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Maggiemay
08-04-2009, 23:30
There are those who absolutely refute astrology due to their religious belief that the power of prayer ( and faith for that matter) overrides everything that the stars may point to.

It is an argument I run into quite often in my social circles.

How do we reconcile astrology with the power of prayer?


Maggie :)

Edited to shorten post

BigLuna
09-04-2009, 05:03
Astrology denotes character and is a marker of events, or destiny. It doesn't tell us how to respond to a particular event or what the outcome will be. That's up to us and, therefore, we also have free will. Destiny and free will exist simultaneously. They are yin and yang.

I believe that we each have a destiny, we each have events that we will have to face in life, and we can easily see those in a transit chart. Our character (composed of our natural leanings and our growth/decline through circumstances) determines how we will respond and, therefore, determines the eventual outcome. We each have the capacity to improve our character, thus changing the outcome of our destinies.

A Saturn transit through the 7th house will imply difficulties with, and perhaps the end of, a major relationship. That's destiny. We can site example after example of this happening in gazillions of charts.

How I respond to those difficulties and the choices I make will determine the outcome. That's free will.

This is why directed prayer, meditation, analysis, or looking inward are all fairly important to the best outcome of a destined event. It can help us to make wise choices.

With the Saturn/7th transit example, I can decide that my partner is a jerk and I'm not going to put up with it anymore. And maybe that's the best choice sometimes. Or I can do some work the faults I brought to the relationship, pay close attention to the nurturance of the relationship and my partner, thereby saving my relationship and changing my destiny.

To the "prayer changes everything" argument--that's just not true, although it might be nice if it was. I may have a major test coming up, and I must score a 94 to pass. I haven't been a very good student, so I decide to pray instead of study. What's the chance I'll pass that test with a 94?

I can study diligently, without prayer, and have a higher likelihood of passing the test.

If I study diligently, and offer a prayer of faith (which may boost my confidence and give me some ease), I will probably (hopefully) do quite well on the test.

The test is destiny. How I respond is free will. Study and prayer are both exceptional tools.

Maggiemay
09-04-2009, 05:28
Hey BigLuna,

Thank you for taking the time to write such a thorough reply to my question. I will actually take the time to ponder about what you wrote.

In all honesty, I must say that the question is one with which I tend to struggle. But then again, I also ''struggle'' with the whole concept of 'the secret' as seen on Oprah. Personally, I don't think it's that simple (strictly a personal opinion)...but I guess that's a discussion for another forum!lol

Now, for the fun part : Saturn in libra will be in my 7th house...and thanks to your post, I chewed my pretty nails up to my elbow!! lol

Maggie :)

BigLuna
09-04-2009, 05:45
Well, Maggie, if you've done your homework, Saturn will reward you. It's that simple. And don't go chewing your fingernails and create a self-fulfilling prophecy.

The secret is and isn't as simple as it sounds.

Maggiemay
09-04-2009, 05:54
Well, Maggie, if you've done your homework, Saturn will reward you. It's that simple.
I sure as heck hope so!!!!

The secret is and isn't as simple as it sounds.
I love the way you put it. I agree with you.

Maggie :)

Edited to add: No need for concern about my nails !!! lol
My remark was purely metaphorical!
I work too darn hard to keep my nails proper looking!! lol
I would eat cardboard before I ate my nails!

Sophie
09-04-2009, 07:51
Astrology a light shone into the Divine Mind, and through its diligent practice, we might get to understand some of Its patterns better. It was always, traditionally, an art and science praticed by highly spiritual people - mystics even - who also happened to be learned, wise and systematic scientists.

Those who say that astrology is futile as prayers can answer anything know little about the nature of either.

Maggiemay
09-04-2009, 08:25
(...) It was always, traditionally, an art and science praticed by highly spiritual people - mystics even - who also happened to be learned, wise and systematic scientists.

I know that Carl Jung was very into astrology and Einstein looked into it as well but I don't quite know where they stood ''religiously'' speaking...
I understand, too, that the Vatican has some extensive material about astrology in its vast library and that some of the priests who live there are very well versed in the science indeed.

Those who say that astrology is futile as prayers can answer anything know little about the nature of either.

Absolutely. However, there are those who would argue that these two cancel out each other...oh well, perhaps is it only a matter of perspective?

Thank you for your post,

Maggie :)

edited : typo error,( as usual)

Sophie
09-04-2009, 08:48
I was thinking of someone like Al-Biruni, who never had any trouble reconciling astrology, science and prayer; or Lilly, who actually called his book Christian Astrology, and saw in that science a way to accede to God's greatness.

