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Maggiemay
23-04-2009, 00:10
I read somewhere that special attention has to be given, when interpreting the meaning of the planets whether they rise before or after the sun.

I think I read that from a book by Hades. He also mentions that special interpretations have to be given depending on how each planet is 'sandwiched'

So for example, Let's say the moon is 'sandwiched' between Neptune and Mars, then it will have a different meaning than say, the moon being caught up between venus and the sun.

I guess, I'm asking two questions on this post! (hope it's allowed!)

Could anyone clue me in on that, please?

Thanks,

Maggie :)

willowfox
23-04-2009, 02:43
Nope! Back to the drawing board.

Minderwiz
23-04-2009, 03:40
Classical Greek Astrology does indeed pay attention to the position of the planets relative to the Sun and this found it's way into Arab and Medieval Astrology.

The terms used are 'Occidental' (West) and Oriental (East) of the Sun. This is mostly known in the case of Mercury and Venus, which can each play the role of Evening and Morning Star.

'To quote Lilly, To be occidental of the Sun is to be above the horizon or to set after the Sun is down. For Mercury and Venus that is to be in greater degrees of the Sign the Sun is in, or in the following sign. The Moon is occidental of the Sun from the time of her conjunction (New Moon) to the time of her opposition (Full Moon).

So Occidental planet set (and rise) after the Sun. Oriental planets rise (and set) before the Sun.

Mars, Jupiter and Saturn (and if you use them Uranus, Neptune and Pluto) are occidental from the time of their opposition to the time of their conjunction with the Sun. From the conjunction to the opposition they are oriental of the Sun.

On your second point the correct term is 'besieged' and applies when a nice planet like Venus is surrounded by malefic planets, such as Saturn and Mars (and if you use them ALL the outers are malefic).

BigLuna
23-04-2009, 04:38
[QUOTE=Maggiemay]
So for example, Let's say the moon is 'sandwiched' between Neptune and Mars, then it will have a different meaning than say, the moon being caught up between venus and the sun.
QUOTE]

I have a book by John Sandbach and Ronn Ballard, "Planetary Containments," which answers your question with a resounding YES! The authors do not concern themselves with the distance between the planets, only their adjacency. (This is the only material I've come across addressing this. They attribute the use of containments to East Indian Astrologers.)

The theory is that planets will behave differently depending on the planets that are on either side of them. They "filter" the middle planet, so to speak. The planets should be looked at from a counterclockwise order.

Here's a quote from the book re: Neptune-Moon-Mars.

"These people's emotions are visionary and idealistic. They may revel in fantasy and long for the perfection that exists beyond the earthly realm. They must not allow all of this to make them passive, because they need to project these impulses outward in a dynamic, constructive manner. They have an emotional need to be forceful where ideals are concerned, for it is through this that they will realize the true nature of their longings.
Positive: Exalted and imaginative emotions become a basis for effective andconstructive action.
Negative: Confusing and disorienting emotions lead to frustration and destructiveness."

See how it compares to Mars-Moon-Neptune:

"The feeling nature is rash and assertive. Emotionally these individuals desire to act out feelings in a dynamic manner. Here excitation can lead to emotional confusion and disorientation. Expressions of aggressiveness needs to be positively and subtly channeled into these people's spiritual ideals. It is through seeing themselves as the warrior fighting for a high-minded cause that they can experience true emotional fulfillment.
Positive: Passionate emotions are projected with subtlety and delicacy.
Negative" Destructive emotions cause confusion and disorientation."

In all my wanderings through bookstores, I have come into contact with this book once, so I scooped it up. I have not spent a whole lot of time with it, but find the idea very intriquing.

The last chapter of the book is a reprint of the "Moon's Containment" from "Evolutionary Astrology: The Journey of the Soul Through the Horoscope" by Raymond Merriman.

I've also read somewhere--not sure where--that each planet has an evolutionary path, or path of response, as it contacts each planet successively through the chart.

This is very different from Occidental and Oriental, which are great little tidbits of information to look at in a chart.

Maggiemay
23-04-2009, 04:39
The terms used are 'Occidental' (West) and Oriental (East) of the Sun. This is mostly known in the case of Mercury and Venus, which can each play the role of Evening and Morning Star.

