View Full Version : DW 78: The Cards as a Sequence, Chapter 2
arizonagirl
06-02-2002, 10:15
(Melvis will be back with Chapter 3.)
Ms. Pollack looks at the cards in the Major Arcana as a progression through life. Chapter 2 is an overview, and we will get into greater depth of the sequence in subsequent chapters.
To best participate in this discussion, get your deck (Rider Waite or favorite) and lay the cards out as Ms. Pollack describes.
The Fool, whose number is 0, is set apart to show us that he belongs everywhere and anywhere. Ms. Pollack divides the remaining cards into 3 groups of seven. These 3 rows of cards she calls the Areas of Experience.
The first line, The Worldly Sequence, represents consciousness, the outer concerns of life in society. This line concentrates on such matters as love, social authority, education, and describes the main concerns of society. This line begins with the Magician and ends with the Chariot. It describes a journey of personal growth.
The second line, Turning Inwards, represents subconscious, the search inward to find out
who we are. This line concentrates on the awareness of self, followed by a symbolic death and rebirth. This line begins with Strength and ends with Temperance. It is a journey of
self-knowledge.
The third line, The Great Journey, represents super-consciousness, a travel from darkness
into light. This line begins with the Devil and ends with the World. This is a journey of
enlightenment.
Examine the cards you’ve laid out before you. Tell us what you see. Do they fit with her approach? Do they not correspond? What do you see in the first and last cards of each line? What do they mean to you? Do the second cards in each sequence relate to each other? Do the third cards? What does the Wheel of Fortune in the exact middle mean to you?
Jeanette
08-02-2002, 20:35
I used my Universal Waite deck and laid out the cards in three rows of seven, and when I looked at it, Justice XI was in the middle, not Wheel of Fortune X. ??
The Cosmic Tarot has Justice and Strength exchanged.
So I'm studying the first card in each grouping, and see tremendous similiarities between the Magician and Justice - graphically the smiliarities are pronounced, and I can intuit that they represent different things but in a similar way.
I'm not grasping how the Devil card works this way.
It's as if I see apple, banana, (ok, I can make some sense of that) pencil (huh?).
I laid this one out, and stared a while, all the time wondering what the hell Strengt was doing under the Magician and above the Devil! So, I swapped Strength and Justice round (Something very unusual for me, but then again, I don't use numerologyor astrology in my readings, so it really wouldn't matter for me where Strength went!), and it suddenly clicked!
I then re-named each vertical row. (Feel free to disagree with me on these names!)
Row 1: (Magician, Justice, Devil) The Instigators, the Initiators. The Magician is the frist active spark, Justice is that which instigates the law of give and take, and the Devil is that which causes you to have the desire to beak free from bonds.
Row 2: (High Priestess, Hermit, Tower) Inner Wisdom, or Introspection. The High Priestess is keeper of inner mysteries. The Hermit is the card of introspection and prudence. The Tower sees a break down of outer, false boundaries and foundations, leaving you with your true inner self.
Row 3: (Empress, Wheel of Fortune, Star) The Rejuvenators. The Empress gives birth to new life, rejuventing the world. The Wheel of Fortune turns, bringing new life round to where there was previously barren-ness. The Star pours water bck into a still pool, keeping it moving, preventing it from becoming stagnant. She brings hope, and new outlook.
Row4: (Emperor, Strength, Moon) The Subtle Rulers. The Emperor, whilst ruling firmly over his kingdom, is not mean or tyranical. He rules with confidence, and never uses force. Strength subtly tames the beast, again, without force. The Moon rules us without many of us realising it: Our bodies consist of 70% water, and the Moon rules the water, causing tides (Our emtional sways.) It also causes subtle deception.
Row 5: (High Priest, Hanged Man, Sun) Three Different Stages of Spiritual Outlook. The High Priest starts with the seeker needing a guide and a mediator, to set them on their way. The Hanged Man then sees a turn around in spirital outlook, with the seeker deciding to seek for themselves, and look at things diferently. The Sun sees the ultimate spiritual finding. The realisation of the self as sacred, beautiful, and god-like.
