history of tarot of marseille

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sfleet75

31-01-2009, 03:35

Ross G Caldwell

31-01-2009, 04:20

Hi, welcome to the Forum!

There is a member here called "Yves le Marseillais" who lives in Marseille, and probably knows more about what to see in Marseille than anybody else here.

I've been there once before, and only for a few hours, so I can't offer any advice beyond saying at least go to see Notre Dame de la Garde - the big church on the hill -, and walk around the harbor and the old town. I saw one book and game store that had lots of tarots - it was on a main avenue. I'm sure there are much better stores - you'll have to ask Yves.

Walking down from ND de la Garde in 2002, we did see this shop -
http://www.angelfire.com/space/france/images/prov/mars02.jpg
and it is clear that Marseillais are proud of their link with Tarot.

In reality, the name Tarot de Marseille was first used by Paul Marteau in the 1930s (maybe a little earlier, I don't have my refs on hand); the earliest examples of the pattern come from Paris and Lyon. The historian Thierry Depaulis believes it was invented in Lyon. There is a sheet of uncut cards which seems to come from Italy (nobody knows for sure), from about 1500, which contains many cards with TdM style images, so most historians think that the basic pattern was invented in Italy.

Be sure to go up to Aix and even Avignon if you can - it is worth the trip.

Best regards,

Ross

kwaw

31-01-2009, 05:33

In reality, the name Tarot de Marseille was first used by Paul Marteau in the 1930s (maybe a little earlier, I don't have my refs on hand);

The year 1889 is the first reference in print that I am aware of to the pattern of the Tarot de Marseilles (assuming Morton's hasn't added the reference in his 1892 translation, in which case 1892 is the earliest):

1889: Papus Publishes Le Tarot des bohémiens: le plus ancien livre du monde "The Tarot of the Gypsies: The Most Ancient Book in the World".

Quote
"We hope that for this purpose you have procured the Tarot of Marseilles, the most correct in its symbolism, or else the twenty-two keys designed by Oswald Wirth, perhaps – and this is really almost indispensable – you have both of them."
End quote from:

Chapter IX of the Tarot of the Bohemians by Papus, A. P. Morton Translation, 1892. p.81/82 (www.sacred-texts.com/tarot/tob/tob11.htm)

(also p.81 of my revised edition with introdution by Moakley, 2nd edition 1962)

It is also listed as a classification among 'the modern tarots' on p.88 (www.sacred-texts.com/tarot/tob/tob11.htm#page_89)

The Tarot of Etteila.
The Italian Tarot.
The Marseilles Tarot.
The Tarot of Besançon.
The double-headed Tarot of Besançon.
The Tarot of Watillaux.
The German Tarot.
The Tarot of Oswald Wirth.

Le Marseillais

31-01-2009, 17:16

hello everyone, brand new to the forum...

next month i will be spending a week in marseille, france, and as is per usual when i go to a new place i want to research any esoteric links said place may have. and for marseille, the obvious one would be the origin of that specific deck.

is it in fact from marseille, when was it developed, are there any interesting esoteric/occult-related spots to check out? bookstores, etc, that may have very old, antique sets of the tarot decks? it seems as marseilles is a 2500+ year-old port of greek and roman origin that there must surely be something to be discovered there!

thanks

Hello and welcome to the Club :)

Just informs me about your exact dates in Marseille and I will lead you to some bookshops specialised in Occult and Tarot decks.
A City Museum exist with some old decks name Musée du Vieux Marseille sit in La Maison Diamantée and located in Old City Center (close to Vieux Port).
I have to check if they are open to public (I means for old decks) because Museum was in works some months ago.
On my side, I could shows you some historical decks I owns (but not for sale)
In fact a new Museum will be constructed within .... 2013 named MUCEM (Musée des Civilisations et de la Méditerrannée) who will host about 30 old Tarot decks (I shooted already mains decks).
A good occasion... to come back after your first visit ha ha !!
Anyway, feel free to contact me (PM me via my member details on this site) and feed me with details such as your Mobile phone, name, loo for a Rendez Vous in Marseille ect..).
I will mail you my own details.

