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Maggiemay
26-04-2009, 12:54
Does astrology make a distinction between the 5th house's sexuality (fun, procreation, fun and more fun!) versus the 8th house's sex ( tantra, kamasutra, fetiches, sex issues : ie. phobias or traumas) ??

I'd love to hear your opinions on the subject,

Maggie :)

Minderwiz
26-04-2009, 19:57
Well there appears to be a division here:

Up ill the twentieth century sex was seen as a fifth house activity - it's natural purpose being the procreation of children.

Psychologists and psychiatrists who follow Freud and indeed other pioneers of modern psychology have shifted it to the eighth. This seems to be because they are 'Victorian' in their attitudes to sex (literally) and also have linked sex and abnormal behaviours and psychological disorders.

Their knowledge of Astrology tended to be superficial, because much of our knowledge of Astrological tradition had been lost. Traditionally Scorpio rules the genitals (not their use), And it therefore rules disorders of the genitals both in men and women.

so they linked sex with Scorpio and through Scorpio to the eighth house(ABC approach). Scorpio clearly also has an appeal if you take a Freudian/Victorian as it's associated with the hidden and sex for these people is something you hide.

So we have a situation where the eighth is linked with sex because Scorpio is linked to sexual diseases. That's some warping of nature.

Whether you treat fetishes or other 'non-standard' activities as sexual diseases is, I suppose an issue. It depends on the individual and the culture. Clearly many sexual practices are 'frowned on' by society so those who indulge have to keep them secret. I'd probably use the twelfth rather than the eighth for those sort of activities but again it depends on the individuals and circumstances. If someone is quite public in their expression of a fetish, then I'd treat that as fifth. They enjoy it and don't hide it.

Maggiemay
27-04-2009, 00:24
Psychologists and psychiatrists who follow Freud and indeed other pioneers of modern psychology have shifted it to the eighth.
Sometimes I wonder how on earth did psychology get so intertwined with astrology!??!

This seems to be because they are 'Victorian' in their attitudes to sex (literally) and also have linked sex and abnormal behaviours and psychological disorders.
Geez! Good thing that era is over! lol


so they linked sex with Scorpio and through Scorpio to the eighth house(ABC approach).
I plead guilty! lol

Scorpio clearly also has an appeal if you take a Freudian/Victorian as it's associated with the hidden and sex for these people is something you hide.

That is not how I understood it. I thought it was linked to the 8th house because Scorpio represents regeneration,fusion,mystical experiences (?) which is a beautiful way to look at one's sexuality.

Oh well... Once again... I was in the wrong. Back to the 5th house! lol



Whether you treat fetishes or other 'non-standard' activities as sexual diseases is, I suppose an issue. It depends on the individual and the culture. Clearly many sexual practices are 'frowned on' by society so those who indulge have to keep them secret. I'd probably use the twelfth rather than the eighth for those sort of activities but again it depends on the individuals and circumstances. If someone is quite public in their expression of a fetish, then I'd treat that as fifth. They enjoy it and don't hide it.

Interesting.


Thank you for your post Minderwiz, it's great food for thought.

Maggie :)

Sophie
27-04-2009, 00:34
I don't see the 8th house as the house of sex, but of death, trauma and loss. I see only 5th as the house of sex - fun, joy, experimentation, beauty, creativity, pregnancy, children, etc. - all the things I associate with sex. So I don't really confuse them.

I like Minderwiz's explanation as to why the 8th came to be associated with sex. I'd often wondered. It seemed perverse to do that. Victorian sexual values, ugh!

missunderling
29-04-2009, 06:37
"La petite mort, French for 'the little death', is a reference for the refractory period following sexual orgasm. . . .More widely, it can refer to the spiritual release that comes with orgasm, or a short period of melancholy or transcendence, as a result of the expenditure of the 'life force'" (from Wikipedia). That's pretty Scorpio to me.
I think it depends on the partner and the intent. Sometimes sex is fun and playful or used for procreation and sometimes its intense and feels transcendental.
I don't know about these houses. They're a little too vague yet restrictive for me to understand.

Maggiemay
29-04-2009, 07:04
"La petite mort, French for 'the little death', is a reference for the refractory period following sexual orgasm. . . .More widely, it can refer to the spiritual release that comes with orgasm, or a short period of melancholy or transcendence, as a result of the expenditure of the 'life force'" (from Wikipedia). That's pretty Scorpio to me.

That is exactly what I was referring to. To me, sex is 8th house material.

I think it depends on the partner and the intent. Sometimes sex is fun and playful or used for procreation and sometimes its intense and feels transcendental.


Agreed.

Thank you so much for your post!

