Thoth Tarot and a Magical Career

ravenest

08-10-2008, 13:08

[QUOTE=Rosanne]Because I have been asked, and I do not know the answer, for those who have asked - maybe this thread will get you an answer.
I request that if you post, please play nice. It makes me very nervous to post in this forum- but as far as Tarot is concerned it is worth the risk.

How do people who belong to O.T.O. or Thelema for example use the Thoth Tarot?

IN A MULTITUDE OF WAYS, SOME HAVE BEEN OUTLINED IN VARIOUS POSTS IN VARIOUS PLACES ON THE FORUM.

Is it used as a reading deck?

I DO, BUT THAT IS IT'S LEAST VALUE, IT IS A BOOK OF VERY RELEVENT MAGICAL INFORMATIUON AND RELATIONSHIPS ON MANY LEVELS OFFERING ADVISE ON HOW TO DEAL WITH MANY SITUATIONS AND EXPERIENCES,

Is it used as a visual text?

IT CAN BE

Is it used as a meditative device?

MOST DEFINATLY

Is it copied as in drawn or painted for a personal deck Like B.O.T.A?

SOMETIMES

Is there some sort of ritual associated with it?

YES

What makes the deck Magical in the use of it?

NOT SURE I UNDERSTAND THE QUESTION, DO YOU MEAN THE RITUAL RECCOMMENDED TO GO WITH THE READING OF THE CARDS?

Is it a visual example of Grades and steps? (not sure I have said that correctly)

NOT SURE WHAT YOU MEAN BY 'VISUAL EXAMPLE' THE OTO HAS THREE GRADES; THE MAN OF EARTH, THE LOVERS AND THE HERMIT. TWO HAVE AN OBVIOUS CONNECTION. 'STEPS' IN OTO MEAN A FORM OF RECOGNITION, PERHAPS YOU MEAN DEGREES?

These are just a few of the questions raised to me (the totally wrong person my friends!) and maybe there are more 'right questions' but I think most will get my meaning and query. I am not a member of any group or society. Nor is this query a prurient peep for gossip about such groups- nor a discussion on the members or leaders and their worth (this is a really important thing to take note of) - just a wish for information.

IN THE LATEST LIBER ABA BOOK IV - MAGICK IN THEORY AND PRACTICE, THERE IS AN OUTLINED CURRICULUM OF THE STUDY OF THE OTO. THAT MIGHT HELP.

THERE IS NO DIRECT TEACHING IN OTO (WHICH EXISTS ONLY IN THE DEGREE INITIATION TEMPLES AND THE GNOSTIC MASS TEMPLE) RELATING TO THOTH TAROT AND IT'S USES, MOST OF THE ABOVE WOULD BE VIA THE DEVELOPMENT OF THE LOCAL OTO GROUP, THEY ARE FAIRLY INDEPENDANT AND FOLLOW THEIR OWN PATHS (ASIDE FROM THE ABOVE MENTIONED TEACHINGS) AND METHODS.

SOME MAY NOT EVEN READ TAROT AT ALL!

SORRY I AM TOO SLACK TO DO THE QUOTEY THING PROPERLY ... TIME RESTRAINTS.

STILL NERVOUS?

Rosanne

08-10-2008, 13:22

( Nervous?) Nah Ravenest- thanks for the information.
~Rosanne

Oops read the answer properly Rosanne I mean degrees- Yes!
and the the ritual that goes with reading the cards- yes! I hope those reading this will go get that latest writing from Liber Aba Book 1V if they can.

Rosanne

08-10-2008, 14:57

Is there some sort of ritual associated with it?

YES

What makes the deck Magical in the use of it?

NOT SURE I UNDERSTAND THE QUESTION, DO YOU MEAN THE RITUAL RECCOMMENDED TO GO WITH THE READING OF THE CARDS?

Is there anywhere- aside from joining one of these groups, one can read about this ritual recommended to go with reading the cards? Is there any books written about the magical ritual of such groups?

IN THE LATEST LIBER ABA BOOK IV - MAGICK IN THEORY AND PRACTICE, THERE IS AN OUTLINED CURRICULUM OF THE STUDY OF THE OTO. THAT MIGHT HELP.