Salutations from France.

Yves Le Marseillais

coredil

31-01-2009, 18:14

The year 1889 is the first reference in print that I am aware of to the pattern of the Tarot de Marseilles (assuming Morton's hasn't added the reference in his 1892 translation, in which case 1892 is the earliest):

1889: Papus Publishes Le Tarot des bohémiens: le plus ancien livre du monde "The Tarot of the Gypsies: The Most Ancient Book in the World".

Quote
"We hope that for this purpose you have procured the Tarot of Marseilles, the most correct in its symbolism, or else the twenty-two keys designed by Oswald Wirth, perhaps – and this is really almost indispensable – you have both of them."
End quote from:

Chapter IX of the Tarot of the Bohemians by Papus, A. P. Morton Translation, 1892. p.81/82 (www.sacred-texts.com/tarot/tob/tob11.htm)

(also p.81 of my revised edition with introdution by Moakley, 2nd edition 1962)

I confirm that Papus uses the name "Tarot de Marseille" in his book.
You can get a PDF of Papus book here:
http://www.archive.org/details/clefabsoluedelas00papuuoft
It seems to be a copy of the first edition as on page 372 it gives the print date: 15 Juli 1889
At the top of page 88 of the PDF you can read the mentioned name "Tarot de Marseille"

Best regards

kwaw

31-01-2009, 18:40

I confirm that Papus uses the name "Tarot de Marseille" in his book.
You can get a PDF of Papus book here:
http://www.archive.org/details/clefabsoluedelas00papuuoft
It seems to be a copy of the first edition as on page 372 it gives the print date: 15 Juli 1889
At the top of page 88 of the PDF you can read the mentioned name "Tarot de Marseille"

Best regards

And listed among the 'Tarots Actuels' on p.94 ~

Thanks for the link coredil :)

Kwaw

Ross G Caldwell

31-01-2009, 20:46

Thanks kwaw, and coredil for finding a copy of the original edition of Papus.

I had a sneaking suspicion I was forgetting something... yes Papus and earlier still, Merlin (1859) uses the phrase "tarot de Marseille."
http://books.google.fr/books?id=ByoGAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA760&dq="tarot+de+marseille"

Now I was going to raise the objection that like Merlin, Papus was using the term in a specific sense - i.e. Tarots that are actually made in Marseille - rather than the generic sense that we now use it (TdM is a "pattern" now, whether the cards were made in Avignon, Lyon, or Paris).

Merlin's use is of the descriptive sort - the "tarot de Marseille de Bernardin Suzanne." Here the term "tarot de Marseille" is not a title, but a description of where the pack was made. You can tell this from both the lack of capitalization of the "t" in "tarot", as well as in the entry above, where Merlin says the "jeu de Bernardin Suzanne à Marseille." So in English it would be misleading to translate the first text as "the Tarot de Marseille of Bernardin Suzanne". It means "the Marseille tarot of Bernardin Suzanne", and the second, "the pack of Bernardin Suzanne in/of/at Marseille."

But Papus is a different matter - he seems to be really referring to a brand name, as he capitalizes the term - "Tarot de Marseille" - throughout, and gives an address where they can be bought (note on page 95). His illustration on the plate between pages 96 and 97 also calls it "Tarot de Marseille", so I am inclined to think that what a customer going to 20, rue de la Banque, chez Pussey, Paris, would ask for would be the "Tarot de Marseille," which means that the pack was being marketed under that name.

Merlin refers to the Bernardin Suzanne pack, which dates to c. 1840.

http://www.rosscaldwell.com/images/tarotart/suzanneatouts.jpg
Tarot of Bernardin Suzanne, from Schweitzer Spielkarten 2, number 28 (p. 173).

But this does not seem to be the pack Papus was referring to, at least on first glance. Maybe there will be telling details making Papus' pack a Conver, or something else.

Thanks very much for finding this reference again.

Ross