View Full Version : A Prediction System using precession-corrected Astrology
TOPIC: The Natal Chart.
There are many methods used for prediction in Astrology. The natal chart is the basis for most predictive methods, "natal" or "radix" being applied to both birth charts of people and event charts such as the founding of a nation or the conjunction of two outer planets.
Planets, their natal, progressed/directed, and transiting positions are the key to our chart usage. However we have to keep in mind that our interpretation for a natal, progressed or transiting planet serves us better if "nuanced" for the chart and the type of reading we are doing. I will be utilizing a natal chart, a solar return chart and a type of daily chart. Let us consider some ways in which we may choose to "nuance" the SUN in each of those chart types.
** Natal Sun: Decision making, self-image, exercising your authority, you will, basis of pride, focus, health, a force of integration for other factors in your chart. (These are broad-brush possibilities)
** Solar Return Sun: Seeing others as authorities, recognition confirred, one's attitude and focus, health. (These are short-term considerations)
** Daily Chart Sun: Legal issues, attitude, timing of an event, making a decision. (These are linked to daily events and experiences)
In other words, we go from the broad view and potential describing views of the Sun to more immediate possibilities which can appear in our present life style/context to that day's meanings for the Sun on a personal action or response level. The words you use are your choice, but recognizing this issue of "nuance" will help you describe your chart better.
The interpetive terms I will be using are intended to serve the predictive process. You would use differing terms for each planet, for instance, if you were working with a secondary progression chart which is more "development" focused.
THE NATAL CHART OF CAMILLA, DUTCHESS OF CORNWALL.
Camilla was born on the 17th of July, 1947 at 7:10 am, double daylight time at 000W10, 51N30 in England. Note the following chart positions:
* MC at 12:32 Aries
* ASC at 4 Leo
* Sun at 23 Cancer
* Moon at 10 Cancer
* Mercury at 19 Cancer
* Venus at 10 Cancer
* Mars at 11 Gemini
* Jupiter at 17 Scorpio
* Saturn at 9 Leo
* Uranus at 23 Gemini
* Neptune at 8 Libra
* Pluto at 12 Leo
* N.Node at 1 Gemini
Notable are the following patterns:
* Saturn near the Asc.; quiet or reserved behavior is one characteristic.
* Saturn conj. Pluto; tenacity, following through on plans at any cost.
* Moon conj. Venus in 12th; one who easily loves others, compassion.
* Mercury conj. Sun in 12th; practicality, good mental attitude & processes.
* Neptune near the IC; idealistic about one's home and family, one's dreams.
* Moon-Venus square Neptune, 12th to the 4th; her love life will be subject to some disappointments and expectations that don't work out well. Sadness and moodiness can result from dreams that don't materialize.
These primary patterns are noted because we will later be dealing with cyclic charts in which natal and transiting planets are treated as if they were the same in some cases --- more on that later. From these brief comments, we can see how our public perception of Camilla fits with her chart factors.
With most of her planets grouped within some 70 degrees we are limited in our hard aspects. However, we have other ways to assess her natal chart through the use of phase relationships. There is extensive coverage of these in the archive sections that I wrote several years ago.
* Sun & Moon in Prophet Phase (Moon behind Sun in last 45 degrees); One is always preparing for the future, setting up possibilities, always aligning yourself for something better/different.
* Jupiter & Mercury in Believer Phase (Mercury behind Sun 225 to 270 degrees); One's lifestyle reflects who they honestly are. With closeness of the trine aspect, this suggests an easy manner in reaching out to others and in demonstrating your own ethics and beliefs.
* Mars & Venus in the Performer Phase (0 to 45 degrees); Spontaneous, passionate, will act at a moments notice. (Isn't this interesting considering the first house Saturn/Pluto?).
* Saturn & Moon in the Performer Phase (0 to 45 degrees); One's identity is largely shaped by one's parents, family situation. You need to play the role with charm. In adult life, big adjustments need to be made to free yourself from early family constrictions. (Now we see that Saturn is a testing tool for Camilla to use to shape and define her true identity).
* Saturn & Jupiter in the Activist Phase (90 to 135 degrees); This busines-of-life pair and phase points to the need to struggle to achieve skills and views that carry one forward to one's rewards.
* Uranus & Saturn in the Worker Phase (45 to 90 degrees); Individualization comes from leaving the past behind. A need to fight for "change."
These phase relationships come from the work of Dane Rudhyar and Marc Robertson, although the exact words are my own. These six pairs, as I have stated in the past, provide a short-hand approach to reading natal charts and are recommended strongly for all early-studies students.
These natal planets and patterns will show up in the two types of "cyclic" charts I will be presenting. We will look at a precession-corrected Solar Return chart and two daily charts for Camilla's engagement and wedding.
List members should offer their own views on this chart and ask any questions they may have in terms of how I have viewed this chart.
There are a lot of ways of looking at a natal chart. When I do predictive work, I don't choose to spend hours investigating every detail and possibility in the natal chart --- it just isn't worth the effort because the clients has specific questions. Those questions often relate to only one or a few factors in the chart, there is no need to look at some 1800 factors when it only requires one to spend a minute or two with just those factors pertaining to the question. Not only do you save time, you can also remember a few things very well and can then concentrate on the predictive work.
Questions? Comments? Dave
Thanks for your opening statements on the analysis. Clearly you have a well thought out and organised system for your predictive process. Just one question on the methods. Can this approach to prediction be used if one doesn't take a psychological approach or is that essential to the process?
As is well known we take different approaches to Astrological analysis and this isn't the place to go into that, I only raise it here just to remind members that there are other approaches and therefore the natal analysis might well proceed in a different manner.
I totally agree with your point about the depth of analysis required at this stage, we need to have an overall impression of the person and have some good idea what planets signify in their charts. That is sufficient. Any analysis in more depth comes if and when it's required.
My own observation is that Camilla is a choleric/phlegmatic. She enjoys the limelight, has an urge to be active almost for the sake of it, though there is some restraint to temper it and she can take the odd lazy day and benefit from it. She's a little more reflective, rather than just looking for instant solutions to problems. She can be quite combative and if challenged will not only fight tenaciously but actually quite enjoy it.
Interesting chart features , the conjunction of exalted Venus and Moon in Cancer trining Jupiter. I think this indicates her personal attractiveness and is what Charles fell in love with. However both are moving towards combustion, I guess there are times when the choleric temper overwhelms those nice feminine traits.
Her Mental powers are not her strong suit. Mercury is retrograde, slow in motion and combust. The only good thing is that it's retrograding out of combustion. It may well be her intuition and insticts which are more her guiding force than her logical and rational thought.
Minderwiz, the style of how one approaches a natal chart will determine what they see in related charts. If a client was concerned about the physical condition and their ability to deal in some competitive sport, as an example, we would slant every planet in the chart in some way to relate to responses, strength, stamina, skills, understanding of opponents, etc.
If we were more concerned with an aging person approaching retirement, then we would focus on vitality, stress, conditioning, one's living environment, etc.
I guess we just learn to dance to whatever tune the band plays --- a skill that comes to us as we develop confidence and experience with natal charts and then all of the other stuff we come across.
As we move toward the use of solar returns and daily charts we would continue the theme or style of interpretation that we adopted with the natal chart. Just as their has to be an understanding of the context of how one lives one's life before we try to predict anything, there has to be a consistency in how we manage our charts.
Just as you used one approach at looking at Camilla's natal chart, others might use or want to discuss another style or approach. Perhaps others will advance their interpretation in whole or in part --- or ask that it be brought up for discussion. Dave
Let us assume that Camilla wished to have a chart reading for the purposes of reviewing how she felt about love and marriage as she approached her latter years. Would the strain of Royal life and all of its social obligations, plus the obvious comparisons to Diana's role in the Royal family compared to her past role and potential future role all be too much to deal with? And, what about Charles at his present age. Certainly his expectations of having a comfortable relationship with someone he had known and loved for many years might be placed under pressures from the Queen or others. Would he change, would things be the same but better, or just different? Should she just not worry about anything and get on living her life, their life?
Within this context, how might we choose to address Moon-Venus square Neptune? We might start a conversation about what a warmth she has with domestic settings where she can enjoy the companionship of another so easily and in so many settings --- and then ask her to recall some of her most ideal and favorite times. Did any of these ever lead to a fairytale setting or to a disappointment (Neptune)? We could then explore how she used her chart in intervening years to overcome any negative situations or to enhance her sense of sensitivity and enjoyment from warm friendships under various circumstances.
