View Full Version : Studying the Marseille deck as essential to studying Tarot!
Those of you who know me (either on or off line) know both that, on the one hand, I will recommend to a learner that they choose any Tarot deck which they feel particularly drawn to, and that, on the other, I favour the Marseilles (in its own peculiar varieties).
Reflecting on the Marseille's importance was what partly led me to begin the The Time-Capsuled Tarot Deck (http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11888) thread. The Marseilles, however, is important more than for its historical value.
In a very early thread discussing the Marseilles (now in the History section, titled the Magician (http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1145)), I speak of the Marseilles as the Ür-Tarot - this I still think is an apt term, and, if correct, makes this deck all the more important to work with for all except, just maybe, new beginners in their first one hour ;).
The 'how' is not too important here - I'm more concerned with the 'why', so let me address this quickly and essentially. Whether one considers any other Tarot as fundamentally important, its roots will be in the Marseilles;
Some of the initial difficulties which some face when meeting the sparse nature of the Marseilles have, I would say, a free-ing capacity - with both its relatively sparse imagery, and its element-free pip and court depictions;
mastery of this deck allows for greater looseness of the imaginative, inspirational and intuitional faculties... (maybe I'm being too controversial here - but I must admit that I truly do hold to this).I often try to both be reasonably open to other decks (which I also, incidentally, highly value), other people's opinion (which I also highly value), and not try to really 'push' for the Marseilles - even if I often mention it as a possibility.
Here, I am being more forthcoming, and am controversially (without much doubt) stating that, irrespective of any other decks also studied and worked with, the Marseilles needs to also be included...
... this wasn't too strongly put, was it?!?
lol, no it wasnt :-)
anyway, you "converted" me to marseille decks and i am still grateful for that for many reasons .
(even though my #1 reading deck prolly will always be the thoth)
~kaz
i know what you are saying :O)
1. i just can't believe no one redoes the deck with updated artwork,, especally the pips ewww
2. i envied diana last year when she took a marsieles tarot course, and came back with lots of knowledge that made me want to at least know about more about the marsieles 22 arcana.
3. there is no good english books to explain the marsiles,
actually with jmd number three, that is true of mastering any one deck as it becomes your basis for understanding other decks.
yet i understand what he is saying as the marsieles came first therefore it is truer to the essence of what they were trying to teach in the tarot.
i offer this point of view,
it can be likened to biblical terms,,
the genesis can be likened to the marsieles,
the new testment to to the golden dawn and rider waite.
and a differnt version of the new testment to the toth,
and new gospels based on these systems in today tarot (wow almost a hundred years ago since the rider was first released)
there has yet to be a whole new tarot which redefines the genere is it because it has all been done since the rider system ?
there will never again be a new king of rock and roll yet there will always be that new hot star who has something to contribute.
i guess you can say wrestling in the 70s and sometimes 80s were the purer closer to the essence of pro wrestling.
these day the old purists say that isn't wrestling, yet sometimes we look back at the old wrestling with matches between real wrestlers such as chris benoit and kurt angle.
it is essential, yet for us north americians i feel the rider is more essential as it has more influence on us, then the marsieles at this stage.
in order to broaden the horizons.
1. the marsieles need to be redone keeping to the old symbolism, yet updated so the new people can hear it. (this has been done in old music, ((elvis presley version of aura lee becoming love me tender, and simon and garfunkel doing scarbrough fair))
2. a new indepth book to be written so we will know all the symbolism and systems of the marsielles.
3. although in its updation, it must remain true to the original thus no illustrated pip cards, however the pips cards can be done beutifully ?
to use the bible analogie again.
the rider itself can be called the bible, for us north americans,
and the marsielles can be called the lost gospel, which has to reinterprated for today knowledge enthusiates, much like the lost scrolls and stuff taken out of the bible, due to the interests of the church.
an example of that is shown in stigmata the movie.
Moongold
03-03-2003, 13:25
JMD,
Your post is fascinating and wonderfully polemic.
I came to Tarot via the Witches Tarot but very quickly obtained a Rider Waite. It was completely new and I've reached a point now where I think I have enough experience and knowledge to read with something like the Marseilles. I have just started reading with the Old English which could be said to be one of the modern decks closest in principle to the Marseilles. Great Majors, virtually no illustralions on the pips. I know that the next deck I buy will be a Marseilles. I tried to buy one in Melbourne last week and couldn't, by the way. Not even at the TS Bookshop.
I appreciate that it is really important for people to understand the history of Tarot. I'm just beginning to look at these threads on Aeclectic now, after eight months although I have read various articles on Tarot history.
The original Marseilles illustrations, or variations thereof, were popular art were they not? They were relevant for the times. The images just may not be immediately relevant in very different cultures a few hundred years later.
I think I might have just said what Holmes has already said, and my apologies for covering the same ground.
JMD, I'd like to throw you a gentle challenge/request. You are obviously a witty, delightful, knowledgeable and rigorous Tarot scholar. You are an authority on Aeclectic. I also see you to be a friendly, sensitive, aware man.
I've never seen you do a reading and I would love to! I'm sure the immense knowledge you have of Tarot would enrich a reading.
Now, I totally respect your right to decline for a whole range of reasons. I have no desire to be presumptuous and recognise that you might do lots of readings elsewhere. I know there are many other people on Aeclectic who have a scholarly interest in the Tarot and also don't do readings in public.
JMD you'd be aware of the use of hypotheticals, role plays et cetera as learning tools. I'd love to see something similar - perhaps a series of demonstration readings between people like you, Umbrae, Meewah, Marion, Diana, Holmes. Or I would love to see you do something like Umbrae is doing now.
Please accept my suggestion as being gentle and genuine. I would unreservedly respect your absolute right to decline.
What do you say?
Moongold
Macavity
03-03-2003, 13:28
All of the above? :) And...
