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balenciaga
03-08-2009, 00:53
Is Saturn going to start releasing its grip on Virgos soon? I understand Saturn will still be around for a while, but I notice when I look at long-range astrological forecasts, Jupiter sort of gets involved, and well, things look a little more optimistic.
Am I just being overly-optimistic here? I am a bit tired of Saturn pressing on us for so long.:)

Etoile
06-08-2009, 03:14
Is Saturn going to start releasing its grip on Virgos soon? I understand Saturn will still be around for a while, but I notice when I look at long-range astrological forecasts, Jupiter sort of gets involved, and well, things look a little more optimistic.
Am I just being overly-optimistic here? I am a bit tired of Saturn pressing on us for so long.:)

I hope so--it's been rough on this Virgo lately. I checked astro.com to see if there was any relief in sight and it seems that Saturn is hitting EVERYTHING for me until about September 2010. It looks bad, real bad. And I thought I was through the worst part. Here's hoping your chart looks better than mine! :)

Etoile

Minderwiz
06-08-2009, 05:50
Well Saturn can actually be reasonably dignified in Virgo - it has dignity by Terms. from 18 degrees to 24 degrees. So if your Sun lies in that range then things are not too bad. At the moment Saturn is at 19 degrees 51 Virgo.

It's worse if you are a Virgo Asendant or your Ascendant is Pisces or Sagittarius or Gemini (slightly better if your Moon or Sun is in those signs). Don't forget Sun signs are actually not so important as Ascendants, and are about the same as Moon signs.

Jupiter enters Pisces in January 2010. Now if you use whole sign Aspects (as they did in Hellenistic and Greek Astrology) that would perhaps be of some use as Saturn would receive an opposition from Jupiter in his own sign (Ignore modern stuff about Neptune and Pisces)

However if you have Virgo Ascendant, Moon or Sun then by whole sign Aspects, Jupiter is opposing your Ascendant, Moon or Sun. Now oppositions of Jupiter are not as bad by any means as oppositions from Saturn. But if Jupiter rules an important house in your chart or 6th, 8th or 12th then the results might not be much better or even in some cases worse.

If you go by modern aspects, then it's going to be about April 2010 before it has much effect. Before then Saturn will have moved into Libra at the very end of October this year then stationed retrogade, in January 2010 and then retrograded back into Virgo, at the end of the first week in April 2010. It will station Direct again at the very end of May and move direct into Libra towards the end of July. Jupiter moves into Aries in June 2010.

Bernice
06-08-2009, 06:30
Well Saturn can actually be reasonably dignified in Virgo - it has dignity by Terms. from 18 degrees to 24 degrees. So if your Sun lies in that range then things are not too bad. At the moment Saturn is at 19 degrees 51 Virgo.
Smack on top of my Sun - 2min orb!.

Bee :eek:

Hathor
06-08-2009, 06:49
It has been total hell for me for a long while now. I'm strong, and I have been bearing it, but things are starting to get to me. It's just too much. I hope relief is on it's way soon. Although I know nothing about astrological charts, I knew Saturn is being bad.

Minderwiz
06-08-2009, 07:32
Smack on top of my Sun - 2min orb!.

Bee :eek:

Well Saturn is 'Cazimi' then and in an extremely dignified transit. A good time for learning or creating structures and systems. Of course tomorrow is anothe day LOL

Bernice
06-08-2009, 07:38
Well Saturn is 'Cazimi' then and in an extremely dignified transit. A good time for learning or creating structures and systems. Of course tomorrow is another day LOL
I've not long graduated from crutches, and then two little sticks - now I'm using only one stick.... DON'T tell me I'm not going to chuck it away in the near future :eek: !

Bee :)

Minderwiz
06-08-2009, 08:03
Sadly no, crutches and sticks are very much Saturn, especially if the problem is knees or lower legs.

Hope things are not too serious and that you continue to make measured and steady progress

Bernice
06-08-2009, 08:08
Thank you. (Knee).