Row 6: (Lovers, Death, Judgement) Have not named this really. Kind of 'Letting Go' or 'Mirror of the Self'. The Lovers sees the seeker looking in the mirror, seeing the other side of themselves. Death sees them leaving behind of the past, in replacement for something new, then Judgment sees the actual letting go of the past, which leads to higher growth.
Row 7: (Chariot, Temperence, and World) Realisation. Chariot sees the seeker realising their own importance in their destiny, grasping the reins of life. Temperence sees them realising the importance of balance. And finally, the World sees them realising the ultimate dream.
Kiama
Jeanette
11-02-2002, 15:27
Good job, Kiama! I'm going to lay the cards out again tonight and study them with your interpretations :)
Something else I just noticed about the sequence, with the swapped Justice and Strength: Look at how similar the Magician, Justice, and Devil (Row 1) are. They're all going for the 'as above, so below' look!
Kiama
This was difficult to do with the Legend: Arthurian deck! Here goes:
What stands out most is the Lady of the Lake as Justice in the center of the spread. Her arms are spread straight out at her sides as she rises from the lake. Beneath one hand hangs Excalibur, suspended in the air above the water. Beneath the other hand is the sword's scabbard. Thus her posture creates the form of the scales usually associate with Justice. It forms a great centerpiece for the whole spread.
I did see a connection to what RP says in Chapter 3 about the rows representing (top to bottom): consciousness, the subconscious, and the super-consciousness. The top row features, in order, Merlin, Nimue, Guenevere, Arthur, Taliesin, Gareth & Lyones, and the Battle of Mount Badon. They are (with the possible exception of Gareth & Lyones [who??!!]) some of the best known characters from the legends. They represent basic drives and desires. The Battle of Mount Badon at the end is particularly well placed, because it was the decisive battle that brought Arthur to prominence, and readied him for the next stage of his career.
The second row features cards that depict more mythical or dreamlike characters and events. With such titles as Percivale's Vision and Arthur's Dream, you realize that at this stage in your journey through the Majors, you're entering another realm entirely...you have to go deeper into yourself to reach the next level.
The final row was a little more difficult for me. It seems to have lots of situations involving prophecy (Star-"Firedrake"), reading signs and portents (Moon-"Morgan Le Fay"), and ignoring signs of doom (Tower-"Vortigern's Fortress"). It seems to point to the idea of applying what you've learned about yourself (and your connection to your inner resources) to your connection with the superconscious.
Does that make any sense? I'm watching the Olympics as I write this, so I'm a little distracted!
Peace,
Melvis
Talisman
12-02-2002, 14:01
Arizonagirl, Melvis, all,
No contribution here. Just wanted to say I will be a constant reader.
Fascinating, valuable stuff here!
Talisman
Kiama, thanks for this splendid contribution, I know it will help me looking at them Templar cards. To be continued....
Kaz
My impressions, using the Templar Tarot.
This a Rider Waite based deck, so the cards put in this order fit the approach of the 3 sequences mentioned in the book.
Worldly Sequence:
- Starts with the Magician, a female dancing around like in trance with 8 arms distributing the raw powers she has (for detailed description of card see my post on chapter1).
- Ends with Chariot, a gray bearded fellow wearing armor and holding a big scythe in his right hand, and the reigns to the 2 unicorns pulling his cart in the left hand. He looks fully in control and having succeeded in his stuggles in life so far.
The raw powers from the Magician have been given direction and are being controlled now by the Chariot.
Turning Inwards:
- Starts with Strenght. A monk-like figure with a little beard, dressed in a brown robe with a hood sits praying near the window in his room in a high place (tower?). Around him are "people", a pile of books, pots, skulls everywhere, in the ground and in the air, bones and huge nails driven in the floor. A bit scaring and depressing atmosphere. I didn't have a clue where these figures all stood for, so I had to consult the LWB for this card. The LWB tells these surroundings are his soul's dark aspects, and at first he is unable to accept them, but he knows this must be done or he will never see truth.
- Ends with Temperance. A bare-chested male figure, not looking very healthy, as if he has been hit two black eyes ( he looks pathetic). He has a ring of thorns around his head and holds a huge purple piece of cloth (curtain?) with a white cross on it in front of him. In the background are some rock-like structures, in the middle where he stands it's paved with stones, and in the foreground there is most of the purple cloth and 7 books of knowledge.