How does this affect our understanding of Venus & Mercury in a given chart? ( considering that it does)


On your second point the correct term is 'besieged' and applies when a nice planet like Venus is surrounded by malefic planets, such as Saturn and Mars (and if you use them ALL the outers are malefic).
Did not know that!

Thanks

Nope! Back to the drawing board.

LOL! I guess you tried!!!

Thanks.

Maggie :)

Marcia959
23-04-2009, 04:57
FYI I just found a copy of Planetary Containments out on Alibris in case it is not available other places.

Maggiemay
23-04-2009, 05:02
I have a book by John Sandbach and Ronn Ballard, "Planetary Containments," which answers your question with a resounding YES! The authors do not concern themselves with the distance between the planets, only their adjacency. (This is the only material I've come across addressing this. They attribute the use of containments to East Indian Astrologers.)

Wow! That is really fascinating. I love the concept.

The theory is that planets will behave differently depending on the planets that are on either side of them. They "filter" the middle planet, so to speak. The planets should be looked at from a counterclockwise order.

Counterclockwise you say... I wonder why. Do you know?



In all my wanderings through bookstores,(...)
LOL... I do that too! I know all the second hand book stores in town!


I've also read somewhere--not sure where--that each planet has an evolutionary path, or path of response, as it contacts each planet successively through the chart.

I'm going to do some research on that...

Thanks for book referrals BigLuna and thanks for your post. Very very enlightening! ( as usual)

Bestest regards,

Maggie :)

Maggiemay
23-04-2009, 05:03
FYI I just found a copy of Planetary Containments out on Alibris in case it is not available other places.

Thank you SO much Marcia959! I'll go check it out now. ( I'll check amazon too while I'm at it!!! )

Maggie :)

Minderwiz
23-04-2009, 06:42
First, Besiegement - This is mainly used in horary and is only really important there when the besieged planet is a significator in the question. The obvious analogy is a nice person who finds themselves between a couple of baddies. Not a good situation to be in and limits the freedom of action.

The planetary containment idea is a modern development of this. allowing good containments as well as ominous ones. In the tradition, the three planets would be in the same sign and fairly close together. A problem using the outer planets is that this is an extremely infrequent occurrence for two of them to be in the same sign, given their long periodicity. So the chance of the chart ruler being besieged by Neptune and Pluto is now a problem only for the extremely old. The obvious action being to dial 999 (or 911) and ask for a psychiatrist.

Occidental and Oriental are related to the retrograde cycle. A good book looking at this in modern terms is Erin Sullivan's Retrograde Planets.

Mercury is Sanguine (Hot and Moist) when oriental but Melancholic (Cold and Dry) when occidental. That is Mercury is lighter, more active and optimistic when it is rises before the Sun (It is the Morning Star) but more contemplative, analytical and studious if it is Evening Star.

Venus is also Sanguine when oriental but Phlegmatic (Cold and Moist) when occidental. Venus is more reserved, shy and slow moving (in actions rather than in orbit). However a more considered approach to life may be seen as good and slow and steady is often the best course.

Only Mercury and Venus (the inferior planets) change humour, the other three traditional planets do not. It could well be argued that Venus and especially Mercury are too quick to act by nature, so anything that makes their action more considered is good.

Another traditional view sees the occidental inferior planet as stronger, than it's oriental manifestation. When an inferior planet is visible in the morning it is slowing down and will soon turn retrograde. Slow in motion is seen as 'bad' Astrologically. When it is seen in the Evening, it's speeding up and will soon catch up the Sun and overtake it. Fast in motion is seen as 'good' This latter point is linked to the ORBIT and appears a little confusing because of a seeming contradiction between being SLOW of motion but QUICK to act (it's better to see the slow orbitall motion being equivalent of leading to hasty and poorly considered action)

For the Superior planets (and possibly the outers) being Oriental is best because their Astrological action needs speeding up, as their orbits are slow in comparison to the inferior planets. So Oriental Saturn is more likely to find expression in your life, than Occidental Saturn, all other things being equal.

Remember that Occidental and Oriental are geocentric concepts. It's perceived orbital speed that counts, not the actual heliocentric orbital speed.

Maggiemay
23-04-2009, 06:52
LOL!

Minderwiz! You never cease to amaze me!

Now, give me a few hours to sink my teeth into your last post!