I don't want to pursue this too far as I prefer to have others ask their own questions or offer their own comments rather than lead them. With the mix of interest and skills on this list, participation is desirable. Dave
OK, I'll refine the question for you. I don't think Camilla's temperament would express itself in quite that form. There's no Melancholy there, so self doubt, depression, feelings of powerlesness, or simply wondering about the point of life. Indeed it's probably the reason that she did not understand Diana and the psychological problems she went through.
However there is a dimension that she might well be concerned with, and that's public acceptance of the marriage. Not because it is intrinsically important to her but because Charles wants to marry her and she had a decision to take. This is a woman with a strong independant streak - (Venus/Hamal connection). She is also deeply conservative, especially in Religious issues (Jupiter conjunct Zuben Elschemali) and a church wedding is not acceptable to the Church of England, as she is a divorcee. So whilst a civil wedding will ilterally legitimise their relationship, it will not confer the religious approval that she would look for in a marriage.
The concentration of personal planets (except Mars) in the twelfth is a great descriptor of her role as a 'mistress', especially a royal mistress. There in the background out of public sight. Now Charles wants to put her in the full public spotlight. Will that change of role gain public acceptance or would she be better keeping to her background role.
So, I'd see her really concerned with the public acceptability of a proposed marriage, especially one which is 'only' a civil one.
Precisely put, Minderwiz. These issues you raise are the very "context" of life that I have beer talking of. As one who lives closer, far closer, to Camilla and the other Royals (in terms of radio, TV, newspapers, magazines and general conversation) you raise valid views and questions. I do not posses those same appreciations of all of the details surrounding that life style and situation.
At this point I had hoped that others would have popped into the conversation and asked about certain aspects of this chart, or offered their own views.
For example, let's look at the difficult Saturn-Pluto in the first house or Saturn being at the mid-point of Mars-Neptune. Difficult personal patterns that might operate in a variety of ways. Saturn would suggest an initial reserve or caution exhibited at first meeting someone (typical interpretation), or more likely, one who has a strategy and method for operating within various types of social settings (a better interpretation, I think). Having a grand-daughter with Pluto on the Ascendant, I know that Pluto can convey an intensity of focus on one's own interests, an insistence on having one's way. Camilla's Pluto would certainly show an appreciation for the levers of power and influence (read as control) that she must have observed all about her in her life. Blend this with being a young woman at a time when there were some social breakouts (the Beatles, Rock & Roll, Twiggey and fashion experimentations) that might have been outwardly dampened in her social circles, and we might start to sense how the desire to be in control of herself could lead to strategies and methods of social intercourse and subtle manipulation.
Then, one might put this into the flow of her long friendship with Charles to better understand this facet of her chart.
Comments or questions from the list. Although I greatly enjoy the dialog with Minderwiz, the purpose here is two-fold. To demonstrate a tool for prediction, and a sharing-learning process for others (and for us). Dave
Hello Dadsnook & Minderwiz,
I'm wondering if Camillas' chart might not spark too much interest. The only really noticable public 'event' is/was her liason and marriage to Prince Charles.
The lives of film stars (well, the ones the media report on) have more widely known events in their lives - and people like Elvis. NOT that I am putting the King forward as a subject!
I could be wrong..... very wrong.....
Bernice, I had picked Camilla because her chart was near the top of the pile of charts that I had collected for my book but had not used. With you and Minderwiz being both moderators and active participants, she seemed to be a reasonable choice to use. I'll be looking at only two dates in her life as a basis for showing how the predictive process can work --- the announcement of her engagement to Charles after so many years of waiting, and the wedding date.
I'll be happy to look at other charts or to comment on other charts once the solar return and those two event-date charts are covered. If you have any subjects and situations in mind, we can even explore a potential situation ahead of time and make this a true "prediction" thread. Dave
Dadsnook: I'll be looking at only two dates in her life as a basis for showing how the predictive process can work --- the announcement of her engagement to Charles after so many years of waiting, and the wedding date.
Ah... I see now. Camillas two most public and formal events. Yep, they should stand out from other less prominent events.
Ignore me - I'm not here. Never meant to interrupt.
Oh keep interrupting Bee, I think Dave would appreciate as many views as he can get.
So we keep to Camilla, as the key issues Dave is considering is a matter of public record and can therefore be checked.
With the bulk of her planets, especially the personal planets, all located in the 11th and 12th house areas of the chart (depending upon the house system you use), is it any wonder that she led a non-public life. Note that 11th house planets fold into ones social circles, friends and associations that one is engaged with. This is not the same thing as being in the public eye, even though one is "out and about." This was a good observation by Bernice.
Camilla's two biggest public events, an engagement and a wedding, is often representative of many people's lives. So many are involved in the "daily drudge of life" that they don't set themselves up for bigger events. Note that she doesn't have a driving T-Square or oppositions.
I'm not sure how relevant this is to Dave's plan of campaign, so please ignore it if it's going to sidetrack you but there is an interesting (to me) relationship to the MC. Mars, its ruler, sextiles it by 10 minutes of arc, whilst first house Saturn trines the MC (1.5 degrees) and also sextiles Mars (22 minutes). This seems to suggest a reasonably comfortable handling of a career (and more traditionally 'honours' - which may be very relevant in this case).
This 'comfortable' relationship is at odds, with the Moon/Venus square to the MC (1 degree 24 minutes) All aspects are applying. As well as being her Sun ruler, the Moon is often a significator of the 'public'. So this might be an indicator of possible public antipathy to the 'honour'.
One last point, for information. I didn't explain how I identified the Choleric/Phlegmatic temperament. There are a number of approaches to calculating temperament, indeed each Astrologer seemed to have his own varient on the theme, rather like modern Astrologers and character assessment.
I used two approaches. The first was one by Dorian Greebaum, as explained in her book on Temperament, the second a simpified varient on John Frawley's attempt to explain Lilly.
Both approaches use Ascendant, Sun and Moon as the key factors, though Frawley's approach adds in the Lord or Lady of the Geniture (planet with most dignity in the chart). Temperament assessment is very similar to the modern use of elements to establish a balance, except that it uses far fewer components. Many modern writers will use all 9 Planets and the planetoid Pluto, plus the MC and Ascendant.
Greenbaum has a scoring system out of 10.
The Ascendant sign scores 2 points,
The Ascendant ruler 1 point,
The Ascendant Almuten 1 point,
The Moon sign 2 points
The Moon ruler 1 point
The Moon phase 1 point
The Sun phase (season of birth) 2 points
Frawley's system is equally weighted and uses
Sun Phase (season)
Lord/Lady of the Geniture.
Under both systems Camilla is Choleric 60%, Phlegmatic (40%) There is no melancholy or sanguinity (which explains the 'black and whilte' approach she may have to life)
First, there are a number of way of reading charts, either any specific chart or a set of related charts --- as I will be doing as part of this exercise. While I will not be using anything other than the basic planet meanings and cyclic charts in which the angles provide the focus, others may choose to use any style they wish.
I would caution everyone, however, on the value of simplicity. Once you add a large number of componets to the chart, or utilize a wide variety of methods, then you start to lose control over your understanding of the chart. The word is SIMPLICTY, especially when you are starting out with something new.
Second, I am jpoping that list participants come forward and say, "You didn't mention this or that." I have not address most of the chart patterns and interesting points of Camilla's birth chart just so that others could find a reason for entering the dialog with comments or questions. Involvement can be a great teacher for all involved.
The contradictions are actually the key to understanding any person or chart. These have to resolved in some way by the person who lives them! We need to address them in order to learn astrology. What seems odd to you about this chart? Dave
Something interesting (to me) about Camilla having her personal planets in the 12th house. We know that Houses are 'man-made' yet in this case it seems to be a rather telling feature re. Camilla. As you've pointed out, she has a very low public profile.
Minderwiz: Under both systems Camilla is Choleric 60%, Phlegmatic (40%) There is no melancholy or sanguinity (which explains the 'black and whilte' approach she may have to life)
No melancholy or sanguinity! Poor soul, missing out on the deep depths & the dizzy heights. But perhaps there's compensatory factors in other aspects/areas.
What seems odd to you about this chart? Dave
I'm not sure whether you meant this as a question for response, or a link to your next post, in which you reveal what you think is odd.
We know that Houses are 'man-made' yet in this case it seems to be a rather telling feature re. Camilla.
Well the whole fabric of Astrological analysis is in a very real sense man made. I've not tried all the house systems but all that I have tried, including whole sign houses have the same 12th House emphasis. The 'hidden' is only one of many things associated with the 12th, but as I said in a previous post, it's almost a classic royal misstress, with Mercury Venus, Sun and Moon, all in the twelfth.