The haunting dark aspects of the soul in Strenght have been accepted in Temperance, though the rebirth this Temperance shows is a dark one (in most decks it's glorious), not looking very happy towards the future. Getting to know yourself is not a pleasant experience in this deck.
The Great Journey:
- Starts with the Devil. This is half a man and half an animal figure. From the waist down it is a hairy pair of animal legs with feet like goats have, and a tail that grows in the ground. The torso is a man, with horns on his head, one of them is broken.. He holds with his right hand a stick in a fire and with his left hand he is doing the thing you do in court when swearing to speak the truth. The surroundings look like what you can expect to be the Hell, a barren landscape in orange/reddish colors with this fellow doing his act in the middle. Above him there is a tree-like structure, it hasn't got leaves, but it's branchy and they have something of thorns and a bonelike look. A dove flies between them.
- Ends with the World. Here you find all the elements blended to completion with a male/female person in the middle raising its arms high in joy. All darkness has been trown off and enlightment has set in.
To get to enlightment you have to start getting control over the raw powers, leading to a jouney through darkness within, passing your own Hell and finally reward is there......
I dont like the Wheel of Fortune in the middle in this deck as turning point, it's very obvious that the 3 stages as decribed in the book fit this deck.
Kaz
arizonagirl
14-02-2002, 12:22
Thank you, Jeannette, for advising me of my mistake.
I'm so very sorry that I made an error in the introduction. I saw the Justice card in the center, but became disoriented or had a mental lapse or something. I was unable to get back into the forum since I kept getting the "Internal Server Error".
Justice, with the right hand holding a sword and the left hand holding the scales, is supposed to be particularly significant in the middle position since the scales represent the balance of past and future. Also, taking responsibility for our past actions and moving forward.
Again, I sincerely apologize.
Hi all! Like Kiama I found that the vertical rows made more sense when working with my deck although my take is just a bit different than hers. I used the Cosmic Tribe, and Balance (Justice) is 8 so I did not have the strength/justice placing dilema.
THE CARDS AS A SEQUENCE: To me, this particular decks (Cosmic Tribe) Major Arcana seemed to be designed as separate entities in terms of the 3 horizontal rows of 7 cards. Each Major Arcana in this deck shows each card representing a different quality. I do not see the natural progression on horizontal lines as I do with the Robin Wood or Raider Waite for example. Sure you can make the correlation based on previous knowledge, but at first glance I would not make the connection. HOWEVER, in looking at the 7 vertical columns of 3 cards each I do see their connection and progression regarding levels of experience and development.
LEVELS OF EXPERIENCE: Based on the book, and the loud messages I was getting from the deck at the time I did this exercise, I have named the 7 columns as follows:
THE COLUMN OF THE WILL (Magician (1), Balance (8), Devil (15)): The Magician is manifesting his will, Balance is evaluating and directing the will from an inward perspective, and the challenges you in what you will do with your will. Will you hold fast or sucumb to temptation even when you know the consequences? The Devil places the will against your choices.
THE COLUMN OF PERSONAL INTEGRATION (HP (2), Hermit (9), Tower (16): This line focuses on the integration and understanding of the self and gaining wisdom. The HP takes us through the journey of spiritual discovery and enlightenment; the Hermit processes what we learned in our HP experience and who we are giving us wisdom; the Tower is the honest recognition and acceptance of who we are based on this wisdom. This honesty can lead us to facing the aspects of self that we do not like or are not trully real about ourselves, and to make changes within that will more fully integrate us spiritually and personally. This can be a very painful process and to others who believe the "know us" as they may see us changing when what we are doing is integrating.
THE COLUMN OF COMPLETENESS (Empress (3), Wheel (10), Star (17): After completing our personal integration phase, we can now see where we fit into the cosmic puzzle. The Empress is the nurturing and connection to earth; the Wheel our connection to one and other as well as the cycles of life-death-rebirth, the ups and downs of life, etc.; the Star is our connection to the collective unconscious (or Akashik records) ... the pool of cosmic knowledge each of us leaves during each life time.
Continued from above:
THE COLUMN OF POWER (Emperor (4), Strength (11), Moon (18)): With the Emperor we see earthly power; with Strength our inner power or strength; with the Moon our spiritual power. All aspects where we draw power or strength from.