Does one write to O.T.O. to acquire this book 1V?

~Rosanne

sapienza

08-10-2008, 14:57

Really interesting questions Rosanne, I'm also curious. Reading the thread on 'how to appreciate Crowley' has left me feeling rather uneducated in all things to do with the Thoth deck.

Grigori

08-10-2008, 15:11

Is there anywhere- aside from joining one of these groups, one can read about this ritual recommended to go with reading the cards? Is there any books written about the magical ritual of such groups?

I think Ravenest was referring to the Opening of the Key reading technique, which is a GD method. Crowley outlines it in the Book of Thoth. I'd be interested to hear about other publications detailing rituals based on the deck. I know a lot of Crowley's rituals are based on Vision and the Voice, his efforts as scrying the Enochian Aethyrs, and I think a number of the cards ar based on the same visions. That would be really interesting to learn more about.

Does one write to O.T.O. to acquire this book 1V?

Its a retail book, you can get it in many stores (even Borders and such often have it) http://www.amazon.com/Magick-Liber-Aba-Book-Bk/dp/0877289190/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1223442523&sr=8-2 This is the new edition which has a lot of supplementary information which is useful. Its Crowley's Magnum Opus on Magick, and quite a hefty read :D

Rosanne

08-10-2008, 15:25

Thanks Similia :D that clears that up- I thought it might be different to the Book of Thoth. Not sure I can wade through another read of even an updated Opus on Magic- but others might :D

Now is the opportunity for those who asked me questions I am not qualified to answer regarding magical groups etc to ask here. See- there are reasonable, approachable people who will answer factually. Great.
~Rosanne

Grigori

08-10-2008, 15:43

Thanks Similia :D that clears that up- I thought it might be different to the Book of Thoth. Not sure I can wade through another read of even an updated Opus on Magic- but others might :D

:laugh: It is actually a really interesting read, though I admit to having skipped large sections (though others I have read repeatedly). It is a bit bigger than the phone book after all, with smallish print.

When I first bought it, I opened to the section on the Wand, expecting a "how to make" guide for ritual implements. Instead I got the best thing Crowley ever published on the suit of Wands, though he wasn't discussing tarot at all. But if your key interest is the tarot (as I know yours is) then it's not the book for you.

I reponse to your initial question, I'm not a member of the OTO, or a Thelemite, however I appreciate and am interested in their philosophy. I use the Thoth tarot for readings primarily, secondarily as a meditation tool, or bedside table decoration if there is something I want to keep fresh in my mind. Occasionally I use individual cards ritually as talismans.

Oh, and very occasionally as a card game :D

Aeon418

08-10-2008, 20:49

Is it used as a reading deck?
Yes. But not only for the purpose of obtaining answers to questions. It is also an excellent tool for the development of intuition.

In Crowley's other iniatory structure, the A.'.A.'., divination was placed on the path of Qoph.
Is it used as a visual text?
Yes. Crowley himself refers to the Thoth tarot as a series of illustrations to The Book of the Law.
Is it used as a meditative device?
Yes. It can, and is, used for meditation. Not only that it is used as a tool for clairvoyance or skrying. This is based in the idea that each of the trumps is a visual representation of an aspect of your own consciousness. Using the specific imagery of the cards to induce a vision is a way of revealing yourself to yourself.
Is it copied as in drawn or painted for a personal deck Like B.O.T.A?
I have seen B&W versions of the Thoth that were intended to used in that way.
Is there some sort of ritual associated with it?
Not that I'm aware of. I suppose you could describe the Opening of the Key spread as ritualistic.

Some people like to perform a banishing and a short invocation ritual before reading though.
What makes the deck Magical in the use of it?
I don't understand the question. Could you clarify or expand upon it?
Is it a visual example of Grades and steps? (not sure I have said that correctly)
Yes. This is from the A.'.A.'. system. Notice how the paths of initiation, and the individual steps taken, directly relate to Tarot.
http://www.hermetic.com/crowley/images/large-abiegnus.jpg

thorhammer

08-10-2008, 21:01

*raises hand*Now is the opportunity for those who asked me questions I am not qualified to answer regarding magical groups etc to ask here. See- there are reasonable, approachable people who will answer factually. Great.
~RosanneIt was me :) Thankyou, Rosanne, for starting this thread.

