Planets rising before or after the sun have different interpretations?

Maggiemay

I read somewhere that special attention has to be given, when interpreting the meaning of the planets whether they rise before or after the sun.

I think I read that from a book by Hades. He also mentions that special interpretations have to be given depending on how each planet is 'sandwiched'

So for example, Let's say the moon is 'sandwiched' between Neptune and Mars, then it will have a different meaning than say, the moon being caught up between venus and the sun.

I guess, I'm asking two questions on this post! (hope it's allowed!)

Could anyone clue me in on that, please?

Thanks,

Maggie :)
 

willowfox

Nope! Back to the drawing board.
 

Minderwiz

Part 1 - Definitions

Classical Greek Astrology does indeed pay attention to the position of the planets relative to the Sun and this found it's way into Arab and Medieval Astrology.

The terms used are 'Occidental' (West) and Oriental (East) of the Sun. This is mostly known in the case of Mercury and Venus, which can each play the role of Evening and Morning Star.

'To quote Lilly, To be occidental of the Sun is to be above the horizon or to set after the Sun is down. For Mercury and Venus that is to be in greater degrees of the Sign the Sun is in, or in the following sign. The Moon is occidental of the Sun from the time of her conjunction (New Moon) to the time of her opposition (Full Moon).

So Occidental planet set (and rise) after the Sun. Oriental planets rise (and set) before the Sun.

Mars, Jupiter and Saturn (and if you use them Uranus, Neptune and Pluto) are occidental from the time of their opposition to the time of their conjunction with the Sun. From the conjunction to the opposition they are oriental of the Sun.

On your second point the correct term is 'besieged' and applies when a nice planet like Venus is surrounded by malefic planets, such as Saturn and Mars (and if you use them ALL the outers are malefic).
 

BigLuna

Maggiemay said:
So for example, Let's say the moon is 'sandwiched' between Neptune and Mars, then it will have a different meaning than say, the moon being caught up between venus and the sun.
QUOTE]

I have a book by John Sandbach and Ronn Ballard, "Planetary Containments," which answers your question with a resounding YES! The authors do not concern themselves with the distance between the planets, only their adjacency. (This is the only material I've come across addressing this. They attribute the use of containments to East Indian Astrologers.)

The theory is that planets will behave differently depending on the planets that are on either side of them. They "filter" the middle planet, so to speak. The planets should be looked at from a counterclockwise order.

Here's a quote from the book re: Neptune-Moon-Mars.

"These people's emotions are visionary and idealistic. They may revel in fantasy and long for the perfection that exists beyond the earthly realm. They must not allow all of this to make them passive, because they need to project these impulses outward in a dynamic, constructive manner. They have an emotional need to be forceful where ideals are concerned, for it is through this that they will realize the true nature of their longings.
Positive: Exalted and imaginative emotions become a basis for effective andconstructive action.
Negative: Confusing and disorienting emotions lead to frustration and destructiveness."

See how it compares to Mars-Moon-Neptune:

"The feeling nature is rash and assertive. Emotionally these individuals desire to act out feelings in a dynamic manner. Here excitation can lead to emotional confusion and disorientation. Expressions of aggressiveness needs to be positively and subtly channeled into these people's spiritual ideals. It is through seeing themselves as the warrior fighting for a high-minded cause that they can experience true emotional fulfillment.
Positive: Passionate emotions are projected with subtlety and delicacy.
Negative" Destructive emotions cause confusion and disorientation."

In all my wanderings through bookstores, I have come into contact with this book once, so I scooped it up. I have not spent a whole lot of time with it, but find the idea very intriquing.

The last chapter of the book is a reprint of the "Moon's Containment" from "Evolutionary Astrology: The Journey of the Soul Through the Horoscope" by Raymond Merriman.

I've also read somewhere--not sure where--that each planet has an evolutionary path, or path of response, as it contacts each planet successively through the chart.

This is very different from Occidental and Oriental, which are great little tidbits of information to look at in a chart.
 

Maggiemay

Minderwiz said:
The terms used are 'Occidental' (West) and Oriental (East) of the Sun. This is mostly known in the case of Mercury and Venus, which can each play the role of Evening and Morning Star.

