Where Does The Kudos Lie?

I have some questions for all you who create Tarot cards- both the published and the unpublished.

If in creating cards by reading all the available literature since the 1800's (or even earlier if that is your bent), you followed the dictates of say Levi or Rachael Pollock or any hundred of authors who have their say........

To whom goes the credit?

You, the Artist, or the writer of the inspiration?
Are there any exceptions to your general view?
What if you copied the images- say in collage?
Or used various images from, for example- Shakespeare?
Or used the words of a poet known to you to draw your inspiration from?

Is it your work when you pick up the paint and use it?



~Rosanne

Rosanne,

This is a legal issue that should be researched elsewhere. Here you are liable to receive mostly opinion and you need facts before you get into trouble. You should also know before beginning. You may find that you are better off aiming for something more original as opposed to collage, quotes from other people and anything other than your own creation just to avoid the greatest potential for problems.

Places to start:
http://www.law.harvard.edu/faculty/martin/art_law/image_rights.htm
http://www.artgally.com/artist-copyright-law.htm
http://www.artlaws.com/ArtLawQuestion.htm
http://www.artcc.org/home.html

M-Tarot-M said:

Rosanne,

This is a legal issue that should be researched elsewhere. Here you are liable to receive mostly opinion and you need facts before you get into trouble. You should also know before beginning. You may find that you are better off aiming for something more original as opposed to collage, quotes from other people and anything other than your own creation just to avoid the greatest potential for problems.

Places to start:
http://www.law.harvard.edu/faculty/martin/art_law/image_rights.htm
http://www.artgally.com/artist-copyright-law.htm
http://www.artlaws.com/ArtLawQuestion.htm
http://www.artcc.org/home.html

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I think you've misinterpreted her thread. She's not making a deck, she's asking those who do (which are based on the ideas of others) if they see the deck as their own work. An interesting and thorny issue I would say...

Thanks M-Tarot-M, but this is a philosophical question, rather than one of actual creation of a deck.

It is as teomat has just said, something I find interesting and also thorny
I just wondered what people who make cards think.

A great example would be the Fantastic Menagerie- which I use and love and think of as MR Press's deck- but give the credit to Grandville who inspired by the chosen images was the writer of the companion book. In this particular thread - I am not questioning anything legal at all. Just the attitudes to the images. Another famous one would of course be the RWS. Early decks in the main- we have no idea of the artist.

~Rosanne

Well, interesting that you mentioned Shakespeare in your first post, Rosanne, as he is famous for borrowing plots, characters and storylines from other people for all of his plays. But what he makes of them is totally different...and that's why we remember Shakespeare and attribute Romeo and Juliet to him.

An artist always stands on someone else's shoulders. Sure, Grandville did draw some wonderful pictures and for those he deserves full credit. They were mostly illustrations for books and newspapers. What the Magic-Realist Press team did was to take those pictures, and turn them into something completely different: a tarot deck, according to a tarot structure, taking the images of Grandville to convey the tarot archetypes. They also collaged a fair amount, though you can't see it as it's so well done. So the resulting deck is not Grandville's, it's the creators' of the deck, though Grandville's images were the inspiration - in the same way that Masuccio Salernitano's Romeo and Juliet story inspired Shakespeare.

Rosanne said:

I have some questions for all you who create Tarot cards- both the published and the unpublished.

If in creating cards by reading all the available literature since the 1800's (or even earlier if that is your bent), you followed the dictates of say Levi or Rachael Pollock or any hundred of authors who have their say........

To whom goes the credit?

Click to expand...

There are enough clone decks around as it is. I've got this deck and book set under construction, and the only reason I'm doing it is because I've needed a deck like this for years, it just doesn't exist yet.

Rosanne said:

Thanks M-Tarot-M, but this is a philosophical question, rather than one of actual creation of a deck.

~Rosanne

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I see you do not want to create a deck yourself however this is not a relativist issue. Whether an opinion is that it's all shared and free to be borrowed or credited to every individual of whom you have been influenced what difference does it make? How can you ignore how law sees this even philosophically? Would you consider grabbing extra cash from the bank teller on a purely philosophical basis? It is important to include science, law and empirical knowledge whenever applicable so your point of view is informed rather than pure subjectivity.

I'm interested in the philosophical aspects of the question, too.

Reading tarot involves examination of morality and spirit. Maybe another way to think of Rosanne's question: Whose spirit animates the deck?

I suppose it's analogous to a musician who takes someone's composition further and further afield.

eta: I love the Fantastic Menagerie deck. In my view, Granville's illustrations would be the "inspiration" if someone else had actually drawn the images in his style.

There must be a word or phrase for collaboration with someone who isn't actively collaborating (because for example they are dead). Really all I can think of is that the images are "used."

M-Tarot-M, haven't you ever heard the saying that there are no original ideas? For instance, there are only 36 (32? I forget which) dramatic situations and all fiction is created using variations on them. Writers research their work, medical researchers research their work, artists are inspired by the work of others, even an oil painting of the colors of trees in the fall could be said to be "borrowed" from nature.

Grizabella said:

M-Tarot-M, haven't you ever heard the saying that there are no original ideas? For instance, there are only 36 (32? I forget which) dramatic situations and all fiction is created using variations on them. Writers research their work, medical researchers research their work, artists are inspired by the work of others, even an oil painting of the colors of trees in the fall could be said to be "borrowed" from nature.

Click to expand...

Why are you asking me this question?

I used the word "borrowed" as part of a rhetorical* question.


* as in this definition: asked in order to produce an effect or to make a statement rather than to elicit information.