I approached Rosanne because we've had a few PM exchanges in the past and I find her very friendly and approachable.

My question was inspired by a couple of things - notably the heated conversation in the Appreciating Crowley thread, but also a burgeoning interest in studying the Crowley/Harris Thoth. I am possibly a bit more interested than Rosanne in delving into the depths of magical theory contained in, and implied by, the deck.

BUT

I have noted what I perceive to be a dearth of deep technical discussion in the Thoth Study Group forum, and that makes me wonder - is there a reason for this lack? Because I know there are a few people on AT who use the deck very seriously, and not just for readings, but as part of the whole worldview inherent in Crowley's work. It made me wonder why these people don't share their wisdom. I want to learn about the complexities of the deck, but having explored this forum, I keep hitting this black glass wall that deftly deflects attention deeper into the maze of mirrors which leads . . . out. Nowhere.

There are some really fantastic posts in this forum, which have highlighted to me the depths possible. I'd really like to see some more open discussion of this topic, where people like myself (and if I may, sapienza? :heart:) may begin to learn more about the deck.

And if such discussion is not *allowed*, then I'd appreciate someone telling me that.

\m/ Kat

PS. Thanks again, Rosanne :heart:

thorhammer

08-10-2008, 21:57

:laugh: It is actually a really interesting read, though I admit to having skipped large sections (though others I have read repeatedly). It is a bit bigger than the phone book after all, with smallish print.

When I first bought it, I opened to the section on the Wand, expecting a "how to make" guide for ritual implements. Instead I got the best thing Crowley ever published on the suit of Wands, though he wasn't discussing tarot at all. But if your key interest is the tarot (as I know yours is) then it's not the book for you.

I reponse to your initial question, I'm not a member of the OTO, or a Thelemite, however I appreciate and am interested in their philosophy. I use the Thoth tarot for readings primarily, secondarily as a meditation tool, or bedside table decoration if there is something I want to keep fresh in my mind. Occasionally I use individual cards ritually as talismans.

Oh, and very occasionally as a card game :D
I'm interested in this book now, similia :) I must hunt a copy down . . . when finances allow :D

\m/ Kat

Grigori

08-10-2008, 21:58

And if such discussion is not *allowed*, then I'd appreciate someone telling me that.

Those sort of discussions are the reason for having a Thoth forum, and the possibilities hopefully expanded by the recent creation of the Golden Dawn sub-forum (http://www.tarotforum.net/forumdisplay.php?f=135), where the magical approaches to tarots of related original are welcomed as well as the non-tarot aspects of those traditions. The GD-sub forum was created to make such discussions possible, outside of the confines of the Spirituality forum, which is focussed in other areas/practices. Thelema specific conversation are best in the Thoth section, various Golden Dawn related magical approaches can go in the GD sub-forum.

It would be great to have new Thoth students posting threads with questions. There are I think currently a small number of people with a lot of experience in those areas, and of course they are all busy people so aren't here all the time starting threads designed to teach the rest of us. But a few meaty discussions on the actual deck would I think be like honey to a bee (I hope) :D

Rosanne

08-10-2008, 22:04

Thats OK Thorhammer! This is for you and the others who asked exactly the same things as you. You are right- I am not interested in this avenue as much as others seem to be- horses for courses and all that. Much of what Aeon418 has replied I do with Tarot anyway. Just a different emphasis. Thanks for your reply Aeon418 - it pleases me there is only a perceived silence on these things- it is not a reality. (No secret society of hocus pocus- that is a male only/ female only domain- commonly referred to as the Boy's Club or the Woo Woo Sisterhood) If magical practice is your thing with Tarot- the information should be here somewhere with all the expertise on the forum.
My march is to a different drum- I want people to stop believing that Tarot is used by crazy people, social misfits and con artists. That's the magic I am looking for.... so debunking spells you can pass on to me.
Travel well in your quest.
~Rosanne

