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BigLuna
27-03-2009, 21:28
Someone mentioned to me recently that, in Europe, Saturn is associated with the mother.

I'm in the US, and all my studies have associated the moon with mother and Saturn with the father.

Is this accurate?

willowfox
27-03-2009, 21:47
Yes, think of father time.

Maggiemay
27-03-2009, 22:13
I have not come across anything suggesting that saturn would be link to the mother.

While we are talking about Saturn, I actually read that it is the planet that represents comedians!

Apparently, saturn/moon hard aspects would potentially make very funny comedians. That's, however, far, faaaaaar from being the consensus!

Personally, I would think that jupiter or Uranus would have to be involved somehow into the mix....

Maggie :)

BigLuna
27-03-2009, 22:50
I don't think I stated my question very well. I'll try again.

If you learned astrology in the UK or European countries, were you taught that Saturn is associated with the mother? I'd like to hear more about it, if that's the case.

Just curious.

cardlady22
28-03-2009, 00:08
Does this go back to the pairs of gods/goddesses? Where Rhea, or Ceres/Demeter, is the partner of Kronos, or Saturn.

Somewhere around my Internet searches, I've seen a theory that back when the zodiac signs were set up, they might have been only 6, which were then split to give the current 12.

ETA: I have found quite a number of weird webpages out there, though! I can't begin to count how many have picqued my curiosity, only to be told that the premise the person operates from is total nonsense.

Minderwiz
28-03-2009, 00:26
Well I'm in the UK and Saturn is definitely not associated with the mother in any mainstream tradition.

To quote William Lilly, 'He is...called Saturn...He is the supreme or highest planet'


No question there about the sex of Saturn. Much later Liz Greene, admittedly born in New Jersey but with an English father and resident in Europe for most of her adult life, clearly refers to Saturn as a male, in her book 'Saturn a new look at an old devil'

Most of the tradition comes down from late classical Greece (which in turn was influenced by Egyptian and Babylonian Astrologies, amongst others). The Greeks (who are of course European) saw Saturn as clearly a male planet.

I've read Jean Baptiste Morin (French) and I've seen nothing there to suggest that Saturn is any other than male.

The only time I would associate Saturn with a female is in a horary reading where Saturn rules the first cusp (querent) or rules the cusp of the quessited (subject of the question).

Now it may well be that some obscure Astrologer or school of Astrologers has formulated Saturn as female or there is some obscure tradition of Saturn as female but it is not a mainstream European view, as far as I know.

Starshower
28-03-2009, 02:38
Sorry, have changed my mind about posting this.

BigLuna
28-03-2009, 05:37
Thank you all. I had never read or heard anything about Saturn as mother, and it struck me as very odd.

rif
28-03-2009, 05:53
This question put me in mind of a tarot podcast I was listening to this morning. The subject was the four Queens. It's not strictly astrology, but the Tree of Life sephiroth of Binah is also "the mother," and is associated to Saturn. Perhaps that had something to do with it?

ravenest
28-03-2009, 10:08
I am not familiar with female Saturn either in any MAINSTEAM ASTOLOGICAL tradition. However there is a possible connection here via Tarot / Qabbalah that may have 'leaked' into some astrological viewpoints. Some schools of Astro/tarot (Golden Dawn , Thoth & clones) use a specific western Hermetic Qabbalah to correspond their cards and astrological energies with. In this system Saturn relates to the Sphere Binah which is also the Great Sea, Mother, etc. Its position is usually seen as female.

Without getting too off into Qabbalah, Saturn (in this instance) is seen as a contained and formulated and enclosing force (a triangle and the number 3) and that, I guess relates to the female, the womb and the processes of formation and gestation, after this is birth, and on the Qabbalistic Tree of Life the Sphere of saturn is the one above the Abyss, the incomprehensible world before form, so Saturn (Binah), like the Mother creates form and structure. A reflection of this can be seen in astrology where saturn can represent form, structure and even 'hinderance' (restriction, discipline, etc) - that is one aspect, as energy comes 'down' into manifestation, but 'going up' the converse applies and the sphere of saturn brings liberation and freedom, as the form breaks down, realeasing energy into spirit.

There is a possible physical connection with this idea in that Saturn, then the 'furthest out planet' - before space (and the stars) represents the first formations of energy that come from the cosmos, in this way it can be seen as a type of 'womb' for the cosmic energies coming into the solar system.

[For more on this - in an astro sense - see the works of Rudolf Stiener ]

BigLuna
28-03-2009, 13:14
Excellent info, and worth a good pondering. Saturn is definitely form, and the womb symbolism is very fitting.

