counterpart is called
the Meaning and Principle School (or Yili Jia). That school seeks to
understand the meaning of the words, metaphors and analogies and
their implications for ethical behavior.
The people studying only the original text from 3000 years ago are
studying the Zhouyi or Changes of Zhou. Those studying the Yijing
or Classic of Changes are also reading the Ten Wings or appendices,
written about 2400 years ago and introducing all the philosophical
concepts such as Yin and Yang, which were not part of the original.
The Image and Number School didn't really get started until the
Han Dynasty, 2200 years ago. This means that most of the calendar
references are not necessary for understanding either the Zhouyi or
the Ten Wings.

[Susi]

thank you for the link pagan and bradford, for the additional information.
i am sure of being principally interested in the meaning of the words, metaphors and analogies. i have the dchuang dsi at home, as well but i cannot find the wisdom in these anecdotes. so the core for me is and remains still the astonishing wilhelm interpretation (translation)
i d be grateful if fudugazi could additionally help me again in providing the french faure lines concerning my hexa of the week: 41, changing in 2. i wish you all a wonderful week!

[thinbuddha]

Can someone set me straight?

Looking back and forth between my translations, I'm seeing that some of the text isn't even included in some translations (such as the "Image").

I know that some of the things that are usually included in the I Ching represent additions to the original text. If I remember correctly, the "10 Wings" are sometimes included as part of the text, but sometimes as an appendix to the main text... and often not at all, or not complete.

My question is simple: What makes up the original text? What was added later?

It seems that when shopping for another translation, most of the books are rather packed with commentaries. I'm not so sure this is a good thing- I wouldn't mind finding a good translation that didn't have any commentary.... Not because I know the text so well, but because sometimes I find myself having to find the actual text that is lost in a page full of explanation of the meaning of that text.

-tb

[Pagan X]

That's because the "image" is not from the original text, it is from the Wings.

Usually there is a section in the front of your translation that describes the I Ching texts and how the translator intends to handle them.

[bradford]

Can someone set me straight?
Looking back and forth between my translations, I'm seeing that some of the text isn't even included in some translations (such as the "Image").


Texts of the Zhouyi
Gua Ci, the original or Zhou Yi Hexagram Text
Yao Ci, the original or Zhou Yi Changing Line Text, numbers 1-6

The Ten Wings
Tuan Zhuan, or Commentary on the Judgment, the 1st and 2nd Wings or Appendices
Da Xiang, or Overall Image, part of the 3rd and 4th Wings
Xiao Xiang, or Little Images, part of the 3rd and 4th Wings
Xi Ci Zhuan, the Commentary on the Appended Phrases, a.k.a. Da Zhuan, the Great Commentary, the 5th and 6th Wings
Wen Yan Zhuan, Commentary on Words of the Text, the 7th Wing
Shuo Gua, the Explanation of the Trigrams, the 8th Wing
Xu Gua, the Sequence of the Hexagrams, the 9th Wing
Za Gua, the Assorted or Miscellaneous Hexagrams, the 10th Wing

[thinbuddha]

Texts of the Zhouyi
Gua Ci, the original or Zhou Yi Hexagram Text
Yao Ci, the original or Zhou Yi Changing Line Text, numbers 1-6

Is the Gua Ci the "Judgement" that Wilhelm translates (in hex 1) as "THE CREATIVE works sublime success, Furthering through perseverance."?

[bradford]

Is the Gua Ci the "Judgement" that Wilhelm translates (in hex 1) as "THE CREATIVE works sublime success, Furthering through perseverance."?

Si señor
Also called the Tuan or the Judgment
The Yao Ci are the main line texts like "Hidden dragon, do not act"

[thinbuddha]

Thanks-

I thought this was teh case until I saw the Cleary translation (hardcover - Shambhala). It has only the text of the changing lines in bold font. The Gua Ci is in non-bold italics. Nothing from the wings is included. I'm not sure what the logic is in the way they chose to make only the changing lines bold.