Aeon418

08-10-2008, 22:48

:laugh: It is actually a really interesting read, though I admit to having skipped large sections (though others I have read repeatedly). It is a bit bigger than the phone book after all, with smallish print.
Similia, have you noticed that part 3 of Book IV (Magick in Theory and Practice) contains 22 chapters? An important number and a major clue to any Tarot reader exploring that book.
When I first bought it, I opened to the section on the Wand, expecting a "how to make" guide for ritual implements. Instead I got the best thing Crowley ever published on the suit of Wands, though he wasn't discussing tarot at all.
You've just hit the nail on the head as to why it is often difficult to fully explain the Thoth. Quite often the ideas behind the cards appear to have absolutely nothing in common with the cards themselves. The chapter on the Wand, that you just mentioned, is full of stuff about the Magical Will, Oaths, Magical Discipline, One pointedness, concentration practices, Samadhi, etc. On the surface they appear to have nothing in common. But they are all aiming at the same target. The same target which is represented in tarot as the suit of Wands and the metaphysical element of Fire.

Grigori

08-10-2008, 23:02

Similia, have you noticed that part 3 of Book IV (Magick in Theory and Practice) contains 22 chapters? An important number and a major clue to any Tarot reader exploring that book.

haha I did not notice that myself I must admit, but it was pointed out to me previously and I was embaressed then also. Part 2 & 3 I have read in detail and repeatedly referred to, supplemented by other books by "modern" authors. I bought Book4 when my interest moved to the more magical topics, so they were the sections I was immediately interested in studying.

Part 1 I have skimmed/skipped as I know little about yoga, and felt that I would benefit from a flesh and blood class to begin with. Finding such a class is on my to-do-list.... still.... Though I understand that skipping the beginning part and jumping to the middle is not what is generally recommended.

Part 4 on the Book of Law I have only read through, am still working on understanding it, especially the later parts. The first part from Nuit has been the area I've more easily related to the Tarot and my own experiences. I'm allowing myself another couple of years to work on that bit though also :D

Aeon418

08-10-2008, 23:49

0 The Magical Theory of the Universe. - The Fool

I The Principles of Ritual. - The Magus

II The Formulae of the Elemental Weapons. - The Priestess

III The Formula of Tetragrammaton. - The Empress

IV The Formula of Alhim: also that of Alim. - The Star

V The Formula of I. A. O. - The Hierophant

VI The Formula of the Neophyte. - The Lovers

VII The Formula of the Holy Graal, of Abrahadabra, and of Certain Other Words; with some remarks on the Magical Memory. - The Chariot

VIII Of Equilibrium: and of the General and Particular Method of Preparation of the Furniture of the Temple and the Instruments of Art. - Adjustment

IX Of Silence and Secrecy: and of the Barbarous names of Evocation. - The Hermit

X Of the Gestures. - Fortune

XI Of Our Lady BABALON and of The Beast whereon she rideth: also concerning Transformations. - Lust

XII Of the Bloody Sacrifice and Matters Cognate. - The Hanged Man

XIII Of the Banishings, and of the Purifications. - Death

XIV Of the Consecrations: with an Account of the Nature and Nurture of the Magical Link. - Art

XVI (1) Of the Oath. - The Tower (Binding restriction)

XV Of the Invocation. The Devil

XVI (2) Of the Charge to the Spirit: with some Account of the Constraints and Curses occasionally necessary. - The Tower (Blasted Tower)

XVII Of the License to Depart. - The Emperor

XVIII Of Clairvoyance: and of the Body of Light, its Powers and its Development. Also concerning Divinations. - The Moon

XIX Of Dramatic Rituals. - The Sun

XX Of the Eucharist: and of the Art of Alchemy. - The Aeon

XXI Of Black Magick: of the Main Types of the Operations of Magick Art: and of the Powers of the Sphinx. - The Universe

thorhammer

09-10-2008, 08:55

It would be great to have new Thoth students posting threads with questions. There are I think currently a small number of people with a lot of experience in those areas, and of course they are all busy people so aren't here all the time starting threads designed to teach the rest of us. But a few meaty discussions on the actual deck would I think be like honey to a bee (I hope) :D
I absolutely realise that they're busy people, of course, and don't expect a whole teaching course.