Thank you so much for that.

kwaw
28-03-2009, 14:43
My first thought was the Saturn - Binah - Mother connection.

But note also that in Traditional Astrology any planet as ruler of the sign on the cusp of the tenth house can signify the mother, for example Capricorn or Aquarius on the cusp of the 10th would result in Saturn being the planetary significator of the mother, as for example here:

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/parents_answers.html

Grigori
28-03-2009, 14:49
But note also that in Traditional Astrology any planet as ruler of the sign on the cusp of the tenth house can signify the mother, for example Capricorn or Aquarius on the cusp of the 10th would result in Saturn being the planetary significator of the mother, as for example here:[/url]

Perhaps this is an argument strengthened somewhat for Saturn in particular, as Capricorn is the 10th sign, so in a (I think they call it) "natural chart" Capricorn would rule the 10th house and so Saturn would be the mother.

kwaw
28-03-2009, 15:03
Perhaps this is an argument strengthened somewhat for Saturn in particular, as Capricorn is the 10th sign, so in a (I think they call it) "natural chart" Capricorn would rule the 10th house and so Saturn would be the mother.

The moon is generally taken as the 'natural' or 'fixed' significator of 'mother'; as acquired or 'accidental' significator Saturn is not generally given any special precedence over any other accidental significator. But note also that in modern western and indian vedic astrology systems the fourth house is generally taken as the significator of mother (with 10th as significator of the father in western astrology and the 9th in vedic).

Minderwiz
28-03-2009, 19:50
My first thought was the Saturn - Binah - Mother connection.

But note also that in Traditional Astrology any planet as ruler of the sign on the cusp of the tenth house can signify the mother, for example Capricorn or Aquarius on the cusp of the 10th would result in Saturn being the planetary significator of the mother, as for example here:

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/parents_answers.html

I think we need to distinguish between the sex of a planet and when it is used as a significator of something.

Saturn is a male planet, and has been seen as such in Western (and Vedic) Astrology back to Babylonian times. However it can be used as a significator for the mother as ruler of the tenth cusp, especially but by no means exclusively in a horary chart.

That does not make Saturn female, nor does it have to indicate any physical or mental characteristics of the mother (unless of course the question requires that information). In exactly the same way Venus or the Moon could be a significator of a male but is does not mean that the planet changes sex.

The tenth House is primarily concerned with social status, career and the adult self expressed in the world - it's at the zenith of the chart. It represents the mother as being the seventh house from the fourth (the house of the father, i.e. the mother is the partner of the father. It can also be the father of your partner (fourth from the seventh), or the male child of one of your servants (fifth from the sixth), or the male (or female) puppy of your pet dog (fifth from the sixth).

It is not the house that is female, it is the person or thing that is being inquired about, whether you are using 'natural houses' or any other system of houses.

This does not preclude somebody somewhere saying that Saturn is female, however as Revenest points out that's not a mainstream, or even minority Astrological view. Whilst not an expert in the Qabbalah, I don't see anything in the symbolism, that requires Saturn to be female. The distinction being between the planet and the thing that it signifies.

Sophie
28-03-2009, 19:53
there is a possible connection here via Tarot / Qabbalah that may have 'leaked' into some astrological viewpoints. Some schools of Astro/tarot (Golden Dawn , Thoth & clones) use a specific western Hermetic Qabbalah to correspond their cards and astrological energies with. In this system Saturn relates to the Sphere Binah which is also the Great Sea, Mother, etc. Its position is usually seen as female.

Without getting too off into Qabbalah, Saturn (in this instance) is seen as a contained and formulated and enclosing force (a triangle and the number 3) and that, I guess relates to the female, the womb and the processes of formation and gestation, after this is birth, and on the Qabbalistic Tree of Life the Sphere of saturn is the one above the Abyss, the incomprehensible world before form, so Saturn (Binah), like the Mother creates form and structure. A reflection of this can be seen in astrology where saturn can represent form, structure and even 'hinderance' (restriction, discipline, etc) - that is one aspect, as energy comes 'down' into manifestation, but 'going up' the converse applies and the sphere of saturn brings liberation and freedom, as the form breaks down, realeasing energy into spirit.This association of Binah/Mother with Saturn is the case in Jewish Kabbalah too. One explation for that is that the origin of the Father is contained in the Mother.