It might be helpful if we had a copy of the chart for Camilla, so I've attached one to this post. Personally I find it difficult to visualise a chart from a set of positions, (I know I shouldn't but I just do LOL). So I'm guessing there are others who share my challenge.
Having the chart available will make it easier to follow Dave's analysis and when he gets to the Solar Return chart, I'll post a copy of that to, unless he is able to do it from his end.
A couple of observations for those who decide to, or have researched Camilla.
English birth certificates do not carry the time of birth, so quoted times need to be checked. If it's a friend or family this is relatively easy, if it's a client they can be asked but in such cases as this, we are dependent on biographers or reported comments in interviews.
Dave's time seems to me to be the most likely one and certainly one that I would use. However, I have seen some variations. Liz Greene uses a birth time of 7:00 am, ten minutes earlier. Such a round time always raises a big question mark with me - it's almost certainly an approximate time. The ten past seven timing may be a better report or it may be the result of someone 'rectifying' the chart to get a time more consistent with life's events.
Even worse, I've seen a time of 9:00 a.m. quoted. This seems to be a clear issue to do with the daylight saving adjustment and indeed I have seen one quote of the biirth time as 7:00 GMT. These quoted times appear to come from 'foreign' sites and I would take them as being erroneous. Ten minutes will not make a lot of difference (unless you are using primary directions) but two hours clearly will.
The other observation here relates to the place of birth. The co-ordinates given by Dave are also used by Liz Greene. However Liz also quotes the exact same co-ordinates for Prince Charles and, as he was born in Buckingham Palace, we know that they were not born in the same place. Indeed the quoted co-ordinates are Montpelier Square in Londo and I doubt Camilla was born there. Again there's some approximation. However each 1.15 miles (1.85km) east or west changes the longitude by 1 minute of arc.
Again this is not really a problem if the actual birth is close to the co-ordinates but I have seen a claim that Camilla was born in Plumpton in East Sussex and this would alter both latitude and longitude significantly. I don't think this location is at all accurate but she did spend her childhood there.
THANKYOU for the chart - especially one without those dreadful aspect lines. :love:
In this predictive system the emphasis is on "cyclic" charts. While an accurate birth time and location are always important, any inaccuracy that throws off a solar return or the daily charts by a degree or two isn't all that important, nor is a shift in solar return or living location by several miles --- such as 20 or 30 miles. This may be difficult to appreciate now, but the future posts/charts will certainly bear this out.
Sidereal astrologers insist on working with "partile" aspects and contacts with the angles of a chart ---- this requires high accuracy. Ufortunately for their cause of converting others to their way of thinking, this is not required except for mundane charts. Daily chart angles change by 1.25 or even more degrees per day. When we are looking to "predict" the likely timing of a possible event or experience, being one or two degrees off may reflect in a days error in time.
Given that most astrologers can't predict at all or very well or consistently, being off by a day seems quite reasonable to me.
I'm off to take the kids to a water park to keep them cool and happy, so I won't be posting for today. If there are any questions about Camilla's natal chart, please post them. It is important to "know" the natal chart in order to be able to predict. Dave
A little earlier Dave asked for comment on what Saturn in the first might mean, and gave some possibilities,, such as initial reserve or caution, or a planned approach to social situations. Dave also asked for other possible meanings. So I'd offer the following observations:
Saturn as a malefic in detriment might also suggest physical problems. Traditional Astrology doesn't distinguish between the mind and body, and the first house represents both.
However, more interestingly, Saturn is also the Seventh House ruler, and of course marriage is a seventh House issue. So Saturn may well have a lot of relevance in Camilla's marriages and relationships. A possible interpretation of the ruler of the Seventh in the first might be that he (the partner) is in love with her but is vulnerable as a result.
Interestingly Charles met Camilla in 1970 and though the relationship seemed (and probably was) successful at the time, he seemed to decide not to propose. There's some suggestion that he was advised against it because she wasn't seen as the 'right person' by court circles. I don't know whether this is true but it does suggest the reason he didn't pursue the relationship was because it might make him vulnerable. IF Charles, is signified by Saturn it also suggests it's him, rather than her, that was over cautious. In the event Charles went on naval duties and seemingly didn't ask her to wait for him. In 1973 Camilla married Andrew Parker Bowles.
The configuration of Saturn, Mars and the MC, could also be interpreted as signifying that marriage or her partner, would bring her into the public domain (the tenth is also the House of the King/Queen and the monarchy). Indeed the revelations of his relationship with her are what brought her into the public domain and led to his (and her) divorce.
Now again, like Dave's suggestions, those are only possible ways of reading Saturn in her natal chart, and in the context of questions relating to her matrimony. For other questions, Saturn's signification may well be different.
It might at some stage be worth looking at her Greek 'Lots' of marriage but that is something for later on
It is my impression, here on the other side of the pond, that Charles was discourage from enhancing his relationship with Camilla by making it overly public or by considering marriage. The Queen had seemingly set very high standards for the Royal family and its image and position in Britain, and in those earlier years Charles seemed to be constrained in many ways.
He was interested in doing something in his life that was "substantive" and had ideas about starting a business, of doing things worthwhile. As I understand it, he was discouraged in many ways. The choice of young Diana, compared to his age, was a bit of an age/personality mismatch to say the least, and was representative of how his life was influenced and managed by others.
At this recent point of marrying Camilla, I believe that Charles decided that he had to make his own choices. Afterall, many of the other Royals had, by that time, done their best to trash the image that the Queen had hoped to maintain. They proved to be as human and natural as the rest of us. So, Charles made his move (bless him, at last). The family returns home later today, so I'll have time to go into the chart and the predictive process more. Dave
Interestingly Charles met Camilla in 1970 and though the relationship seemed (and probably was) successful at the time, he seemed to decide not to propose. There's some suggestion that he was advised against it because she wasn't seen as the 'right person' by court circles. I don't know whether this is true
I'm not a a royal watcher LOL but as far as I'm aware Charles has never said that he was pressured not to marry Camilla, first time round. I was therefore very careful in the way that I phrased the comment. Certainly the 'popular' view was that he was dissuaded from marrrying her. It's possible to speculate on the reasons for this, one possible being that she is descended from the last mistress of Edward VII and that was a little too close for comfort in genealogical terms.
Alegedly the realtionship continued through her marriage up to the point of his marriage with Diana, and then resumed again within a short period. Also it's not unreasonable to suggest that she and her first husband both had long standing affairs within their marriage - she of course, with Charles.
Again I hesitate to put forward anything with a degree of certainty, but it's not unknown for mistresses of UK royals (and indeed royals in general) to enter marriages of convenience. There were certainly children from the marriage but it does seem that the royal advisors were content for Charles to continue his relationship in a non public way.
After Diana's death it seems that Princes William and Harry were instrumental in bringing Camilla 'in from the cold'.
What ever the case, I think for this exercise the Astrological interpretation I gave above is probably a reasonable one in terms of the role of Saturn.
I think the last few posts have perhaps highlighted the issues surrounding the marriage in 2005 and would provide a useful context for Dave's next steps. Other features of her nativity can be brought in as, and when, relevant.
In my predictive process (which is a variant of the basic approach developed by Irish astrologer Cyril Fagan, et al), I use precession corrected Solar Return charts. Before we go into Camilla's Solar Return prior to her engagement and marriage we need to fully understand the relationship between the solar return chart and the natal chart, the the reasons for and the results of correcting for precession, among other things.
THE MC-SOLAR CYCLE
Cast a solar return chart for yourself, for last year. Now, cast a solar return chart for yourself for this year. Compare the charts. The Sun is at the same sign-degree-minute-second position but is located in a different house, about 3 houses further away. The MC, on the other hand, is neither in the same sign or in the same degree. It has advanced about three signs from where it was, causing the Sun to appear about three houses from where it was, clockwise.
This happens with Tropical, Sidereal, or precession-corrected Tropical solar returns. The quarter-of-the-zodiac shift in the Earth's rotation relates to the extra quarter-day we accumulate year year and save up for leap-year which occurs every 4 years.
The only reason, without getting into a book-length expanations, for using the Sidereal Zodiac or using precession-correction for the Tropical Zodiac usage in solar return charts boils down to one thing --- ACCURACY IN THAT CYCLIC CHARTS ARE MORE "CORRECT" OR "INTERPRETIVELY APPROPRIATE" when the conventional tropical solar return is not used and the precession corrected tropical solar return (or sidereal solar return) is used.
So, accepting this, the MC is progressed 450 degrees each year; 360 degrees as shown in the daily advance value printed in an ephemeris, plus 90 degrees for the added quarter-day. The Sun advances 360 degrees. This amount of change in a solar return occurs every year from one's birth onward.
