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Can we talk about the Italian decks, in particular the Soprafino, Ancient Italian, the Lombardy and any others? I would like to get more familiar with these decks, compare a few and study them for a bit. I know some people here love the Italian decks, which ones do you have, read with (and how do you read with them), and study?
Cerulean, hoping you are able to join in.
faunabay
10-07-2009, 04:57
Here's a whole big long thread about just those deck. :P
http://tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=106097
The thread you link to is not exactly the same as the sort of thread I was hoping to start. It's not so much the buying aspect, I was hoping people would discuss them in terms of their part in Tarot History as well as actually reading with them, methods and comparisons in terms of symbolism, rather than which one is preferable taste-wise.
Was there a nearly three hundred year gap (bar the Mitelli deck) between the Visconti/Ferarra decks and the Lombardy, which I believe is from around 1780, where decks were not created or perhaps didn't survive? What was happening in Italy during the time in between? From the notes I have, there were French, Belgian and Swiss decks at that time.
Also, if comparing these deck, as I do with the Marseilles for recognition of which type they can be classified under as well as the symbolism, which other Italian decks are out there so that this exercise could be done?
Have also found this thread with some great posts by Mark Filipas on the later decks:
http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=24103&page=1&pp=10
Was there a nearly three hundred year gap (bar the Mitelli deck) between the Visconti/Ferarra decks and the Lombardy, which I believe is from around 1780, where decks were not created or perhaps didn't survive?
I'm sure there were two threads that that mentioned decks (or perhaps the iconograpy- card makers?) during that period.
I've got tons of 'saved' notes... can't find copys of the specific ones I'm thinking of at the moment.
Wasn't there a ban on cards in some countries during that time? (But not all!)
Bee :)
Thanks Bee, I've been searching and reading both here and in books and unless I'm wrong I can only see the Bolognese Minchiate and Siciliano being used during that time, all of which have an odd number of cards.
As for the more recent decks, it's a shame that the links to Mark Filipas' site don't work in the thread I linked in my last post, it would be good to see the differences and similarities between the decks he mentions.
There are some comparisons of each card here,
http://www.albideuter.de/html/gehangter.html
Perhaps doesn't cover that period of time, but maybe worth a look.
Bee :)
P.S. Had a thought - I think this was posted recently..... it's in my bookmarks, don't know how long I've had it.
Other online places for Mark Filipas;
I realise that these sites/articles/pics are well known (i.e. bookmarked) with a lot of people, but for some they may be 'new', and helpful.
A History Of Egyptian Tarot Decks
http://www.meta-religion.com/Esoterism/Tarot/a_history_of_egyptian_tarot_deck.htm.
Marks page about The Tarocchino Milanese Lexicon (Hebrew + Marsielle deck)
http://www.spiritone.com/~mfilipas/Masquerade/Essays/iota.html
THE 'TarotL' HISTORY INFORMATION SHEET
http://www.villarevak.org/misc/tarotl_1.html
B.
Ah yes! I bookmarked this site recently too (the albideuter one), and didn't realise it has some of the Soprafino and Ancient Italian cards.
Found this at a site that lists card games from around the world, has some interesting pages re. the structure of card decks (places and times). This page is the one for Italian decks:
http://www.pagat.com/national/italy.html
Bee :)
sapienza
12-07-2009, 22:06
Can we talk about the Italian decks, in particular the Soprafino, Ancient Italian, the Lombardy and any others? I would like to get more familiar with these decks, compare a few and study them for a bit. I know some people here love the Italian decks, which ones do you have, read with (and how do you read with them), and study?
I absolutely love these decks :) My personal favourite is the Ancient Italian. I know the Soprafino is much finer, but I prefer the softness of the Ancient Italian and I think the figures have much more expressive, kinder faces. This is my primary deck and the one I'd use if I did a reading for anyone.