How does this affect our understanding of Venus & Mercury in a given chart? ( considering that it does)

Minderwiz said:
On your second point the correct term is 'besieged' and applies when a nice planet like Venus is surrounded by malefic planets, such as Saturn and Mars (and if you use them ALL the outers are malefic).
Did not know that!

Thanks

willowfox said:
Nope! Back to the drawing board.

LOL! I guess you tried!!!

Thanks.

Maggie :)
 

Marcia959

FYI I just found a copy of Planetary Containments out on Alibris in case it is not available other places.
 

Maggiemay

BigLuna said:
I have a book by John Sandbach and Ronn Ballard, "Planetary Containments," which answers your question with a resounding YES! The authors do not concern themselves with the distance between the planets, only their adjacency. (This is the only material I've come across addressing this. They attribute the use of containments to East Indian Astrologers.)

Wow! That is really fascinating. I love the concept.

BigLuna said:
The theory is that planets will behave differently depending on the planets that are on either side of them. They "filter" the middle planet, so to speak. The planets should be looked at from a counterclockwise order.

Counterclockwise you say... I wonder why. Do you know?


BigLuna said:
In all my wanderings through bookstores,(...)
LOL... I do that too! I know all the second hand book stores in town!


BigLuna said:
I've also read somewhere--not sure where--that each planet has an evolutionary path, or path of response, as it contacts each planet successively through the chart.

I'm going to do some research on that...

Thanks for book referrals BigLuna and thanks for your post. Very very enlightening! ( as usual)

Bestest regards,

Maggie :)
 

Maggiemay

Marcia959 said:
FYI I just found a copy of Planetary Containments out on Alibris in case it is not available other places.

Thank you SO much Marcia959! I'll go check it out now. ( I'll check amazon too while I'm at it!!! )

Maggie :)
 

Minderwiz

Part 2 - Interpretations

First, Besiegement - This is mainly used in horary and is only really important there when the besieged planet is a significator in the question. The obvious analogy is a nice person who finds themselves between a couple of baddies. Not a good situation to be in and limits the freedom of action.

The planetary containment idea is a modern development of this. allowing good containments as well as ominous ones. In the tradition, the three planets would be in the same sign and fairly close together. A problem using the outer planets is that this is an extremely infrequent occurrence for two of them to be in the same sign, given their long periodicity. So the chance of the chart ruler being besieged by Neptune and Pluto is now a problem only for the extremely old. The obvious action being to dial 999 (or 911) and ask for a psychiatrist.

Occidental and Oriental are related to the retrograde cycle. A good book looking at this in modern terms is Erin Sullivan's Retrograde Planets.

Mercury is Sanguine (Hot and Moist) when oriental but Melancholic (Cold and Dry) when occidental. That is Mercury is lighter, more active and optimistic when it is rises before the Sun (It is the Morning Star) but more contemplative, analytical and studious if it is Evening Star.

Venus is also Sanguine when oriental but Phlegmatic (Cold and Moist) when occidental. Venus is more reserved, shy and slow moving (in actions rather than in orbit). However a more considered approach to life may be seen as good and slow and steady is often the best course.

Only Mercury and Venus (the inferior planets) change humour, the other three traditional planets do not. It could well be argued that Venus and especially Mercury are too quick to act by nature, so anything that makes their action more considered is good.

Another traditional view sees the occidental inferior planet as stronger, than it's oriental manifestation. When an inferior planet is visible in the morning it is slowing down and will soon turn retrograde. Slow in motion is seen as 'bad' Astrologically. When it is seen in the Evening, it's speeding up and will soon catch up the Sun and overtake it. Fast in motion is seen as 'good' This latter point is linked to the ORBIT and appears a little confusing because of a seeming contradiction between being SLOW of motion but QUICK to act (it's better to see the slow orbitall motion being equivalent of leading to hasty and poorly considered action)

For the Superior planets (and possibly the outers) being Oriental is best because their Astrological action needs speeding up, as their orbits are slow in comparison to the inferior planets. So Oriental Saturn is more likely to find expression in your life, than Occidental Saturn, all other things being equal.

Remember that Occidental and Oriental are geocentric concepts. It's perceived orbital speed that counts, not the actual heliocentric orbital speed.
 

Maggiemay

LOL!

Minderwiz! You never cease to amaze me!

Now, give me a few hours to sink my teeth into your last post!

Oh God...lol

Thanks SO MUCH.

Maggie :)