Aeclectic Tarot Forum - Four of Swords -- why not death?

firemaiden

31-01-2003, 07:09

Greetings O Wise/Wizened/Wizard ones and Fools:

Okay, I'm looking at the pictures now, because all my books are roasting on the fire. So here I am looking at this RWS 4 of Swords. One thing bugs me. The guy looks dead. This looks like to me 100% like a sarcaphagus adorned with the typical medieval sculpted likeness of the deceased person inside.

...The books are roasting, but they are calling out from the fire: "nooooo he's not deeeeeeeeead.......just withdraaaaaawn..."

Shut up books, what do you know, the guy is dead, I tell you, he's a sarcophagal effigy. Like this one, look: (Aliénore d'Aquitaine)http://www.womeninworldhistory.com/EofAreturns.html

"noooooooooooo...............he's not dead, he's just reeesting, see?"

Oh, do shut up! can't you burn a little faster? He's dead I tell you, he's dead.

"he's deeeeeeeeeeead like Julieeeeeeeeeeet after she drank the deeeeeeeeeath-sleeeeeeeeep poison"

Okay, they put her on a sarcaphagus too, but she was not made of stone.

"not dead....just sleeeeeeeeping..."

"Okay, you mean like hibernating? So why the &*%$#! didn't they paint a wintering bear? Or a catepillar in cocoon??

"sorry gotto goooooooooo....aaaaaaaaall buuuuuuuurned...bye"

Your thoughts pleeeeeeeeeease...

Francesca

31-01-2003, 07:24

The tarot is symbolic, that's why she's not dead. At least, not dead forever.

THis card could be associated with the part of the King Arthur legend that says he will wake up from his death sleep when his country needs him again.

So he is waiting, not really dead.

Do you associate the Death card with Death?

Francesca

Macavity

31-01-2003, 07:29

Good question! Heheh. (tongue in cheek) I do sometimes wonder myself. I mean "death" couldn't possibly mean... uhm "death" right? Or the devil? etc. (Yeah, I know, but...) Perhaps medieval spin doctors existed to put forward a postive interpretion even way back then? }) Always look on the briiiiiight side of life de dum de dum de dum de dum... Ah memories. Perhaps a warning not to be TOO serious?

For another slightly irreverant perspective see Jim Revak's site: http://www.villarevak.org/kct/kct_1.html Some are quite brilliant - King of cups: "A throned man is threatened by rising water. You will soon have plumbing problems in your house. Occasionally this card may imply worse disasters: floods, tidal waves, shipwrecks, and the like. etc. etc. " Love it! :D

Macavity

Aoife

31-01-2003, 07:45

You have the capacity to really make me think - which is pretty difficult for me at the best of times but particularly when in competition with my need to LOL at your wonderfully expressive style!

From our brief [but for me, deeply meaningful] acquaintance I get the impression that you are someone who lives life to the full - there's a vibrancy, a sheer love of life jumping out from my computer screen. I bet your life is very full and interesting and ACTIVE!! - if not always in a physical sense, certainly in an inner sense.

And that for me is the key - those people who are very active find it hard to conceive of the value of rest. A marathon-runner friend of mine has told me how she resents her need to sleep - she knows she has to sleep to be able to perform but she'd much rather spend the time running. When I was younger I'd sometimes feel guilty about reading [a message from my childhood, I think] that I should stop being so introspective and be out 'doing'.

So...... take it from a melancholic soul like me that resting isn't like death. I know it might feel that way for a fiery soul but instead, shut out the voices of the books and look into the flames as they burn. Ahhh.... such invigorating peace!

firemaiden

31-01-2003, 08:14

Originally posted by Francesca
Do you associate the Death card with Death?

Golly Jeepers, I dunno, it sure looks death on the card. I mean there is that sickle and skull and bits and pieces of chopped up people on the ground. There's the grim reaper, le squelette faucheur, another antique, or at least medieval topos...

".......oh no.......aïiiiiiiiiiiiiii....I'm burning...I can't contradict her........oh no.........Deeeeeeeeath is meeeeeeeetaaaaaamorphisis"

Shut up books, do you think you are going to fly out of that fire all radiant orange plumage, squawking all hellfire with crystal clear legible pages ? Not a chance, buddies, you're burning, I tell you! Burning!

".............no...........we will reeeeeeeevive.....in your cooooomputer.... the electricity of our thoughts....like fire will snap and crackle in your frooontal looooooooooobes..."

Um...er.. how embarassing, okay, as I was saying, when I just look at the picture, I don't get sleep. I get dead. As in deceased.

as in:
'E's bleedin' demised! [...] He has ceased to be! 'E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
'E's a stiff! Bereft of life, 'e rests in peace! If you
hadn't nailed 'im to the perch 'e'd be pushing up the daisies!
'Is metabolic processes are now 'istory! 'E's off the twig!
'E's kicked the bucket, 'e's shuffled off 'is mortal coil, run
down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisibile!!
THIS IS AN EX-PARROT!!

firemaiden

31-01-2003, 08:18

Originally posted by Aoife
You have the capacity to really make me think - which is pretty difficult for me at the best of times

Thank you Aoife!! (just think, if you say Eve with a cockney accent you don't need to translate it into Welsh to get Aoife)

I think you do a smashing job thinking all the time! But look, please tell me, what do you see in the picture that looks like it will rise up again? no really, just in the picture? I'm not talking about whether I like to rest or not....more indolent than I the world knows not...but this is really bugging me. Can we please just look at the picture?

Thirteen

31-01-2003, 08:26

There is a thought that goes up through to Shakespeare about "little deaths" and things that are related to Death, but not, well, dead yet. Sickness, Sleep, even sex (the belief was that a man "died" a bit when he climaxed). Remember that even up to the 19th century, there was a terror people had of being buried alive--it was a very real fear, because all too often folk who were very sick looked to be dead....but weren't. Mistakes honestly did happen, frequently enough that people arranged for little bells to be put on their coffins that they could ring from inside...just in case!

Which makes the Arthur idea even more right. The concept that one may be in a state of illness or sleep that MIRRORS death, but isn't. Think cryogenics rather than death. The King will return, and with him, Camelot. Reflects the dying god myth. The god isn't dead but sleeping underground, waiting to rise again.

This is prehaps one of those situations where the meaning of the card might be better served by just having 4 swords on it rather than an image. That said, you're absolutely right that RW goes for an image that is more like a knight atop a coffin, then someone just resting and recouperating. But then, Waite was a Victorian/Edwardian man. He would be familar with (1) the folk who were buried with bells on the coffin, just in case, and (2) Arthurian legend--which was VERY popular back then. The return of Arthur for a new age, the return of Camelot. The King may look dead--but he isn't. He's only in suspension, waiting.

firemaiden

31-01-2003, 08:51

Sigh...must I give up on trying to find it in the image itself?

Thank you Thirteen. Yes, death and sleep are related...and orgasm, oui, "la petite mort".. Hey wait a minute. Thirteenth, Arcana 13, your card is the death card isn't it?

Aoife

31-01-2003, 08:55

The only other thing that occurs to me [and I really don't know enough to be sure of what I'm talking about] - is that in the Christian faith, one interred as this chappie appears to be - i.e. in a sanctified place [church/stained glass windows] is never really dead. 'is metabolic processes may be 'istory' but his immortal soul is not. The knight is merely resting, awaiting the day of judgement when he will be transported to heaven and everlasting life.

As for my name...... [come closer, I don't want anyone else to know!.... ~Aoife whispers into Firemaiden's ear~ ..... just after I joined I saw my name and thought 'oh s**t!.... what have I done.... if you pronounce my name slowly and phonetically [and within earshot] someone will come running to ask if you're alright and if they can assist you to the loo! I've got a horrible feeling my presence here makes some feel dreadfully nauseous!]

firemaiden

31-01-2003, 09:14

Thanks Aoife. Okay, that's something I can work with. I'll ponder this a bit.

Books: ".......... a hiiiiiiiiiiint...what do you see in the stained glaaaaaaaaaaass window...............?

Oh! Does anyone have a big enough reproduction of the card to see what's in the window?

p.s. Aoife re: name -- ROFLPP!!

lupo138

31-01-2003, 09:28

lupo138

31-01-2003, 09:31

I come back to what Thirteen mentioned - up til the beginning of the 20 century death was called "Schlafes Bruder" meaning Sleep´s Brother in German.