I also recently obtained the Ancient Tarot of Bologna, which I found interesting as I understand it's the deck on which the Soprafino was based, and it's been wonderful to compare the two. Another gem I picked up recently (thanks to Le Fanu's enabling) was the Genovese (http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/cards/genovese/).
I'd love to read more discussion about these decks, especially the history. Thanks for starting the thread Moonbow :)
ETA...I've always found it odd that these decks are discussed so infrequently compared to the Marseille decks. I know the Marseille pattern has great historical significance, but the Italian decks are just SO much more beautiful..... in my opinion of course ;) :D
Oh excellent! I've just returned from a day out and have some reading to do now. :) Thanks for the links. I didn't know about the Genovese or that the Soprafino was based on the Bologna (should that be Bolognese, ie Mitelli)?
Bee, that's a great site!
I'll read more tomorrow as its late here, but I'm happy to see more interest in looking at these cards.
sapienza
13-07-2009, 17:44
It's the Ancient Tarot of Bologna (http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/cards/ancient-bologna/). A reproduction of a 1780 deck, but I don't know a lot more than that off the top of my head I'm afraid. I think it might have been discussed in the other thread faunabay linked to.
(should that be Bolognese, ie Mitelli)?
I don't think the two are related. I think the Mitelli is in a class of its own.
This is by Giacomo Zoni (1780). I also know very little else...
There is - however - this (http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=30787&highlight=bolognese) thread. And also this (http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=46917&highlight=bolognese) thread...
I have a beautiful Bolognese deck which I found in a shop in Barcelona which was a reproduction of a bolognese deck. Very small, very delicate and a Ltd edition reproduction of a Bolognese deck in the Fournier museum. One of these days I shall post scans. It's a bit like the LoS one but a little bit more delicate and refined...
That Ancient Tarot of Bologna is a nice deck. It seems fairly obviously derived from a Marseille deck - the titles, after all, are in French. But already you see the tendencies that led to the making of the various engraved decks. They have attempted to re-introduce perspective into the wheels of the Chariot, for instance - even if it seems that those tiny horses could never pull that huge cart. The Bateleur and the Valet of Batons have a lot of sympathetic character.
I don't think the two are related. I think the Mitelli is in a class of its own.
This is by Giacomo Zoni (1780). I also know very little else...
No they aren't related Le Fanu, and I was questioning whether it was the Bologna or the Bolognese that sapienza was saying the Soprafino is related to. I've never heard of such a relation before.
The Bologna is the Lo Scarabeo marseilles-type deck. The Bolognese is Mitelli's version of the Tarocco Bolognese card game that is still played today and still available from Dal Negro (http://www.playingcardsales.com/cards/morepics/10870_8_bolognese_patt.jpg) and Modiano.
prudence
14-07-2009, 08:09
Il Meneghello also puts out a version of the Zoni Bologna, I love it, gorgeous cardstock and it has the look and feel of an antique.
Il Meneghello also puts out a version of the Zoni Bologna, I love it, gorgeous cardstock and it has the look and feel of an antique.
But is it the same? Ive looked at very few scans of the Meneghello deck and it seems different to the LoS Ancient Tarot of Bologna...
Alan Ross
15-07-2009, 20:14
No they aren't related Le Fanu, and I was questioning whether it was the Bologna or the Bolognese that sapienza was saying the Soprafino is related to. I've never heard of such a relation before.
It's my understanding that the Soprafino and it's various clones are a part of the same lineage as the Ancient Tarot of Bologna. They are both a part of the Lombardy pattern as seen in this chart:
http://www.tarothermit.com/lineage.htm
The chart shows a gap of about a century for the Milan/Lombardy region during which there was virtually no tarot production. During that time, the region was under the rule of the religiously strict Spanish Habsburgs, who discouraged gambling, including the manufacture of playing cards. Eventually, rule passed to the more liberal Austrian Habsburgs and tarot was reintroduced into the region. Marseille decks were imported into the region and soon, homegrown versions of the Marseille were being manufactured in Italy to fill the growing demand.