I'll endeavour to write down all the thousands of questions that pop into my head while reading Crowley, and boil them down to a few intelligent ones :D to post in here as I go. I hope it draws a crowd, too :)

\m/ Kat

thorhammer

09-10-2008, 08:59

My march is to a different drum- I want people to stop believing that Tarot is used by crazy people, social misfits and con artists. That's the magic I am looking for.... so debunking spells you can pass on to me.
Travel well in your quest.
~Rosanne
I promise to pass on all debunking spells that I come across :laugh:

\m/ Kat

thorhammer

09-10-2008, 09:02

You've just hit the nail on the head as to why it is often difficult to fully explain the Thoth. Quite often the ideas behind the cards appear to have absolutely nothing in common with the cards themselves. The chapter on the Wand, that you just mentioned, is full of stuff about the Magical Will, Oaths, Magical Discipline, One pointedness, concentration practices, Samadhi, etc. On the surface they appear to have nothing in common. But they are all aiming at the same target. The same target which is represented in tarot as the suit of Wands and the metaphysical element of Fire.
And that's the kind of insight I'm talking about! See, now I know to read that section of that book with half a mind on the Wands . . . thanks, Aeon and similia :)

Aeon - I realise that this isn't something that can be directly explained, and as such I'm not looking for a guru. I'm not after sitting at someone's feet, soaking up their wisdom :laugh: . . . it's discussion I'm after, and bouncing ideas back and forth, just like this. And that list of books and their correspondence to cards is awesome. Thanks :)

\m/ Kat

sapienza

09-10-2008, 10:01

There are some really fantastic posts in this forum, which have highlighted to me the depths possible. I'd really like to see some more open discussion of this topic, where people like myself (and if I may, sapienza? :heart:) may begin to learn more about the deck.

Thanks Kat. I'm also feeling very new and rather overwhelmed just now. Despite working with tarot for over ten years, since picking up the Thoth I feel like a complete beginner again.....which is both scary and exciting :) I follow the threads in this forum but seldom contribute because I feel that I have nothing of much value to add. I'm pleased there are a few other 'new to Thoth' people around (Kat :)) just now.

Rosanne

09-10-2008, 10:04

Oh my snobbyness is going to come to the fore here Thorhammer :D
It directly relates to the magic/magick I am searching for- and that ain't Crowley. Not to cast aspersions on your quest- nay not at all. He is one of the social misfits that I think has damaged (in the public's eye) how people view Tarot in the wider community. Nothing to do with his words- which generally are not read outside communities like this- except in a gossipy like way to prove that Tarot is bad, or a rock band needs Satan etc etc. He has for many become a cult figure and the bad that he did lives long after him.....wish it was the good that he doth do that live long after him.
Now my name is on this thread....ain't life ironic?
I did not want this thread to become a discussion on Crowley as this is how passions get raised and we get into spats. Then the thread becomes derailed by personality conflicts and particular areas of interest.
I officially hand this thread over to you...... or You can now start one called a Magic Career (or anything you like) and I will ask for the moderator to incorporate this thread into one with your name on it. Howsat????
Makes me happy- makes you happy and your questions can be answered- which they will be.....no ggggnashing of teeth.
~Rosanne

Rosanne

09-10-2008, 12:40

Really interesting questions Thorhammer :D :D D:
Aint computer magick wonderful!

Thought I might add this for your consideration
The library may have this book, that I found interesting and you can read about the Authors on the Web
Hidden Lore: The Carfax Monographs by Kenneth and Steffi Graph. (Essays)

And my other passion is poetry and read something about WB Yeats. (That was how I first heard or knew about the Golden Dawn.) It is said that Yeats learned through the Golden Dawn to consolidate his visions and create a magical vehicle that would carry his ambition towards fame. It seems to have worked because he received the Nobel prize for Literature.
~Rosanne

Aeon418

09-10-2008, 17:43

And that list of books and their correspondence to cards is awesome.
It wasn't a list of books. It was a list of chapters within a particular book* and how they correspond to the Tarot cards.