THE COLUMN OF REALIZATION: (Heirophant (5), Hanged Man (12), Sun (19)): The Heirophant teaches us the ways of the societies into which we are born ... values, norms, traditions; the Hanged Man is our questioning of these values, norms and traditions and finding and acting on what these mean to us ... this is a period of experimentation and limbo ... a time of finding what works for us; Once we have come to terms, accepted and rejected and gained confidence in who we are and how we feel, like the Sun we rise with our convictions and beliefs and trully start our lives and with greater appreciation than before.
THE COLUMN OF EMOTION (Lovers (6), Death (13), Emergence (20)): The Lovers looks at human relationships in all aspects (romantic love, partnerships, choices); Death looks at the turmoils we go through with change in these relationships, not only change but also endings, how our souls cry out in (fear, dispair, sadness, loss) until released and then emerge stroger due to the experience. The Emergence card is our emergence from the situation with greater wisdom and knowledge and the new peace we find in ourselves. The descent in this column takes us to a higher emotional level.
THE COLUMN OF MASTERY (Chariot (7), Art (14), Universe (21)): This column is the summary of personal and spiritual achievement and mastery. The Chariot shows how we have mastered our living in this world; Art shows how we have overcome joyful and painful transitions, passed initiations and made specific decisions that free our souls; The Universe shows our harmony with all that was, is, and ever well be. We are one with the Universe at all 3 levels, conscious, unconscious and superconscious.
Just moving this to the top. For some reason I cannot retrieve threads once they go past 30 days and I was not sure if I am the only with that problem so I am moving this post up as I think we might have some new people joining in.
Hope y'all don't mind me bumping this thread back "up". :D Thought I would since several of us have started going through the book quite recently and want to do these excercises ourselves.... Looking forward to reading (and posting) some new thoughts.
Thanks ArizonaGirl for starting this chapter for us.
First: Arizonagirl - it's alright that you made a little mistake in your original post... it proves your human. ;)
Using the Röhrig deck I didn't really get the same visual connections that Ms. Pollack shows between The Magician, Strength and The Devil. (For instance the link between the infinity symbol over the heads of Magician and Strength with the pentagram above the Devil's head - these symbols do not appear as a major part of the cards in the Röhrig deck.) However, the 3 paths represented by the 3 lines of 7 cards is evident in this deck (the Conscious, Sub-conscious and Super-conscious). I also noticed a few, I thought, interesting relations across these lines as I studied each of the 3-card verticle groups. These relations appeared to me to picture kind of a "beginning - advancement - completion" step through several phases of experience. (Many of the ideas and words I use are found on the cards themselves.)
Line 1 - Magus - Strength - Devil: These seem to all relate to phases of learning our personal power. The Magus relating to communication, genius, the power of thought. Strength showing the our power over ourselves. The Devil appears to me to relate to our awareness of powers beyond ourselves.
Line 2 - High Priestess - The Hermit - The Tower: These relate to our journey through self awareness. High Priestess as the beginnings of our awareness and learning. Through The Hermit who is finding himself and beginning to lead others. Ending with the Tower which has to do with the complete overthrow of our old ideas and ideals.
Line 3 - Empress - Wheel of Fortune - The Star: Emotional Growth. Empress shows fertility (of thought), creativity. Wheel of Fortune, perhaps again showing the middle of the journey with self realization. The Star having to do with inspiration, self-confidence - crystalization of our ideas.
Line 4 - Emperor - Justice - Moon: This is our movement through life. The Emperor recognizing the boundaries and restrictions of Society. Justice - adjusting to and/or achieving a balance in the world. The Moon - the coming of awareness of our own sub-conscious and the super-conscious.
Line 5 - Heirophant - Hanged Man - Sun: These relate to our spiritual journey. The Heirophant showing the ways, the rituals of organized religion. The Hanged Man representing a release from these structures - new ways of looking at things. The Sun showing us our revelry of our new spirituality.
Line 6 - The Lovers - Death - The Judgement: This is the path of learning love. The Lovers representing physical love. Death showing change, re-birth. Then The Judgement showing an awakening - to spiritual love.