The Ancient Tarot of Bologna is an example of one of the these homegrown Italian Marseille clones that was manufactured for export to the Lombardy region. What is confusing is that Bologna has its own distinctive tarot tradition (also shown on the chart) that is unrelated to the Zoni Marseille clone that was being manufactured in Bologna. During the 19 Century, the Lombardis grew more creative with their designs, especially with luxury decks like the Soprafino, but these decks were still an evolution of the Marseille (although with other influences as well), rather than being primarily based on the Lombardy tradition that existed before the Spanish occupation. So this is how the Ancient Tarot of Bologna and the Soprafino are related. There is info on this here:
http://www.tarothermit.com/milanese.htm
Alan
Thank you Alan. That first link = I love diagrams!
I've actually got bookmarked Tarot-of-the-Hermit pages in a separate Folder - I skipped right past it when looking for good links :rolleyes:
I recognised the pages straight away....... great site.
Bee :)
Alan Ross
15-07-2009, 22:50
Here is some more info on the development of Italian tarot after its reintroduction from Paul Huson's wonderful book "Mystical Origins of the Tarot" (scroll down):
http://books.google.com/books?id=dVne-RK9UVYC&pg=PA280&lpg=PA280&dq=lombardy+tarot&source=bl&ots=iRhPXqPBvp&sig=v6Ytao2xqAm9OlUA6_3okbmHv94&hl=en&ei=2s1dSuLCH4KwNsq19b8C&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6
Alan
Some excellent replies in this thread thanks, and Alan thank you for reminding me of the Tarot Hermit site, the history timeline image you linked to is the one I've been looking for, and thought it was on Andy's Playing Cards site, which is why I couldn't find it. I now understand now why the gap in history for the Italian decks.
So for comparison studies the relevant decks seem to be the Ancient Tarot of Bologna (not the Mitelli Bolognese deck), and the Soprafino, and perhaps the Liguria-Piedmont. The Lombardy has always seemed like a different animal to me.
prudence
16-07-2009, 06:53
But is it the same? Ive looked at very few scans of the Meneghello deck and it seems different to the LoS Ancient Tarot of Bologna...
I think they are the same, other than card stock and possibly the colors may vary slightly.
Alan, thank you for so clearly explaining the link...I have always had confusion about the Bologna (Zoni) and the Bolognese... your post and the links really straighten that out. :)
sapienza
16-07-2009, 13:41
Thanks for the info Alan :)
Alan Ross
16-07-2009, 18:46
So for comparison studies the relevant decks seem to be the Ancient Tarot of Bologna (not the Mitelli Bolognese deck), and the Soprafino, and perhaps the Liguria-Piedmont. The Lombardy has always seemed like a different animal to me.
Speaking of different animals, I would be interested in hearing about anyone's experience reading with the Vacchetta. Has anyone tried reading with it using the keywords included with the LS version (Tarot of the Master)?
Solandia's review of the Tarot of the Master indicates that the semi-illustrated pip cards, rather than being merely decorative, were designed with specific interpretations in mind, so presumably the Vacchetta was designed for divination rather than for card games. Can anyone confirm this or is this speculative?
Alan
Yes, the Vacchetta is a beautiful deck, but the LS keywords do zilch for me.
I've done a couple of readings with it, but more along 'intuitional' lines. It's not my first (or second) choice for divination. I think maybe the cards need to be studied to develope personal meanings - some sort of structure...
Bee :)
Solandia's review of the Tarot of the Master indicates that the semi-illustrated pip cards, rather than being merely decorative, were designed with specific interpretations in mind, so presumably the Vacchetta was designed for divination rather than for card games. Can anyone confirm this or is this speculative?
Im convinced Vacchetta had a system in mind and the fact that we don't have any explanatory text means (to me) that we have lost so much of what this deck had to say. It lost its chance to be the first widely used (virtually)scenic pip deck! Then the RWS came along...