Bee :)

franniee
06-08-2009, 08:59
It's a direct hit for me. My sun is at 19 degrees Virgo. :eek:

So far I am fine physically - achy but hey that is nothing new..... but I will be careful.

What does Cazimi mean and what does it mean to have an extremely dignified transit? I am hoping it is all good! LOL

Minderwiz
06-08-2009, 18:57
It's a direct hit for me. My sun is at 19 degrees Virgo. :eek:

So far I am fine physically - achy but hey that is nothing new..... but I will be careful.

What does Cazimi mean and what does it mean to have an extremely dignified transit? I am hoping it is all good! LOL

Cazimi is an accidental dignity (one that depends on the planets position in the horoscope rather than simply it's sign placement). It occurs when a planet is within 17.5 MINUTES of arc from the Sun, that it the conjunction is virtually perfect. It is seen as being a very poweful placement, Lilly scores it as +5, the same score as sign rulership or being on the Ascendant.

The drawback is that immediately before and after Cazimi the planet is combust (which is a debility of equal strength).

Now I might well have been stretching matters in attributing this debility to a transit but as we attribute aspects from transiting planets to natal positions, I don't think I'm stretching matters too much. Allowing my 'stretch' at Saturn's current speed it would be Cazimi for around three days by transit, though an actual Cazimi would be determined by the Sun's motion and, with Saturn, would be about 6 hours.

franniee
06-08-2009, 23:23
Thank you Minderwiz,

Would you explain dignities to me? I looked it up but they confuse me - they confuse me with decans as well and with the tarot.... but since I believe they originate from astrology I would love to finally understand it.... I love the way you explain things.

Thanks,
f

balenciaga
07-08-2009, 01:27
Jupiter in Pisces...pisces the opposite of virgo - great - more dim prospects. Ugh.
Anyhoo, thanks for all the info.

Minderwiz
07-08-2009, 04:14
Would you explain dignities to me? I looked it up but they confuse me - they confuse me with decans as well and with the tarot.... but since I believe they originate from astrology I would love to finally understand it.... I love the way you explain things.

Thanks,
f

We;; if you put it so nicely (blush)

Planets are the actors it's their role to signify the main areas of your life and, to use a card players' phrase, how good a hand you have been dealt. This is shown Astrologically in your natal chart, or any further charts that are cast for you. Before going on to the explanation it's important to bear in mind another card players' rule - it's not just the hand it's the way that you play it, especially in a game of skill. So having really dignified planets doesn't guarantee success not does having a lot of undignified planets mean that you are bound to fail. Indeed many of the great successes have been people who have made a great deal of use of relatively low talent levels.


There are two types of Astrological dignity. The first relates to the planet's sign placement and is called 'Essential Dignity'. The second is related to the planet's chart placement, by relation to the Ascendant (it's house position) to the Sun, and to other planets. These dignities will be chart specifict - the product of the accident or in more modern terminology the event of casting the chart. These days we use the word 'accident' to mean some sort of bad event that we can't control like tripping over something and breaking your favourite china beaker. But the word originally simply meant an event.

There are a numbr of forms of essential dignity, of which 5 are used by traditional Astrologers and two or three by modern Astrologers.

They are:

Rulership - each planet rules a sign, such as Jupiter ruling Pisces. Rulerships were establised a very long time ago well before the discovery of the modern planets, so they just don't have any essential dignity. The sign rulership also says something about whether the planet is benefic or malefic - Jupiter's rulershps are benefic because its signs trine the Sun and Moon respectively. Sagitarius trines the Sun, Pisces trines the Moon. As the trine is the strongest benefic aspect, Jupiter is called the greater benefic. See if you can work out why Saturn is the greater malefic and Mars and Venus the lesser malefic and benefic respectively.

Exaltation - each Planet also has a sign in which it is exalted. This seems to be an even older dignity and it is not quite clear where it comes from. However a general interpretation is that the planet is an 'honlured guest. Planets in exaltation are usually seen as being slightly weaker (though still very strong) than in their rulerships.