Line 7 - The Chariot - Temperence - The World: These appear to also relate to our spiritual journey. The Chariot having to do with victory - reaching a goal - the end of a race (as indicated by the checkered flag reflected in the charioteer's helmet). Temperence is showing alchemy, transformation - how we will be uniting the opposites of life - nature/spirit for instance. Then The World shows us reaching our full enlightenment.
Well - that's my take on it anyway...
I find it interesting to see how many of us actually related best to the 7 rows of 3 than the 3 rows of 7. I also find it interesting how the positioning of strength and justice work within the sequences. Up until doing this exercise I really had no preference in the position of strength and justice, although I was more comfortable with strength in position VIII. After working through the exercise I walked away with a definete preferance for justice in position VIII.
Originally posted by arizonagirl
Examine the cards you’ve laid out before you. Tell us what you see. Do they fit with her approach? Do they not correspond? What do you see in the first and last cards of each line? What do they mean to you? Do the second cards in each sequence relate to each other? Do the third cards? What does the Wheel of Fortune in the exact middle mean to you?
Im using merryday, all cards can be seen at www.merrydaytarot.com
The cards in her approach fit rather nicely, especially with some of her renaming. Cards lik Apprentice (Magician), Mentor (Hierophant), and Student (chariot) are all on the first worldly line.
Some of the cards on the secons line are a bit harder to understand when relating to turning inwards, namely teacher (hermit) and journeyman (hanged man) but when you see the teacher as you giving yourself to others as opposed to learning (like student and mentor) and journeyman as learning what is in yourself they fit. The hardest of all to get is the last card, Time Lord (Temperance). The MerryDay book says "his job is to raise knowledge from the subconscience to conscience awareness" With that in mind its a fitting car to be the transit from turning inward to the great journey.
The great journey is done really well. It starts at the tempter (devil) card, which is much like any other devil card in looks. The tower is a self awaking, theres is a long winding road to the top, on top stands a man with his arms and legs outstretched infused with power, a hand holds 3 lighning bolts in the sky behind him, on the other side theres a great dragon, you can see someone else starting up the path at the bottom. Its a sign of true release. Then the star card, in which a woman and hawk see their dark reflection in an arch. both images have one foot n water the other on land, and the plant that grows around the arch has itself wound around the leg of each image. This is the facing of our shadow self, and once faced we can delve into the mysteries of the moon, after fully exploring the mysteries of the shadow side in the moon we can become whole he can progress, like a newborn, into the light of the sun.. Judgements a bit different, here the merfolk are escaping the Judgment of the world to be truly free. The the world synthesizes everything.
The first card in each line have to do with power, but they dont have the symbolism pollack mentions. Apprentice is external power, strength is internal power, and tempter is (attempted) power over others.
The last cards in each line have to do with a realization. The student realizes he has a lot to learn, the Time Lord brings subconscience knowledge to the conscience, and the World integrates all lessons learned.
The second cards teach of the self. The Oracle teaches ancient knowledge of self and how self works, the teacher the more personal aspects of self, and the tower the true place of self (which can be a shock)
(continued)
The third row is a cycle of enlightenment. It starts with the empress, where we are creative and feel we can control everything, then Lady Destiny (wheel) comes along and shows us we arent in as much control as we thought, but in the star we meet our shadowself, and again regain much of the control because we know who we are.
The fourth row is the row of thw whole of self, the Emperor represents body, he is solid and earthy, Justice represents mind, the brain has 2 halfs, the intuitive side and the logical side. The moon represents the Spirit, the mysteries of life and what is at our true center
the fifth row is the education of self on different levels nd how to use the tools of the different levels. The mentor teaches us the worldly things and how to use the tools of the world to hlp us. The journeyman teaches us the inner worlds and the internal tools we can use, and the Sun teaches the joy of the transcended world and the tools we can use with the knowledge it brings
The sixth row is all about interaction. In the Lovers we interact with another human in a worldly sense, in metamorphosis (death) we interact within ourself to bring about change, and in Judgement we interact with he Higher Powers to transcend beyond.