*Part 3 of Book IV - aka Magick in Theory and Practice.

thorhammer

10-10-2008, 09:24

It wasn't a list of books. It was a list of chapters within a particular book* and how they correspond to the Tarot cards.

*Part 3 of Book IV - aka Magick in Theory and Practice.
Ah. I see . . . it's the Roman numerals. Certain things confuse my mind, including accounting, physics, Roman numerals and fashion. This is the book that similia was talking about.

Thankyou :)

\m/ Kat

ravenest

10-10-2008, 12:26

Is there anywhere- aside from joining one of these groups, one can read about this ritual recommended to go with reading the cards? Is there any books written about the magical ritual of such groups?
The 'ritual' is the one A.C. wrote in the Book of Thoth at the back, how to do a reading starting with the invocation of the Angel of the Tarot, etc. It has been the subject of a few discussions here.

Does one write to O.T.O. to acquire this book 1V?
~Rosanne
I don't think so ... just try a bookshop or ebay or something ... has it become unavailable?

Non of this is as 'mysterious' as you might have been led to believe ;)

ravenest

10-10-2008, 12:38

I have noted what I perceive to be a dearth of deep technical discussion in the Thoth Study Group forum, and that makes me wonder - is there a reason for this lack?
Serious? Gosh I thought the forum was full of it, raves about Princesses on thrones of Aces and a whole complex cosmolgy related to that, Tzaddi is not the star, etc etc. Are'nt they all over the place. Haven't we been deep enough for you? :laugh:

I thought people were dropping out of discussions because some of us get OVERLY (and overtly ;) ) technical! ... Gosh! I hope it wasn't becasue we were boring.

T.H. ... mate! Fire away, ask what you will. If I think it's too full on to respond publicly I'll PM you.
R.

ravenest

10-10-2008, 12:40

I'm interested in this book now, similia :) I must hunt a copy down . . . when finances allow :D

\m/ Kat

I might have an old spare one that you could borrow if you want.

ravenest

10-10-2008, 12:51

haha I did not notice that myself I must admit, but it was pointed out to me previously and I was embaressed then also.
What ... twice ? :laugh: (You sound like me.)

Part 1 I have skimmed/skipped as I know little about yoga, and felt that I would benefit from a flesh and blood class to begin with. Finding such a class is on my to-do-list.... still.... Though I understand that skipping the beginning part and jumping to the middle is not what is generally recommended.
Especially under A.C.'s yoga instruction! His approach is quiet rad. I have heard it severley NOT recommended by a senior OTO member who is also a quiet accomplished Yogi.

Part 4 on the Book of Law I have only read through, am still working on understanding it, especially the later parts. The first part from Nuit has been the area I've more easily related to the Tarot and my own experiences. I'm allowing myself another couple of years to work on that bit though also :D

Ah ... Nuit! Yeah that's the good stuff - Check out Liber NV too, a bunch of practices along that 'Nuit line'. For me, Nuit is the 'religious' part of the book, that is, I base my personal religious expression on it. Whereas other parts of the Book (like R.H.K.), I take as part prophecy and part 'told-you-so'. Or, if you like, practicing what is in part 1 deflects what is in part 3 - if the ritual is not ever devoted unto Nuit then expect the direful judgement of R.H.K.. (or something like that)

Aeon418

10-10-2008, 19:07

Whereas other parts of the Book (like R.H.K.), I take as part prophecy and part 'told-you-so'. Or, if you like, practicing what is in part 1 deflects what is in part 3 - if the ritual is not ever devoted unto Nuit then expect the direful judgement of R.H.K.. (or something like that)
I agree up to a point. But I personally don't view the 3rd chapter as prophecy only. Particularly when that chapter clearly states that there are at least 4 levels of interpretation. I'm inclined to regard prophecy of events as a lower (possibly the lowest) form of interpretation, almost to the point of being overly literal and potentially misleading.