This regular repetitive positioning is therefore measured and marked in each solar return. THIS IS A CYCLE, A CONTINUOUS AND REPETITIVE CYCLE. We need to understand this cycle and how it helps us "predict."
** Half-way (six months) through the year, the Sun has advanced 180 degrees or six signs. The MC has progressed half of 450 degrees or 225 degrees which is about 7 1/2 signs.
** At about 4 months, 3 weeks after our birthday, the MC has advanced about 6 signs or 180 degrees, the Sun has advanced only some 140 degrees.
** At about 9 months, 2 weeks after our birthday, the MC has advanced 360 degrees, returning to its prior s/r MC position. The Sun has advanced about 9 1/2 signs or 285 degrees.
We will be using this MC-Solar Cycle more when we base our daily charts on it to determine the daily MC and Asc. angles of the daily charts.
THE P.C. SOLAR RETURN
This chart is not, like the natal chart, one's potential. Instead, the S/R chart is this year's focus on potential that can be expressed and developed.
When we cast a p.c. S/R chart, we look to the angles of the chart to see which transiting and natal planets are near the angles. These are the planets that we will use this coming year to frame our expression of our potential. Obviously, using the portions of the chart that are within 6 or 8 degrees of the angles, generally speaking, only permits an average 1/7th of the chart to be "focused" on. In the coming posts we will see how this works out.
THE 2004 P.C. SOLAR RETURN OF CAMILLA BOWLES.
This s/r chart occurred on July 16, 2004, UT 19h48m38s, using the natal location.
* MC at 23:33 Scorpio
* ASC at 19:04 Capricorn
* SUN at 23:47 Cancer, based on a prec'n corr'n factor of 0d:48m.
* MOON at 16:37 Cancer
* Mercury at 18 Leo
* Venus at 13 Gemini
* Mars at 13 Leo
* Jupiter at 15 Virgo
* Saturn at 17 Cancer
* Uranus at 5 Pisces
* Neptune at 13 Aquarius
* Pluto at 19 Sag.
* N.Node at 7 Taurus.
WHAT NEEDS TO BE DONE NOW
First, we can prevail upon Minderwiz to post a representation of this S/R chart in bi-wheel form, the S/R angles being positioned appropriately, with the natal chart being shown on the inside, the natal MC being positioned in the 3rd house area and the natal Asc. being position in the 7th house area. If this cannot be done, then each of you need to draw the above chart and place the natal chart within it with corresponding sign-degree placements.
Second, you need to look at the p.c. S/R chart and see which natal and transiting planets are close to the angles. We will take some time to look at and to familiarize ourselves with this chart. Ask yourself:
** Which transiting planets appear to be angular?
** Which natal planets appear to be angular?
** Which transiting planets are closely conjuncting natal planets which are not angular in this chart?
We'll talk in several hours. Dave
Ok Dave, I'll see if I can do that. I have about three software packages that I use but I rather suspect that they will want to use the angles for the inner chart on a bi-wheel.
I'll have a play and see what I can do.
thanks for the work you both have , and will continue to put in, am enjoying the thread.
I think Camilla is an ideal subject because she unlike diana is more of a closed book and it makes her more interesting to me then diana
Minderwiz, if you cannot set up a chart that way (I can't with my software, either), I'll manually do one with a draw-program. For teaching purposes, it is easier to be able to see the S/R angles and planets on the outside as those planets are really transits-for-the-day. The natal chart on the inside with the angles and planets rotated to suit the S/R chart provides a mindset that gives us a fresh look at ourselves. Dave.
Ok I've had a play.
I used two programs to generate out the precession corrected Solar Return; Solar Fire 6 and AstrolDeluxe Report Writer. In both cases I got charts with some (small) differences from Dave's figures Both agreed the time to within a few seconds of Dave's figure (indeed AstrolDeluxe was only 4 seconds different).
However there were differences in Sun and Moon placements, and the MC and ASC. (I'll ignore the others). The Sun placement was 47 minutes and 50 seconds of arc different (24 Capricorn, 35 mins and 19 seconds). Now this difference from Dave's (and the natal position) is caused by precession SINCE Camilla's birth. Precession is continuous and does not stop when someone is born and in 2004 she was 57, as precession is at a rate of approximately 1 degree every 72 years a rough and ready calculation suggests a precession of 47.5 minutes of arc which agrees with the discrepency. Now I'm sure that Dave has very good reasons for using the figures he gave and these may well be due to my software calculating precession adjusted solar returns in a different way. I don't think it's an Ayanamsa effect as the precession is measured from Camilla's birth but Dave may we disabuse me of such simplistic thinking.
Now I have no way of adjusting the chart to reflect the values given by Dave and I cannot perform the chart manipulation he requires in terms of a bi-wheel (at least not without some research into the deeper recesses of SF's chart features).
So I'm attaching a bi-wheel of what I have obtained. This uses the angles of the Solar Return but has the natal details in the outer ring. The natal ASC and MC are marked.
I suggest that it's used as a guide only to try and follow the import of what Dave has to say.
After reading Minderwiz's earlier reply, I expected that he would have trouble with the inner-outer chart placements and the p.c. factors which affects the timing and angles and positions. So, I have created a drawing program version of the chart as I wish to use it --- see the attachment.
I was hoping to discover a program that would create astrology charts the way I like to use them. So, packaged software really isn't that flexible, yet, is it?
Viewers will note that I have added a feature that none of you are likely to be familiar with. There is a point in both the Solar Return and the Natal chart that is labeled "CD" or Co-Descendant. This point, in terms of its arc-distance from the MC, is identical to the arc-distance between the Asc. and MC. IN EFFECT, THIS MAKES THE MC THE MID-POINT BETWEEN THE ASC. AND THE CD POINT.
The CD represents a point where life or outside forces seem to intrude into your life unasked for and unwanted in most cases. It is a mirror image of the Ascendant, not in polarity but in equal-arc distance from the MC, and represents the personality or other person's actions. This was not introduced in the natal chart, but it will have some limited usage in our discussions to come.
Again, look at this chart and become familiar with it. Thanks Minderwiz for your efforts. I use the freeware program Riyal3 for Windows, developed by Juan Revilla of Costa Rica. It may be the most positionally accurate and comprehensive program available from the freeware sectior. Dave
Dave perhaps you would clear up my confusion on the Sun position in your SR chart against those produced by SF6 and AstrolDeluxe (which I know you also use)
Specifically why is the Sun over a degree different (earlier) from the software generated charts. I'm sure it muist be so for a very good reason but you did not address it in your post above, For anyone attempting to reproduce the steps in your analysis, it's important that they know why the positions are different from what they get in using a precessed SR return option.
My view of the difference is that you are reversing the precession that a standard software program would do, i.e. you are saying that the tropical point 23 degrees 47 Cancer has precessed back to 23 degrees 17 sidereally - using Camilla's birth as the zero point for precession. The software programs on the other hand are giving 24 degrees 35 minutes as the tropical point that the Sun would have to return to in order to allow for precession. am I correct or have you some other rationale?
As someone whose spent a few hours trying to reconcile a chart presented using a sidereal zodiac (krishnamurti Ayanamsa) with a calculation in tropical longitude presented by the same author I can testify to brain ache if the explanation is not easy to follow LOL.
I don't often use Astrodelux when doing prediction charts, instead I use Riyal. The position that program produces for Camilla's Sun is 23.47 Cancer. When using precession correction, Riyal uses the p.c. Sun position for the "return" chart and "corrects" the natal chart Sun to be the same so that aspectual relationships are accurately shown. If I use Astrodelux, or other standard programs, they show the natal Sun at a different degree location than is the current (precession-corrected) Sun ---- a sort of funny-peculiar situation.
In my charts, I also drop the minutes and seconds and sometimes just round-up the value if it is 56 or 57 or 58 minutes plus its degree value. As I noted earlier, as long as the fundamental chart calculations are correct, the actual degree values or accuracy or closeness is of little importance. Just using DEGREE values is plenty good enough. This simplistic approach permits us to concentrate on the planet and its chart placement and aspects rather than on the details that clutter everything up.
I will have to run an AstroDelux chart in order to see the numbers/values you are refering to. I can't run that program up here at the vacation home. You should see that using a Tropical Zodiac chart that you get one value for the natal chart, and that when you run a Sidereal S/R using the Tropical Zodiac position that you get a precession-corrected chart with the Sun placed at the natal-plus-47-minutes position in this second chart.
In a Sidereal Zodiac, the given Sun positions would be some 25 degrees earlier in another sign. If you are refering to the precession correction factor, then that value is 0 degrees 48 minutes for Camilla's 2004 Solar Return. This is the difference you should see in an AstroDelux (or other chart program) between the natal position and the precession-correction position of the Sun. Let's first see if this works out before we go further. Dave
Yes indeed, as I stated in my previous post 48 minutes is the difference I get.