Oh God...lol

Thanks SO MUCH.

Maggie :)

BigLuna
23-04-2009, 08:09
Minderwiz,

Isn't the oriental planet considered an indicator of occupation, or at least an appealling vocation? It's a sort of opening act for the show that is our sun?

Do you know the premise of that theory?

BigLuna
23-04-2009, 08:16
Counterclockwise you say... I wonder why. Do you know?

The authors attribute it to movement and say that science shows us that in order to have movement, an object has to have something to push against.

In the Neptune-Moon-Mars example, the Moon would be pushing off of Neptune and into Mars. In any three planets next to each other, the middle planet would push off of the planet directly behind it (counterclockwise) and into the planet that rises before it does (clockwise).

Marcia959
23-04-2009, 08:48
Minderwiz,

Isn't the oriental planet considered an indicator of occupation, or at least an appealling vocation? It's a sort of opening act for the show that is our sun?

Do you know the premise of that theory?

Hi, BL, with my own real life example just to help me understand your question. So since my natal Venus is the next planet to rise just after my natal Sun, is in Taurus, and also in my 3rd house, that COULD account for my recurring occupational roles of being a "translator" of sorts (geek-English, English-geek) in the financial services industry? Is than an example of what you're saying? Oh, and I add a bit of an artistic bent to it all?

BigLuna
23-04-2009, 09:16
Hi, BL, with my own real life example just to help me understand your question. So since my natal Venus is the next planet to rise just after my natal Sun, is in Taurus, and also in my 3rd house, that COULD account for my recurring occupational roles of being a "translator" of sorts (geek-English, English-geek) in the financial services industry? Is than an example of what you're saying? Oh, and I add a bit of an artistic bent to it all?

Hi, Marcia.

The oriental planet will rise *before* the sun. Mercury and Venus are always very close to the sun, and many astrologers discount them as oriental.

What planet rose before the sun in your chart?

Translator falls into the 3rd house/Mercury/language category. Venus does relate to Taurus and financial services, though, as well as artistry.

Marcia959
23-04-2009, 09:53
Mercury is my first rising planet in Pisces right before Sun in Aries (Pisces Ascendant). I've always interpreted it as "Oh, brother can SHE talk, but what the heck did she say???" ;)

BigLuna
23-04-2009, 09:58
Marcia,

What planet rises before Mercury in your chart?

Marcia959
23-04-2009, 10:03
Mars in Sagittarius.

And yes when I get annoyed, I verbalize. =) I remember one time someone saying that they were so mad that they might say something they don't mean. I laughed and said, when I get that mad I'm afraid I'll say something I DO mean.

BigLuna
23-04-2009, 10:14
Both can be pretty awful sometimes, huh? I've been the giver and receiver of both! Niether one is very pretty.

Mars is your oriental planet.

Maggiemay
23-04-2009, 22:06
Minderwiz,

Isn't the oriental planet considered an indicator of occupation, or at least an appealling vocation? It's a sort of opening act for the show that is our sun?

Do you know the premise of that theory?

I'm curious about that! My Moon is my oriental planet and I yearn to work on behalf of children.

Wondering if it has anything to do with that! lol

Maggie :)

Minderwiz
24-04-2009, 02:55
I suspect that either this is a fairly new addition or it's a distorted use of the Greek idea of planets as 'attendants' or 'spear bearers' of the Sun and Moon. The Greeks saw the Sun and Moon are seen as royalty and it looks bad to have royalty wandering around without their attendants.

The Sun is seen as being better suited to oriental attendants, and the Moon with occidental attendants. Now it's not clear how close the 'attendants' have to be, indeed it appears it could be as much as three or more signs but they do have to have something in common with their particular royal. That is the Sun should have diurnal planets in attendance and the Moon should have nocturnal attendants. The 'attendants' announce the coming of their luminary.

Taking the Sun and oriental planets, one might argue that the planets rising before the Sun presage the life (Sun) of the native and their condition could be taken as a symbol of their future achievements.

Just a general comment to end with. Although Venus and Mercury are never more than 48 degrees and 28 degrees away from the Sun, respectively, Mars and outwards can be anywhere else in the chart. Thus Mars oriental could rise for example, when the Sun is in the third House.