Ive cut off the keywords on my Vaccetta. Sapienza reads with this deck; not sure if she has also cut off the keywords...
Le Fanu: Im convinced Vacchetta had a system in mind and the fact that we don't have any explanatory text means (to me) that we have lost so much of what this deck had to say.
I wonder if Ric would know if there's more infomation on the images....?
Bee :)
Alan Ross
16-07-2009, 22:56
Im convinced Vacchetta had a system in mind and the fact that we don't have any explanatory text means (to me) that we have lost so much of what this deck had to say. It lost its chance to be the first widely used (virtually)scenic pip deck! Then the RWS came along...
Ive cut off the keywords on my Vaccetta. Sapienza reads with this deck; not sure if she has also cut off the keywords...
It seems to me that if Vacchetta had a divinatory system in mind, he would have published some sort of guide to his deck. Perhaps such a guide was published, but was lost to posterity. If so, that really was a tragic shame! Personally, I far prefer the style of scenic pip illustration that Vacchetta employed in his deck to the illustrative style employed in the RWS.
I'm also not very happy with the Tarot of the Master's thick green borders and keywords, but I'm not into the trimming thing. I also have the Il Meneghello Vacchetta, but I'm reluctant to handle an unlaminated luxury deck with sharp corners that fray easily. So from my perspective, neither deck is ideally suited for practical use. Currently, the only Italian deck in my collection that I would feel comfortable using regularly is the LS Ancient Italian.
Alan
prudence
17-07-2009, 01:10
I use my IM Vacchetta a lot and so far no fraying anywhere, though I do shuffle the deck gently...not that I understand what it is saying most of the time, I just sort of go on intuition and try to use fewer cards, as that seems to help diminish confusion.
Kwaw made some comments about it that were eye opening regarding the courts in the Vacchetta... he said they were Biblical characters, though I cannot recall their names specifically...maybe he will see this post and comment. So, that could help in terms of interpreting the cards, knowing who the courts may have been depicting.
I find the suit of swords to be the most confusing of the bunch, as the ribbons and other decorative doodads all through the suit cause me to see each one of them in such a positive light. Although the 3 swords seems to have a negative connotation.
sapienza
17-07-2009, 10:29
Speaking of different animals, I would be interested in hearing about anyone's experience reading with the Vacchetta. Has anyone tried reading with it using the keywords included with the LS version (Tarot of the Master)?
I LOVE the Vacchetta deck :D
I only have the LS version and I have not trimmed off the borders, but I don't really take a lot of notice of the keywords. I'm normally not a fan of borders or keywords but for some reason they don't bother me with this deck. Sometimes a keyword will 'jump' out at me in a reading but otherwise I just ignore them. I'd be interested in who chose the keywords and what they were based on.
I find the deck reads very well. For me, it was my stepping stone to the Ancient Italian, kind of half way between scenic pips and non-scenic pips. I find it a great deck to use intuitively, but I have also spent a fair bit of time with it developing a personal system I guess. It's interesting how many of the cards have similar meanings to the RWS images though. I've never used the RWS as a reading deck mind you, but in many cards there are certainly connections. I find it overall a very positive deck. The Seven of Batons in this deck is my absolute favourite. It really is similar in meaning to the RWS but in a far more positive way. I love that the banner under the batons says "born from a single tree but with different destinies". How beautiful. I also love the 9 of Batons which to me is all about following your bliss in this deck. I tend to go on suits and numbers to derive my meanings and I feel like this deck works well in that way.
I'd love to know a lot more about the history of this deck, what it was intended for, and if it was for divination, what the depictions were based on. It's a great deck for those who love historical decks but want a little bit more to work with for intuitive readings. Imagine if this deck had become the 'standard' instead of the RWS.....how different things may have been.
I'd love to know a lot more about the history of this deck, what it was intended for, and if it was for divination, what the depictions were based on.