My point was that 23 degrees 47 Cancer has sidereally precessed by 48 minutes and to return to the 'same' place, correcting for this precession, the Sun must return to 24 degrees 35 minute tropical. (Current in 2004).
Now I can't comment on your software's calculation as I don't have it. Given that you say the 'difference' is unimportant for your process, I don't think it's worth devoting a long discussion to. Other followers of the thread should simply bear in mind that any attempt to replicate your calculations is not possible unless they download the program you mention.
Just one comment on the Co-Descendant, for those who have not met such points before, Dave's calculation, though not mainstream, lies in a tradition that can be traced back to Hellenistic times, if not beyond. The process of taking the difference between two points, and then projecting it from a third (or even one of the two) can be found in the Greek Lots.
I have just calculated the natal chart for Camilla using a program that does not do precession-correction and which does not do solar returns. This program gives me the same degree-minutes value as the precession-corrected value. I'm not yet sure in my mind what is wrong. I've got to go play with program settings. I did have a bad set of viruses last week (over 300) left by my granddaughter when she was visiting and have had to install a anti-virus program and re-set my computer to an earlier date to get rid of most of the junk she left. I've lost some system files and should restore the computer from scratch. So, I better check this vacation computer before I go further. Dave
Are you using Riyal?
I've had to re-caluclate it. The Long & Lat are round the wrong way...What I mean is, the entry box for the Long has the letter "w" (for west) - it should be N or S.
My natal chart has come up correctly now.
OK Dave hope you get sorted out, as there's nothing worse than multiple virus infections.
Checking back to your list post of positions in the SR for 2004, the Sun's position is given exactly as the natal position, so there's no precession correction at all. I actually looked at the chart you posted for the SR position and on second sight it is because you have simply given the degrees that I misread your chart as Sun 23 17 (the 17 beeing the position of Saturn).
It appears that the planets are all out by about a degree from the SF6 version of events all in the same direction, including Pluto. Don't know if that helps in your checks.
I've just downloaded and run Riyal 3. There's not problem with your computer, you're just not reading the table correctly LOL.
The print out of the pc Solar Return gives the figures you quoted in your post BUT it also tells you that the pc is 48 minutes (as we calculated earlier) and that value has to be ADDED to the quoted positions to convert back to the tropical zodiac.
I've not played with any of the other features but it agrees with the figures from SF6 and AstrolDeluxe when you add that 48 minutes.
Yes, I've talked with Juan Revilla. Riyal "siderealizes" the natal chart and takes its Sun position, using the Tropical zodiac, and treats it as a Sidereal position. Then, any following Solar Return chart is calculated to match that position. The precession factor noted in Riyal's planet data table is, indeed, what we have to add back to the Sun's position to return the Sun to its standard Tropical position. As you point out the charts are right.
The grandkids were hogging the computer since just after I took them and the dog out for ice cream cones, so now, after 11 pm, I get the computer back. In the morning I'll start to lay out the interpretive process which will be different from typical solar return analysis given in most books.
You certainly are working during your vacation - kids by day and us by night LOL
Take your time and make sure you get some enjoyment as well :)
Some observations on the SR chart,
Dave will rightly make a lot of use of the angular focus on the Descendant and I'll leave that to him, but points he might not make are:
The SR Moon is partile conjunct SR Saturn. Now that might be taken as a bad thing but remember that natally, Saturn rules the Seventh house of marriage and traditionally the Moon was a significator of marriage, oth planets are also conjunct the seventh cusp. (Descendant), which the Moon rules. Saturn is also ruler of the SR Ascendant, emphasising it's importance here. The partile union of the Ascendant and Descendant rulers is an excellent symbol of a forthcoming marriage.
Further evidence of the focus on marriage is the natal Ascendant in the seventh and of course natal Sun, Saturn and part of fortune in the Seventh. Now I'm not making an awful lot of that as these planets relative positions to each other are fixed natally and if one of them is in the SR seventh there's a very good chance the rest are.
The SR Saturn is 'beseiged' by SR Moon and Sun. Beseigement can be beneficial if the two adjacent planets are benefic, and in this case they are, any harmful effects Saturn might carry are mitigated.
Mars ruler of the natal MC is also in the SR seventh house, a possible indicator of an affect on her social/professional situation.
Solar Returns have features that are not commonly recognized by astrologers.
First is the fact that the MC-Solar Cycle, its beginning defined by our birth time and location, is at play here --- the cycle being attuned to the return of the Sun to its original Earth-Sun-Stars alignment.
Second is the fact that the Solar Return chart represents TRANSIT positions at the time the Sun is "reborn." This conveys a sort of mini-birth or transitory birth influence upon the original natal imprint. When one places the natal chart within the solar return chart, certain "emphasis" points will be noticed.
Third is the fact that the birth MC may be emphasized in a Solar Return chart. If it is, by virtue of being at the s/r MC position, then one's life is likely to take on a whole new set of conditions and potentials! A third of the time, this MC to MC return will be positive, one third of the time it will be quite negative, and the remaining third of the time it will just represent "change" ---- and "change" is always/mostly uncomfortable.
If the natal MC is instead located at/near another s/r chart angle, then the birth MC's interpretive meaning is likely to be significantly expressed thru the meaning of the angle it is at. When we start to work with daily progressed charts we will discover that the natal MC makes many contacts to the daily angles over the course of a year.
INTERPRETING THIS SOLAR RETURN
We notice that the Descendant angle is heavily populated, most notably by the natal and return Suns being within 4 degrees of opposing the Ascendant. Using my book interpretations, in part: "How should one work with partners, structure, agreements?" We have natal Mercury near natal Sun, also: "Common sense is required. Changes in the family? Business success."
With transiting Moon and Saturn close by, we have to consider: (Moon) "Husband and wife activities, partner harmony. If negative factors are involved, then disputes may arise." Saturn might provide the negative factors: "Sticking with a plan, Persistence needed. Taking a solitary approach." With all of these factors being focused by the Descendant angle, the appropriateness of this chart seems to be quite definite.
The above given interpretations are from my book which is designed to serve many uses, so we would need to parse out those things that not applicable. BUT WAIT! Before you throw out anything, consider how it might actually apply to the whole picture, and don't "cherry-pick" the statements that fit what you think should be found in the chart.
Let's look at Saturn in this chart. Saturn is angular, it is important. Natal Saturn is in the 7th, and it conjuncts Pluto. How does Saturn-Pluto play into this picture. Remember that in earlier postings, I had noted this pairing and had suggested that someone might want to examine it more. Nobody did. So, we will look at it now. This pair represents a hard struggle over time. With both natal Saturn and transiting Saturn at/near the 7th house area, this sense of persistance over time has to enter the picture, given the history of these two people.
But, there is more. Note that transiting Pluto is at/close to the natal CD angle. My book notes, for this situation: "Life is likely to contain 'controling' factors, upsets in family structure, threats as a means to hold your attention, encouragement to change to someone else's beliefs." What is at play here seems to be pressure to conform or react to the influences of others in the manner that one had become accustomed to as part of the natal chart potential and general life experience. At this stage of her life, Camilla has lots of experience in dealing with social controls and the levers of power and has certainly developed her own weapons against the intrusions of others. I suspect that this stage of her life, and her marriage, was just an example of her taking charge of her own life and happiness.
The lesson here is that although each angle has a particular meaning, at another level "any angle is any angle." We need to consider, in this chart, that Sun/n, Sun/t, Mercury/n, Moon/n, Moon/t,Saturn/t, Saturn/n, Pluto/n and Pluto/t are all angular and all related to the 7th house or to those who intrude into our 7th house (the natal CD point). All of this defines our chart.
MEETING AND TALKING WITH CAMILLA
Within a dialog with Camilla, as a client, we would first of all note her active Descendant angle and inquire about the difficulties and choices (Saturn, Pluto) she has been experiencing relative to a relationship. With the strong Sun/Moon contacts, we would tell her that we are assuming that plans may be underway for a marriage, or less-likely but possible, a partnership. This would get the conversation going, her life context would be determined, and then more guided questions and observations would occur.
I won't go into the possible questions and answers here as it would all be a supposition on our part given that we do not collectively know enough about her private life to pursue anything useful. BUT, she would want to talk about the impending engagement and its announcement, as well as the marriage to follow. When are the likely dates, what might be involved at that time?
Note this last question involving "when" and "what". Using conventional astrology (natal chart and transits) one might expect to be able to find the "when." Could many determine the "what" ---- the issues that would surround the events at those times and how they might be responded to?