I still believe "they" could produce a LWB that includes simple meanings for minors. (Some might, but Camoin doesn't) They do so for the majors, after all! I know the opinion of some on such things... but it can be frustrating }) I believe Papus produced something like that for one of the (Italian) Marseille-a-likes? (That assumption based on memory of Revak's comparative tarot site)
And... A popos that (pretentious moi?) look at:
http://www.playingcardsales.co.uk/cards/moreimages/11452_6_taromantic.jpg
But I notice some OTHER decks are also distributed with (broadly) the above "method of divination" e.g. the LWB with my Grimaud (CDF) "Grand Etteilla". (The latter is CONSIDERABLY extended compared to the picture!) Is this due to Alliette? Is this some uhm... "Traditional French" style? The concept of "nearby cards" etc. seems to be a common denominator here. Such methods look rather fascinating and indeed rather... comprehensive - If nothing else? :D
Macavity
Why is the Marseilles so important to me? Perhaps that's where I should start here.
In one of my posts a long long time ago, when we were discussing one of the older historical decks (Qolus was still with us then), I remember saying something like "we can't understand where we are today if we don't know where we come from". That is why history is so important to understand and to learn. That is why people are so fascinated with their family history, or those who believe in reincarnation are so interested in their past lives. It provides us with an unbreakable thread to our origins.
This is what the Marseilles Tarot is to me. It contains what I believe to be an inkling of the original essence of Tarot. It holds the golden key. Of course, all the modern Tarot decks have led us on new paths and some of these paths are exciting and wondrous. (Some are sad illusions though.) But one can get lost on the way and even land up on paths that have no longer anything to do with Tarot. With the Marseilles Tarot by our side, we will always have a guide to get us back on the right road, the road that will lead to enlightenment. It is the original reference.
How can I not stand in awe and in humility to the message that has come down to us over centuries, hardly unchanged. There is an old library in a castle in Switzerland where all the precious books are behind glass doors, and you need special permission to read them. This is how I feel when I hold a Marseilles deck in my hands - it is a precious and sacred book of pictures, but this one is available to all and sundry.
You think I'm exaggerating? No way. Studying the Marseilles Tarot is an honour and sometimes I wonder what I have done to deserve this honour.
Of course, I also own some modern decks, and they provide me with great enjoyment and insight. But they are still just off-shoots, however great they are.
Cerulean
03-03-2003, 20:43
Ohhhhhh dearrrr......here's a whisper from the boot end...actually more a wondering, wandering curiousity.
In European history classes, the perfection of how France came to be in geography, learning and history---why yes, in learning and many many things, how the French threads of art and learning gleam very bright in modern times even after the Italian lights had dimmed...have others found that the Marseilles French patterns to be more truly distinguished and preferred by popular culture? Perhaps more lasting?
I wonder if the development and popularity of French Marseilles patterns and variations can be traced also to their empire building at their heights of almost ruling the world during Napoleonic times or perhaps the more brillant later periods in history. Perhaps the Marseilles were more the product of the popular gameplayers rather than the courtly life.
In terms of courtly tarot, Napoleon's assignment was passed to di Gumppenberg, but these odd variations in design were never the standard that JMD and others have talked about. Have others well-travelled in Europe found the designs of the French Marseilles patterns to be popular to this day?
I like LeTarot.com's site in English to peek at modern and classic Marseilles information.
Best wishes,
Mari H.
darwinia
03-03-2003, 21:42
The crude artwork overall, and the lack of imagination evident on the pip cards of Marseilles decks, make them most undesirable for collecting or studying *for me.* It's fascinating that some find it compelling, and the recent interest in courses and seminars to find depth in the pips was like opening an interesting book with a new theory; the human mind excels at creating associations out of its own imagination.
I like the diversity of tarot and the history of Marseilles decks is an interesting component of the whole, but I think it nonsensical to believe that there is a "need" to study any deck to master tarot or become a fully realized initiate. Why limit yourself to such a belief? Why box people in, why create such a constrained label?
JMD:
<<mastery of this deck allows for greater looseness of the imaginative, inspirational and intuitional faculties>>
The real "freeing capacity" is within your own brain, what deck you use or study with is irrelevant.
He, he, Moongold,
that thought crossed my mind this AM when I was waiting for my bus in a below freezing temperature. You know, all kinds of wild thoughts that cross people's minds under stress. I was saying to myself, "this jmd guy is really smart and educated in Tarot, I wish I could see a reading by him".
I don't know why this thought crossed my mind this AM but it did.
So you see, similar thoughts cross people's minds in opposite sides of the globe.
Now JMD, I really appreciate your discourse.
Cheers
Alex.
Originally posted by Moongold
[B] I've never seen you do a reading and I would love to! I'm sure the immense knowledge you have of Tarot would enrich a reading.
B]
Artwork, by its nature provides a perspective of the world through the eyes of the artist (http://www.tidalpool.org/about_me/photos/arbus_hand_grenade.jpg ).
When an artist works with archetypal images, you have little choice but to see that image from their viewpoint. Imagine the High Priestess (http://www.temple.edu/photo/photographers/arbus/arbusp15.htm ) or the Empress (http://www.temple.edu/photo/photographers/arbus/arbusp12.htm )
A Marseilles deck allows for flexibility in the learning process.
Moongold
04-03-2003, 04:05
Originally posted by jmd
.........mastery of this deck allows for greater looseness of the imaginative, inspirational and intuitional faculties... (maybe I'm being too controversial here - but I must admit that I truly do hold to this).[/list]I often try to both be reasonably open to other decks (which I also, incidentally, highly value), other people's opinion (which I also highly value), and not try to really 'push' for the Marseilles - even if I often mention it as a possibility.
Here, I am being more forthcoming, and am controversially (without much doubt) stating that, irrespective of any other decks also studied and worked with, the Marseilles needs to also be included...
... this wasn't too strongly put, was it?!?
Hi again, JMD and also Diana,
I appreciate the historical value of the Marseilles and read about it when I began to learn Tarot. I doubt that I would have stayed with it had the Marseilles been all that was available however, and I guess many people feel the same. I am really keen to purchase a Marseilles but couldn't find one in Melbourne last week.
The Marseilles is like beautiful old wine. Not everyone likes wine, however, and many people don't drink.
How would you ensure that people learnt the Marseilles, JMD?