Justice in the middle shows a lot, at the top of the card are rainbow radiating rays that point up to the worldly experience row, showing we gain our "color" from our worldly experiences.. In the bottom left of the card is a dark abyss filled with a spiderweb, this points to the dark half of the line journey line (tempter tower star and moon) the bottom right is filled with see and a manta ray that points to the more enlightened half of the journey line, with water being symbolic of the sunbconscience it is fitting. Justice stands on a globe (the world being the center is also fitting) with her arms straigh out, weach hand holding a cup that steams. This shows the balance of all
:THP
Originally posted by Jewel
I find it interesting to see how many of us actually related best to the 7 rows of 3 than the 3 rows of 7. I also find it interesting how the positioning of strength and justice work within the sequences. Up until doing this exercise I really had no preference in the position of strength and justice, although I was more comfortable with strength in position VIII. After working through the exercise I walked away with a definete preferance for justice in position VIII.
Actually Jewel... I had kind of gathered from the book that this was kind of what the excercise was about. Looking downward across these 3 rows of 7 cards to see how each verticle line relates. At least that was how Ms. Pollack had us look at the beginning of each row of 7.
As for the positioning of Strength and Justice - my preference is still with Strength as VIII and Justice at XI. I think this is mostly due to my experience with the Tarot of Marseilles when I was first beginning to learn Tarot. This deck just did not work for me and it has Justice at VIII. But the Rider-Waite deck did work well for me with Strength at VIII.
This was a great excercise though in any case and has spawned some very good discussion of the Major Arcana and how they relate to one another. Even though I focused on the verticle lines, while I was studying them, I "got" the horizontal relationships as well.
Originally posted by Trogon
Actually Jewel... I had kind of gathered from the book that this was kind of what the excercise was about. Looking downward across these 3 rows of 7 cards to see how each verticle line relates. At least that was how Ms. Pollack had us look at the beginning of each row of 7.
This was a great excercise though in any case and has spawned some very good discussion of the Major Arcana and how they relate to one another. Even though I focused on the verticle lines, while I was studying them, I "got" the horizontal relationships as well.
Hi Torgon! I think you are right in that she wanted us to look at both the vertical and horizontal relationships. I got much more out of the vertical relationships than I did the horizontal ones although they did make sense.
I also agree that when working through 78D great discussions emerge around specific decks and cards. I will probably study any deck I want to explore against this book to get to know its symbolism and understand it. The comparison process is a very effective learning method for me.
I've been in a real crunch for time lately and really miss working on this :(
Joywalker
15-11-2002, 21:10
Thanks Holmes!
Found it! Gonna *bump* it up ,so the others could see and join us too!!
I found it interesting in reading these posts that many columns are describes as A is moving forward in alpha way on the phisical plane while B is forward on the subconcious and c forward on the super-concious. Yet most described the fifth column kind of inverted with B the Hanged Man moving backwards on the unconcious level. I hope that made sense.
Originally posted by juice
I found it interesting in reading these posts that many columns are describes as A is moving forward in alpha way on the phisical plane while B is forward on the subconcious and c forward on the super-concious. Yet most described the fifth column kind of inverted with B the Hanged Man moving backwards on the unconcious level. I hope that made sense.
Interesting thought, juice. Though my personal take on this (originally) was more a moving forward from the strictures of The Heirophant, through the new outlook of The Hanged Man, to the spiritual, child-like joy of The Sun. I believe I can vaguely see your point. Perhaps you could elaborate a little bit more?
Silverlotus
22-12-2002, 21:21
I picked up Seventy-Eight Degrees of Wisdom yesterday as a little Yule gift for myself. :) I've finished Chapter One and Two so far. I didn't really have anything to add to the posts so far on Chapter One, but I do have some ideas for Chapter 2. I'd like to note that I am using the Robin Wood Tarot. I haven't worked with it much yet, and I don't have Ms. Wood's book.
First, I took a look at the Majors split into two groups. Ms. Pollack only really mentions this division in passing, but I thought it was interesting. I paired the cards as columns. I saw some correlation between the pairs.
- Magician & Justice - merging of the elements and their balance
- High Priestess & Hanged Man - hidden wisdom
- Empress & Death - fertility and rebirth
- Emperor & Temperance - security
- Hierophant & Devil - bondage (either to old traditions or material items)
- Lovers & Tower - relationships, either good or bad
- Chariot & Star - hope
- Strength & Moon - courage, conviction
- Hermit & Sun - search and its successful outcome
- Wheel of Fortune & Judgement - Change
That leaves The Fool and The World, but that was covered in Chapter One.