MORE ABOUT P.C. SOLAR RETURN CHARTS AND THE MC-SOLAR CYCLE.
Some tropical zodiac astrologers use a number of methods to determine the "timing" of events that see as being contained within a solar return chart. They may use the sign/house position of the s/r Moon, or progress the Moon by some rate to see when it hits another s/r planet. Many astrologers have, over the centuries, listed in order of importance the many factors that one should consider. This is rigid and tedious to follow.
Remember, the natal chart is one's life potential and a growth blue-print. The solar return is a theme for the year, an emphasis on portions of the natal chart that can be experienced in one way or antoher in the coming year. I use the MC-Solar Cycle to generate daily charts; this cycle progresses the MC about 1.25 degrees per day (the 450 or so degrees between one s/r MC position and the next s/r MC position, proportioned to the number of days (for an event) between the S/R date and the event date being investigated. There is software available to do this, as well as there being simple look-up tables to help you calculate dates and the advance of angles.
Although not pertinent to Camilla's charts, the MC progresses to its opposite sign-degree point in about 4 months and 3 weeks, and returns to its S/R position in about 9 months and 2 weeks. (Doesn't that time-period seem very familiar?) At the half way point, one often experiences a crises related to what the S/R promised. At the completion point, one often resolves the meaning of the S/R chart and any crises implied or experienced.
For example, I often take a vacation in early February (my Birthday is 4 months and 3 weeks earlier on Sept. 13th) so as to lessen any crises or pressure points that might arise. At the end of June and start of July I often gain some benefit from the events that transpire. So, I used to get fired from jobs or fight with the wife in February until I smartened up. Then, I used to take new jobs at the end of June or win promotions then with great regularity. Of course, I'd set up projects to be finished just before those dates so as to alleviate tensions and deadlines and to also reap the attention during the late June favorable period. This is called using astrology for one's own benefit.
Do you feel cheated that Camilla's solar return chart was treated so simply? Could you trust yourself enough to hang a blind interpretation, for example for a Internet client who gave you no useful information, on these symbols?
What I have developed-and-or-use is a system of chart timing, a method of chart presentation, a concept of angular meanings and angle-to-angle meanings (when they are present) and planets-at-angles meanings, plus the use of daily progressed angles charts (which we will examine later) using the same tools as used for the solar return chart except that the interpretations are more nuanced for a daily experience rather than a yearly theme or a life long potential.
Comments, questions? Dave
Thanks for your explanation Dave.
I do have some comments and issues to raise, but if anyone thinks I'm going to fundamentally disagree with you then they are going to be sorely disappointed.
Following my download of Riyal 3 I can see 'how' you obtain your daily charts and a quick test against Solar Fire shows that SF's Progressed Solar Return option gives very similar results in terms of progressed SR MC/natal planets/transiting planets/SR planets and indeed any generated chart such as lunar returns or profections. So I have answered my own first question, 'Can this method be used in a traditional process of forecasting. The answer is Yes!!
Now that use might not be the way that you use it, but in a real sense that's all to the good because the method can be used independant of the interepretational framework.
Now from what you said above you are much more interested in the psychological issues surrounding events, and the conclusions you draw are clearly based on that interest but the second question I wanted to see answered, you haven't actually done.
How would you use your system to identify when and indeed if Camilla was going to take the step of announcing her engagement and moving from the private to the public or would that not be the sort of prediction that you are interested in.?
Now I think your method can be used to do that and very accurately but I would be interested in your views on it's use for that purpose and indeed using the method what date you would predict using it,
When you've responded I'll give my view using a slight variation of the method but I'm hoping that your prediction will be the same as mine and that that result will show the validity of the method.
While Solar Fire may yield a correct Solar Return chart, that program does not, according to those who use it, correctly generate the progressed daily charts due to the fact that Solar Fire rounds off the proportional value. Instead of a daily value of 4 minutes and (perhaps) 57 seconds, Solar Fire rounds up to a value of 5 minutes, throwing off the timing of charts by 4 or 5 days time after several months.
The Solar Return chart is, in itself, not generally the fine-tuning timing tool for prediction, but merely the stage setter for that years theme and focus. While Camilla's 2004 Solar Return suggests a marriage or some form of partnership, it tells us little in terms of "when" and "how/what" definitions.
As a reminder of how we need to "nuance" the meaning of planets, let's look at Saturn which is so important in this 2004 S/R chart.
** Natal SATURN in the first house: Quiet or reserved behavior, somber attitude.
** S/R SATURN in the seventh house/descendant angle: Cautious in making friends, business-like in partnerships.
** Prog'd Daily Angle SATURN in the 10th house or MC angle (as we will see in the Engagement chart, later): Complaints arise, conditions imposed, overburdened conditions.
What we see in these "generalized book statements" is a general personality statement in the natal Saturn, a situational approach to how one conducts themselves in the present S/R period, and a daily/action/attitude statement in the Progressed Daily Angles chart about how one acts or responds to others at that time. There had to be a lot of negotiations about what was said to the press, how it was said, and how much information would be given or held-back, all indicative of Saturn and the control functions it symbolizes.
Now, Saturn will not be the only factor when we get around to looking at the future daily charts, but this example should address your question, Minderwiz, about the "how", the "why" and the "what" of that days experience or announcement. In other words, the interpretive words used changes depending upon the type of chart and the type of angle and the nature of natal and transiting patterns that are involved. To this point, we have touched on only a very few of these many factors.
I'll look for questions and comments in the morning -- it's now 10 PM here in the state of Maine. I travel home tomorrow afternoon and return the following evening until the end of August. I'll probably post the daily chart for the engagement announcement on Wednesday night or Thursday morning, while I may explain the "looking ahead" process tomorrow as a lead up to the daily angles charts.
Once the solar return chart has been assessed, and its theme(s) determined, we need to find the dates when something will happen. There are several components to this "search" process. Before we actually look at the charts for Camilla engagement announcement and wedding dates we need to review the steps that may help us in our search.
ANGLES to ANGLES
I've mentioned the MC-Solar Cycle prior to this post so as to get everyone thinking about this before we had occasion to use it. The MC progresses some 450 degrees (more or less) each year, or about 1.25 degrees per day. We need to look at/near those dates when any natal angle becomes angular in a Progressed Daily Angles (PDA) chart. This can be done several ways; using the Riyal program which produces a daily MC and Asc. angles listing for each day of the solar return year, using a purchased software program to advance the S/R chart's MC by its daily rate of progression (see note), or by using a daily table of MC-advance to manually make a listing.
(Note) Using a software program to advance the S/R MC requires you to find out how to advance the MC by a daily increment. THIS IS NOT THE SAME AS PROGRESSING THE CHART. If you progress the S/R chart, you progress the MC and the planets ---- you don't get transiting planets. In effect, you need to find the programs method for recalculating the S/R chart for successive days while advancing the MC by the appropriate rate. This function may be linked to the Rectification or Rotate-a-Chart feature. Doing this will allow you to automatically or manually step through a chart for each day of the year, looking for appropriate patterns.
We are looking for dates when the progressed MC contacts the natal MC, natal Asc., natal IC, natal Desc., or natal CD point. We are also looking for those dates when the progressing Ascendant contacts the natal MC, the natal Asc., the natal IC, the natal Desc. and the natal CD point. In doing this we mentally remember that the MC progresses to its opposition to the S/R MC at 4 months and 3 weeks, and returns to its S/R MC position a 9 months and 2 weeks following our birthday. Or we can use a daily rate of advance table, or we can estimate interval days using a rule of thumb such as 10 degrees in 12 days, 38 degrees in a month.
Once we find a date that is interesting we can do a transit chart for that date and then rotate or rectify it to get the desired angles in the chart. Does this chart also bring planets that were significant in the S/R chart angles to the daily angles? If not, bring up another chart.
PLANETS to ANGLES
The S/R chart angular planets, particularly those planets that may be linked to natal planets, need to be angular in order to have something happen. For the outer planets, this is easy since they don't move much during the year. For the inner planets, we need to be familiar with their overall range of movement over the coming year.
In Camilla's case, we would look for periods when natal Saturn or transiting Saturn would be contacted by the progressed angles, when Sun and Moon were conjunct within a day's transit.
This is a surprise component which I am introducing to the list. Included in my book is an appendix section on Discovery Models. These are identifications of the few "planets" that seem most associated with PDA charts (and S/R charts) relative to a classification of typical experiences in ones life.
If we are looking for marriage indicators in this Discovery Model concept, we will look for (taken direct from my book) these factors:
* Venus at an angle; signifies desire, the achievement of balance, harmony and love.