As I experienced the same problems with that card (and still experience) here are my poor thoughts that were meant to convince me (and still don´t to 100% ):

The place is obviously a chapel or church. Why would you rest there with a sword ? In former times, before you became knighted and thus empowered to carry a sword, the "Knappe" (knave in English ?) spent at least one night in a chapel with his sword, meditating, praying, exploring his inner self. Our fellow here has his hands folded, so I am not absolutely sure that he his asleep. It could as well be, that he took a comfortable position for meditation ;)
(that harmonize with the pillow behind his head as well, because it would not have any use for a dead person. I admit that "having no use" doesnt´t necessarily mean that it wouldn´t be done.)

But an other argument that convinces me most is rather simple: The colours are far too bright to fit Death :)

btw: I like your new location, firemaiden ! Unfortunately I cannot take part in the Toto thread any more, as it was moved to a thread that only subscribers can visit, subscription works via penpal and there is no penpal in Austria :(

firemaiden

31-01-2003, 09:42

Oh, the colors are bright? Can you see what's in the stained glass window? Is he in a church or a morgue? If he's not in a morgue, that could help. Is there a way to tell it's not a morgue? Although chuches have tombs in them too...

lupo138

31-01-2003, 10:10

Originally posted by firemaiden
Oh, the colors are bright? Can you see what's in the stained glass window? Is he in a church or a morgue? If he's not in a morgue, that could help. Is there a way to tell it's not a morque? Although churches have tombs in them too...

Aaargl- I have no credit card, that is the problem. I had been working at a bank in Austria and had a credit card with no limit at all. Then I changed my job (+ 20% salary) and my bank. Now I have to wait until I am "reliable" enough. Grmpf. But thanks for your well meant advice :) and right, it´s Paypal.

Nearly all European churches have quite many tombs in them, whether you see them or not. The reason is, that you would try to get as close to the altar as possible, because that would enhance your cahnces at the final judgement.
Anyway I think he is within a church, because teh window seems to be very typical for that to me. On it is a saint (St Mary ?) on the left and an "ordinary human being" kneeling in front of her on the right part of the window. Behind the kneeling one is a tower or something like that. The saint´s aura of holiness is inscribed with "PAX" (peace in Latin). I do not know about the meaning of it.

Minos

31-01-2003, 10:41

Looks dead to me.

But the thing is, it's death in the past tense. In the present tense is a very exalted burial.

Webfoot

31-01-2003, 14:19

Firemaiden, I do enjoy your posts. (Aiofe’s too)

That Four of Swords may be just laying there (lying there?) inertly and unhelpfully, but those books sure seem to be speaking to you.

I don’t see why the four can’t have the meaning you give it—deadness, inertness. After all when the mind (swords) abstracts and defines the life out of concept or an object or even a person, it’s dead. Rigid. Done for. Perhaps enshrined in a book somewhere waiting to come to life . . . calling, calling . . ..

Macavity

31-01-2003, 14:20

That triggered a thought though... Some tombs in English churches were "double deckers" (if you will!). The top portion shows the deceased reposed in tranquility, but the lower section shows the grim reality of a (usually somewhat-horrific) effigy of a decomposing skeleton. Doubtless some kind of allegory to the "levelling" effect of death on ALL people. But clearly if the medieval mind wanted an image of death per se, they were quite able to produce such a thing... Usually something along the lines of the Tarot's "Death" card? ;)

cuddles

31-01-2003, 14:48

i'm still sorting out all this card meaning stuff...after 4 months i'm at the point where they are more familiar to me and i'm working out how much meaning to put into what the books tell me/assist me and how much to go with my gut...knowing the gut can be misleading if you don't wanna see it!

so why can't the card mean exactly what she sees? if we are going with out intuition and NOT what books say, why isn't her vision right for her? hasn't umbrae said recently the meanings of the cards are changing for him?

what i am trying now is reading the cards with what i know and see, and going to the books if i'm having problems working something out or if i want to see what other kinds of meanings might have applied to the situation.

it's all so wonderfully confuuuuusing! lol

Hypatia

31-01-2003, 15:03

I'm a little confused. Why can't the image simply be of dead man and still have the meaning of rest?

We are willing to see the Death card as meaning not death but a major change in your life. Death here is sort of the extreme case.

The same with the dead guy. Dying may be traumatic but what is more calm and peaceful than 'eternal rest'. Again it can be seen as the extreme case and generalised to mean a time aside from the hustle and bustle of life.

Also an old church on a sunny day is cool and peaceful and the old carven tombs make you think of all those who have died and you can sort of feel them there, at peace from the frantic roar of history.

firemaiden

31-01-2003, 16:03

Before we go any futher, just in case I am causing any confusion by my silliness-- I don't want to lead anyone astray here, so let me just make a few things clear in plain words...

Please understand: I do not really think the card is about death, far from it. There are other cards that deal with death and resurrection, etc. But I want to know why the card's creators chose to represent rest in this particular way.

My attempt to forget what the written meaning of the 4 of swords card is, is just silliness on my part -- but, I think the card poses a kind of enigma, there is a mystery here for me that has not been answered.

Now I will tell you a secret: symbolic death is a very important part of many "initiation rites". I think this is supposed to be the picture of a symbolic death, as part of a sacred initiation rite. But I don't know how to prove it from the picture.

Aoife

31-01-2003, 16:42

You've triggered me off.....

Images spring to mind of the English Queen Mother's lying in state [April 2002] - four grandsons [in military costume] keeping vigil at the four corners of the catafalque......

Then I'm thinking about the stable, 'Emperor-like' perspective of the number four..... something about the risk of getting stuck there. Four, a foundation for a stable and orderly life.... unless of course we want more... to move beyond tangible understanding into the realms of psyche.

And then I thought about "Women Who Run With the Wolves" Clarissa Pinkola Estes - the story of "Vasalisa The Wise: The Retrieval of Intuition as Initiation" - the 'too-good' mother having to die if she is to embark on her quest to retrive her intuition.

And.... and now I've dried up!

firemaiden

31-01-2003, 16:52

Yeah yeah yeah!! Aoife! Yes, Women who run with the wolves...would you mind recapitulating the story of Vasalisa the Wise? Now THIS is interesting!

p.s. You've just passed 100 posts, you get an avatar!! I can't wait to see!

firemaiden

31-01-2003, 17:09

Bye the way, Minos, Webfoot, Macavaty, hypatia, cuddles, Minos, Lupo138, thank you all for your interesting posts. I am still pondering the double decker tombs. Yeah, I've seen those. Pretty wild aren't they. As for the pillow, alas, poor Eleanor of Aquitaine has one too, it's made of stone...

Thank you for saying what you see in the window Lupo. The dying ashes of Rachel Pollacks 78 D of W are reminding me that she makes much of this picture -- it reminds her of the Fisher King, a scene of healing, not dying.... oh dear, would any of us have seen that without the book?

Mojo

31-01-2003, 17:14

In days of old, when knights were bold....

A history lesson can help you better understand this elusive 4 of Swords fellow.... In the middle ages, Knights were the super jocks of their time. When they went out on crusade, or rescued a damsel in distress, or slayed a dragon, or whatever they did, it was a big public dog and pony show... they were in the spotlight and life was often moving at the speed of light. Image was everything!

Life was full of danger, so when a knight left for a crusade or a mission, there was always the chance that he wouldn't come back alive. Since image was so important, most knights were hesitant to leave their funerary arrangements to anyone else, because they wanted to make sure that they were remembered in the way that they deserved. Leaving a legacy was important as well. So, before a knight went away to do battle, he would prepare his funeral in advance, usually including a chapel and a fancy sarcophogas bearing their likeness in carved relief on top.

If the knight actually DID come back from his adventure alive, the truly chivalrous ones would take some time to rest and recuperate and reflect on whether or not they were true to their mission, their king and their god. Some of them did this by literally laying down in their coffin in an act of humility and contrition.

This is the image that is being shown on the Waite-Smith 4 of Swords. This makes the card about reflection, recuperation, getting in touch with one's basic nature, etc.

firemaiden

31-01-2003, 17:24

Originally posted by Mojo
..Some of them did this by literally laying down in their coffin in an act of humility and contrition.