I noticed a few people switched Strength and Justice, and in these pairings I can see Strength paired with the Magician. However, the pairing of Justice and the Moon doesn't seem right to me.
One to the three rows of seven cards!
- Magician through Chariot => Consciousness
- begins with learning how to use our skills and talents, and moving on to examine the hidden areas of our personality and the authority we have over others and they have over us
- we then develop a need/desire for spiritual and romantic fulfillment
- then come to a point where we believe we are victorious, but are we really?
- Strength through Temperance => Subconscious
- we develop the strength & courage to realise there is more, so we withdraw into a search
- there are many ups and downs on this path, but soon we find a balanced way and then make some sacrifice to obtain the wisdom/knowledge we desire => leads to a rebirth and discovery of our true self
- Devil through World => Superconscious
- we can often enter a dark period if we continue our spiritual search because of the difficulty we may feel in relationships with people who have not or are not embarking on such a journey
- sooner or later, we find a ray of hope, and through a desire for safety and security (for our mental well being and the well being of our relationships) we learn to deal with these issues
- this opens up a new lightness of spirit and a spiritual understanding which will (hopefully) ultimately end in a joining with the divine
This series of three paths seems to me very spiral-like. In each path, similar challenges are encountered, but each time we are at a different level.
Silverlotus
22-12-2002, 21:34
To continue, I also examined the cards as seven columns of three.
- Magician, Strength, Devil -- Power
- we first learn the extent of our power/skills
- then we learn to temper our use of these powers with compassion and courage
- finally, we learn to move beyond the limitations the powers set on us, or that we have set because of them
- High Priestess, Hermit, Tower -- Introspection
- first comes a search for inner wisdom using outside sources (books, other people, etc.)
- then comes the time when we withdraw to search within ourselves
- then the Tower shows the shattering effects of discovering what in truly within
- Empress, Wheel of Fortune, The Star -- Creation
- we start by realising our creative powers
- but we tread a difficult, and often rewarding path to create
- and when our project it finally birthed, we discovery a great feeling of hope and contentment
- Emperor, Justice, Moon -- Rulers
- first is the recognition of societies basic structure, mores, and norms
- then we discover the justice and balance in the world
- then comes the recognition of nature's rulership over us (the Moon rules the tides, etc.)
- Hierophant, Hanged Man, Sun -- Spirituality
- first comes our search for spirituality through organised religion and established traditions
- then we enter a solitary quest
- and finally (hopefully! :) ) we find the light of spiritual enlightenment
- Lovers, Death, Judgement -- Love
- there is our first experience with love
- which often ends in sadness, but leads to a rebirth
- and this leads us either to our soul mate, or a discovery of spiritual love (I'm a romantic at heart!)
- Chariot, Temperance, The World -- Realisation
- begins with the realisation of our own role in the world, our destiny/lessons/whatever
- next comes the realisation of harmony and how to combine different aspects of ourself and the world to achieve balance
- finally comes the World, the realisation that everything is i connected, each part of the a whole
This was a really interesting exercise. I'm not sure that I have ever looked at the cards in this way.
Macavity
22-12-2002, 23:24
Originally posted by Silverlotus
This was a really interesting exercise. I'm not sure that I have ever looked at the cards in this way.
I do agree - and have Ms. Pollack's book :) Oddly enough this very afternoon, I was looking at the trumps grouped in three rows of seven. Fwiw, I had also been studying the piece(s) on: http://www.tarothermit.com/ordering2.htm There are (imo) interesting echos of all KINDS of (deliberate?) symmetries. I was particularly intrigued by the recurrence of (quoting from the website):
"In the Marseilles ordering, though, there is another pattern which supports this placement of Temperance: the Christian virtues are placed three apart (8 Justice, 11 Fortitude, 14 Temperance). If the pattern of threes is extended backwards, it picks up other Christian icons (5 Pope and 2 Papess). If it is extended forward, it finds the Star and the Angel."