* N.Node at an angle; Involvement with an associate.
* Neptune; The "fairytale" indicator, a situation in which one enjoys unreality and drama as the primary player.
PLUS, we need to consider these general indicators:
* Moon or Sun, as the feminine parter in a male chart or the male partner in a feminine chart.
* Angles at an angle, especially the natal Asc. at another angle in a S/R and/or PDA chart.
It is my impression that the horizontal axis in a marriage-related chart relates to the marriage partner's own/personal experiences and that the vertical axis seems to relate to family and social pressures that impinge on the wedding.
This should give everyone some food for thought. I will post the engagement chart in a bit. Dave
Well, I'll reserve my overall comments till you've finished your exposition
So far the only differences I perceive between us lie in the usual areas. You take a psychological approach (I note the emphasis on Rudhyar in your opening interpretation) on the other hand I don't. There's no point in rehearsing the differences because neither of us will 'convert' the other, but what does matter is giving as wide an context as possible for the method. So I'm basically going to repeat my earlier view, that the method can be used in other approaches to Astrology. Indeed the use of progressed solar returns can be dated back to Cardan, though clearly they were somewhat different from your progressions. Morin would also agree wholeheartedly with your description of the nature of a Solar Return. I mention that really to establish that the general approach is something which seems to me to be totally valid and I like what i have seen.
I do take a slightly different take on Saturn in Camilla's charts. I will reiterate some of my interpretation here, merely to give a slightly different slant on things. As Morin says, the Ascendant 'presides over the body, life, habits and mental ability', or to use a more modern phraseology Mind, Body and Spirit. Your interpretation of Saturn in the first, is a little too narrow. I don't think that Saturn for Camilla signifies 'Quiet or somber attitude', as Camilla doesn't have an ounce of melancholy in her and Leo (Ascendant) is certainly not a 'quiet' sign. The reserved behaviour is probably true, though only in a public context - and I'd probably have used the word 'control' (I was born in the same year, also have a Leo Ascendant and Saturn conjunct that Ascendant) However that is a very minor discrepancy, My main difference in approach would be that I would give Saturn prominence for it's accidental 'determination' - it's rulership of the seventh - in the context of looking at this particular Solar Return which is concentrating on her marriage. Elsewhere and at other times it's rulership of the sixth may give us some indication of factors which affect her health.
In the Solar Return chart Saturn is in partile Conjunction to the Moon as well as being angular. We've both alluded to the Moon as a marriage or partnership indicator, it's also a significator of the 'public' so we also have the signification of making the relationship both formal (Saturn) and Public (Moon). We need to remember that this is not 'any old marriage' it has public and constitutional significance - the latter stresses the role of the MC and tenth house, which might not normally be taken as important in a 'celebrity' marriage. The tenth is the traditional house of the King and that's literally what we are dealing with here. The presence of the natal MC ruler, Mars, in the angular seventh house of the SR chart, is a reminder of this dimension, and also the natal Saturn/Mars/MC links.
I'm also expecting that you will have something to say about Mercury, given that natal Mercury is on the SR Descendant and SR Mercury is conjunct SR Mars.
Slightly off-topic... sorry, but Saturn close to the Asc. keeps being mentioned.
I was once given birthdata details of a female to test a method out. This person had Saturn close to the Asc. After a quick overall survey of other factors it seemed to me that this person might not be alive! None-the-less I went through the motions. Later when I gave my results, I mentioned this - actually asked if this was a living person.
Turned out that they should have have died shortly after birth due to a heart default (Leo). BUT, thanks to medical help at that time & place, they survived.
Did Camilla have a difficult first few months of life I wonder?
Interpretive style, relative to Camilla's charts, has to recognize two factors. First, one's knowledge of how Camilla has expressed her birth chart up until now, something we can call "context", in her world of activity. Second, is the individual approach we take to viewing and assessing a chart.
In the first case, I know very little about Camilla and have to take a "generalized" approach to viewing her charts. This can't be helped, and it is something that affects us all as we deal with the charts of the famous. In some cases we have a better sense of them, in other cases we know little.
In the second case, a bit more complexity comes into play. Minderwiz did note a perceived influence of Rudhyar. I would also suggest Noel Tyl as a likely influence. While we can't go wrong emulating those astrologers in some ways, we have to recognize that we are all influenced by several "someones". We also develop our personal style --- that comes into play here in two ways. First, I'm taking my statements directly from the book in an attempt to both "test" the book's interpretations (I do this a lot, lately), and secondly, since I wrote the book I had to develop and refine my own generalized interpretations --- so those come through quite strongly.
Had I been able to research Camilla from my vacation spot, given the limited computer time I have, I might have both developed a better feel for Camilla the person and offered (as a result of that) my own off-the-top-of-my-head interpretations which would have differed somewhat.
In any case, I am presenting a system of prediction that has a coherent approach to interpretations that are nuanced for each type of chart as well as a process that comes into full focus once we move from the natal chart, through the solar return and into the predictive process associated with the PDA chart and its relationship to the other charts. All of these charts are linked by the MC-Solar Cycle and have to relate to each other as well as to reflect their individual structure.
This gets more complicated in this third step which involves identifying the dates when certain significant chart factors exist, as well as the interpretation of those factors when found. The use of the Discovery Models was developed to help beginners and early-studies students to find a focus for their search for meaningful dates.
Looking through a MC and Asc. listing for a year's worth of dates, or stepping through charts, day by day, on your computer screen, or estimating from a table when meaningful dates will occur is something that comes with just a little bit of practice. Within a short time, if one understands the MC-Solar Cycle concept, it becomes quick and easy. Dave
Yes that's a claim I've seem regularly and I am living (???) evidence for it. My birth was difficult, I was, what was called at the time, a 'blue baby' and it was not certain that I'd survive.
Which comes neatly back to my point about the Ascendant showing other things than a purely psychological perspective would allow. I was also prey to every childhood illness going until around the age of 7 or 8, when my health began to improve.
One Astrological explanation would be that Saturn, as a malefic, is harmful to the body and, perhaps more importantly that by primary direction, a first house Saturn would conjoin the Ascendant in the early years of life (well the first third of life as an approximation) and on average somewhere in the first 15 years.
Now I've even considered buying a biography of Camilla to see if she has had any significant problems in childhood and indeed on a wider level, any Saturn related health problems, as Saturn also rules her sixth. If we've got any Royal watchers out there, please let me know.
In Camilla's case the direction of Saturn to the Ascendant would come at the end of 1953 (assuming that her birth time is accurate). So it would be interesting to see if anything happened to her health around that time.
In my own case Saturn is on the twelfth house side of the Ascendant, so it's necessary to direct the Ascendant to Saturn. That direction occured in June 1954, aged 6 years and 8 months and coincided with a series of bouts of tonsilitis, which led to the consideration of an operation. They didn't operate and from shortly after the direction tonsilitis ceased to be a problem.
Interpretive style, relative to Camilla's charts, has to recognize two factors. First, one's knowledge of how Camilla has expressed her birth chart up until now, something we can call "context", in her world of activity. Second, is the individual approach we take to viewing and assessing a chart.
In the first case, I know very little about Camilla and have to take a "generalized" approach to viewing her charts. This can't be helped, and it is something that affects us all as we deal with the charts of the famous. In some cases we have a better sense of them, in other cases we know little.
Totally agree with you Dave, and I'm in exactly the same boat as you on Camilla (note my comment above on her biography LOL)
On the individual approach, like you, I think we all have to recognise that we are influenced by those Astrologers, we meet or correspond with or read and our experience of their methods. Sometimes that influence is positive and we incorporate it into our approach, sometimes the influence is negative. Both you and I came into Astrology in the 60s when Rudhyar and others who adopted his approach were dominant. I didn't stay with Astrology for long and more or less dropped it for ten years dabbled again and then went another 18 years before I really needed to return and get 'stuck in'. By the time I returned, the methods of the 60s were being questioned and our knowledge of classical and traditional authors was much much more than when Rudhyar was writing. So I'm not trying to discredit his approach. He worked in a period when Astrology was waking from a 1,000 year low and there had been a 200 year gap of substantial work. Moreover, even in the time of Lilly and Morin the knowledge of Classical Astrology was woeful because the texts really weren't available. or only existed in fragments or the result of multiple translations.
I'm not arguing here that the 'traditional' approach is 'right' but agreeing with your point about the influence of the 'current' thought. No doubt for both of us new and different takes will emerge as more is learned about the past J. M. Keynes in a different context said that we were all the slaves of some defunct economist, and in a real sense we are all slaves of some defunct Astrologer. The vibrance of people like Rob Hand, Lee Lehman, John Frawley and Bernadette Brady have dented the 60s approach but there will come a time when they are the defunct Astrologers and who knows, Rudhyar may rule again, just as Keynes gave way to the Classical Economics of Milton Friedman.