The one thing that stands out in the Vacchetta deck is the use of classical themes. I have the Lo Scarabeo version, seldom try to read with it, but sometimes look at it for a fresh perspective.
The Moon and the Sun have specifically been turned into Diana and Apollo. Roman emperor names are all through the Coins. The ten of Batons, depicting an organ, has a Latin inscription, Dulce auditum, "sweet to hear".
Biblical figures? The only one I really recognize is the Queen of Swords, who definitely seems to be Judith, carrying the head of Holofernes in her sack. Strictly speaking, she's not a Biblical figure. My guess would be that the King of Cups is Bacchus.
Of all the Italian decks I own, this one goes the furthest in shouting out, "I'm Italian".
I read with the Vacchetta too, but not often, and I use it in a similar way that I use a Marseilles deck but this one has little snippets of images which can sometimes bring out new things to say, The 'Amore' card is one of my favourite Lovers cards, with its blindfolded cupid stood on the world, a pair of doves close by and the plinth that cupid is stood on is decorated with lovers knots. Somewhere in the archives there is a reading I have done with this deck. Its does scream 'Italian', as Ihcoyc says, and its a wonderful deck to read with, bringing out a lot of imagination.
Vacchetta drew on his own art background and interest to produce the deck so its likely the depictions are from his own collection. I suspect the keywords are from Lo Scarabeo and I don't use them. I read them sometimes but mostly they don't convey what I see in the card. I only have the Lo Scarabeo deck and I like the green borders! :)
Alan Ross
17-07-2009, 17:51
I suspect the keywords are from Lo Scarabeo and I don't use them.
I have that same impression. I really wish they hadn't been added to the deck.
I only have the Lo Scarabeo deck and I like the green borders! :)
I have to say that the green borders color coordinate well with the colors LS used in the illustrations. If only they were thinner! I also have to say that I prefer Lo Scarabeo's colorization to Il Meneghello's. I actually like both, but the subtle hues used in the Tarot of the Master just seem to suit the images a little better.
Now I'm having second thoughts about my earlier rejection of the Tarot of the Master as a regular reading deck. I really do love the highly evocative imagery. Maybe I can live with those oversized borders. I think I'll spend some time alternating the Tarot of the Master with the Ancient Italian and see how they each read for me.
Alan
sapienza:The Seven of Batons in this deck is my absolute favourite. It really is similar in meaning to the RWS but in a far more positive way. I love that the banner under the batons says "born from a single tree but with different destinies". How beautiful.
Thank you for this translation sapienza, makes such a difference when you know what the text means. Yes, beautiful.
Looking at just the images, I originally thought that the whole deck was primarily related to art, artists, the classical 'hippies' of that time. In fact I still have that impression of the deck.
Bee :)
sapienza
18-07-2009, 15:25
Yes, I agree, the Vacchetta does feel like quite an 'arty' deck.
Alan, I am doing a similar exercise to you but with the Soprafino, Liguria-Piedmont, and Bologna for studying and comparison, and some readings with the Vacchetta. Its a very readable deck and makes a change from reading with the Marseilles families for me.
The Lombardy on the other hand, is not a readable deck for me, I find it cold and uninspiring. The people cards are expressionless and snapshot-like as though they are posing. I like to peruse it occasionally and I still wonder about the rear view of the Cavalieres. I don't hear of anyone else reading with this deck and its rarely mentioned.
Biblical figures? The only one I really recognize is the Queen of Swords, who definitely seems to be Judith, carrying the head of Holofernes in her sack.
Without doubt she is the biblical figure of Judith
http://spaightwoodgalleries.com/Media/Old_Masters/DeVos%20Heroines/DeVos_OT_Judith_IColl.jpg
Judith 13: 18 - 19
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
18 And Uzziah said to her, "O daughter, you are blessed by the Most High God above all women on earth; and blessed be the Lord God, who created the heavens and the earth, who has guided you to strike the head of the leader of our enemies.