I am particularly disturbed by a view of prayer that regards the divine (in whatever form we conceive of it) as some kind of Santa Claus who delivers goodies to nice children. It's an absurdly childish and materialistic view, miles away from any genuine spiritual encounter and understanding of soul growth. But of course, that view of prayer would not understand the role of astrology. The idea that some things are actually bad for our souls - no matter how much we want them - or not in the divine plan for us is frightening to the Santa Claus worshippers. They take "ask and you shall receive" literally. The idea that astrology might actually help in self-understanding and self-realisation, both material and spiritual, is not something they seem to grasp.

I think I'll stick with Al-Biruni and Lilly, who had no time for a Santa Claus god.

Maggiemay
09-04-2009, 08:56
Fudugazi!

The strength of your conviction is palpable. I admire that.

I can't stop smiling at the thought of you biting someone's head off in the course of an argument about prayers versus religion!!

LOL

Thank you for your post, Great stuff.

Maggie :)

Minderwiz
09-04-2009, 21:37
I agree with Fudugazi's views.

I'd add that there has been tensions between Astrology and organised religion since well before Christian times, not only because of the criticism that Astrology sees things in terms of predestination (which it doesn't) but also because there's clearly a potential circumvention of any priesthood that believes it has the monopoly of communicating God's will to humanity.

If you want to learn more read Nick Campion's Dawn of Astrology, which is an excellent account of the development of Astrology and it's conflicts with organisaed religion in the ancient world. He has a second volume due out in June.

This tension between 'church' and Astrology has not gone away since. Remember that Lilly entitled his book 'Christian Astrology' in order to stave off the same criticisms of predestination.

Much of the problem stems from the misrepresentation of misunderstanding of Astrology. In terms of natal work, the chart only shows promise and potential. Whether that promise is realised depends on actions (and circumstances), though Astrology may well identify propitious times for action (which is not to gurantee a favourable outcome).

Maggiemay
09-04-2009, 21:42
Minderwiz,

Thank you for the book referral. I will look it up.

Maggie :)

Bernice
09-04-2009, 21:51
BigLuna said: Well, Maggie, if you've done your homework, Saturn will reward you. It's that simple. And don't go chewing your fingernails and create a self-fulfilling prophecy.

The secret is and isn't as simple as it sounds.

....and, the rewards of Saturn are usually lasting. A person can, and will, benifit by working with the planetry energies. Not as easy as it sounds, but awareness is half the battle, the other half is up to each person and their respective understandings.

Bee :)

Maggiemay
09-04-2009, 21:54
Thank you Bee!

Nothing like a bit of good news early in the morning!

Maggie :)

....and, the rewards of Saturn are usually lasting. A person can, and will, benifit by working with the planetry energies. Not as easy as it sounds, but awareness is half the battle, the other half is up to each person and their respective understandings.

Bee :)

Sophie
10-04-2009, 05:16
How do we reconcile Astrology with God?

Anyone care to share their opinions?

Maggie :)

Edited to shorten postThe trouble with your edit is that all the answers are geared towards the question you did ask - which was reconciling astrology with the power of prayer. :)

Maggiemay
10-04-2009, 10:04
The trouble with your edit is that all the answers are geared towards the question you did ask - which was reconciling astrology with the power of prayer. :)

You are right. I will correct it right now.

Maggie:)

Starshower
10-04-2009, 10:19
If by 'God' we mean the Supreme Wisdom, the Whole of Everything, the infinitely diverse yet interconnected / integrated One, within which everything "lives, & moves, & has its being" ... the Life of all life, the "I AM", the All, from which every manifest thing is 'created' ...
the Ultimate Intelligence / Knowing / Creativity It/AmSelf ...

...then how / why could (S)He / It / 'I' POSSIBLY be 'at war' with any part of It's own manifestation / creation / Being?

(Sorry about the over-use of alternatives, but it's hard, if not impossible, to express stuff like this in mere words & human concepts / constructs, which are necessarily finite when from our everyday 'little me' heads!)

Geesh, this full moon is affecting me!
In brief, my answer is NO. Lol. Blessings! :)

Oops - did I mis-read the question? Sorry.
I see nothing to reconcile.
Prayer has many, many forms, intentions, purposes, beyond mere petitions for goodies; many of them are to forgive ourselves & others as we become more spiritually aware, to re-connect & re-align ourselves with our Higher Self / Purpose / Oneness ... & also to calm & soothe our lonely, helpless, scared 'little me' individual minds when we lose that Connection Awareness & feel lost.
I believe it is possible to develop a bigger aspect of Selfhood as we grow spiritually; & astrology, science, Tarot, various meditation practices, lifestyles etc can all facilitate that growth.
Love, Starshower.