NO WAY!!!!!!!!!!!!! Really Mojo? That is weird. Like Count Dracula? No really, is that true? Well, so that's the image. This is a case of case closed. Of course Mojo, now you know what I am going to ask you next... do you mean, historically they did this, or historically in literature, the characters did this. I'm scanning the ashes of my reading notes from Chrétien de Troyes...alas, all too scarred and burnt to read...and the cobwebs and dustbunnies to my mind's back files too thick to penetrate. Ah woe, which prince will pierce the barren lands and restore life to my sleeping memory?

meatbox666

01-02-2003, 00:31

Wow fire maiden you have tons of energy. Think of the four of swords as being.........dead tired? I agree with cuddles also. If it looks like a dead guy to you then go with your intuition. Mine says that he's " dead to the world" That means tired as hell or "dead tired"

Thirteen

01-02-2003, 00:43

Originally posted by Mojo
If the knight actually DID come back from his adventure alive, the truly chivalrous ones would take some time to rest and recuperate and reflect on whether or not they were true to their mission, their king and their god. Some of them did this by literally laying down in their coffin in an act of humility and contrition.

Way to go Mojo! I didn't know this. Very cool. And there we are, back to the "brother of death"--sleep, rest, illness. There also is the foundation aspect to the "4" in this 4 swords. Humility, contrition--ways of establishing a new foundation on which to rebuild, heal and renew your life. And it also relates back to Lupo's idea of the knight who holds vigil in the church--also an act of humility, prayer and meditation. In addition, we should also remember that churches were not only places for elaborate stone coffins, but for the sick and wounded. Churches were the hospitals, Monks the healers.

Very interesting. I love how this forum keeps on teaching me new things...

Originally posted by firemaiden
Now I will tell you a secret: symbolic death is a very important part of many "initiation rites". I think this is supposed to be the picture of a symbolic death, as part of a sacred initiation rite. But I don't know how to prove it from the picture.

You're quite right. A lot of initiation rituals involve a symbolic death and rebirth--even to the point of putting someone in a coffin or in a hole in the ground. I's say this intuitive interpetation is VERY likely--Especially given Mojo's info here. The knight really is going through a form of initiation in order to rejoin the world of peace after being so long in the world of war.

Hey wait a minute. Thirteenth, Arcana 13, your card is the death card isn't it?

If you don't count the Fool. If you do...then it's the Hanged Man ;)

meatbox666

01-02-2003, 01:04

4 of swords as illness? I equate the five of swords as a person having an illness. Well, maybe the person is sleeping alot because they have an illness but it is undiagnosed (4 of swords) When it is diagnosed then it is five of swords. When a person is recuperating from the illness it is 4 of swords reversed. This is my interpretation. Here is an example, a person that is HIV positive would be 4 of swords and full blown AIDS is five of swords. I say HIV and 4 of Swords together because alot of people do not know that they are HIV Positive. You'll know that you have AIDS. That would be hard to ignore so the person will be in the doctors office. Diagnosed 5 of swords. This is just my interpretation.

Thirteen

01-02-2003, 01:37

Originally posted by cuddles
i'm still sorting out all this card meaning stuff...after 4 months i'm at the point where they are more familiar to me and i'm working out how much meaning to put into what the books tell me/assist me and how much to go with my gut...knowing the gut can be misleading if you don't wanna see it!

I understand your confusion, Cuddles, and here's the thing. There are cards out there, Vision-type cards, decks with pretty pictures, shapes, blank cards, where all you're suppose to do is gaze at them and see whatever it is you can see, like a Rorchach's ink blot. Like looking into a crystal ball or a scrying bowl.

But the thing is, these are TAROT cards. And as much as folk here might urge and urge and urge you to follow your gut, in the end these cards DO come with baggage, with history and libraries of books detailing their meanings. This includes SOME agreed upon interpetations. Not a lot, mind you, but some. If there were none, if you were SUPPOSE to just pick them up and interpet them with no respect at all for historial/agreed--argued over--interpetations, they wouldn't be tarot cards.

so why can't the card mean exactly what she sees? if we are going with out intuition and NOT what books say, why isn't her vision right for her? hasn't umbrae said recently the meanings of the cards are changing for him?

1) She can. There's no Tarot Police looking over her shoulder as she does a reading saying, "You can't interpet that card that way! Against the law!" But here we are again--it's a TAROT deck, and discussing all the symbolism, history of meaning, and various interpetations is part of what Tarot is all about. If it mattered not at all, she wouldn't have bothered asking the question. But it's an interesting question, isn't it? Books say, "Rest," and "healing," but the image is of a coffin lid--why? Why this HISTORY of meaning?

Part of interpeting THE TAROT isn't JUST intuition--it's also a body of information, discussion and learning that ASSISTS that intuition and DEVELOPS it. We learn from Mojo about knights laying in their coffins, and suddenly a whole new way of reading the card comes to light. The more you know, the more flexable and layered the readings. Which brings us to....

2) I'm sure the meaning of the cards will continue to change for Umbrae. As it will for you, as it does for me, as it does for all of us. Meanings change, grow, develop not ONLY as we change, grow and develop, not only as we learn more, but with every reading. I'm quite sure the 4/swords could indicate Death in a given reading. Like words, the cards can form new sentences with new interpetations. That DOESN'T mean that each word doesn't have some agreeded upon definition, though, does it? Words, however, can also change meaning, gain more meanings, lose meanings or have more than one meaning.

It's like a recipe. The first time you try to bake a cake, you follow the recipe exactly (interpet the cards according to the book). And it's not easy, and things go wrong. But you keep at it, and it finally it comes out right. You get confident at making the cake. And NOW is when you can decide what you want to change a few things--the spices, the amount of sugar, the type of frosting. You follow your intuition, your gut, and play with the recipe. Because now you know what you can do to the cake to make it more to your taste--yet not destroy it. The original recipe is still there, still the foundation for the cake, but in the end, it becomes very much your own recipe. And as the years go by, you change it and change it again. That's the tarot.

Does any of this help quiet the wonderful confusion?

firemaiden

01-02-2003, 03:20

Thrilling, Thirteen. It's going deeper and deeper. Thank you for tying everything all together here so succinctly. This is getting really, really fun!

firemaiden

01-02-2003, 03:23

Originally posted by meatbox666
? I agree with cuddles also. If it looks like a dead guy to you then go with your intuition.

Sorry, Meatbox, no, you are completely missing the point.

Minos

01-02-2003, 03:38

Originally posted by meatbox666
Here is an example, a person that is HIV positive would be 4 of swords and full blown AIDS is five of swords.

I'd disagree. I'd say an HIV/AIDS positive person who is at peace with the world and ready to die a fitting death among friends and/or family would be 4 of Swords. An HIV/AIDS positive person still in the grips of fear/denial/whatever would be 5 of Swords.

Same applies to any terminal disease; and since we're all gonna die sooner or later, that means all of us.

Major Tom

01-02-2003, 04:14

Here's what A.E. Waite has to say about the 4 of Sword in his Pictorial Key to the Tarot:

"The effigy of a knight in the attitude of prayer, at full length upon his tomb. Divinatory Meanings: Vigilance, retreat, solitude, hermit's repose, exile, tomb and coffin. It is these last that have suggested the design."

Quite often we find only a portion of the divinatory meanings suggesting the entire design for the card.

These type of tombs are common across Europe. In Major Tom's Tarot I've used a photo of the tomb of a local noble from the local church. :)

Karenwhe

01-02-2003, 07:04

Originally posted by Thirteen
I'm quite sure the 4/swords could indicate Death in a given reading.

I would like to respectfully disagree here. The card is an Air (mind and intellect) and for me if it would mean anything close to dying it would be the death of the mind. Which in simple words would be comma or becoming in a "vegetable” state. If you get what I mean. It is true that from this state one can either come out of it or eventually die, but that would not be indicated by this card from my opinion.

That is how I would see some sort of death here, in a very extreme case.