Maybe US Games could be persuaded to give away a free Marseilles with each "label" deck they sell. That would introduce people to the Marseilles and to history as well.
Moongold
I had written an earlier reply to some of the comments, and it somehow got cyberlost (maybe the wormed-hole ate it)...
I have, in what follows, not addressed everyone's comments - I'll try to redress this later. As to the Melbourne shops - and the TS in particular - not currently having Marseilles decks in stock, I'm shocked. Try Esoteric Bookshop in Hawthorn, or Celebrations Metaphysical in Croydon Hills, or the Steiner Store in Kew. Failing that, the new Lygon Street Borders opposite that great Melbourne Bookshop Readings, or some of the numerous smaller new-age shops around the place are bound to have a few!
_______________
I suppose that the historical seniority of the deck isn't really at issue, for others may - though I personally doubt it - be more ancient (such as the Visconti Sforza). The point is that the Marseille provides the root to those other decks which have emerged, provides, so to speak, the essence of determining Tarot as Tarot: deviate too much from Marseille iconography, and you've exited Tarot domain.
The artwork of the Marseilles has, in more than one way, been updated a number of times - the Camoin, Hadar and Marteau (Grimaud) are but three 20th century examples. The 'updates', however, seek to maintain those characteristics which are essential to the deck, and neither add nor subtract from the deck - each of those three decks mentioned (and, of course, other Marseilles) do this in mildly different ways. But I also realise that the kind of 'update' implied seeks to possibly change the very nature of the image to something more 'modern': what is a High Priestess in modern society? If this question can still be asked, however, the image has served its purpose, for it remains understood - and I specifically mention this particular card for even in Renaissance times, and though its society was image, or rather, iconographically rich, much of Tarot's images were not as common as may at first be presumed.
I agree with Holmes that mastery of any deck will become the basis for understanding other decks. This is surely an argument for the very careful selection of that deck which one will seek to master - for its specifics will colour others. Here again, the Marseille stands alone: no specific individuals (as in the Visconti-Sforza) nor particular astrological, elemental or kabbalistic associations mar the image. These other and important considerations may therefore be allocated in various proper ways by various individuals on the various pathways towards the horizon of mastery.
The Etteilla has been (and thanks for mentioning it and that site, Macavity), in many ways and until the 20th century, very much the main modified esoteric deck on the continent of Europe, much like the RWCS has been in the 20th century. Each, however, is accurate as Tarot to the extent they have similarities to the Marseilles. Their peculiar deviations - though wonderful for further related study - is also their weakness as Tarot. If this is the case, it again makes for the study of the Marseilles as crucially important, even if seemingly (& it is only an appearance) excruciatingly difficult for some.
With regards to Moongold's astute observations, and her partial listing of some of those qualities she has carefully observed - such that I am witty, delightful, knowledgeable, friendly, sensitive and aware man (my humblest apologies if I've omitted some other observed important attributes) - my other virtue (obviously omitted for no apparent reason) of pious modesty prevents me from making further comments ;)
With Kaz, my main Tarot reading deck is actually not a Marseilles (though in my case, one which is closely related). I suppose that when I joined this site, I decided for various reasons that I would not do any full readings (as with any decision, however, it may be periodically reviewed - which I will therefore do). I have, however, made a (small) number of direct contributions to possible interpretations of other's readings, and the meaning of various cards in isolation, in combination and in certain positions. For example, one recent one which comes to mind is firemaiden's choice of three musical pieces, and another is in the thread 'Right after the WTC attack (http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4864)'.
Certainly anyone with a certain amount of experience and background knowledge may see in the cards certain aspects others may have difficulties seeing, and some of us wonderful story tellers will weave a meaningful whole from the separate cards more easily - but an accurate reading will depend on its accuracy not from these skills (which may only aide), but from the open disposition of the reader at the specific time, whether the reader be 'experienced' or be a 'beginner' (we are all the latter in some ways).
The awe Diana mentions is, in my view, the first step. Awe and reverence.
... and a little PS to Moongold - the next Melbourne Tarot Café will focus on the Celtic Cross - and possibly other spreads will come into it - so I'll have to give actual demonstrations of on-the-spot readings...
i did have the classic tarot by stuart kaplan once,, is that a americanized marsielles ? like the true marsielles or changed ?
for i recall a good size book that came with the packages, and if that is a marsielles deck then that is the only english (that i know off) book written for it,, might be worth it for me to go find it again,, if that is a true marsielles ?
Holmes, the deck called 'Tarot Classic' is a replica of a Swiss Schaffhouse deck, similar, but not the same, as a Marseilles (for example, both legs of the Hanged Man are straight and tied). The book (with the same title) is a good introduction to Tarot, but would probably not be very helpful in terms of what we are talking about here.
Incidentally, the Schaffhouse/Classic is my main reading deck...
Moongold
04-03-2003, 12:37
Originally posted by jmd
... and a little PS to Moongold - the next Melbourne Tarot Café will focus on the Celtic Cross - and possibly other spreads will come into it - so I'll have to give actual demonstrations of on-the-spot readings...
Yea, JMD.........! Saturdays at present are difficult but I am determined to get along there soon. I look forward to meeting you.
Your reverence and awe for the Tarot is shared by we Phillistines ( :laugh: )who haven't yet been able to learn the Marseilles or who for some reason choose not to just yet. The paths of learning are simply different and that is wonderful.
The discussions of the history of Tarot here and Diana's elegant regard for the European perspectives are what led me to the TS Bookshop last week.
By the way, they usually do have at least a few Marseilles decks in stock. Some other soul had got in ahead of me. They had samples for people to look at.
Blessings
Moongold
PS I didn't list modesty as one of your attributes because I thought it might go to your head :laugh:
Here I am quoting someone, but I don't know who, so if anyone recognises these words, please come and claim them:
"The Marseilles Tarot is quite unburdened with any self-conscious symbolism. There is no attempt to make the cards conform to a particular individual's metaphysical or psychological theory."
That is another reason for studying the Marseilles deck. It is perhaps the most neutral of all decks.