Liber AL describes two kinds of worship (two cults if you will). Nuit and R.H.K.
R.H.K. is the archetype of the HGA. Replacing the old archetype of the slain and resurrected god represented by Osiris.
The reward of R.H.K. is Abrahadabra. He is also described as the "visible object of worship", which makes sense when you remeber that he is identified with the Sun. The solar worship aspect of Thelema is a metaphor for the HGA - the inner Sun or Solar self. But this only applies below the level of K&C of HGA. Once you are fully identified with the Sun, this Solar Self, then the body of Nuit becomes visible. To carry on the metaphor, you can't see infinite space while you are being blinded by the Sun. But become the Sun and the light disappears and is replaced by the darkness of space.
I am the visible object of worship; the others are secret; for the Beast & his Bride are they: and for the winners of the Ordeal x.
Food for thought.....

Ordeal x = K&C?

I am a god of War (VAR - AVR - Light) and of Vengeance (Energy).

thorhammer

10-10-2008, 19:16

Serious? Gosh I thought the forum was full of it, raves about Princesses on thrones of Aces and a whole complex cosmolgy related to that, Tzaddi is not the star, etc etc. Are'nt they all over the place. Haven't we been deep enough for you? :laugh:

I thought people were dropping out of discussions because some of us get OVERLY (and overtly ;) ) technical! ... Gosh! I hope it wasn't becasue we were boring.

T.H. ... mate! Fire away, ask what you will. If I think it's too full on to respond publicly I'll PM you.
R.
:) I've seen those posts, yes, and they're the ones that piqued my interest! The thing is, many times the discussion stops there without much in the way of extension or interpretations . . . and I come away with more questions thatn answers ;).

Mind you, all this cufuffle has been stirred up, and a concomitant rise in the demands of my work life mean that I'm going to struggle to get a strike in while the iron's still hot :laugh: But I'll try to get some serious reading in this weekend, and get some questions happening.I might have an old spare one that you could borrow if you want.:) Thankyou . . . PM coming :)

\m/ Kat

thorhammer

10-10-2008, 19:23

*pounces*Liber AL describes two kinds of worship (two cults if you will). Nuit and R.H.K.
R.H.K. is the archetype of the HGA. Replacing the old archetype of the slain and resurrected god represented by Osiris.What do R.H.K. and HGA stand for? (Is that a stupid question?)But become the Sun and the light disappears and is replaced by the darkness of space.I'm not even going to start on the rest of your post - I know that i've got reading ahead of me, so I'll just have to stoke the forge and warm the iron when I'm a bit more prepared :) I just wanted to say that this one statement is, indeed, food for thought . . . to me. I like it a lot.

\m/ Kat

Aeon418

10-10-2008, 21:08

What do R.H.K. and HGA stand for? (Is that a stupid question?)
No, don't worry. It's my fault for using shorthand jargon.

R.H.K. = Ra Hoor Khuit. HGA = Holy Guardian Angel.

R.H.K. is an archetype, a generic stand-in, for the HGA. The HGA is an anthropomorphization of a higher level of consciousness. It's what most people would call the "god within". The reason why it's useful to give a level of consciousness human-like form, is that it is very hard for most people to deal with abstract principles like Briatic consciousness. But give that principle a form and a name, and we can interact with it and relate to it.

People have used this principle for thousands of years. An example might be love. As an abstract quality it's a little hard to pin down. But give it a form, maybe of a goddess, and you've got something that is almost tangible that you can relate to. The HGA is similar to that, but much higher.

thorhammer

10-10-2008, 21:19

No, don't worry. It's my fault for using shorthand jargon.

R.H.K. = Ra Hoor Khuit. HGA = Holy Guardian Angel.

R.H.K. is an archetype, a generic stand-in, for the HGA. The HGA is an anthropomorphization of a higher level of consciousness. It's what most people would call the "god within". The reason why it's useful to give a level of consciousness human-like form, is that it is very hard for most people to deal with abstract principles like Briatic consciousness. But give that principle a form and a name, and we can interact with it and relate to it.