HOLMES

01-02-2003, 07:04

while i have nothing new under the sun to share eheh.

just have my obersvations based on the rider waite system.

first let us look at the number itself archtype the emperor.
he is sitting there majestic on his throne, not moving.. as an emperor, a leader, shouldn't he be ruling the land somehow? acting,, moving ? instead of sitting there like a grand figure on a throne majestic like.

so i figure he is sitting there preparing for battle, preparing for decisions, the emotional aspects of the emperess have been dealt with,
the only thing now is the logical decision, and the conquences that will come with them.

looking at four in all suits,, they have all taken a break from their endevours of the suit..
four of wands the active element takes a break to celebrate from spirituality.
the four of cups takes break from emotional flow of the cup to wonder why it is all occuring.. how many more cups can he deal with.
the four of pentacles a man holding on his to resources close to him, wondering how long he can hold his wealth to himself.
and here in the four of swords we have a person resting in the church,, mediating, resting his mind.

they are all preparing for the next card,, the challenge. of the fives,
five of wands and five of swords are all fighting,
five of pentacles and five of cups is about lost.
let us examine this in greater detail.
(assuming that going from 4 to five here )

four of wands celebrating,, a prebattle feast to let down their hair for in the next morning there will be tests of great strenght , of ideals, and the measure of men. which is shown in the equality of the five of wands battle.
the four of swords a person preparing for the battle ahead in the next day shown int he five of swords . this battle is differnt however.. whereas in the five of wands, equlity of strenght is shown, (i for some equate it to a joust in my mind) for each soul is equal.
the five of swords show a obivous victor,, and the two losers who have lost their swords, their dignity, and since the swords is a mind suit they have losts parts of the mind in the battle.
war can huant a man in battle and never again are they the same.
five of pentalces shows a man and woman running in the snow, how did the miser lose it all in the four of wands to fall to such depts of being a begger in the snow ? he prepared phyisically for this test, he knew it was coming .
five of cups.. four of cups a person hardening his heart,, some see him as drugged in other rider waite clones, yet he is preparing his heart for the ineivatible heart break shown in five of cups where he has lost three of his cups and still has two behind him.

so just based on these little flows,,
the four of swords isn't about death,, but rest from the mind, from strife, a brief respite in times of wars, or a brief rest to prepare one self for a lifetime of soldering and war, as a knight. (be it jedi or not who knows little joke here ehhe)

also the 78 degres point out that waite intended the cards to be manfiestion 10 to one instead of the established, to most of us logical , continatuion of 1 to 10.

i dont' have my 78 degrees ,, or studied a book in weeks. but let me reverse it for you , base level.

consider the 5 of pentacles, some challengs are being experiences.
in the four of pentacles the begger has found some money and keeping it,, deciding where to put the money for best investment.

the five of cups.. a person is experiencing loss of emotioanl love and relationships wondering how in the world can i get by this, not realizaing the gifts they still have.. the memories, the long serving love.
in the four of cups,, he is saying i have accepted my past loves, and lost
and now i am seeking where best to put my love, my emotioanal investments. in my imagination ,, the man is kind of noticing to the side the cup in the air being offered to him.
from his deatachment he can see the gift truly offered by the unvierse, where before looking at the other three cups he wouldn't look up as he would of been too attached to notice, saying this cup here is the best for me.

the five of wands.. the joust of wands,, the challenge of innerspirits in the games where the bystanders watch..
in the four of wands ,, it is the night celebrating in time of peace, on this day you have done your best and now it is time to rest and enjoy the fruits of your efforts.

so we come back to the swords which is the topic of this thread.

in the five of swords, a differnt battle was fought,, mind over matter, ruthlessnes over understood rules ( example of what i mean here is the streetfighter of the rule fighter,) or it might be just the smarter man won.
here we are at the four of wands.. which we can have two takes.
the victor himself coming to terms of what he has done in order to win,, trying to forgive himself.. forget ,, and put it behind him, the time of war is done.
or we could have the loser, resting there, coming to terms with his lose, his innerworth.. the realization of his strenghts and weakness. as he sits there vulcan like
(consider the star trek ,, where spoke would lay there in mediation,, i am not sure if he did it in star trek 2 or 3,
but i know in star trek six he was laying there in the mediatve postion coming to terms with his delusions of his number one vulcan potege who betrayed the federation)

cuddles

02-02-2003, 09:02

thanks everyone. thank you thirteen. this conversation has helped me a lot.

and, luckily, what i read here fits in with how i would like to use the cards! i feel like i'm working this out, slowly but surely. and partly by not trying too hard at it. letting it develop more naturally than i did at first. seeing what i see in the cards and then comparing that to what i can read about them. i've never been comfortable doing it without the books. i love reading what they say and comparing and deciding what i think. but i don't want to become a slave to the books!

thanks firemaiden for starting this conversation :-)

i know my appreciation and understanding of the tarot has been greatly enhanced by the conversation and support here at aeclectic. i'll become a member as soon as my budget allows :-)

Thirteen

02-02-2003, 15:05

Originally posted by Karenwhe
I would like to respectfully disagree here. The card is an Air (mind and intellect) and for me if it would mean anything close to dying it would be the death of the mind. Which in simple words would be comma or becoming in a "vegetable” state. If you get what I mean. It is true that from this state one can either come out of it or eventually die, but that would not be indicated by this card from my opinion.

That is how I would see some sort of death here, in a very extreme case.

Agreed, actually. That's more or less what I meant--that in a given reading, with other cards surrounding it, this card could be one of many cards leading to an interpetation of death. As you point out, it would be the part of the story predicting that a very ill person is about slip into a coma--and if followed with the right card, you might then say, "they won't come out of the coma. They will pass on."

Another thought on this card that hasn't been considered is that it might be post-mortem, a card indicating the need to sit at a gravesite and connect with one who has died. We see the coffin and think death, but we forget that it's the LIVING who look at coffins. It doesn't indicate that someone will die, so much as it could indicate that the querent is having thoughts and meditations about those who have died, meditations on life, lost or even--in regards to the HIV interpetations--thoughts on how they want to go in the end, where they want to be buried, how they want to be remembered. Meloncholy thoughts, but very within the realm of swords.

firemaiden

02-02-2003, 15:22

Originally posted by Thirteen
Another thought on this card that hasn't been considered is that it might be post-mortem, a card indicating the need to sit at a gravesite and connect with one who has died.

That is a really cool thought. In contemplating at this card, then, it is the reader himself who illustrates its meaning. Thank you Thirteen!

Karenwhe

02-02-2003, 18:22

Another thought/possibility that came to my mind after reading Thirteen last post:

In the Jewish religion after the death of a person and his/her burial there is a ritual called "Shiva" people sit on the floor for seven days to commemorate or grief the deceased (a bit more complicated but this would be the short version of the story). Though there have to me minimum 7 people to make the “shiva” if I am not mistaking.

As a meditation for the dead this could also represent a "Shiva". This ritual is not modern by they way, it is thousands of years old.

meatbox666

03-02-2003, 14:39

I do not know how to quote sentences. I agree with you Minos, only if the HIV person is at peace then 4 of swords is befitting. If not, them 5 of swords. Let us take a look at the coma situation. If this were the case I feel strongly that the Moon would be present. Should it be reversed, the Moon, in the case of a coma patient. So we have the four of swords and the Moon. I would expect to see these cards come up in a coma patient. In regards to a burial, someone looking at the coffin, would not the five of swords be present also with the four of swords to indicate that a death occured? I am just asking. I would also excpect to see the Death card reversed in the spread also.

Alex

04-02-2003, 00:00

I just couldn't read the whole thread but the suggestion of Death comes from the pictures in the H-W clones more than on the suite and number association.

The Mythic deck shows a person meditating, preparing for the battle ahead, a meaning akin to the one Holmes described.

Alex.

Thirteen

04-02-2003, 12:54

Originally posted by meatbox666
In regards to a burial, someone looking at the coffin, would not the five of swords be present also with the four of swords to indicate that a death occured?

I'm with you on all but the 5/Swords. Why the 5/Swords? I'm not disagreeing, I'm just not sure I understand. 5/Swords (traditional RW) is a man walking away after losing a fight--So I understand the HIV idea (he lost the fight). But how does that connection work with the burial? Unless you're saying that we're always fighting just to stay alive?

Oh, and you can quote by clicking on the little "quote" button that's down there beside the "edit" button.

Thirteen

04-02-2003, 12:58

Originally posted by Alex
I just couldn't read the whole thread but the suggestion of Death comes from the pictures in the H-W clones more than on the suite and number association.

The Mythic deck shows a person meditating, preparing for the battle ahead, a meaning akin to the one Holmes described.

Alex, check out Mojo's excellent explaination on why Waite went for this image to indicate meditation--it really gives an added dimension to the card. It's on page 3.

Karenwhe

14-02-2003, 20:43

I know this is not 100% on topic, but taking in consideration the amount of debate going on here on the 4 of Swords, I thought it would be a nice place to share this for all the people interested in the 4 of Swords.

http://www.ata-tarot.com/ata2-0/reflections/02-15-03/Swan-Meditation.htm

Moongold

15-02-2003, 00:13

Great thread,

I've always understood this as simply rest before a fight of some kind, taking a breather in the spirit of the element.