Originally posted by Diana
Here I am quoting someone, but I don't know who, so if anyone recognises these words, please come and claim them:
"The Marseilles Tarot is quite unburdened with any self-conscious symbolism. There is no attempt to make the cards conform to a particular individual's metaphysical or psychological theory."
That is another reason for studying the Marseilles deck. It is perhaps the most neutral of all decks. I believe that's from Sallie Nichols's book, Jung and Tarot (the only book in English I know of which discusses the symbolism of the Marseilles deck).
-- Lee :)
Khatruman
04-03-2003, 20:46
Ok... Ok... Ok....
Trying really hard to get into the essence of each card, which is why I find myself buying decks of different perspectives. I do have a Marseilles deck by Grimaud, which I bought maybe 20 years ago. I pull it out and it just doesn't speak to me. I find the art to be rather juvenile.
I would love to have a Marseilles deck to study with that would be aesthetically brilliant. Could someone, perhaps jmd or Diana, please recommend a Marseilles deck that is vibrant???? Just point me to some pics.. and maybe I will delve finally into that Historical section of the forums..*s*...
I appreciate the Marseilles deck deeply, but I am not a fundamentalist for it.
For those who find the Marseilles deck aesthetically less than appealing, I would recommend one of the Italian engraved decks. My personal favourite is the Ancient Italian Tarot --- by and large, the symbolism of the Majors and the attitudes of the court cards are interpretations of the Marseilles deck --- but the whole thing has been redesigned and some may find it more attractive. It is still rather old-fashioned.
The Fournier Marseilles is to the Grimaud Marseilles rather as the Universal Waite is to the U.S. Games Rider-Waite. It has been redone as paintings rather than flat colours and line art.
Frankly, I wouldn't so much be eager that you own something called a "Tarot of Marseilles" so much as that you own a free deck, free of agendas and someone else's esoteric or eccentric interpretations, but rather is based on the traditions older than those. The Marseilles deck is one of the easiest ways to get a free deck; it is not the only option.
Originally posted by Lee
I believe that's from Sallie Nichols's book, Jung and Tarot (the only book in English I know of which discusses the symbolism of the Marseilles deck).
-- Lee :)
Thanks Lee. Although I've never read that book, so either she quoted someone else, or the person that I got it from quoted her. Such is life on the internet - words go round and round and in the end no-one knows who wrote them anymore.
Moongold
05-03-2003, 02:04
Originally posted by ihcoyc
Frankly, I wouldn't so much be eager that you own something called a "Tarot of Marseilles" so much as that you own a free deck, free of agendas and someone else's esoteric or eccentric interpretations, but rather is based on the traditions older than those. The Marseilles deck is one of the easiest ways to get a free deck; it is not the only option.
Owning a Marseilles deck seems to be highly desirable for those interested in the study of Tarot. Although I plan to get a deck I want to make a considered purchase and am very interested in people's views. I must check Aeclectic's display of various decks.
I have recently begun to use the Old English as this is relatively free of interpretations on the pips anyway. The Majors are beautiful but more atmospheric than the Marseilles.
Has anyone else used this deck for reading?
Moongold
Icestorm
05-03-2003, 05:46
Im sorry but does anyone else find the marseille artwork..... Repelling??
I was tempted to get it as my first deck, but for me the undesirable artwork and the pips were quite off-putting.
Incidentally im curious about how ppl can read the designated meanings of the unillustrated pip cards in the marseille deck.
I for one have no clue... enlighten me anyone?
Originally posted by Icestorm
Incidentally im curious about how ppl can read the designated meanings of the unillustrated pip cards in the marseille deck.
I for one have no clue... enlighten me anyone? There are basically two ways that people generally read with non-illustrated-pip decks like the Marseilles.
1) Simply use the same meanings as you use for illustrated decks. To do this, you need to be familiar enough with the illustrations so that you can call to mind, for example, what the picture on the illustrated 6 of Swords is, so you can apply it to the non-illustrated deck you're reading.
2) The second and possibly more widely used, certainly more widely discussed, method is to combine the meaning of the number with the meaning of the suit. So, for example, the 4 of Swords might mean stable (4) thoughts (Swords). To do this, you need to be familiar with a set of meanings for numbers 1 (Ace) through 10, and with the meanings of the suits. There are many different sets of numerological meanings, and many variations; there isn't one particular standard. One could make up one's own just as easily as finding someone else's. One could even make up meanings for the suits, although those tend to be more standardized. One book in English that discusses this approach is "Choice Centered Tarot" (now re-released as "Everyday Tarot" by Gail Fairfield.
3) A variation of 2) would be to use the meanings of the Major cards 1 through 10 (Magician through Wheel of Fortune) to provide the numerological meanings, and then combine those with the meanings of the suits. So, for example, the 6 of Wands could mean a love (VI Lovers) of action (wands), or taking action (Wands) in a relationship (VI Lovers), or making a decision (VI Lovers) on a course of action (Wands).
-- Lee :)
Khatruman
05-03-2003, 13:06
As part of my learning process, I do feel it is important to go back to the source available to understand where we are now, and as such, I see the importance of a more ancient deck. I see where learning to use a Marseilles can be important.
So I ask again: Can someone recommend to me a vibrant Marseilles deck??? I'm sorry, but the woodcuts I am seeing just fall so flat to me. I do also understand this concept of a "free deck" but Marseilles has its own agenda too, which is clearly Catholic and Christian (Pope, Papess, Devil, Judgment, etc. etc.) so I think to say that it gets back to a deck without a system is to make an unconscious assumption that Christianity is the norm, or the unbiased belief. I am sure a Wiccan, pagan, Buddhist, Muslim, Native American, etc. would hardly see Marseilles as a "free deck".
In any case, I see the point in getting me to focus more on cards numbers, placement, suits, etc. by getting rid of systems put on by Golden Dawn and all systems afterwards that are either influenced by that or actively rebel against it. So I would like a good ancient deck.
What about the 15th Century Visconti tarot? There looks to be a lovely deck on this site: MacGregor Historic Games (http://www.historicgames.com/RPcards.html) I find this deck to be luxurious and striking, much more so than the dull woodcuts of the Marseilles that I have seen.