Maggiemay
10-04-2009, 10:24
LOL!!! Oh!! My God!! (no pun intended!) I am rolling on the floor laughing!
Your post is brilliant!

You know what I think? I think you said it best!!

Case officially closed!

Maggie :)

ps: I'm totally saving your post.... Oh Gosh..I'm still laughing compulsively!


If by 'God' we mean the Supreme Wisdom, the Whole of Everything, the infinitely diverse yet interconnected / integrated One, within which everything "lives, & moves, & has its being" ... the Life of all life, the "I AM", the All, from which every manifest thing is 'created' ...
the Ultimate Intelligence / Knowing / Creativity It/AmSelf ...

...then how / why could (S)He / It / 'I' POSSIBLY be 'at war' with any part of It's own manifestation / creation / Being?

(Sorry about the over-use of alternatives, but it's hard, if not impossible, to express stuff like this in mere words & human concepts / constructs, which are necessarily finite when from our everyday 'little me' heads!)

Geesh, this full moon is affecting me!
In brief, my answer is NO. Lol. Blessings! :)

Starshower
10-04-2009, 10:28
Oops - I just edited to add yet more mental meanderings!
Have I ruined it for you now, Maggie? :0

Maggiemay
10-04-2009, 10:31
Oops - I just edited to add yet more mental meanderings!
Have I ruined it for you now, Maggie? :0

No you didn't, gorgeous!

It's even more perfect now...

Maggie :)

PS: I would give an arm and a leg just to have been next to you when you first wrote your post! Priceless, I tell ya!

LOLOLOLOLOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!

Starshower
10-04-2009, 10:35
So glad & cheered up myself to have made you laugh! :)
Well, it's nearly 1am here & I must admit to a glass or two of wine. ;)
Happy Full Moon / Passover / Easter weekend / witchy stuff or just Tarot readings!
Night night. :)

Maggiemay
10-04-2009, 10:42
Sweet dreams!

Maggie :)

Sophie
10-04-2009, 17:48
If by 'God' we mean the Supreme Wisdom, the Whole of Everything, the infinitely diverse yet interconnected / integrated One, within which everything "lives, & moves, & has its being" ... the Life of all life, the "I AM", the All, from which every manifest thing is 'created' ...the Ultimate Intelligence / Knowing / Creativity It/AmSelf ...

...then how / why could (S)He / It / 'I' POSSIBLY be 'at war' with any part of It's own manifestation / creation / Being?

(Sorry about the over-use of alternatives, but it's hard, if not impossible, to express stuff like this in mere words & human concepts / constructs, which are necessarily finite when from our everyday 'little me' heads!)

Geesh, this full moon is affecting me!
In brief, my answer is NO. Lol. Blessings! :)

Oops - did I mis-read the question? Sorry.
I see nothing to reconcile.
Prayer has many, many forms, intentions, purposes, beyond mere petitions for goodies; many of them are to forgive ourselves & others as we become more spiritually aware, to re-connect & re-align ourselves with our Higher Self / Purpose / Oneness ... & also to calm & soothe our lonely, helpless, scared 'little me' individual minds when we lose that Connection Awareness & feel lost.
I believe it is possible to develop a bigger aspect of Selfhood as we grow spiritually; & astrology, science, Tarot, various meditation practices, lifestyles etc can all facilitate that growth.
Love, Starshower.
:thumbsup: - if that's what you can do when under the influence of a difficult full moon - I'd love to see what you can do when the moon is behaving HerHimself :D

(note: the moon, of course, being an aspect of the manifested creation, and variously seen by humans as female or male. The Egyptians did it best, having both moon gods and goddesses - while knowing all the time that the god/desses were themselves manifest, though invisible, energies, creations of the Supreme Wisdom, the Whole of Everything, the infinitely diverse yet interconnected / integrated One, within which everything "lives, & moves, & has its being" ... the Life of all life, the "I AM", the All, from which every manifest thing is 'created' ...the Ultimate Intelligence / Knowing / Creativity It/AmSelf ...)

Of course, God/dess cannot be at war against Her/Him/It/ThemSelf :D - that's something that can only happen in a world of duality - and since the divine is beyond duality...

I see prayer as an attempt to overcome the chasm between Duality and Unity - the leap of the Fool into thin air, back to the Original Impulse. In that way, there can be no conflict with astrology (or anything else that derives from the Original Impulse, which is All there is). The only conflict that exists is within people's minds.