As Holmes said, the 4's seem to be about harmony, stabilization. Why did the artist use these visual metaphors? Mojo's explanation seems as good as any, at least partly.

Pardon if someone else has said this, but the stained glass windows could represent *perception* or *illusion*. They change the nature of light. You can't see through the window clearly. The *death* or stillness is only metaphorical in other words.

Another meaning, and a more likely one in my opinion, the scene looks like a church too. Churches were and still are places of refuge and sanctuary. Could be as simple as that.

I haven't read every post thoroughly so excuse moi if someone has already said the above.

Moongold

firemaiden

15-02-2003, 05:09

Originally posted by Moongold
Pardon if someone else has said this, but the stained glass windows could represent *perception* or *illusion*. They change the nature of light. You can't see through the window clearly. The *death* or stillness is only metaphorical in other words.

Moongold, no one has said this, and it is important. It may be the missing piece. We are trying to put together what in the picture should tip us off the the idea of rest, rather than death. If the stained glass window suggests illusion, we can read the card as the illusion of death.

Do read the rest of the thread though, you will see why Mojo's history lesson is so terribly important in answering my original question...

firemaiden

15-02-2003, 05:27

Originally posted by meatbox666
Mine says that he's " dead to the world"

Oops, forgive me, Meatbox, I didn't register this before. Yeah, "dead to the world" that's really great; it is definitely a saying that the picture suggests.

Moongold

15-02-2003, 06:28

How wonderful is Death
Death and his brother Sleep

Shelley, 1792 The Daemon of the World

Originally posted by Thirteen
Alex, check out Mojo's excellent explaination on why Waite went for this image to indicate meditation--it really gives an added dimension to the card. It's on page 3.

Pamela Colman Smith did the pics and the word I hear is that there wasn't always congruence between what Waite said he meant and what the pictures say. That is a bit of historical Tarot gossip that I cannot substantiate beyond feeling that I read it somewhere. It may have been in one of Pollak's commentaries - I'm not sure.. but I heard that Waite and Colman Smith developed a rift of some sort

FIREMAIDEN ....It's Colman Smith's birthday tomorrow. I think she would be entranced to listen to all this discussion about what her pics represent. See thread: http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11550

Back to the picture, FM, you're having us all on, aren't you hon? But let's go with it genuinely.......

In the broad light of day if you have a clear look at the Knight's face it is PINK and I think his hands are slightly pink. Yet his body is encased in elegant concrete. Now that should make the metaphorical wheels spin, surely? Perhaps it means that the Knight is alive NOT dead (unless he is enbalmed?) Perhaps he ccould be seen to be resting, or poised in prayerful meditation? The elegant concrete though? I don't think we're going to be able to leave metaphor behind absolutely.

Would the balance of probabilities be enough? Given all these options can you feel beyond reasonable doubt that the card could mean *resting* ?

I'm satisfied that there is room to make that judgment....:(.
(How do you get these smiley things to smile when you want them to LOL?)

Thank God for Pamela Colman Smith. This eccentric, highly spirtual but impoverished woman artist has kept some of the best Tarot minds ticking over for almost 100 years!

Every discussion is a tribute to her in that it keeps her memory alive.... and recognises her work in a way that it wasn't whilst she lived!

Moongold

firemaiden

15-02-2003, 13:54

Originally posted by Moongold
Back to the picture, FM, In the broad light of day if you have a clear look at the Knight's face it is PINK and I think his hands are slightly pink. Yet his body is encased in elegant concrete. Now that should make the metaphorical wheels spin, surely?
Moongold

Hmmm, What the bit of pink in the Universal RW card shows, Moongold, is that Mary Hanson Roberts was as uncomfortable with the effigy as I, because the original coloring, as far as I can see from the enlarged card on the "learn tarot" site, has no pink, zip, nada, none. Just deathly yellow. The Universal Waite card also differentiates the knight from his support (white) and gives him a bit of shadow which makes it look like his lying on the coffin, not part of it...

edited to say: Scratch that! They both have the shadow!

Some things in the original drawing do point to life however, with or without color, if you look at it blown up very large -- the rendering is so carefully detailed. We see nostrils, creases and folds in the sleeves, a pattern of squares in the pillow, and I think I see an open collar. His hands are not pressed together, but held ever so slightly apart and at an angle from eachother. A good stone sculture could do all of this I suppose, but it does look very life-like...

There is a "z" on his sleeve. ("zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz"?)

There is further mystery that perhaps someone can clarify for me: the decoration to the left of the swords ends in the tiny head of a lion...or is it a ram??? What does that mean?
edited to say: I think it is actually a ram's head.

Moongold

15-02-2003, 15:54

Originally posted by firemaiden
Hmmm, What the bit of pink in the Universal RW card shows, Moongold, is that Mary Hanson Roberts was as uncomfortable with the effigy as I, because the original coloring, as far as I can see from the enlarged card on the "learn tarot" site, has no pink, zip, nada, none. Just deathly yellow. The Universal Waite card also differentiates the knight from his support (white) and gives him a bit of shadow which makes it look like his lying on the coffin, not part of it...

Ah Firemaiden, I got up early this morning to see if there are any further developments. When I read your post I got out the magnifying glass to look at said skin, feeliing more like Sam Ryan my heroine from Silent Witness every minute. (In case you don't get that TV show in the US, Sam Ryan is a forensic pathologist.) Certainly the Knight looks moribund. But I can't offer much more than that right now.

I need a 4 Swords myself now, feeling a wee bit weary, so will climb back into my untomb-like bed for a bit more zzzzzzz.

Will continue to watch with great interest.

I wend to death, knight stith in stone;
Through fight in field I won the flower;
No fights me taught the death to quell -
I wend to death sooth I ye tell.

Anonymous

Thanks heaps,

Moongold

firemaiden

15-02-2003, 18:31

Originally posted by Moongold
Certainly the Knight looks moribund.

Ah no! Moongold, just as I have gotten to seeing what in the rendering makes him so life-like! Don't give up.

I think the brainstorming we have done here has certainly pried open his coffin lid a few notches.

Do you have any feeling about the little ram's head?

Moongold

17-02-2003, 09:20

Originally posted by firemaiden
Greetings O Wise/Wizened/Wizard ones and Fools:

Okay, I'm looking at the pictures now, because all my books are roasting on the fire. So here I am looking at this RWS 4 of Swords. One thing bugs me. The guy looks dead. This looks like to me 100% like a sarcaphagus adorned with the typical medieval sculpted likeness of the deceased person inside.

...The books are roasting, but they are calling out from the fire: "nooooo he's not deeeeeeeeead.......just withdraaaaaawn..."

.

In our end is our beginning? Who said that?..........

Firemaiden, after the exploration of the death vs withdrawal theme for this card I was left wondering whether we had missed the point.

We were arguing about specific interpretations various people have given 7 Swords and limiting ourselves to their specific scenarios. I wondered what the heck it mattered really whether this Knight was dead or not.

In response to another post this morning re 3 Swords, I found that Aleister Crowley had given the Minor Arcana specific titles.

The titles for Swords were as follows:

1. The powers of Air; 2. Peace 3. Sorrow; 4. Truce; 5. Defeat; 6. Science; 7. Futility; 8. Interference; 9. Cruelty; 10. Ruin.

7 SWORDS screams futility and I think the stone Knight is a prettty good representation of futility. I guess there may be a couple of points that I'll take away with me from this discussion:

1. Check the history
2. Try not to be proscribed by the interpretations of others
3. Match the situation to an interpretation I feel comfortable with

The rest of the Swords suite could easily fit these titles without too much strain. "Interference" for 8 Swords certainly draws a smile.

Moongold

firemaiden

17-02-2003, 14:46

Dear Moongold, I am not sure I understand your post yet.

Nevertheless, I will share this: Crowley is where I began studying the tarot. My first deck is Crowley/Harris deck, and my first book the Book of Thoth. The Four of Swords as "Truce" doesn't cut it for me here. ... this whole discussion began as an attempt to learn to read the pictures, specifically this picture, from the RWS deck, without reference to any other book, or any other card. Sure, everyone knows the meanings, and can look them up anywhere. Yet, I felt the interesting thing about this card is precisely this problem it poses. Think about how many other ways Rest or Withdrawal could be portrayed. (So too, could choice be portrayed any other way than with Lovers, which is for another discussion).

NO, this card specifically chose the illusion of death to portray rest, which really gives it a much more interesting, much more philosophical depth than simply "rest", or "time out" .