Calling to jmd and Diana... help!!! get me into a good deck here!!
Originally posted by Khatruman
Can someone recommend to me a vibrant Marseilles deck??? I'm sorry, but the woodcuts I am seeing just fall so flat to me Try the Fournier Marseilles:
http://www.wicce.com/fournierpix.html
It's probably available at alidastore.com.
-- Lee :)
Originally posted by Khatruman
I do also understand this concept of a "free deck" but Marseilles has its own agenda too, which is clearly Catholic and Christian (Pope, Papess, Devil, Judgment, etc. etc.) so I think to say that it gets back to a deck without a system is to make an unconscious assumption that Christianity is the norm, or the unbiased belief. It is true that those symbols are there; they were the ones that were chosen when the tarot was made. FWIW, all of the Tarot symbols take the shapes that are proper to the Italian Renaissance culture where the cards were first made: this is as true of cards like the Chariot and the Wheel of Fortune as well as for the Devil or the Judgment. All of the symbols have rich connections in mediaeval culture.
You see their presence as the "agenda," while I see attempting to conceal their identities ("Hierophant," "High Priestess" &c) as the axe-grinding. It's seldom very successful; even in the Robin Wood deck the "Hierophant" is pretty obviously a Pope. If it's the names that offend, get one that's captioned in French or Italian.
I really do not think that the Marseilles Tarot has a Christian or a Catholic message. If I thought this, I would not be able to use these cards, due to my personal feelings towards Catholicism and most of Christianity. These pictures were chosen because they were best understood in those days. The Pope, the Emperor. These were important figures in those days, but they represented something symbolically, and I do really believe they should not be taken literally. And the meaning is just as strong today as it was in those days. Perhaps even stronger, due to the passage of time which gives us a more objective view.
When I see the Pope on television for instance, I have to switch it off. When I see the Pope in my Tarot deck, I see the symbol behind it and not the person.
firemaiden
05-03-2003, 16:25
Hmm. I see your point, jmd, and Diana. Well then, which Marseilles Deck do we get?????
Originally posted by Lee
There are basically two ways that people generally read with non-illustrated-pip decks like the Marseilles.
-- Lee :)
There's another way to do it, which Lee didn't mention. And that is just look at the card and let your intuition (as well as some plain logic) do the work. I was studying one of my favourite minors earlier this evening - the 6 of Cups, because I felt it would help me with an issue I'm trying to work on right now. Just looking at it - seeing the way the cups are laid out, the way they are separated by a stem, the colours and the shape of the flowers gave me all the insight I could have dreamed of.
By the way, Lee's first way that he described, i.e. remembering the illustrated deck's picture and applying it to the non-illustrated picture, I do not recommend at all. Lee, I don't want to sound mean here, honest, but I don't see the point in doing that. The Marseilles has it's own pictures. Marseilles minors have this wrong reputation of being non-illustrated, but they're not. If they were non-illustrated, they would just have a number and a suit written on them, i.e. 6 OF CUPS. They don't - they have beautiful illustrations. Perhaps one could call them "still life", although if one looks long enough, they are not still at all.
Macavity
05-03-2003, 17:04
Well, some of us did once promise (threaten?) to "do some of these" at some stage - Right, Diana? :)
I'll have to try very hard. Wait... The six seems (to me) to be rather different from the rest of the cups (except perhaps the ten?) With... a pronounced vertical division? (No rocket science yet, huh?) A conflict - or rather a coming togeather... synthesis of just plain DIFFERING emotions. Uhm... "Resolution of mixed feelings" maybe? Alright - Stop sniggering at the back there you boys (and girls)! :D
Macavity (with "head on the block")
P.S. Perhaps this might lighten some of the debates? ;)
Ah Macavity! You see? You can do it easy as pie! Soon you'll be able to write a whole page on this card. And now get working on the 10 of Cups. Fascinating card, that one! :) And then hop over to the 2 of Cups. And before you know it, it'll be way way past your bedtime and you won't have seen the time pass, because you'll also have spent time comparing all the four 6's and that is another great enterprise.
P.S. I'll give you a nudge, just 'cos I'm feeling kind today. On that six of Cups, work on left/right. And as Lee pointed out in his thread, don't forget the Lovers arcanum (VI).
Macavity
05-03-2003, 18:39
Mirror images (Yep - similar to "Lamovreux") Guy + two (almost) mirrored gals. Aside: Hmmm, come to think of it - a lot of the majors and corresponding minors ARE similar in structure. Returning to the six - This has the vertically arranged cup elements (feminine) seperated or bound, by common interest in "freudian" (Huh - anything vertical) male? And paralleled in Lovers with a continuation of strong vertical theme with an actual "male symbol" (cupid in circle + arrow) But this makes me think NOW more of a family relationship - With distribution of ages. A "mother in law problem"? Heheh. But perhaps I've reverted to pop psychology rather than intuition. Ack! :D
I would agree with the set 2 : 6 : 10 the most "obvious" one - With either the simple (or non-existant) vertical dividers. With the two of cups, I find it hard to get away from the "Lurve" keyword... Too late now folks! (Anyway it is similar to the RWS and Thoth images). With the Marseille ten of cups... Well, that's certainly different! I get an odd sensation (yucky almost) of oppressive, smothering love or cloying sentimentality? As an aside, seeming almost like the Egyptian symbolism of multiple "captive" clones dominated by a large figure (of pharaoh) - usually doing somthing rather unpleasant to them... Time to switch off the "Macavity" channel, I think! })
But hey this is quite FUN... Perhaps we should all have a seperate thread - and relegate this random stuff to somewhere more appropriate? Sorry for the clutter all you non-interested folks!
