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einhverfr
19-09-2008, 05:19
Interested in theories as to why astrology gets results.

Nevada
19-09-2008, 05:50
Perhaps the answer is as simple as: We live in an interdependent universe.

Nevada

einhverfr
19-09-2008, 06:09
Perhaps the answer is as simple as: We live in an interdependent universe.


Then what would the mechanism be?

Nevada
19-09-2008, 08:10
Then what would the mechanism be?I have no idea. I'm just along for the ride. :D

What is the mechanism that makes gravity work? Or the lights come on when I turn the switch? My best guess is an intricate clockwork combination of energies: gravity, mass, magnetism, subtle energies we know nothing of, and a little nudge from Higher Intelligence. All I know is that it works. That's enough for me. I don't have to know all the answers. I don't think my pea brain could contain them if I did.

The best physicists in the world haven't figured everything out yet.

Your question reminds me of the movie, "Shakespeare in Love," in which events kept making it seem the play would never go on. The owner of the theater kept saying it would all work out. Whenever he said that, someone would ask, "How?" He would shake his head and say, "I don't know. It's a mystery." But the play came together and the audience loved it.

Nevada

einhverfr
19-09-2008, 08:16
At least people are theorizing about gravity, and we know the basic ideas of how electricity works. And what happens when you turn on the switch is different in a flashlight than in an AC light fixture in your house :-).

My own thinking though is that the simplest explanation for astrology is the framework that Plato came up with in Timaeus, but it demands that we don't think about this in terms of energies or influences.

Nevada
19-09-2008, 10:11
I don't think I understood what you're asking in this thread. I took your first question as wondering what the physical mechanism is that causes astrology to get results. You even mention "mechanism" in your second post.
My own thinking though is that the simplest explanation for astrology is the framework that Plato came up with in Timaeus, but it demands that we don't think about this in terms of energies or influences.I do think the dialog is a good philosophical theory about rebirth and why we might be born under a particular astrological influence -- though the "mechanics" are by necessity archaic.

By the way, for anyone else reading this, the dialog einhverfr mentions can be found here:

http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/timaeus.html

Nevada

einhverfr
19-09-2008, 16:40
The way I look at astrology and Timaeus is simple:

The human soul and the world have the same structure (8 bands, the band of the fixed stars being the same, and the seven bands of the planets being different).

The human soul is super-imposed on the world but the 7 bands are essentially impressed at the moment of birth. Thus astrology measures *internal* changes by an external system (planetary motion) which is really superimposed on the internal system.

In this way the stars neither impel nor compel but rather manifest. Depending on our choices we *may* have the ability to determine to some extent *how* they manifest.

einhverfr
20-09-2008, 03:26
I guess the way I look at it is more like synchronized clocks.

Just because you get hungry around the time that the clock strikes twelve doesn't mean that the clock makes you hungry :-)

Nevada
20-09-2008, 06:02
I like those encapsulations you've provided, and I've often thought of astrology as a kind of clock, just had never thought of our relation to it as more than one synchronized clock. But that makes sense, otherwise we'd just be imprisoned in the one clock with no control at all over our lives.

Nevada

ravenest
20-09-2008, 12:21
In this way the stars neither impel nor compel but rather manifest. Depending on our choices we *may* have the ability to determine to some extent *how* they manifest.

Many of the 'prominant' astrologers on this forum would deny that the stars have anything to do with astrology (except one star - the sun). Looking for a mechanism then will tend NOT to get you a straight answer.

However I disagree with them, seeing astrology relating directly to the influence of the stars.

In my mechanistic view the constellations (and other areas of space - the Australian Aboriginals also use the dark spaces between the stars and their shapes - ie. the dust clouds that obscure the light of the stars) have certain energies and beings attributed to / residing in them. These are the emination 'points'.

The objects within the solar system act as lenses and reflect and focus and modify these energies as they pass through and around them. Different angular relationships modify the forces.

In tropical astrology (which does not use stars) the objects within the solar system are grouped in devisions (astrological signs or segments of 30 deg.) which relate to the movement of the earth around the sun - hence seasonal. We could postulate a 'mechanism' for this; if you are in the South hemisphere and a 'Cancer', you were born in winter. I would suggest a baby born in winter is going to have a different first 3 months (prob the most crucial) than one born in summer ( Thats a very materialistic mechanism for you).

One could go further and look at the influence of the Moon and its effects on gravity and the resutant response in the human psyche Bartoloms (? I think it's called) gland in the brain can be sensative to minute fluctuations in the earths geomagnetic field due to its interior of tiny floating magnetised crystals ( many indigenous people still have this sense but most of us have lost it due to EM pollution).

Just some ideas. I thought I'd throw it open instead of just putting you off, as I think it is a good question and need not be just swept under the carpet.

However I am coming from a VERY broad definition of Astrology and not the specific ones that seem to sometimes apply here and perhaps with yourself? if you are interested in a broader field, you might need to go to other traditions to get a more satisfactory answer.
R.

tarotlyn
20-09-2008, 12:49
This may be different...but simple:

I think the bible says something like: "there is a tiime for every man under the sun"

I always say that "when you were born" that someone ran outside (if you were born inside:D)
and took a "picture" of the heavens at the exact time you were being born.
That picture is a picture "of your soul"..."your potential" in this lifetime.

And yes it is a giant clock of your soul pattern. As you age and grow, the hands
move and when they get to certain "sensitive spots" in your picutre it times
events in your life.

Now all of the planets in your "birth soul picture" did move out of their original
places (from birth) and keep moving around the clock until they activate those
"sensitive spots" ... the same sensitive spots from their original places at the
exact time you were born.

