When is Tarot not a Tarotdeck?

I just ordered the Voyager Tarot by James Wanless because I am so fascinated by it. But a thought popped into my mind: How do you really define a tarotdeck? Whats the definition of a deck? 78 cards? 22 Major Arcana? 4 suits? 4 courts and 10 pips? Does it have to have any pictorial similarities or historcial similarities to the older originals? Do the cards have to have the same meanings as the "normal" standard cards? Do you have to be able to use the same intepretation techniques as with other decks?

As with the Voyager I can answer yes in the 4 first parts but no in the last 4 parts. So is it really a tarotdeck? Or maybe a oracle deck? I dont really care, really I dont. But it bugs me, since I need to be in control over things ^^

BB
/Anna

Hmmm...it seems like the most distinct and consistent feature of Tarot is the Major Arcana. That's what sets it apart from playing cards. So I think if the Major cards are there and representing the same archetypes, it's a Tarot. The representations will change as our world changes, and a spaceship or UFO embodies the same energy as the traditional Chariot, for example. Just my opinion.

Well, I suppose the purists would say that Marseilles style decks are the only true Tarot since I guess that's what came first. But then some might say it's the Big Three---Marseilles/Rider Waite/Thoth.

I'm not an expert, so I can't really say what it is except for myself. I love Rider Waite and the clones so for me, Tarot is a deck that sticks with Rider Waite symbolism all the way through the 22 Majors and the four suits. I like 8 for Strength and 11 for Justice. And I like Swords for Air and Wands for Fire. For me, that's Tarot, although I realize it's not the same for lots and lots of other people and I certainly respect the others beliefs.

Just reread your question which is "when is Tarot not a Tarotdeck?" That one I can't answer because it implies that you're talking about something external to a deck being Tarot, like seeing Tarot symbolism in other areas of life than just a deck. Which did you mean?

If you think it's a tarot deck, then it's a tarot deck, regardless of what anyone else thinks.

Rodney

I think a deck is a Tarot deck as long as it has 78 cards, that can be divided into two parts. Part One being 22 Major Arcana cards. Part Two being 56 Minor Arcana cards, that can be divided into 4 suits, each consisting of 4 pip cards and 10 Court cards. This is what it takes to make a Tarot deck imo.

According to that, I don't see the Minchiate as Tarot, nor the Mantegna, nor the Fifth Tarot (albeit it's called "Tarot") but as oracles.

Your mileage may vary.

Astraea Aurora

Grizabella said:

Well, I suppose the purists would say that Marseilles style decks are the only true Tarot since I guess that's what came first. But then some might say it's the Big Three---Marseilles/Rider Waite/Thoth.

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The Visconti decks predated the Marseilles decks.

They weren't consistent with modern tarot either.

Someone else who recalls better than me can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that the Cary Yale Visconti had two of each court card in each suit (or maybe it was just the Pages and the Knights, a male and female of each).

The Major arcana at that time were not in any consistent order from deck to deck or region to region....and there is some doubt whether some cards that we've reconstructed for the reprinted Visconti decks ever existed at all in the originals.

So there's a lot of variation even in the historical beginnings.

As for modern esoteric tarot....I don't really have an answer....but then, I love the variation.

Tarot doesn't have to have set meanings, it's an expression of an artistic vision and there's always an underlying ideology, whether or not the artist chooses to explain it in detail or let us construct our own while keeping theirs as understated as possible.

Take the Thoth, carefully trim off the boarders and the titles. Is it still Tarot? IMO, yes.

Take the WCS deck, carefully trim off the boarders and the titles. Is it still Tarot? IMO, yes.

Take any TdM, carefully trim off the boarders and the titles. Is it still Tarot? IMO, yes.

Take the Voyager, carefully trim off the boarders and the titles. Is it still Tarot? IMO...it loses it's Tarotness and becomes an oracle.

Just my opinion, your mileage may vary.

FWIW, here in Europe any fortune telling type of deck is often called a 'Tarot'. I didn't know this until I moved here from America.


Freddie

Freddie said:

FWIW, here in Europe any fortune telling type of deck is often called a 'Tarot'. I didn't know this until I moved here from America.


Freddie

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That's true That was the question i asked in one of my first posts here at the Forum!
But, than i guess, it also depends on where exactly in Europe - where i am it is like that, because, as Tarot is not wide spread and oracles are -many people somehow consider it all "cards" = "Tarot"...
I think its not the case in Italy, where they have a great Tarot tradition - at least i've never heard anyone there confusing the two.

Lots more discussion on this thread...

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=109453