Macavity (Teacher's pet - Heheh :))
Originally posted by Diana
By the way, Lee's first way that he described, i.e. remembering the illustrated deck's picture and applying it to the non-illustrated picture, I do not recommend at all. Lee, I don't want to sound mean here, honest, but I don't see the point in doing that. The Marseilles has it's own pictures. <...> You're not being mean, don't worry! But I wasn't saying that I read that way (or any of the ways I listed), nor was I recommending any of them, I was just saying people do it these ways, and I do believe that people do read non-scene Minors (is that phrase okay? Sheesh! :D) by applying meanings they've already learned from RWS/Thoth-type decks. However, again without saying whether I favor such an approach, it seems to me that there are people who might try reading with a Marseilles deck this way, but who wouldn't otherwise, because they don't want to do things differently than they're used to. So by insisting that people read Marseilles decks certain ways and not other ways, you may be limiting the number of people who might be willing to try a Marseilles at all.
-- Lee :)
Moongold
05-03-2003, 20:58
I've had a quick look through all the decks on Aeclectic and found three that are Marseilles type decks:
Tarot de Marseilles
Visconti
Visconti Sforza
There is also something called the Mantegna Tarot which looks interesting.
I would find it really helpful if someone like JMD or Diana would write an article about the Marseilles decks, including the points they have been proposing here. It would also help if the specific variations of the deckwere named.
The point about the value of the decks is well made. It would be much easier for new people if there was an article of some kind to clarify the issues and it would be great if it were somewhere distinct on Aeclectic like Thirteen's and Umbrae's articles.
Moongold
Khatruman
05-03-2003, 21:41
Originally posted by ihcoyc
It is true that those symbols are there; they were the ones that were chosen when the tarot was made. FWIW, all of the Tarot symbols take the shapes that are proper to the Italian Renaissance culture where the cards were first made: You see their presence as the "agenda," ...If it's the names that offend, get one that's captioned in French or Italian. Please let me explain my view on this. I am neither offended by the imagery of the Church nor do I see this as an agenda. These figures of the church were natural figures of the time. I do understand that and don't see it as a conscious subversion of other cultures. I was simply trying to point out that it isn't "free" of a certain bias.
It is similar to when a group of people grow up in a homogenous society. Take, southern white views on blacks up to perhaps 30 years ago. Blacks were seen in many ways inferior to whites, that they had a "place" outside of white society. People who referred to the colored as not able to learn as well as whites or never able to be as sophisticated just saw that as the way things were. Italians of this period saw natural leadership and way of life as Christian. I just think it is necessary for one to realize that life everywhere isn't like that. Christianity is not the natural norm. To think that way excludes other groups of people.
I do, as Diana can do, look at a RWS card, or a Marseilles card and not bring in the baggage of the Christian church and its offenses of the past. This was the Italian Renaissance society out of which these cards were born, as a game that resonated with that societies symbols. In an historical context, reading the Marseilles can give great insight into its message and the essence of each card's meaning. I have become very interested in really seeing the origins of tarot due to jmd's insight as to bringing up this topic, and I am now on a hunt for a resonant deck with which to deepen the levels of my understanding of the tarot.
I am certainly not offended by the imagery of the Marseilles, but I think it is important to note that it is not "free" of bias, just as history is not a free and objective study of the past. Decisions are made, based on the culture it came out of, as to what represents the ultimate symbol of certain concepts.
Peace!
catboxer
05-03-2003, 22:49
Moongold:
Zowie! Your last post covered a lot of territory. There's already a lot of information about those topics you mentioned in the history forum, but it's sort of spread out.
But to do just a quick recap: There were lots of Visconti-style decks, but not many of the cards survived. Most of those very early Italian decks are represented by just a few cards, in many cases by only one card, and they're spread out in museums and private collections all over the world. The only one of those decks that's nearly complete is the Visconti-Sforza, but it also leaves some unanswered questions. It's missing four cards, and six of the surviving cards were painted by an artist other than the one who did the rest of the pack, so we don't know whether those six cards reproduce the original designs. As usual, we live in a less than perfect world.
The style and content of the pictures on Visconti-style cards differs in a number of important ways from that of the Marseilles-style decks. No one knows exactly when the Marseilles style began, but there's a certain amount of general agreement that Marseilles decks descended from a pattern that originated in Milan, maybe about 1500. That pattern survives in an artifiact known as the Cary Sheet, and there's a thread here at Aeclectic at http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6282 on that topic. Also, Stuart Kaplan has printed a picture of one card that was found at Visconti Castle at the end of the nineteenth century that looks awfully much like a Marseilles-style woodblock printed card. It's a two of coins, which is lucky because it has the cardmaker's name on it and the date: 1499. If it's the real deal, that would push the date of origin of the Marseilles style back to way earlier than what was previously thought.
The important thing about the Marseilles decks, to me anyway, is that they established a solid, traditional way of picturing the subjects and also set in place a card sequence that people were very reticent to mess with. In the earliest years of the cards, people experimented with the pictorial elements and changed the trump sequence to suit their fancy any old way they felt like, sort of the way people do today.
The Mantegna Deck you mentioned isn't really a Tarot (it's 50 picture cards, and it wasn't drawn by Mantegna, either), but it sheds a lot of light on the Tarot. The 50 cards are arranged in a very hierarchical sequence, almost like a ladder, from lowest to highest. It's an expression of Neoplatonic philosophy, which some of us believe is also the philosophy that informed the Tarot trumps. Also, many of the Mantegna pictures deal with the same subjects as the Tarot trumps.
Lots of the information you were talking about is already here at Aeclectic, but is, as I said before, pretty spread out. There's also some very good information on these topics at Tom Tadfor Little's site, Tarothermit.com.
Moongold
06-03-2003, 03:19
Dave,
Thanks for that summary. It was extremely interesting.
It would be great to have an article that brought the threads together. It's quite a task to wade through all the threads.
If we have some articles for people to read to whet the appetite I'm sure it would be appreciated.
JMD has proposed that a study of the Marseilles should be included in every person's education about tarot. That is an ambitious undertaking but if he could put some substance around that proposal in an article, that would go some of the way towards achieving that aim.
The same applies to an article about the history, and perhaps you could do that? I know the material is available all over Aeclectic and the internet but one has to be an information mole to get it all together. Not everyone has the time or the inclination.
It is just an idea.
Tarot often seems to be arcane and mysterious. Some of that is charming but shouldn't necessarily extend to basic information like which Marseilles deck night be the best to buy and why this is so. What books are available to complement my understanding of the history and so on.