19 Your hope will never depart from the hearts of men, as they remember the power of God.
and I think the Queen of Batons shepherdess is Rachel:
Genesi 29:9
"While he was still speaking to them, Rachel came with her father's sheep, for she was a shepherdess."
Judith and Rachel also appear among the French (Rouen and Parisian) court designs:
quote:
"Rouen courts are traditionally named as follows: the kings of spades, hearts, diamonds, and clubs are David, Alexander, Caesar, and Charles (Charlemagne), respectively. The knaves (or "jacks"; French "valet") are Hector (prince of Troy), Le Hire (comrade-in-arms to Joan of Arc), Ogier (a knight of Charlemagne), and Judas Maccabeus (who led the Jewish rebellion against the Syrians). The queens are Pallas (warrior goddess; equivalent to the Greek Athena or Roman Minerva), Rachel (biblical mother of Joseph), Argine (the origin of which is obscure), and Judith (from Book of Judith). Parisian tradition uses the same names, but assigns them to different suits: the kings of spades, hearts, diamonds, and clubs are David, Charles, Caesar, and Alexander; the queens are Pallas, Judith, Rachel, and Argine; the knaves are Ogier, Le Hire, Hector, and Judas Maccabee."
The King of Batons, holding the Hand of Justice sceptre that the King of Cups keeps in his wine jug, looks a little drunk to me too!? The drunken king we may see as gluttony or folly perhaps, and the Queens as generosity? In the coins too there is perhaps a dichotomy between the kings vice and queens virtue, forgery v. craft? Theft or usury v. labour?
The Lombardy on the other hand, is not a readable deck for me, I find it cold and uninspiring. The people cards are expressionless and snapshot-like as though they are posing. I like to peruse it occasionally and I still wonder about the rear view of the Cavalieres. I don't hear of anyone else reading with this deck and its rarely mentioned.
I read with that deck fairly often, but I have to be in the right mood. It is a very quiet and understated deck, to me. It also offers full reversibility on every card, which is worthwhile when a clear yes or no answer is needed.
The Seven of Batons in this deck is my absolute favourite. It really is similar in meaning to the RWS but in a far more positive way. I love that the banner under the batons says "born from a single tree but with different destinies".
The ten of Batons, depicting an organ, has a Latin inscription, Dulce auditum, "sweet to hear".
Thanks for the translations sapienza and ihcoyc. As well as ‘Amor’ on the cupid card Moonbow mentions for the sake of completion we may note other inscriptions read:
On the world card
Spring – Primavera - Eagle
Summer - Estate - Lion
Autumn - Autunno - Bull
Winter – Inverno – Angel / Man
I like how the foliage blooms and fruits change around the wreath the indicate the seasons.
Guerra porto (war port?) amor pace (love peace) on the ace of swords
Valor on the two of swords
Ad gloriam dei (for the glory of God) on the Five Cups (with the R of Gloriam inscribed within the O and the e of dei within the D).
Cerulean
20-07-2009, 14:51
Alan, I am doing a similar exercise to you but with the Soprafino, Liguria-Piedmont, and Bologna for studying and comparison, and some readings with the Vacchetta. Its a very readable deck and makes a change from reading with the Marseilles families for me.
The Lombardy on the other hand, is not a readable deck for me, I find it cold and uninspiring. The people cards are expressionless and snapshot-like as though they are posing. I like to peruse it occasionally and I still wonder about the rear view of the Cavalieres. I don't hear of anyone else reading with this deck and its rarely mentioned.
Cerulean says:
I understand about what Moonbow is saying about the above. I was thinking stylistically theminors of the Neoclassical/Ancient Tarots of Lombardy followed the delicate decor of Ace through Four for the Latin-suited style of Hombre/Spanish Cadiz playing card reproductions that I like...known as Barajas to some these days...and the Portugese cards (especially those that influenced Japanese playing cards that became Karuta) that I like. The rear and side view of the 'four caballaros' (Knights) are curiously memorable. I found a Japanese-Portugese set of small period set of rearing knight/soldier Portugese-Japanese illustrations in an online presentation that reminded of such Lombardy/Neoclassical/Latin-suited knights.