There is a possible physical connection with this idea in that Saturn, then the 'furthest out planet' - before space (and the stars) represents the first formations of energy that come from the cosmos, in this way it can be seen as a type of 'womb' for the cosmic energies coming into the solar system.Another possible connection is mythological and Egyptian, where the original Creator deity, Neith, is both male and female, androgynous - both Father Time and Mother of Creation. Neith is a far-away god/dess. The Egyptians called Saturn Horus, Bull of Sky - but Horus was inevitably linked to his mother-wife Hathor ("house/womb of Horus") - another possible Mother connection - especially as Hathor was also a Cow and Sky goddess (her milk was the milky way), and the Cow is the genitrix, the origin of Bulls.


The Saturn archetype as purely male is a patriarchal development of the Greeks, then the Romans, but neither astrology nor mythology started with them. The Binah/Saturn correlation could be a throwback to an earlier, more androgynous father-mother association; or to the idea that Mother contains Father.

kwaw
28-03-2009, 20:20
This association of Binah/Mother with Saturn is the case in Jewish Kabbalah too. One explation for that is that the origin of the Father is contained in the Mother.



Yes, the attribution of Saturn with Binah can be found among oldest of the SY commentaries, including one which Luria described as being the most accurate of all the commentaries. Modern Judaic Kabbalah primarily uses the 'corrected' version of the SY by the Gra, who sought to 'correct' the various versions to conform with the Zohar [and in the process creating yet one more redaction of the SY]. Some of these older commentaries often appear to emphasise astrological considerations over theological; however the suppression or neglect of these particular correspondences in Jewish sources in modern Jewish Kabbalah is probably more because of their association with Sabbatean messianism.

kwaw
28-03-2009, 20:39
Yes, the attribution of Saturn with Binah can be found among oldest of the SY commentaries.... however the suppression or neglect of these particular correspondences in Jewish sources in modern Jewish Kabbalah is probably more because of their association with Sabbatean messianism.

Saturn, Binah, Messiah (www.books.google.co.uk/books?id=AT8GF9EciLEC&pg=PA181&dq=saturn+binah+messiah#PPA181,M1)

Satun/binah as womb of the Messiah links in also with images of Isis/Horus Mary/Christ.

Another possible connection is mythological and Egyptian, where the original Creator deity, Neith, is both male and female, androgynous - both Father Time and Mother of Creation. Neith is a far-away god/dess. The Egyptians called Saturn Horus, Bull of Sky - but Horus was inevitably linked to his mother-wife Hathor ("house/womb of Horus") - another possible Mother connection - especially as Hathor was also a Cow and Sky goddess (her milk was the milky way), and the Cow is the genitrix, the origin of Bulls.



For pre-GD attributions that follow the same correspondence for example see 'Qabalah' by Papus [1892] in Chapter III on divine names in which the same attributions as GD are made. For Christian cabala see also the table in Papus from R.Esprit Sabbathier, 'Ombre ideale de la sargessa universelle', 1679, which also gives the same attributions. For example of the connection between Binah, Saturn and the Messiah in Jewish Kabbalah see for example 'Messianic Mystics' by Moshe Idel, under the section subtitled 'Messiah, Binah, Saturn' from p187 on. For example of the relation of Saturn to the Sabbath, the two Hei of the divine name JHVH and to Binah and Malkuth see for example 'The Book of Creation and its commentaries' by Leonard Glotzer. For example of concentric ring model of sephiroth and its correspondence to the geocentric model [eg, 1st outer ring = kether = primum mobile, next 2nd inner ring = chokmah = wheel of the heavens; 3rd ring = binah = saturn; etc] see for example reproduction of Italian manuscript c.1400 on page 321 of 'Alchemy and Mysticism' by Alexander Roob.

Minderwiz
28-03-2009, 21:45
The Saturn archetype as purely male is a patriarchal development of the Greeks, then the Romans, but neither astrology nor mythology started with them. The Binah/Saturn correlation could be a throwback to an earlier, more androgynous father-mother association; or to the idea that Mother contains Father.

Well the Babylonians and Assyrians identified Saturn with Ninurta a warrior god, the brother of Nergal (Mars). It is also very probable that Ninurta was the god 'Sakkut' (translated as Moloch in the King James Bible) referred to in the book of Amos - a male god. (see Michael Baigent - 'From the Omens of Babylon')

Now admittedly the Babylonians and Assyrians seeme at times to identify Saturn with Shamash (along with the Sun) but Shamash too is a male deity

The earliest known mesopotamian reference to Saturn has been dated to around 1800 BCE (though as with all such archaelogical dating some care must be taken and this is not universally accepted). In the Enuma Elish Saturn is referred to as 'the star of law and order'

Now again none of this proves that Saturn can only be male and, for the early civilisations our knowledge is imperfect, to say the least. However I think there's enough evidence to suggest that Saturn's masculinity has a history of over 3000 years, and possibly much longer, not withstanding minority views.