Moongold
Macavity
06-03-2003, 06:48
MoonGold
I have the Camoin Marseille, but I must admit it initially had the effect of my almost needing to don sun-glasses (shades) ;)
For something "softer" that retains e.g. the shapes in the majors and the positioning of the objects in the minors (but maybe not the decoration) I have a copy of LoScarabeo's "Classical Tarots". Another possibility is their "Ancient Italian" deck. Both are based on the Della Rocca/Gumppenberg (1835) "Soprafino" style. Both are VERY beautiful! The AI is generally held to be the truer reproduction. Their CT has been "fiddled with" somewhat to give e.g. less grime of ages and the colours have been redone(?) to get rid of "bleeding" or slight blurriness? For those brighter colours I am prepared to pay the price of the addition of some (rather strange?) "key words" in the CT - Aaargh! :D
For Pictures of both:
AI: http://www.wicce.com/antichitalianipix.html
CT: http://www.wicce.com/classicalpix.html
Macavity
Moongold
06-03-2003, 06:57
Thanks Macavity,
They are actually quite beautiful. If I can read with the Old English I could read with these.
Moongold
Khatruman
06-03-2003, 07:24
Moongold,
Thank you for the succinct and well-put request for a comprehensive and more easily accessed well of knowledge and available decks. It is quite time consuming to find anything on the Marseilles of some substance, and since this thread was pretty much a promotion of it, this makes it much easier to get into it.
Macavity,
Thank you for the links to the Ancient Italian and Classic Tarots. They are indeed beautiful and I am definitely considering buying one of those. I could get into a study of the tarot with one of those decks.
Peace!
firemaiden
06-03-2003, 07:42
Macavity, why do I find the AI has brighter colors than the CT (just for clarification, I mean classical tarot, not cosmic toaster).
Macavity
06-03-2003, 08:44
Don't know. Don't have the AI. Someone around here DID have the AI deck? In retrospect I might (probably) have come to prefer it. The observation was perhaps more about definition of the colours and the "bleeding"? At the time of purchase, I didn't feel I would LIKE "historical" repro decks much. My opinion changed e.g. with the Ancient Minchate... But hinesight is a wonderful thing ;)
Macavity.
Originally posted by firemaiden
Macavity, why do I find the AI has brighter colors than the CT (just for clarification, I mean classical tarot, not cosmic toaster). Here is a comparison of the two decks, written by myself... :)
http://www.tarotpassages.com/ancientclassicallb.htm
I must point out that, strictly speaking, these decks are not Marseilles decks, although certainly beautiful and interesting in and of themselves, and worth owning.
-- Lee :)
I have used both Classical Tarots and Ancient Italian. I traded away the Classical and kept the Ancient. Those who find the colours on a Marseilles deck a bit too bright or garish are likely to prefer the Ancient Italian over the Classical.
The Classical does also contain keywords, in four (or is it five?) languages, which seem to refer to a tradition that varies substantially from the familiar Golden Dawn tradition that's commonest in the English speaking world. I've no notion where they come from. They don't match the keywords on other Lo Scarabeo decks, either.
I didn't like the court cards in the Classical, either. They were coloured rather oddly, in a way that made them seem to have flushed and puffy cheeks. This tended to make them look like rather shady characters, which may be an interesting approach, but isn't really what I'd want in a traditional deck.
One last complaint with the Classical deck is that it appeared that some of the pip units, esp. in the higher Wands and Swords. were clipped at the edges to make room for the keyword border.
I'd recommend either of them who wants a deck mostly compatible with Marseille imagery but who finds the Tarot de Marseille woodcut style unappealing. But given a choice, I'd pick the Ancient over the Classical.
Just a brief little note that the Classical Tarot is a totally different deck to the earlier mentioned Tarot Classic... (I suppose that if the former is the CT, the latter is the equivalent to the 'Tostaire cosmique' - and because Swiss, probably x-rayed... reference is to another thread).
Khatruman
06-03-2003, 23:02
Ok, I just added the Ancient Italian Tarot to my collection by ordering it this evening. Thank you for the wonderful recommendations and comparisons. I know it is not a "true" Marseilles, but I have a Marseilles with the Grimaud "Ancien Tarot de Marseilles" so I can always use it as comparison if this deck isn't pure enough in the historical sense. Sorry, but the woodblocks just don't do it for me.. :D
Peace!
Cerulean
06-03-2003, 23:20
You might want to check out Castle and Tavern of Crossed Destinies by Italo Calvino, as this writer distinctly stayed up many a night making a mental pictorial diagram of the different cards, taking both the Visconti and Marseilles decks, and made up stories. A ten of swords card could be a road design and a court card with wear on tear on a tattered knight card fuels a pretty tale of a travelling hero. The card discussed is on the side of the margin...and Italo Calvino humorously used Italian literature as a basis for many of the stories.
Mark Filpas' Tarot Masquerade has many different styles and descriptions of classic Italian decks, old and some recreated versions that take off from old patterns. The Ancient Italian published by Lo Scarabeo is a later Serraville version of patterns--1880, I believe. The first fanciful engraving that is distinctly similar, I believe, is the Della Rocca designer for Di Gumppenberg. For historical interest, the Visconti, Soprafino, Dotti and Neoclassical on Filpas' site are Italian-based; then there's a huge review of Egyptian patterns that include glimpses of Etteilla style decks...there's lots more to browse, gorgeous pictures and interesting information.
http:
//www.spiritone.com/~filipas/Masquerade/Reviews/index.html
I have to check reviews of French Marseilles designs...I'll try to post to the study group or a similar topic if I come across something.
Here are two aeclectic reviews (http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/marseilles/review.html) on the Marseille deck I just happen to have bumped across (;)).
But please note that they are both for very modern renditions of the Marseilles: the Camoin and the Hadar, each less than ten years old.
Mark Filipas's site is always a delight - if you haven't checked it yet, I would recommend it.
