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Sophie
22-04-2009, 04:45
Is a planet combust or under the beams if it is within 8 or 17 respectively of the sun, but within a different sign or different sign and house than the sun's? I'm assuming it is, but not sure. Is there any difference?

Maggiemay
22-04-2009, 05:06
I've heard a lot of conflicting opinions about that.

From what I understand, it very much depends on what planet is involved.

So, for example : If we are talking about the sun and jupiter, the answer would be 'no' : because Jupiter is such a large planet that it could never be considered combust. But if we are talking about mercury then I think it would apply but within an orb of maximum 10 degrees.

I'm curious to hear what others will reply to your question.

Regards,

Maggie :)

Sophie
22-04-2009, 06:41
I was thinking of the moon, but I'm interested in all the others :)

firecatpickles
22-04-2009, 09:22
Is a planet combust or under the beams if it is within 8 or 17 respectively of the sun, but within a different sign or different sign and house than the sun's? I'm assuming it is, but not sure. Is there any difference?

My A to Z Delineator, by George Llewellyn, says that planets are combust when they come into the orb of influence of a particular planet:

"The Moon's orb is 8 degrees when approaching a major aspect, and 12 degrees when leaving it...

"The Sun's orb is 12 degrees when applying (forming) to a major aspect, and 17 degrees when leaving it (separating)...

"The orb of Jupiter is said to be 10 degrees; the orb of the influence of Mercury, Venus, Mars, Saturn, Uranus, Neptune is 8 degrees..."

willowfox
22-04-2009, 16:09
Signs and house are not taken into account, so 8 degrees is 8 degrees where ever the two planets happen to be. It is a conjunction between Sun and another planet, applying and separating. But having said that, this combust aspect is only relevant if the planet in conjunction is a significator otherwise it is of no concern.

Under the sunbeams is really kind of weak and of not really of any importance.

Sophie
22-04-2009, 20:30
Thanks, I thought that might be the case.

In the case I am thinking of (it's an election chart), the moon is a significator, so it is relevant. I'm not sure under the beams wouldn't have some effect in a sun/moon conjunctions - both planets have large orbs.

Presumably it's also important in a natal chart, since it affects the strength of that particular planet.

KK - combust is only in relation to a conjunction with the sun (the sun being so hot, and not a planet). Within 17' of the sun, the planet in question is cazimi, which is actually a good thing - the sun lends it extra strength.

firecatpickles
22-04-2009, 20:58
KK - combust is only in relation to a conjunction with the sun (the sun being so hot, and not a planet). Within 17' of the sun, the planet in question is cazimi, which is actually a good thing - the sun lends it extra strength.

But isn't that what you were asking?

Sophie
22-04-2009, 21:09
Yes - I meant in relation to your reply, which mentioned planets in general.

That said - it's very useful information for other applications! I had no idea the orbs of planets were smaller when approaching an aspect, and larger when departing. Seems strange to me, but perhaps the orb of a planet is influenced by the contact with another - which would make sense.

firecatpickles
22-04-2009, 21:12
Yes - I meant in relation to your reply, which mentioned planets in general.

That said - it's very useful information for other applications! I had no idea the orbs of planets were smaller when approaching an aspect, and larger when departing. Seems strange to me, but perhaps the orb of a planet is influenced by the contact with another - which would make sense.

Oh. I put that in there because someone mentioned it might be different according to each planet :)

I have got to start quoting more!

And, one more thing, I was thinking of combust/conjuct as one in the same, though obviously a combust is a conjunction with the Sun.

Minderwiz
22-04-2009, 23:50
William Lilly defines combustion as:

'A planet...in the SAME sign where the sun is in, he is not distant from the sun eight degrees and 30 minutes, either before or after the sun, as Jupiter in the tenth degree of Aries and the Sun in the eighteenth degree Aries, here Juptier is combust...'

Lilly goes on to say that the debility is stronger as the combustion closes and weaker as it separates. He also note that some other Astrologers of his day, use the moeity of the PLANET rather than the Sun, which would mean that Jupiter would only be combust within 4 and a half degrees of the Sun.

Lilly lists 'under the beams' as an elongation of 17 degrees, either before or after. Interestingly he doesn't require the same sign for this condition.

Cazimi, which is an accidental dignity, occurs when the planet is within 17 minutes. Although Lilly doesn't state it, I think it is clear that this also required the planet to be in the same sign as the Sun..

Now I take Lilly as knowing far more about the issue than any modern author because he used these conditions on a day to day basis. He is also one of the greatest Astrologers.

Maggiemay
23-04-2009, 01:32
Cazimi, which is an accidental dignity, occurs when the planet is within 17 minutes. Although Lilly doesn't state it, I think it is clear that this also required the planet to be in the same sign as the Sun.

Could anyone tell me : How I would go about calculating the 17 arc minutes? I'm guessing I'd have look at the longitude of the sun and whatever planet is involved, right? Or do I have to look at the declineation?

So for example, let's take someone with the sun at longitude : 6'58'41 Taurus and say... jupiter at 7'29'15 in taurus. Do I divide 6'58 by 60? That would give me approximately 0.10 arc minute. Then I would multiply 0,10 with 17 and get 1,86 which I would add to the 6'58 degree of the sun, which would give me 8'44. So, that would mean that the cazimi aspect would be between 6'58 and 8'44.

Does that sound about right?

Thanks,

Maggie :)

Sophie
23-04-2009, 01:48
I just look to see if there's 17' between the sun and the planet - I don't calculate anything at all.

If the sun is at 615' Taurus, and the Moon at 6 01' of Taurus - I see that as 14' between them, which makes the Moon cazimi.



Thanks Minderwiz - I somehow missed the same sign distinction in my Lilly :rolleyes:

Maggiemay
23-04-2009, 05:44
I just look to see if there's 17' between the sun and the planet - I don't calculate anything at all.

If the sun is at 615' Taurus, and the Moon at 6 01' of Taurus - I see that as 14' between them, which makes the Moon cazimi.


Oh God! And there I was getting the calculator out and scratching my head....LOL

Thanks Fudugazi!

Maggie :)