Coleman Smith/Waite versus Harris/Crowley Thoth

This is not a thread to discuss the personality (liked or disliked)of either Crowley or Waite.

I wish to discuss whether the intent/philosophy/direction of the two decks is the same.

It is said that the RWS system is easily grasped and may be one of the reasons for it's popularity.

I think the RWS is Christian Mysticism and the Thoth is eclectic occult philosophy. Both have alchemical and astrological symbolism. Both have apparently a commonality of the Order of the Golden Dawn. It is thought that esoteric 'depth' of the Thoth deck can make it more difficult to interpret, but the RWS does not suffer from this or at the least it is more accessible because it it less geometric and has pictorial pips (minors).
Aside from this 'accesibility' do the two decks have the same philosophy, given their things in common?

~Rosanne

Well I'll just say that since I didn't grow up as a Christian, it took me a long time to recognize just how Christian the Rider-Waite really is. The symbols blew past me. And Also I'm not very observant. On the other hand, I saw the Thoth for what it is after looking at only a few cards.

In her review here at AT of Waite's Pictoral Key to the Tarot, Bonnie Cehovet writes,

"Waite writes as if he is relaying the Gospel, and the reader only needs to heed his words. Once past that, there is some wonderful material here. Some of Waite's background is gone into - his membership in the Order of the Golden Dawn, his interest in all things mystical (the Holy Grail, Kabballah, magic, theosophy, occultism, Rosicrucianism), and his creation of his Tarot deck as a means of conveying the secret tradition of the ancient mysteries."

This was my only tarot book for many years and I did get the Rosicrucian feel from it but was so annoyed by the tone of "mysteries too deep to convey here" that I stuck with the key words, which did me little good.

Hi Rosanne,

To me Waite's symbolism does seem more traditional, but when it comes to the occult it can sometimes be difficult to say exactly what traditional is. But I think it's a lot more traditional than Crowley's.

I think Crowley's was designed specifically with Crowleyism in mind. It draws on symbolism from a lot of different sources; frequently the original meaning has been changed to reflect Crowley's ideology. I think this is why Crowley's can seem so inaccessible. Before a person can begin to make sense of it they have to be indoctrinated to a certain extent into Crowley's teachings. But this is no easy task. Crowley's writing style is archaic and can take a great deal of effort to unravel. Then you also have tons of misinformation you have to sort through.

Thanks Debra.

I guess when I read Crowley I saw this link between sexual and spiritual union- that I do not see in the RWS- and choose not to see in the Thoth.
Perhaps the same reason you did not recognise the Christian-ness of the RWS is the same way I do not see Kabbalah-ness of Tarot.

I think I can explain it this way..
I think the RWS could live with C.S. Lewis
and the Thoth with John Updike.

~Rosanne
Books by C.S Lewis
The Screwtape Letters
The Chronicles of Narnia

Books By John Updike
The Witches of Eastwick
Villages
~Rosanne

LOL that's brilliant Rosy!

The Kaballah stuff blew right by me, too. It's not part of your everyday US secular-humanist-reform Jewish perspective.

Hi Abrac- we posted at the same time. I agree with you.
Do you see the the two decks as the same basis?
I do not at all- even given their links.
~Rosanne

Rosanne said:

Hi Abrac- we posted at the same time. I agree with you.
Do you see the the two decks as the same basis?
I do not at all- even given their links.
~Rosanne

Click to expand...

What do you mean exactly by "as the same basis?"

The same Basis....

Both the RWS and the Thoth came out of the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn- a mystery school (Mystery School: Ageless Wisdom?) Both Men were apparently teachers at HOGD. They appear to have totally opposing views to me. It is as if their mystical beliefs do not have the same basis. Crowley appears anti -Christian and Waite appears pro-Christian. Crowley Magic comes from a different place than Waite Magic? Place is not possible a sensible word to use Their Base is different to me.

~Rosanne

They both share a base in the concept of hierogamy, of 'the sacred marriage'.

A concept of which I believe there are undercurrents too in the TdM.

kwaw said:

They both share a base in the concept of hierogamy, of 'the sacred marriage'.

Click to expand...

OK I would agree with that except that one seems to be about Hieros Gamos *symbolically (RWS) and the other (Thoth) about #Sex Magic as per OTO and Crowley's writings.

*hieros gamos does not presuppose actual performance in ritual, but is also used in purely symbolic or mythological context, notably in alchemy

#The fundamental premise of sex magic is the concept that the sexual energy, or libido, of the human organism is the most potent force it contains, and harnessing the unique states that arise through sexual activity provides a special experiential conduit for the transcendence of nominal reality.

Is that a fair summary?

~Rosanne