After our fantastic and very enlightening long discussion about this problem in the card, I conclude: here is an initiatory descent into oneself, so deep that to the outside, we must appear dead. This is no afternoon nap, this is a deep coma, a bout with catatonia, a long period of hermitage, a transe, 5 years alone on a desert island to relearn what it is to be human, even a near-death experience (as in those people whose heart stopped beating, were technically dead, and then were revived). This is the wintering soul, encased in layers of ice, waiting for the great thaw to give re-birth to itself...

I wanted to say, but hesitate, a "descent into hell" because it sounds too active. Nevertheless, the kind of "descent into hell" portrayed in Black Orpheus, as a drug induced trance-state, and its accompanying visions is what I am thinking of right now. I like this idea. Especially given the stained glass window of "altered perception"!!

Moongold

17-02-2003, 15:06

Originally posted by firemaiden
After our fantastic and very enlightening long discussion about this problem in the card, I conclude: here is an initiatory descent into oneself, so deep that to the outside, we must appear dead. This is no afternoon nap, this is a deep coma, a long period of hermitage, or 5 years alone on a desert island, to relearn what it is to be human. This is the wintering soul, encased in layers of ice, waiting for the great thaw to give re-birth to itself...

I love this quote, Firemaiden. And it is very much to do with the mind and the spirit. :laugh:

I did not realise that you had decided to go with the pictures alone for the excercise, Pardon I thought it was partly fun (and it was indeed, but FUN, not mockery). I was stuck in another thread, almost like a time traveller, and it was quite late at night.

It is interesting to think of the elements of thinking, perception, image, history, values that we bring to this work.

I will be flippant now - What you were trying to do could be called evidence based tarot (Moongold ducks as celestial rotten tomatoes are hurled towards her out of the cosmos by some of her home based colleagues).

It was a great discussion and thank you for it, Firemaiden. Now can we do the same for Soul and Spirit? I've always wanted to see those. :laugh: :laugh:

Blessings

Moongold

firemaiden

17-02-2003, 15:17

Originally posted by Moongold
Now can we do the same for Soul and Spirit? I've always wanted to see those. :laugh: :laugh:

See them? Firemaiden gives an uncomprehending, incredulous look. Do you mean, see the 4-dimensional Tesseract?...

DarkElectric

14-05-2003, 13:51

Hmmm, interesting thread.

My take on all this?

The 4 of Swords serving as a reminder of the inevitable reward for all valours. Whereas Death will tell you 'I'll come for you no matter who you are" and in that respect, all of us have our inevitable transformations to undergo, The 4 of Swords is, in essence, saying the same thing. But...(and that's a big but,)

The 4 of Swords is giving one the chance to think about life prior to to transforming into a corpse, and some newly released kinetic energy. My question when this card comes up~
"Are you taking time to enjoy the life you have or are you so wrapped up in rushing that you're missing important things?"
I would say that this is also one aspect of "Futility" mentioned before. No matter how much prestige we gain, which Gods we worship, or what Monarchs we choose to serve, the end result is exactly the same for everyone.Therefore one would be well served to take a break from the seriousness of the pursuit, and just enjoy what one has here and now.

As far as my interpretation of the symbolism of the stained glass window~ Since the Christian influence on these cards is quite strong, would it not stand to reason that the window would remind one to be more aware of the Church, and the importance of preparing one's soul for delivery into the afterlife?

I see the 4 of Swords as a precursor to the Death card, sort of an preliminary admonition to pay more attention to life, and what's most important about it, because it will all change. We really have no choice in that.

Memento Mori.

Moongold

14-05-2003, 14:29

It's great to see this thread risen from the dead HA HA HA....

I'd forgotten what fun it was.

Someone gave me another interpretation of this not long ago. It appeared in a reading for me an he interpreted it as sleep problems. It was an uncannily accurate interpretation that blew me away a bit.

firemaiden

14-05-2003, 14:42

Hahahah! You see! this thread wasn't dead! It was just SLEEPING!!

I like very much the Wheel of Change deck's take on this card, as the eternal soul of the Pharoah bursting out of his sarcophagus through the heart chakra, where four daggers of the four different directions meet.

firemaiden

14-05-2003, 14:58

Originally posted by Macavity
For another slightly irreverant perspective see Jim Revak's site: http://www.villarevak.org/kct/kct_1.html

Oh Macavity! Master of Depravity! I didn't notice that website last time round!! This is brilliant!! A man right after my own heart.

I like what he says about the four of swords: Is your burial insurance paid up? You do want your family to afford a snazzy tomb like the one pictured here, don’t you? If ill-dignified: Yes, your burial insurance is paid up, but your spouse will opt for a cheap cremation and take a vacation with what’s left over.

Umbrae

14-05-2003, 15:20

Originally posted by DarkElectric
I see the 4 of Swords as a precursor to the Death card, sort of a preliminary admonition to pay more attention to life, and what's most important about it, because it will all change. We really have no choice in that.

Memento Mori.

Well said…The whole point of the Memento Mori is to remind us – we are all mortal, so get you poop in a pile, don’t waste time with ‘time stealers’…cuz you gots stuff to do…

allibee

14-05-2003, 16:27

I suppose, being English, having grown up with tales by Chaucer, Knights in shining armour, Damsels in distress, King Arthur and Merlin et al, enforced interest in medieval history at school LOL, I guess I have a much more ingrained traditional resonance with Pamela Coleman Smith's 4 Swords.

Recently I set a literary poser on the 'what card am I?' thread for the 4 Swords, and will share it again here as I feel it appropriate to the discussion.

It was written by the English poet William Wordsworth in a series of his work he categorised as 'Ecclesiastic Sonnets' 1821 - 22:

LANCE, shield, and sword relinquished, at his side
A bead-roll, in his hand a clasped book,
Or staff more harmless than a shepherd's crook,
The war-worn Chieftain quits the world--to hide
His thin autumnal locks where Monks abide
In cloistered privacy. But not to dwell
In soft repose he comes: within his cell,
Round the decaying trunk of human pride,
At morn, and eve, and midnight's silent hour,
Do penitential cogitations cling;
Like ivy, round some ancient elm, they twine
In grisly folds and strictures serpentine;
Yet, while they strangle, a fair growth they bring,
For recompence--their own perennial bower.

The poem is called SECLUSION. I think it's quite appropriate to the RWS 4 Swords.

The feeling from the image and the poem come across as the stillness of a mausoleum. If you would stand in one on a beautiful summers day, what would you hear? Nothing - bar the rustle of the leaves on a tree, or the cry of a bird - maybe. You would be undisturbed .... left alone with your thoughts.
What would you see in that tomb? An effigy to the cold stone of history, and the cobwebs of time? ..... maybe.

A thought: Mentioned on this thread is the movement from the 4 to the 5 Swords. How about the movement from the 2 and 3 to the 4? .... imagine this for a scenario:-
Things weren't working too well and you had to make a really difficult decision in the two.
You've brushed it under the carpet and put a brave face on it. It seems you've got on with your life... but have you? You can't get passed it. The painful truth, hurt and loss of the three swords has to be dealt with. You've dealt with the external issues, but not the internal ones. This is what you must do in the 4 Swords.
In this particular scenario we are looking at the need to go to that mausoleum and visit the cold, unyielding stone of your history. Spend time with it. Reach out and touch it. GRIEVE with it, and begin the healing process.

Just some thoughts :O)

Allison

Macavity

14-05-2003, 19:12

For those of you interested in my little knight, I've put one of the original pictures of him here: http://website.lineone.net/~jhcr/contrast.jpg I've (massively!) increased the contrast, in an attempt to bring out the background. Does he look dead or alive? One thing I LOVE about these things is the "no bones :laugh: about it" imagery. See all the little skull & crossbones around this guy. Does that not tend to underline the fact that he is indeed DEAD? To me it also seems surprising that, even in this case (where he died in 1590) a rather gruesome "medieval"(?) imagery still remained so popular! :D

Macavity

firemaiden

14-05-2003, 19:15

And he's dead! I tell you, he's dead!!