And more besides? Even switching the 8 and 11 from the Marseille ordering preserves THAT idea at least! But I really find the notion of arrangement into columns is also useful, in breaking the arcana into managable chunks, especially for the memory challenged like me. :D
Not a lot else to offer, merely thanks for underlining a useful and interesting aspect to study. IF the originators of Tarot were capable of incorporating Seven (and Four-fold, and other?) symmetries, it must have taken a lot of sophisticated thinking :)
Anything else on VERTICAL association would indeed be interesting...
Mac
catboxer
22-12-2002, 23:56
All the interpretations I've read here and elsewhere of the trumps as a unified sequence depend for the most part on the Marseilles ordering of the cards, which has certainly become the "official" sequence. Complications arose after 1900 when the Golden Dawn altered the Marseilles sequence by switiching the places of Justice and Strength, as several posters alluded to here. That debate still continues; the sequence of the remaining 20 cards is not generally argued.
However, it might be worthwhile to remember that there were numerous trump orders prior to establishment of the Marseilles sequence as the "right" one. One of the more common is laid out in the Steele Sermon, that famous anti-tarot diatribe preached by an anonymous Franciscan priest sometime between 1450 and 1480, and published in a book of sermons about 1500.
The order of the 21 trumps, as the priest enumerated them are: 1) El Bagatella, 2) Imperatrix, 3) Imperator, 4) La Papessa, 5) El Papa, 6) La Temperentia, 7) L'Amore, 8) Le Caro Trimphale, 9) La Forteza, 10) La Rotta (wheel), 11) El Gobbo (hunchback), 12)) Lo Impichato (traitor), 13) Morte, 14) El Diavolo, 15) La Sagitta (arrow), 16) La Stella, 17) La Luna, 18) El Sole, 19) Lo Angelo (angel), 20) La Iusticia, 21) El Mondo. He also names an un-numbered card, "El Matto sine Nulla" (the madman who means nothing), whom we know as the Fool.
The trumps are all basically the same ones we know and love, but the oder is substantially altered. Laying these 21 out in triads of seven yields significantly different meanings than doing so with more modern sequences.
Moongold
23-12-2002, 07:35
I used Shining Tribe for this exercise. It is Rachel Pollack's most recent deck, and she has made significant changes.
Hierophant has become Tradition
Wheel of Forune has become Spiral of Fortune
Hanged Man is now Hanged Woman
Judgement is now Awakening
The World is now World - Shining Woman
The Minor Arcana has changed as well but I won't go into detail about that now.
This deck is unusual in that you could attribute traditional meanings to the cards or you could learn completely new meanings. Each card is replete with symbolism from other cultures and other times. The deck could stand on its own terms in some ways but I think it works better if you have a background in traditional tarot. The traditional meanings still form foundation, I think.
The interpretations Rachel Pollck gives are gentle and insightful, based on a blend of the new imagery with its own meanings and traditional tarot. Knowing the latter makes the experience much richer but the other way could stand on its own. Doing it the latter way possibly makes the deck into an oracle. One of the reasons I love this deck is the change. The historical and cultural material makes the deck original and fresh.
Reading the columns across I can still get a strong feel of the Fool's journey as a narrative. There is more a thematic sense when reading the vertical columns of seven threes. I get a lot reading it either way. A few weeks ago I began to see groups of cards instead of individual entities and this has changed a lot of what I understand about reading tarot.
To get the most out of this deck you would need to learn new meanings. Reading simply intuitively without the background might be difficult.
78 DW was written in the late 80's I think. It is an extraordinary book but Pollack has also come quite a long way since then. It is interesting to observe her progression since then.
Thanks for sharing,
Moongold
Macavity
23-12-2002, 07:49
THAT's exactly it Dave. It depends rather crucially on ONE ordering of the major Arcana. Even introducing one card into the sequence would change the vertical associations rather a lot - Simply everything "slips" :D Certainly this arrangement of Pollack is convenient - And table sized!
Then I do wonder - Was the Marseille DESIGNED with a "seven-fold" symmetry in mind? (As ever) Who knows? Some of this seems reasonably compelling... and perhaps SELF consistent?
Mac
I am really glad to see the 78DW threads being revived. I have learned so much, and continue to learn so much, from the exchange of knowledge/toughts/opinions/ideas we have shared in the 78DW threads. I hope to have Chapter 5 ready by the end of the month (unless someone else would like to do it before then :D)