People have used this principle for thousands of years. An example might be love. As an abstract quality it's a little hard to pin down. But give it a form, maybe of a goddess, and you've got something that is almost tangible that you can relate to. The HGA is similar to that, but much higher.
Ah! How . . . illuminating :D to belabour a pun. That's very helpful, thankyou. Off to read on Abrahadabra now . . .

\m/ Kat

Aeon418

10-10-2008, 21:48

Off to read on Abrahadabra now . . .
Abrahadabra - Cheth - 418 - Atu 7 The Chariot.

The Charioteer in his golden (Solar) armour is another representation of the HGA. But if you could lift his vizor you would find nothing but deep, deep, infinite darkness. NOX - the Night of Pan. (This is also alluded to in the RWS deck, where a canopy of stars hangs above the charioteer.)

The human consciousness can just about deal with God in the form of the HGA. But the real, deeper mystery of it's nature would send you mad and blow your mind. This is represented by PAN, the god of divine madness. Is it any wonder that sages have nearly always been thought of as mad or crazy?

Atu 7 has been redrawn to reflect this in The Liber T Tarot.

Has anyone got a piccy?

thorhammer

10-10-2008, 22:18

Atu 7 has been redrawn to reflect this in The Liber T Tarot.

Has anyone got a piccy?
Yep, see below. Interesting stuff, Aeon. The idea of the darkness of infinity behind the visor intrigues me and I'll be thinking about this for a while.

\m/ Kat

Aeon418

10-10-2008, 22:26

The idea of the darkness of infinity behind the visor intrigues me and I'll be thinking about this for a while.
Thinking with the finite, rational mind about something that is beyond the rational mind - infinity. Have fun trying though.

thorhammer

10-10-2008, 23:07

Thinking with the finite, rational mind about something that is beyond the rational mind - infinity. Have fun trying though.
LOL You know what I mean :)

\m/ Kat

Aeon418

10-10-2008, 23:29

LOL You know what I mean :)
LOL ;)

But you are on the right track anyway. Going back to the Chariot card, it's Hebrew letter is Cheth, which means Fence, Wall, hedge, a shell, a citadel etc., etc. It's all pointing to limits, bounderies, and protection. This is one function of the HGA and it's relationship to the infinite. Without the HGA to act as intermediary it is, metaphorically speaking, like sticking your fingers in a electricity socket.

Nevada

11-10-2008, 05:08

Does one write to O.T.O. to acquire this book 1V?

Ah. I see . . . it's the Roman numerals. Certain things confuse my mind, including accounting, physics, Roman numerals and fashion. This is the book that similia was talking about.It can be found online, here:

http://www.hermetic.com/crowley/aba/

Thanks from me as well for that list, Aeon. I'm intrigued yet again.

Shoot, I may actually have to read more Crowley now... :bugeyed: (Never thought I'd hear myself think that.)

Nevada

kwaw

11-10-2008, 06:28

IV The Formula of Alhim: also that of Alim. - The Star
...
VIII Of Equilibrium: and of the General and Particular Method of Preparation of the Furniture of the Temple and the Instruments of Art. - Adjustment
...
XI Of Our Lady BABALON and of The Beast whereon she rideth: also concerning Transformations. - Lust
...
XVII Of the License to Depart. - The Emperor

If they follow the order of the cards, should not IV be Emperor and XVII Star?

If they followed the order of the paths / letters (with their corresponding cards) would not VIII be Lust and XI Adjustment?

(In the case of IV, on the presence or absence of the letter He in ALHIM or ALIM, does suggest here it is the path of He - Star).

Aeon418

11-10-2008, 06:47

Chapter IV The Formula of Alhim: also that of Alim actually uses the Emperor in the main text. But there is this footnote in the chapter:
The letter He is the formula of Nuith, which makes possible the process described in the previous notes. But it is not permissible here to explain fully the exact matter or manner of this adjustment. I have preferred the exoteric attributions, which are sufficiently informative for the beginner.
For many years, up to and including the time MTP was written, Crowley was very secretive about the Heh/Tzaddi issue. The only people he confided in were his own students or members of his orders.

The attribution of Adjustment and Lust is obvious when you consider the chapter titles.