BigLuna
24-04-2009, 04:44
The Greeks saw the Sun and Moon as royalty and it looks bad to have royalty wandering around without their attendants.

That does look bad, and from personal experience, I don't care for it! :)

Sun is seen as being better suited to oriental attendants, and the Moon with occidental attendants.

One more question: What if the same planet is oriental the sun and occidental the moon? That would make it the only planet between the sun and moon. How would you work with that?

Minderwiz
24-04-2009, 06:58
Good question! Don't have any ancient Greeks around to ask LOL but I'd guess that it depends on:

The nature of the planet. If it's diurnal then it's an attendant to the Sun because the Moon is nocturnal. Obviously if it's a nocturnal planet, then we would take it as attendant to the Moon, providing

It is not so far removed from either that we couldn't really claim it was attendant to one or the other. Lee Lehman in her book 'Classical Astrology for Modern Living' says that a reasonable allowance would be within 48 degrees, that being the maximum elongation of Venus from the Sun.

Lee Lehman clearly is not an ancient Greek, but she is a recognised authority. So I'd go along with her till there's clear evidence that most Greek Astrologers used a much wider spread.


For information purposes:

Diurnal planets

Sun
Jupiter
Saturn

Nocturnal Planets

Moon,
Venus
Mars

Mercury is mixed and it's sect depends on the chart.

Maggiemay
24-04-2009, 07:14
deleted.

BigLuna
24-04-2009, 07:30
Minderwiz,

You completely dismiss the outer planets as oriental/occidental?

Minderwiz
24-04-2009, 18:59
No, the outers DO have orientality/occidentality

But I see two problems, as far as they are concerned

Firstly Superior planets are oriental for half their perceived orbit of the Sun, from conjunction to opposition, according to Lilly. Now that would be a peiod of arround 86 years for Neptune and over 120 for Pluto. So can we attribute any real significance to such permanency.

Incidentally, the degree of separation for the superiod planets is measured diurnally, that is AGAINST the nautral sequence of signs. For example, Pluto is currently at 3 degrees Capricorn, and the Sun is 4 degrees Taurus. Diurnally that's a separation of 59 degrees, so Pluto is oriental.

The second problem is that as the outers were unknown to the Greeks, they have no classification in terms of Hot or Cold, Dry or Moist - Saturn is intrinsically Melancholic (Cold and Dry) but what is Pluto? Similarly do we count the outers as diurnal or nocturnal, and does such a classification make sense for a planet you can't see (ditto oriental or occidental)

Traditional Astrology is not something that is 'set in stone'. Astrology changed and developed over the period of 2,500 years or so, up to the twentieth century. The Greekks placed a lot of emphasis on whether the chart was night or day and how the planets fitted into charts, according to their intrinsic sect, the sect of the chart, their position relative to the horizon and their sign placement in the chart. It's clear that by the seventeenth century little attention, if any is placed on these factors.

Maggiemay
25-04-2009, 00:08
Minderwiz,

About the outer planets in general :

I do understand ( from reading previous previous threads) that you, personally, really don't 'work' with them.

I'm very surprised that the '7' planets could well do the job of explaining whatever needs explaining in a chart without having to refer to the 'outers'.

So technically, if I understand it right, you would not even consider an aspect between Moon and Pluto...unless they were conjunct. Right?

How about, for example, someone that was born with :

Moon+Jupiter in Pisces
Sun+Mercury+Mars in Virgo
Neptune in Sagittarius SQUARING all of the above.

Would one be able to 'explain' the chart accurately without taking Neptune's aspects into account?

If that is true, then... I need to revise everything I 'know' ( lack of better word!) about astrology.

Thanks,

Maggie :)

Minderwiz
25-04-2009, 02:26
Maggie,

Let me ask you somes questions

Firstly, How come Astrologers manage for 2,500 years explaining things perfectly adequately without the outers, if they're so important?

Secondly how come virtually ALL vedic Astrologers just don't bother with them, if they're so important?

Thirdly, what has come into existence co-incideent with their discoveries, which either did not exist, or could not be interpreted before?

Maggiemay
25-04-2009, 03:01
Maggie,

Let me ask you somes questions

Yikes! You've decided to turn the tables on me!!? LOL


Firstly, How come Astrologers manage for 2,500 years explaining things perfectly adequately without the outers, if they're so important?
Do you believe they have?