Khatruman
10-03-2003, 17:46
Ok, since we are on the topic of pre Golden Dawn Decks, and I now have the Ancient Italian tarot, what are people's thought on the Ancient Minchiate Etruria? I read a couple reviews, and I saw the Ancient Minchiate published by Lo Scarabeo, and also there is one done by Brian Williams. Though the Williams seems attractively packaged, I do not like the artwork of his...seems too pastel.
What is this deck like for reading? Reviews say it is more of a game deck than a divination one because there are no books on it, but, heck, I am getting into these older decks to get a more intuitive feel anyway, and with both 4 elements and 12 zodiac signs, I can't see why this deck couldn't be wonderfully divinatory!!!
Logiatrix
11-03-2003, 16:57
Originally posted by Khatruman
What is this deck like for reading? Reviews say it is more of a game deck than a divination one because there are no books on it, but, heck, I am getting into these older decks to get a more intuitive feel anyway, and with both 4 elements and 12 zodiac signs, I can't see why this deck couldn't be wonderfully divinatory!!! [/B]
K.,
if you are speaking of any deck by brians williams, then you are talking about a superior quality work with a book that stands alone, IMHO.
the minchiate tarot by brian williams comes with an excellent book that will not only tell all you want to know about the divinatory uses of his beautiful minchiate deck, but will also educate you on the history of tarot, italy, and the renaissance.
in my own experience, this deck was quite usable; however, i don't use it anymore, because i consider it one the great treasures of my collection. if you are a collector, this set is quite a find; as a tarot student, you just can't go wrong with anything by brian williams.
he lives forever...
:)
Khatruman
11-03-2003, 20:15
Originally posted by metaz
the minchiate tarot by brian williams comes with an excellent book that will not only tell all you want to know about the divinatory uses of his beautiful minchiate deck, but will also educate you on the history of tarot, italy, and the renaissance.
in my own experience, this deck was quite usable; ...as a tarot student, you just can't go wrong with anything by brian williams.
he lives forever...
:) My apologies if I was direspectful towards Mr. Williams. From what I have read in reviews, etc., he was quite a brilliant scholar of the tarot, and one of the few scholars of the Minchiate to write. My observation was an aesthetic one on the artwork of his deck. I much preferred the reproduction of the Ancient Minchiate deck to the art on his deck, and, at least to me, the artwork is essential to my reading of a deck. Is Mr. Williams' book on the Minchiate available as a stand alone without the deck? What I am getting at is, could I use Williams' book with the Ancient deck? In fact, I am interested more in developing my intuition to a greater degree through the historic decks, the pre Golden Dawn decks, and breaking my reliance on books for meaning in favor of my intuitive sense. The idea of having the four elements as cards, and the zodiac signs, has intriguing possibilities for me.
Peace!
Logiatrix
22-03-2003, 14:09
no, no...i didn't take it that you were being disrespectful, khatruman. :) no worries!
i just seized the opportunity to verbally ooze and genuflect about brian williams...my apologies if it was a bit overboard!
my hope remains that you have an oppurtunity to at least see more pics of his minchiate deck...
that's all.
:)
Khatruman
22-03-2003, 14:50
Originally posted by metaz
no, no...i didn't take it that you were being disrespectful, khatruman. :) no worries!
i just seized the opportunity to verbally ooze and genuflect about brian williams...my apologies if it was a bit overboard!
my hope remains that you have an oppurtunity to at least see more pics of his minchiate deck...
that's all.
:) Message taken, and I believe we all ooze and genuflect on those whom we have an affinity for :D No hard feelings in the least. I did end up purchasing the Ancient Minchiate, simply because I am in a phase where I am looking at pre-occult decks and getting a sense of tarot's history.. Thank you for responding
Khatruman,
If you are looking into reading with unillustrated PIPs try these articles. I got it from a post here at Aeclectic, but don't remember who, jmd I think? but it has been very interesting reading. I too have been delving into the unillustrated PIPs. I just ordered Brian William's Renaissance Tarot. I have been reading with some 'partially' illustrated pips and actually am finding I prefer it. It forced me to think about what the different suits and numbers mean. I also think it makes the Majors stand out more in a reading, as well they should.
http://www.astroprofile.com/tarotinfo.htm
enjoy!
Mimi
the web site refered to by Mimers. Someone is charging U$ 500 for a Tarot reading over the phone, or in person.
Originally posted by Mimers
http://www.astroprofile.com/tarotinfo.htm
Wow $500 dollars! better tell me the winning lottery numbers for that amount. :P
Anyway the articles are free and quite informative. Thanks for pointing that out Alex!
Mimi
Khatruman
22-03-2003, 23:33
Thank you for that site, Mimi.. I downloaded the minors article and it looks wonderful... lots there to study.. Thank you :D
I am bringing this thread back into the light of day so that I can use it as I study the Vechetta, Tarot of the Master.
Join me!
All of Umbrae's link no longer work....:(
Now here's an older thread!
I suppose over the next few days we are going to see a few older ones resurrected given Solandia's annoucement of an archived Forum Library!
Compared to the opening post I made some years ago, I would now be a little more careful in how I include mention of an Ur-Tarot. At the time, the Forum was still relatively small, and I was perhaps only one of two or three (hereon) that even had a more serious interest in Marseille-type decks. This has long since changed - but so has the need for greater precision.
The term I used in opening the thread derives indirectly from Goethe's usage of the same for his botanical studies, called there an Ur-Plant. It is not a manifested plant, but rather an archetype which shapes plant-formation.
There is, I would suggest, something very similar happening here, where there is an (unmanifest) ur-tarot to which individual specimen decks have greater or divergent similarities. The closer in proximity, the closer to what may be called (to my mind) 'pure' tarot.
Many decks diverge by being (to continue the plant analogy) of hybrid form, adding layers from non-tarot sources.
In that sense, there remains a greater 'purity' (to use a word that has loaded connotations unintended in this context) in Marseille-type decks.
All this is a more long-winded manner of re-iterating but one of the six or so points I include in my opening post.
I actually missed the post of Solandia's jmd. Didn't know we were getting a Forum Library. I was searching for info last night and came across this one, and not having time to read it in it's entirety I put it back into circulation. That might be a feature for the future, bookmarking search result threads for later perusal.
Anyway, thanks for the updated information.