Thanks, Macavity! He's just wonderful. Don't you love the pillow?

allibee

14-05-2003, 20:03

Originally posted by Macavity
....See all the little skull & crossbones around this guy. Does that not tend to underline the fact that he is indeed DEAD? Macavity

LOL, doesn't it follow then that the skeleton in the RWS Death card just means that he's got a problem with anorexia ?.... come on! LOL

Put yourself in the time zone of when this card was created. How else would PCS pass on the feeling of still repose. Reflecting on an EFFIGY ... a portrait, a MEMORIAL, to what once was.
The thing that's died happened in the 3 Swords .... just the same as the Tower was built in the Devil, but actually knocked down in the Tower card.
Doesn't it sort of strike anyone as funny that there are 3 Swords hanging over him - literally and figuratively - and one beneath?

A.

DarkElectric

14-05-2003, 20:36

"No, child, Mr Door is NOT a skeleton, he's just very...thin".
Terry Pratchett~'Reaper Man'

allibee

14-05-2003, 20:43

heheheh :O)

As I mentioned on Macavaties Late (K)night thread, these effigies were very tradional for the period.
There are hundreds - if not more - of these scattered around England and Europe. They reside in Catherdrals, private crypts and Chapels, all over the place really. They are common in a very quiet, dusty way :O)
The most poignant ones include a curled up spaniel at his masters feet.

A.
(I think the problem here is the fact that I'm quite dim, and if I know something, I assume everyone must know what I know LOL, so apologies if I come across as a pain :O))

Rose

15-05-2003, 12:31

I just read this thread for the first time. There is a lot of great info here.

It's also interesting to look at the colors of this card in my version of the Rider-Waite deck. The tomb is completely yellow and the background above the tomb is gray (except for the stained glass window). The colors reinforce the meaning of the card as a time of rest and renewal-a need to take time to clarify one's thoughts and emotions and regain strength.

Yellow is associated with the Sun as a spiritual source of energy which is life-giving. Yellow is the primary color associated with the intellect-air (red=fire and action, blue=water and the unconscious). Yellow can signify the superconscious and a connection to the divine force.

Grey is composed equally of black and white and therefore as a combination of opposites can indicate that balance must be achieved. Grey is clouded. A gray area is defined as a situation that is not clear or where the rules are not known. Grey is also indicative of saddness and gloom-a need for healing.

The stained glass picture seems to portray someone receiving a blessing from a holy person. Perhaps the person receiving the blessing is in need of some healing power. The halo above the ?saint/god says peace-perhaps that is what he/she is bestowing.

Rose

firemaiden

15-05-2003, 14:29

Lovely, Rose, how wonderful to hear about the colour symbolism, and to have your take on the stained glass picture.

Allibee, thanks for posting that wonderful poem here. Lol about the Spaniel. I suppose this knight in particular has extra more something special in common with our knight, than your ordinary run of the mill sarcophagal efigy. When will our very English Cat, Macavity, speak?

Dark Electric: ROFLAO

Umbrae, Thirteen: thank you for this new perspective on the 4 of swords as a precursur to the Death card and a reminder to live while we are alive. I would never have thought of it that way, LOL. I thought this was the card of the LIVING DEAD. AAaaaaaaah. (P.S. what is memento mori? Remember the dead?)

Macavity

15-05-2003, 18:46

Originally posted by firemaiden
When will our very English Cat, Macavity, speak?Hmm... I gave that up - as a rather high risk activity (for those around anyway) :laugh:
http://www.livinghistory.co.uk/homepages/witchcraft/Matthew%20Hopkins.jpg

Who knows? I tend to seperate out the ideas suggested by tomb effigies and those alluded to by Pamela Coleman Smith? I suppose I see the notion of "repose" inferred by a dead (sic) knight as a (rather good!) visual pun. And similarly with death... as transformation?

I suspect that medieval images (such as in the tarot de Marseille) and distinct from LATER divination uses were fairly literal: Death may well have meant Death (sic)? But it became more "sanitised" when folk started to read the cards? Predicting (REAL) death was probably bad for one's income? ;)

It's difficult not to think of the Ancient Egyptians (also fond of grave imagery) with their very definite ideas about the functionality of symbolism? Eyes on the side of sarcophogi were (probably) INTENDED to allow the occupant to see out; False doors in tomb walls were indeed to allow the resident access to the other side (sic) etc. They were the perhaps ultimate exponents of depicting dead people in flattering images too... But we digress. :D

Macavity

Trogon

18-05-2003, 09:27

Originally posted by Macavity
For those of you interested in my little knight, I've put one of the original pictures of him here: http://website.lineone.net/~jhcr/contrast.jpg Uhhh.... Didn't any one else notice something interesting about this picture????
This IS the 4 of Swords!!! There are 4 swords depicted on this tomb! Can you find them all?

firemaiden

20-05-2003, 08:51

Thank you, Trogon! I knew there was more to this than the run-of-the mill sarcophagal effigy. I see the sword by the knights side. Are those three more swords in the roof??

Trogon

20-05-2003, 09:34

Originally posted by firemaiden
Thank you, Trogon! I knew there was more to this than the run-of-the mill sarcophagal effigy. I see the sword by the knights side. Are those three more swords in the roof?? Well... thats sure what they look like to me... Of course, I could be wrong... that does happen on very rare occasions... :D

xouroboros

20-05-2003, 13:28

Originally posted by lupo138

The place is obviously a chapel or church. Why would you rest there with a sword ? In former times, before you became knighted and thus empowered to carry a sword, the "Knappe" (knave in English ?) spent at least one night in a chapel with his sword, meditating, praying, exploring his inner self. Our fellow here has his hands folded, so I am not absolutely sure that he his asleep. It could as well be, that he took a comfortable position for meditation

This exposition came closest to how I see the 4 of Swords.

The night before a Knight-to-be was to be knighted (pun intended :D),he would enter a chapel,lay his helm and sword on the alter and sit to meditate/contemplate why he chose to become a Knight and to whom he served in this capacity. He would muse on the qualities and codes of Knighthood and his role and commitments in persuing this course in his Life.

In reference to interpretation,one could look at the progression from the Ace to here. The initial power of the idea imerges in the Ace. It moves to the choosing of the alternatives in the indecisiveness of the Two. On to the Melancholy (...a Crowley interpretation) of one having to choose,which accepts one path/choice,leaving the alternatives behind. At the Four,one contemplates the reasons for one's choice(s) in quiet silent contemplation.

...my take anyway

...namaste;
xouroboros

Macavity

20-05-2003, 14:00

Sounds about right. I am always reminded of how (historically) leaders often spent the night preceeding battle in churches, ostensibly to pray for victory. But if it's anything like THIS year, probably to dodge the rain showers. Rusty armour and all that? ;)

Macavity.

P.S. If recall these scene, the four swords might refer to the four motifs at the corners of the panel behind. One swords in each? Each seemed to consist of a selection of objects or scrolls either piercing or lying behind a skull. I did take a close(r) up (see below), but missed the vital evidence of the sword HILT! I might have missed some in the roof? :D

http://website.lineone.net/~jhcr/dscf0033.jpg

xouroboros

20-05-2003, 14:10

...if only our present-day "leaders" would do the same

...maybe there would be fewer conflicts

...*sigh*...

...namaste;
xouroboros

firemaiden

16-10-2003, 13:53

this thread wasn't dead, see? it was just sleeping :)

Moongold

18-10-2003, 22:20

I accidentally pressed the Stop watching all threads button and have now lost track of everything. I feel like a lost sheep myself now.

There was a thread just recently where the Ramshead symbol was taken up again and now I can't find it.

If the Moderators for this Forum wish to move this post to the right thread that is fine.

With regard to the Ramshead hanging from the window frame in 4 Swords, let me offer the following (possibly useless) information.

In the new Tarot of Prague 4 Swords there are photographs of genuine Knights' tombs, just like the one in the RWS 4 Swords. These tombs have the head of the Knight, encased with what looks like a set of ram's horns. I'll try to get a link to a copy of it.

What does the Ram's head symbolize? Well, it is the symbol for the planet Mars (the God of War) and the astrological sign of Aries. The ram symbolizes leadership. often achieved through force. Aries is the sign of the conqueror who wants to be first and have it all. And the RWS Ram's Head, looking very similar to the one in 4 Swords, can be seen in the Emperor card, on the throne of the Emperor.

Do you think this might be the answer after all?

I was left thinking how odd it is that the Ram's head symbolizes War and the little lamb itself symbolizes peace. :) Not odd perhaps, just sad. A metaphor of childhood transition?

lark

18-10-2003, 22:34

You were in the Rider- Waite - Smith thread. Under The Four of Swords Symbol. I was there too. I think it's the Goddess Hathor. But I like your explanation too. I'll have to go back and change the score.