Secondly how come virtually ALL vedic Astrologers just don't bother with them, if they're so important?

Vedic astrologers are an entirely different breed...lol

Thirdly, what has come into existence co-incideent with their discoveries, which either did not exist, or could not be interpreted before?

Pluto - the 30's - Rise of Adolph Hitler.

You are amazing Minderwiz. I'm goofing around with you but I see your point and I stand corrected. And besides, it is no secret on this forum that I consider every post of yours as being pretty much : the 'word of G-d' ! LOL

Your friend,

Maggie :)

Maggiemay
25-04-2009, 05:39
Firstly, How come Astrologers manage for 2,500 years explaining things perfectly adequately without the outers, if they're so important?



Actually, this is bugging me.

I can't say that I could explain certain things in my chart without Pluto's input.

Anyhow, I capitulate....( if only for now).lol.

Maggie :)

Minderwiz
25-04-2009, 05:50
Incidentally Maggie, did you realise that Pluto is a 'vanishing' planet?

When it was discovered the estimate of it's mass was the same as Earth (estimated 1931)

By 1948 the estimate had been reduced to a Mass one tenth the size of Earth. Just about the time Psychologists began their Pluto worship.

In 1976 the estimate was reduced to 1 percent of that of Earth and in 1978 the estimate was reduced still further to 2 one thousandths of that of Earth.

There was of course a recognition of what became known as the Kuiper belt. A number of Astrologers have argued that 'Pluto' now is really a surrogate for the Kuiper belt and that that has Astrological significance even if Pluto doesn't. It's not even the largest Kuiper belt object, at the moment that distinction is held by Eris (don't rush out for an ephemeris). So what really is Pluto's effect? I might of course say it's all in the mind LOL

Now Neptune and Uranus are genuine planets, and are worthy of some real consideration by Astrologers

Maggiemay
25-04-2009, 05:54
So what really is Pluto's effect? I might of course say it's all in the mind LOL

I am speechless. And shocked. I can't believe it.
I have been giving 'pluto' so much significance...


Now Neptune and Uranus are genuine planets, and are worthy of some real consideration by Astrologers

'We'll always have Neptune...' ( Casablanca- lol)

Maggie :(

Maggiemay
25-04-2009, 06:24
Minderwiz,

You've got me reading about 'Kuiper belt' now... LOL.

My brain.... My Brain!!!!!!!!!

Maggie :)

Minderwiz
25-04-2009, 07:54
Despite the evidence on Pluto, there's no way that I, or anyone else is going to wean the psychologists off their addiction. And I suppose from their mindset, Pluto does have meaning.

My issue is that there is no rational reason why Pluto should be considered important. but then psychologists and psychaitrists are often concerned with the irrational LOL,

Why do people report dreadful things from Pluto transits? I suspect that it's another psychological phemomenon, the power of suggestion. If you're told that Pluto will give you a hard time for the next six months, then anything that goes wrong has an obvious answer - IT'S PLUTO. No need to look elsewhere in the natal chart, or in return charts. So it also leads to careless Astrology. Not looking and checking all possible Astrological causes.

At the time of Pluto's discovery, Astronomers were searching for Planet X, and Pluto was discovered very near where Percival Lowell predicted Planet X would be. So it was quickly accepted as a planet. However as more was learned about it it became abundantly clear that it wasn't Planet X and did not follow the predicted orbit.

So Pluto created obfuscation and misunderstanding - sounds like Neptune doesn't it?

Maggiemay
25-04-2009, 08:00
but then psychologists and psychaitrists are often concerned with the irrational LOL,

Tell me about it : My padre es un psychologist!! lol
Didn't help me did it?????????


Why do people report dreadful things from Pluto transits? I suspect that it's another psychological phemomenon, the power of suggestion.

You just described me. Oh well... lol



So Pluto created obfuscation and misunderstanding - sounds like Neptune doesn't it?

Geez! You think ?!

Maggie:)

Marcia959
28-04-2009, 08:45
FYI I just found a copy of Planetary Containments out on Alibris in case it is not available other places.

I just got my copy of Planets in Containment by Sandbach and Ballard and find it very interesting. Thanks, BigLuna, for your recommendation!