The remaining essential rulerships are not used by modern Astrologers,

Triplicity Rulership - the triplicities are Fire, Earth Air and Water (triplicity because there are three signs in each element grouping. Way back in Hellenistic times these were seen as very powerful rulerships but seem to have lost ground during the middle ages.

Terms or Bounds are weak dignities, behind the other three types and there are a number of variants of these

Face or decans are the weakest form of dignity and are in Lilly's explanation little better than being out in the street with no home. They at least indicate a roof over your head.

There are three essential debilities or lack of dignity. Detriment - the opposite sign to rulership, so Jupiter is in detriment in Virgo. Fall the opposite sign to Exaltation and Peregrine - the absence of any dignity at all. The equivalent of being out in the street.

I'll do a separate post for the accidental dignities but if you've got any questions on the essential dignities please ask. Treat the first two as important,. Triplicity as a good thing and the last two as being of limited value.

It's also possible for a planet to have two or more of these dignities at the same time. For example Mercury in Virgo is both Ruler and exalted. It also has term rulership for the first seven degrees.

Minderwiz
07-08-2009, 08:20
Before mentioning accidental dignities I should point out that there are various systems of Triplicity, Terms and Face/Decans. Which is one of the reasons modern Astrologers tend not to use them. it just shows that Astrologers were as much divided on systems as they are today.


Accidental digmities are also used by modern Astrologers, though again there are some that have not made the transition from classical times.

The ones that are generally agreeed by both Traditional and Modern are:

Angularity - placements in the first, tenth, seventh or fourth houses of the chart. Planers conjunct Ascendant, MC, Descendant or IC. are a stronger than placements elsewhere in the 1st, 10th, 7th or 4th.

Conjunction, trine or sextile with Jupiter or Venus (to within a degree)

Traditionally there are other accidental dignities,

Being direct
Being Swift in motion

Being in a favourable relation with the Sun such as
Moon increasing in light
Mercuy and Venus being occidental (setting after the Sun, i,e, evening stars)
Mars Jupiter and Saturn being oriental (Rising before the Sun)
Being free from Combustion
Not being under the beams
Being Cazimi (see previous post above)

and

Being conjunct a favourable Star such as Cor Leonis or Spica (again to within one degree)

There are accidental debilities such as being in the Twelfth, Eightj or Sixth,
Being retrograde
Being in conjunction, opposition or Square to Mars and Saturn
Being slow in motion
Moon decreasing in light
Being Combust
Being under the beams
Being besieged by Saturn and Mars
Being conjunct the Star Caput Algol
Mercury and Venus being oriental
Mars Jupiter and Saturn being occidental

Again there's a lot there but usually you simply use a table to check these through. Modern Astrologers will use Retrograde, usually the 12th, 8th and 6th and a hard aspect to Saturn or Mars

Modern Astrologers will place some emphasis on planets nearing their station or just moving from station (in both cases they are slow) and will use the Station Retrograde as a debility.

The remaining accidental dignities and debilities are rarely used by Modern Astrologers.

Lilly and others provide nice tables of dignities and even have a rough and ready scoring system so that you can assess the overall dignity of a planet. However it is a rough and ready method and not intended to be followed slavishly. However for many modern Astrologers it's too much information.

The basic message is that a planet with accidental dignity is able to play a more direct role. One with accidental debility will find it difficult to gain expression in terms of it's signification.

Now I've tried to cover everything there but that adds to the complexity so it might be easier if you have some specific in mind, such as the decans, so that I can be a little more helpful.

franniee
07-08-2009, 10:05
WOW! Minderwiz! :Heart: Thank you! A lot to digest!


Thank you for the indepth posts! I have to digest them. Might take me awhile - I think it may assume I know more than I do. :laugh:

Although ... my merc is exalted in Virgo - so maybe I think I can handle it! :laugh: (just teasing)

:heart:
f