Moongold

18-10-2003, 22:36

Here is the attachment of the ToP 4 Swords.

baba-prague

19-10-2003, 14:02

Just to sneak in and say, these are not knights' tombs (though I can absolutely see why you thought that Moongold) - they are carved figures from a large, very old door-knocker on a little baroque house by the river. They were submerged during the 2002 floods and I have to admit I got quite upset until the waters subsided and we were able to go down and see them - a bit faded and with some cracks but still they survived. This seemed to me quite apt and symbolic.

Strange but true that it's a door knocker. Alex and I have often wondered why anyone would put two seemingly dead people on their door (and it is a very large door knocker, as you can imagine). But then again, I think they are only sleeping, because if you look closely they are both seemingly quite happy and somehow don't look dead. Still, I have no explanation for why they are there.

I think only in Prague... (we often wonder what their post-person thinks when he/she delivers letters)

Oh - I should say, in the original they are head to toe, but we had to separate them to fit both on the card (we liked having a man and a woman).

Moongold

19-10-2003, 14:15

Thank you baba-prague. :)

Your tarot deck provides enough material to keep me fascinated for a lifetime.

My explanation for the meaning of the symbol on the RWS 4 Swords window thing is still relevant though. I hope so anyway.

judylea1

11-07-2005, 22:22

The way I see it this figure has been through an ordeal of some kind, emotional trauma, perhaps working double shifts and is in a burnout state, so perhaps she should be dead, but is counting her blessings she isn't, note the hands folded in prayer.

firemaiden

28-07-2005, 08:42

Nice to see this thread revived ;)

It is interesting to compare the tomb and sarcophogus of the Waite-Smith depiction of the Four of Swords - to Alexandra Genetti's take on it in the Wheel of Change tarot: an Egyptian mummy -- it is a standing saracophogus, with four swords pointing to the center/heart, from which a stream of light emanates, bursting through the wood of the tomb -

I think the stained glass window in the Waite-Smith image serves the same function as the light bursting out in Genetti's card.

Marina

28-07-2005, 12:41

I think he can be dead. As i think the Death card can be literal death sometimes. Why not? Why can Tarot only forsee 'big changes' but not real life things. Death is a part of life - theere are people dying out there everyday. And it IS a big change.

Blame my Lenormand influence where the card Dog CAN represent a dog, once in a while. So why not Tarot. The card is named Death...so why it's about anything BUT death?

Same about 4 of Swords. In RW it looks like a coffin...tell me he'll wake in five minutes, but depending on the reading it can say he'll stay a long time in hospital, curing a serious disease.

Or that he's leaving for good.

Of course, i believe these 'literal' meanings are not very common. They are very, very RARE actually (many stay a whole life without seeing them) but i don't think there is any rule forbidding them.

Or is there? I don't know. Just my opinion.

:TPW Yuko

firemaiden

28-07-2005, 13:27

I think you should read the whole thread.

Psychebleu

03-08-2005, 17:09

but for me, 4 or swords has never just meant 'rest' or withdraw - by choice anyway. I've read somewhere, and think the representation here makes more sense if looked at as a forced rest or withdraw - that could translate to many real-life situations: hospital stay, having to take to bed/stay indoors due to exhaustion, even imprisonment. Just having to give in and allow yourself time to rebuild. This also has ties into the Arthur myth.

From a purely visual standpoint - I've always wondered about the positioning of the four swords - why 3 together and set aside - with the one remaining, removed - and upright? It's a lot like the placement of the 4 or cups. If 4 is a number of Foundation....the 4 of cups seems to speak of having 'been there, done that' - but something new developing...might you not be quietly preparing for the next stage? Ready to again build upon your 'foundation', having put the past issues to 'rest'. Could this be a time of inaction, of going underground - calmly planning and plotting the next step? After all, this is a mental suit.

Anyway, it all ties together for me. Sometimes you just don't stop and think until you are forced into a position where you can no longer do. Everyone's heard about the delinquent who surely would have crashed and burned had he not been sent to jail - with plenty of time to think and make the necessary attitude adjustments.

tmgrl2

03-08-2005, 19:06

Where the BLEEP did this thread come from and

HOW did I miss it???

Firemaiden...what a stitch...

OK...so here's what comes to me when I see the Four of Swords (RWS)

It's like some cosmic kind of reversal...you know..we go into a church and we see all the stained glass of the saints and the higher spirits and God and the Blessed Mother...and

We

Are the peons, the common people, who come in to get out of the cold, to get out of the maelstrom, to rest and pray and reflect upon our lives.

Well....here's this person (all yellow, on a yellow bier ......not the ale kind....with the yellow representing intellect)
in a prayerful, meditative pose that certainly makes it look like (s)he could be
DEAD!

BUT...

The stained glass, instead of depicting visions of God and the Angels and the holy people....is

a stained glass

of ordinary people in the outside world...I keep seeing a mother and this little kid who looks like he's holding bread...so kind of an ordinary scene of daily life.

So....Daily Life now becomes the "spiritual realm" and the "inside" of this place where our figure lies in repose, is where one goes to meditate upon

(three swords) all aspects of ourselves...body, mind/spirit and soul....

in preparation for

Ascension to the "spiritual" realm of

returning to ordinary life on a more solid foundation (hence the sword hidden beneath the figure and apparently acting as a support or as a "developing" fourth sword that is needed to build that solid square, that foundation we need in order to function in the world...

So..the three white swords are the purification of the three parts of ourselves through meditation in order to reintegrate ourselves and find the strength to once again reunite with the Ordinary Life...here represented as the " spiritual goal" by virtue of its being created out of stained glass.

Does this make sense?

He does look dead though.

terri

firemaiden

04-08-2005, 01:24

cuddles

04-08-2005, 06:58

this is an interesting discussion of a fascinating card but has anything been "proven"?

tmgrl2

04-08-2005, 08:52

Well terri, it has been pretty well proven in the course of this thread, that the "man" on the coffin is not a man at all, but an effigy on a tomb, a marble person. The person would be inside the tomb. There are links in earlier posts here which show tombs just like this one. And there is a marvelous post by Mojo which suggests a fascinating historical reason for why a tomb might actually mean resting, not death. (Thast post is worth the price of admission for this entire thread.) Also inside this thread, is also a post which states that Waite/Smith got their idea for this card from one of the accepted meanings for the 4 of swords -- as being "tomb".

Yup...I read the whole thread and immensely enjoyed everyone's input including those with historical references.

And then, I just wanted to add my two cents worth...in terms of what comes to me when I see that card...with a bit of my own humor as well...
since the thread began with humor.

I never thought the card meant death anyhow....

(MY LAST LINE WAS A JOKE)

but resting.....and I saw the figure as a representation or metaphor for a person.....not as a real embodied person.....

...tmgrl goes off muttering as she removes tongue from cheek...

(Well...not entirely tongue-in-cheek it was....)

Psychebleu

04-08-2005, 11:16

this is an interesting discussion of a fascinating card but has anything been "proven"?

My thoughts exactly.

firemaiden

17-08-2005, 23:25

Okay, how about "convincingly shown".

Willa

18-08-2005, 04:10

He is not dead just worn out and needs time to rest, and regroup, and regroup he must as his problems are still present, as indicated by the swords.

SalomeTorera

22-08-2005, 03:53

Nope I don't think she's dead (There's a woman figure on my deck's 4 of Swords). I see her as Sleeping Beauty - she's in a sleep/death-like state but at some point she WILL be woken up.

Demon Goddess

10-10-2005, 19:39

Ooops, I posted this on the older thread, should have posted it here, I suppose.

I have received this card several times over the past few weeks in reference to a situation we are going through that involves the physical and emotional separation of my husband from his children. This caused by the twisted ramblings of the madman that just happens to be my step-daughter's boyfriend.

Last night I got this card in the Desires postion of a Celtic Cross and in addition to all of the other meanings, saw this as a desire for "peace" -- in the sense, I guess of balance being a peace between him and his children, because they have completely broken the last ties, (at least until the boyfriend is out of the picture) and gone their separate ways. I also see hope in the future that the break is temporary as I said, until the boyfriend is out of the picture. When the children will return, but that the impasse is in effect and will stay in place for a while.

So... as to the question of death or sleep. In a sense it's dead, but it's only dead for a while, there is hope of the afterlife, if you will.

Dunno if anyone else might see that like that. But that's what I got.

I can't imagine this card ever meaning actual death. There is far too much future in the card for me.