Maggie :)

Edited to add : Welcome to the forum missunderling! The more the merrier!

Minderwiz
29-04-2009, 22:39
"La petite mort, French for 'the little death', is a reference for the refractory period following sexual orgasm. . . .More widely, it can refer to the spiritual release that comes with orgasm, or a short period of melancholy or transcendence, as a result of the expenditure of the 'life force'" (from Wikipedia). That's pretty Scorpio to me.
.

An interesting article, but the juxtaposition of melancholy and transcedence is rather surprising. Incidentally, whilst I have seen and heard references to 'Le petit mort' which seem to take it literally, I'm fairly sure that the original use is analogy, so we shouldn't get too hung up on 'death'

Melancholy is a one of the four humours, of classical and medieval medicine and temperatment analysis. Melancholy is defined in as a cold and dry condition, exemplifed by reflection, pessimism, analytical and in this context it's anticlimax. Now in terms of signs, melancholic signs are Earth, not Water, amd Saturn is the planet of melancholy.

Scorpio as a Water sign, is phlegmatc, that is, contemplative, reserved, shy, slow moving, resigned. As the fixed Water sign, Scorpio is static Water. Now of course, the author of the Wikipedia article, might be confusing phlegmatic and melancholic, especially as the modern view of 'transcendence' tends to link it to Pisces and Neptune. Traditionally, it's probably still Pisces, but it would be Jupiter as the ruler.

We are bacl to cultural and personal views. The connection of sex and the eighth is a twentieth century invention. which seems to have been used for the first time by Alan Leo. To the extend that you do regard sex as something that is inherently unpleasant, or shows the base side of man (and woman) is something best not talked about in decent company, then that might lead to a shift of house. I'd still take twelfth, on that view, rather than eighth but it's traditional association is fifth house. And no traditional Astrologer would link sex with Scorpio (though sexual disorders WOULD be)

Bernice
29-04-2009, 23:25
Minderwiz: We are back to cultural and personal views. The connection of sex and the eighth is a twentieth century invention. which seems to have been used for the first time by Alan Leo. To the extent that you do regard sex as something that is inherently unpleasant, or shows the base side of man (and woman) is something best not talked about in decent company, then that might lead to a shift of house. I'd still take twelfth, on that view, rather than eighth but it's traditional association is fifth house. And no traditional Astrologer would link sex with Scorpio (though sexual disorders WOULD be)

Agreed.

When all things esoteric blossomed into the 'new age' (I detest that term...) last century, a lot of previously un-esoteric people jumped onto the band-wagon - and ushered in a lot of crap.
Now no-one can or should stand in the way of evolution. But first be sure that it's a valid evolution, and not some rubbish bandied about via 'popular' commercialism.

Bee

EDIT: I think the confusion comes from equating the 8th House with Scorpio. A House is merely a convenient 'marker' for areas of our life experiences. Whereas Scorpio is an 'influence' or 'filter' through which the lights & planets express themselves (providing they are in that sign) .

Sophie
29-04-2009, 23:57
In relation to death, transcendance and the 8th house, I like Deborah Houlding's comment:

Traditional astrology relates the eighth house to crisis, hidden matters, anguish of mind, poison and deadly fears; yet psychological astrology often refers to it as a house of inner transformation and growth. It should be remembered that true transformation follows the burst of creativity that occurs after the lessons of this house have been properly digested. Only by facing our innermost fears are we able to overcome them and move on with the strength of experience and wisdom. But this house is not relevant to the period of growth, its concern is the inhibiting factors that stand in our way. It is a house of personal vulnerability, albeit perhaps a necessary vulnerability from which we may eventually gain. It is wise to avoid any financial gambles or high-risk activities during periods when this house is heavily emphasised.

In that perspective, it is not an appropriate house for "la petite mort" in general, unless you regard the moment just after climax as a crisis, a poison or a deadly fear. In someone who has morbid associations with sex due to religion or other factors, or someone who recklessly takes part in high-risk sexual activity, this might be the case.

For transcendance, including transcendance through sex (as in Tantric practices), I would choose the 9th house.

Maggiemay
30-04-2009, 01:18
Dear Minderwiz, Bernice, Fudugazi & Missunderling,

I get it now! (Finally!) You guys are AWESOME!

Great, great, amazing explanations. I'm glad I posted the question! :)

Now, I have to go around and tell my friends that everything I ever said about their 8th house is basically bogus! lol

And for the little anecdote, the ruler of my 8th house is together with the ruler of my 5th house in my natal! So, I guess, I'm still cool! LOL

Thank you so very much, I had been very confused about it until now.

Maggie :)