But this deck stirred my imagination because the costume of the period of 1806-1811 reminded me of old paintings and a Mannerist art style that was retro-recognizeable in Italianate decorations that I loved. I still think it's a pretty and decorative deck that suggests delicacy and times long past--but it can be pretty bland in comparison to many historic Bolognese patterns.
In a way, the Neoclassical 1806-1811/Ancient Tarots of Lombardy might be a transitional style that reflected when the Milanese area of the Kingdoms within Italy was under Napoleanic influence. You might be right, it's closer and a happier comparison looking at the Ancient Tarot of Bologna/Zoni Tarot with a Milanese-produced Marseilles style like...the Soprafino patterns...and the Lombardy might have some similarities in the majors...but perhaps the minors be more a fit with Latin-suited card patterns?
I'm thinking out loud and likely overstating the differences and similarities from memory...sorry to be a latecomer to this thread.
Best,
Cerulean
and I think the Queen of Batons shepherdess is Rachel
http://spaightwoodgalleries.com/Media/Old_Masters/DeVos%20Heroines/Collaert_DeVos_Rachel2.jpg
"While he was still speaking to them, Rachel came with her father's sheep, for she was a shepherdess." Genesis 29:9
With scene of Jacob with Leah and Rachel in the background.
Genesis 29:16 Now Laban had two daughters: the name of the elder was Leah, and the name of the younger was Rachel.
I was looking at the Queens too, do you think that the Queen of Coins could be Eve? Or is that a bit of a stretch?
Any ideas for the Queen of Cups, a cook or Innkeeper maybe?
Nice work on the translations too Kwaw.
prudence
21-07-2009, 06:47
wow, great images Kwaw. Rachel is quite the sexy lady! (I am trying very hard not to mention her nipples) Her hat is really interesting too.
I thought Kwaw also did relate the Cups Queen to some historical/biblical figure too... I can go check.
I thought Kwaw also did relate the Cups Queen to some historical/biblical figure too... I can go check.
Well, spinning is emblematic of both Eve and Mary, but while there is the association, the biblical figures are more commonly shown with a distaff:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Hunterian_Psalter_c._1170_Eve_spinning.jpg
As for a biblical cook there is the King Nabal's wife abigail? (She prepared food to appease David who had vowed to slaughter all who belonged to Nabal for his insults and unjust behaviour). The drunken King Nabal is struck down by God and Abigail becomes one of the wives of David.
But while Rachel and Judith I think are pretty well certain, I am not convinced the other two queens are biblical figures.
... Abigail made haste, and took two hundred loaves, and two bottles* of wine, and five sheep ready dressed, and five measures of parched corn, and an hundred clusters of raisins, and two hundred cakes of figs, and laid them on asses.
There are no roasted chickens
But she does have a drunken King of a husband...
Kwaw
*The original hebrew is nbl – the name of the King, which has the meaning of 'Fool', also means skin-bag, earthenware jar, cask or pitcher so a better translation would be two wineskin – so there is play on Nabal, Fool and WineSkin - but it also has another meaning of a musical instrument - a harp or lyre giving a connection to David as a musician perhaps, but according to some was considered a type of bag-pipe giving its connection with skin bags, but also a pun on her drunken husbands name Nabal, her 'fool' of a husband was literally a 'wind-bag' given to the ‘wineskin’ and succeeded by the ‘musician’.
It is unlikely the bagpipe was known among biblical jews, the interpretation as such is medieval. Here is an image of a Jewish Haggadah of the 14th century showing a player of bagpipes:
http://www.hotpipes.com/barc.html
The fool we may note in other decks plays the bag-pipes, playing on the connection between fool and bag of wind.