It takes about 26,000 years before the planets would ever line up exactly like
your picture again! That is why some of us are similar...but no one is exactly
like we are because we are one in 26,000 years!!! :laugh:

I am an old astrologer!:D
p.s. I know it is MUCH deeper than that...but I have found my description
"helps" answer most inquisitive people.

Hephasteus
28-09-2008, 18:54
The way I look at astrology and Timaeus is simple:

The human soul and the world have the same structure (8 bands, the band of the fixed stars being the same, and the seven bands of the planets being different).

The human soul is super-imposed on the world but the 7 bands are essentially impressed at the moment of birth. Thus astrology measures *internal* changes by an external system (planetary motion) which is really superimposed on the internal system.

In this way the stars neither impel nor compel but rather manifest. Depending on our choices we *may* have the ability to determine to some extent *how* they manifest.

Well an atomic model also fits. If you look at phsyics of an atom the internal electron shells on bigger atoms are simply the property of the atom. The external electrons can be given up to larger systems and affected by larger systems but on bigger atoms you can drive enormously powerful particles into them without them losing thier coherent structures. This is sort of the internally balanced setup. In astrology that would be sun mercury mars moon and venus. In astrology there are various harmonies between the sun and those planets. Moon not so much though. But mercury can never be more than 28 degrees away from your sun so it's either in your sun sign or sign before or after. Same with mars and venus they can never really be too far away from the sign that you sun is in. But moon can be wildly different than the signs of your internal planets and internal self.

Gateway from internal to external include both saturn and jupiter. This is the iffy part of things between your core energies of who you are and how you act on external world and external world acts on you.

The outer planets are pure external forces and represent various right brain functions of how we interact. Uranus is the most personal though because it is tied intimately to sun through the sign oppositions of aquarius-leo. Aquarius are groupings within groupings and Leo is how we express our slightly more complete sense of self to the various groups we are in. Neptune is a bigger sense of completeness that really includes all forms of life. Pluto is the power struggles between larger forces than us and our internal power.

There's sign entanglments. Every sign is intimately tied to its opposition and therefore every planet is intimately tied to other planets. Aries ties mars to venus through libra. Taurus ties venus to pluto through scorpio. Gemini ties mercury to jupiter through sagitarius. Cancer ties moon to saturn through capricorn. Leo ties sun to uranus through aquarius. Virgo ties mercury to neptune through pisces. The pairs exist pretty much independently but also include triples as mercury to jupiter AND neptune. And venus ties to mars and pluto.
This sets up some confusion that isn't sorted at all in how it works with astrology with lots of redundancies. Like taurus being heavily associated with transformation in mythology. Well it's heavily assoicated with it not because of venus but because of its opposition scorpio and pluto.
Cancer is associated with form and giving form to the formless but it's intimately tied to saturn so in saturn and capricorn we call it structure or crystalization of form etc.
Leo's ego and sense of self really has no bearing on anything until leo interacts with a group.
Most confused is the mercury groupings. Neptune is pure merging of totality the complete lack of groupings or any sense of self and other and typified best by the myth of the dolphin who lies down and dies with the boy. Since we can't operate that way at all mercury gives virgo hugely discriminating functions. Virgo can be associated with judging other people and so can neptune and pisces but those functions don't actually occur in either of those planets or signs they occur in sagitarius and jupiter which is concerned with jusifitying our actions and judgements and justifying other peoples actions and judgements and making laws etc. Jupiter is consequently associated with medicine in some ways but those actually occur through virgo and pisces.

The connectivity of matter and energy is strange in how it works for internal and external. The planets on inner orbits close to the sun stir up the coronal layer of the sun which affects how energy deep within the sun gets out. The internal planets set up a swirl motion that makes the corona move faster at the equator of the sun than on the poles. Mercury retrograde is important because when it goes retro it changes where the earth is on the "wake" of energy that mercury stirs up in the sun. When it's retro we are ahead of the wake and should be able to think clearer but it slightly disbalances our left brain right brain functioning and has opposite affect. Now you have to remember also that matter and energy only interact with other matter and energy so theres huge amounts of energy coming INTO our solar system from the galaxy. We are actually about smack in the middle of two spikes out of 4 (maybe 6) that exist in the milky way. The positioning of the outer planets affect how energy coming from those two spikes is channeled in to our solar system and also how energy coming from galactic center impinges on us.
I can go on and on about this but I'll stop there. There's probably going to be questions.

Rosanne
28-09-2008, 19:30
It is interesting to read what other people have concluded about subjects like Astrology. Good on you for asking einhverfr.
I do not understand the 'science' of Astrology- but have been interested in Astronomy- it seems forever.
My thoughts are that it works as a model because of the long history of observation. It would seem that since recording has been noted, that when planets for instance have passed through a sign- people born or grouped under that happening have similar characteristics, and events seem more likely to occur. There have been many recorded apparent relationships between 'up' there and 'down' here. So it would seem that human life is affected by 'up' there.
There is plenty of anecdotal evidence of this. Moods affected by the Moon is one. The fact that we have moved into Aquarius in the wobbly procession and we are getting plenty of Water- in the rains/floods and storms. Although much is made of global warming- we are out there in Aquarius and I would expect more water. So I think to a great degree, it works like all observations over a very long period- and Astrology is one of the longest, if not the longest observations we have.
In my pseudo scientific thoughts (because I don't know the science) I would imagine it is something to do with energy pulses- because everything vibrates and maybe I match my position with a Virgo vibration.
~Rosanne