However for the current new student, it's a little dangerous to keep solely to the works and influence of Rudhyar, Tyl, et al. They need to also realise that there's moe to Astrology than that. For us, we'll keep to our own approaches because they work for us and that's also a very important point. We all need to have a belief and confidence in our interpretational measures, despite what others may say but we need to have established those in a learning process that involves a wide spectrum of views. I still see myself as a learner, which is why I enjoy your posts!
There are several notable features in Camilla's engagement chart, a progressed daily angles chart for Feb. 10, 2005.
Most notable is the natal Ascendant at the MC angle. Remember that I have indicated on several occasions that when Angles come to Angles in cyclic charts that we have a strong possibility of an event. I can quote from my book on this configuration: "Today you may be in the spotlight or asked to justify your position or goals for better or worse."
Because of the natal chart configuration, we also have natal Saturn closely conjunct the PDA MC: "Complaints arise, conditions imposed, overbgurdened conditions." These words cast Saturn in a negative light. While we wouldn't treat Saturn so bad in most natal charts (they represent a life time), Saturn does take more of a cautionary role in a solar return and a stronger negative role in a daily chart. Of course, it doesn't always work out this way because generalized meanings can't always be appropriate for a specific chart. But, if we were looking at this chart, we would note Saturn's position and blend it with the context of the client's life. Transiting Saturn is some 14 degrees away from the MC and doesn't play a role --- it was triggered 11 days earlier when an internal discussion was probably taking place within Royal circles.
We note transiting Neptune at the IC angle. Neptune, the fairytale planet, in the angle/house of new beginnings and endings, suggests the thrill of starting a new phase of her life after all the years of being in the background. Note that natal Neptune, in this chart is in the background and played the same role in the natal chart --- being at the IC angle. Some might note that Neptune "rules" the Pisces 5th house.
The current North Node is at the Descendant. The natal or transiting N.Node of the Moon is a common guest along the horizontal axis in social events and weddings.
Transiting Sun opposes natal Sun/Mercury. Those who associate the Sun with Leo (and the MC angle in this case) would tend to place emphasis on this pattern. I would tend to look more at the Sun as a trigger component first, and a echo of the Solar Return Chart where it was at the IC with Moon and Saturn, promising an overdue (Saturn) union (Sun/Moon).
Venus, which I often find at engagement charts, is absent and has no significant ties within the chart other than ruling the Ascendant.
Camilla's natal Jupiter opposes this day's CD Point. The CD opposition often points to the manner in which we push back against intrusions and the plans of others. I can't say if her social skills and high hopes had to be strongly demonstrated as part of the "negotiations" and "understandings" that seemed likely to be linked to this step, but her place in the Royal circle, after so many years, had to be acknowledged.
So, could we have picked out this, and a few other likely dates, ahead of time. Yes, we would have looked for:
1) Angles coming to angles. There were 253 degrees from the S/R MC to the natal Ascendant. Divide 253 by 1.25 degrees (or divide by 5 and multiply by 4 which would yield 51 multiplied by 4 to equal 204 days). The interval from July 17th to February 10th is 208 days. Pretty close for rough figures.
2) Other angles coming to angles would include MC progressing to the natal MC (about 140 degrees or 112 days or Nov. 6th or so. Or the MC progressing to a point opposite the natal MC on April 9, 2005, a distance of some 325 degrees or almost 9 months, when Camilla finally married Charles.
3) Where the Sun has played such a strong role in these charts, we would also look for when Sun might be at/near a progressed angle. Where the Sun moves about 1 degree a day (faster and slower at some periods of the year), we have to be careful about when an angle (progressing only a quarter of a degree faster) is seen to contact the Sun. Such a period can last for several days and is not always a primary timing factor.
4) Where Neptune was at the IC of the Engagement chart, we can look for when the progressing MC might be at 90 degrees or 180 degrees from the transiting or the natal Neptune --- it is fair play to exchange either planet for the other. This is part of another important guideline which I call a "similarity pattern", but that is a subject for another posting.
At this point it is enough to post the chart and note the factors involved. We will need to discuss in more detail the other things we would do to find possible dates. I'll be back online either late tonight or early tomorrow to continue the discussion and answer comments and questions. Dave
Glad you got back from your round trip safely.
In any chart a planet has two general roles to play. The first is due to its essential nature, and Dave's delineation of Saturn above gives a good outline of how Saturn might perform 'essentially' in her chart.
Secondly, a planet will play a role through it's accidental nature - that is due to it's placement in the chart such as through that it's role as a house ruler or it's relationship through aspect to other planets. Saturn, as we have noted is ruler of Camilla's seventh house of partnerships, including romantic relationships and marriage. It is also ruler of her sixth house, which deals with her health problems.
So which of these roles should we consider here? If we knew nothing of the situation then we might well have to deal with both. However Dave has set up a scenario of Camilla consulting an Astrologer about her likely forthcoming marriage. So we know which of Saturn's roles is important in this examination of this time in her life. Now that does not mean that Saturn is ONLY playing that role, the others will continue, but it does mean that her life's focus is on that role as ruler of marriage and partnerships.
So the two 'hits' that Dave mentioned relating to her natal Ascendant and natal Saturn being on the MC of the progressed SR chart to me point to one event - marriage and one which involves Camilla giving her body and soul to her new role in life. From the nature of such a commitment it is of course possible to speculate on her psychological state as that time approaches - however as that is what it would be, speculation, I'm not going to comment on that side of the interpretation.
There's one other thing that Saturn might indicate here. Saturn's essential nature does involve restrictions and limits and these will be a significant part of any marriage that Camilla undertakes. The restriction is probably due to the role her husband plays. He may be away from her for lengthy periods of time, so their time together is restricted, he may impose some form of restrictions on her ability to lead her desired life style. In this case Camilla's lifestyle from now on will be restricted through her marriage to a senior royal and probably the next King.
I wouldn't take Venus as the Ascendant ruler here to be insignificant or even of particularly low significance. No it's not major in this chart but she is there!
I'm not going to mention transits (at least not yet) and I think Dave has put his finger on one of the reasons, if transits triggered anything in this relationship then it was some time previously and what we are dealing with is the public nature of that effect rather than the private cause of it.
The last thing I'll mention at this stage, is related to Dave's attempting to narrow in on probable dates. I've seen claims for all sorts of predictive measures which are supposed to be exactly correct, even to the last second in some cases! I've never taken them seriously and Dave's exposition actually gives me more confidence in his method. He's going to have to select a most likely date for an event to materialise, from a number of contenders and that to me is the nature of Astrological prediction. There's a large element of interpretation of the chart which is involved at picking which of these contenders to go for. Dave's been using the method for a long time and therefore has a good working understanding of 'how' to select.
Now I haven't got that experience, so I'd be looking for corroboration from other methods, such as primary directions, lunar returns or profections. I'll make a very brief mention of two of these, because I want to make some use of one of the methods for the engagement and the other for the Wedding.
By primary direction, Saturn sextiles Camilla's natal MC on 25th Feb 2005, using the birth time that Dave quotes. If I use Liz Greene's quoted time of 7:00 am this changes the primary direction to 14th Feb 2005. Now this gives a very good indication of when something will happen relating to her role in society and will likely have something to do with a partnership. As it's a sextile it's not likely to be too bad an event. Now I'll say more about PD's later but for the moment I'll only add that Morin and Lilly would use PDs to identify the rough timing, hopefully to with a couple of weeks but certainly to within a year. They would then use solar returns, like Dave to narrow down, and also transits to fine tune. Morin even progressed his solar returns - not by the same method as Dave but for the same purpose.
The second check I used was profections. These date back to Greek times and simply involve advancing the signs of all planets by one sign each year. The relative positions remain the same. Now it's also possible to profect over sub periods, such as a month or day. Events are signaled by aspects from the profected chart to the natal chart. Casting a profections chart for 10 Feb 2005, I noted that Sun, Moon, Venus, Mercury, Fortuna and her natal Ascendant were all in the radical tenth. A year with a focus on tenth house matters. I also noted that the profected MC was very near her natal descendant - perhaps another indicator of change of role through marriage?
I've added bi-wheels for both the profections and the progressed SR chart, as I had difficulty following Dave's version. Please note that the latter is produced by Solar Fire and I would remind viewers that Dave reckons that Solar Fire is not as accurate as he would like. I therefore stress it should be used to get the impression.
There are excellent points in Minderwiz's previous post. Permit me to expand on four of those points.
CONTEXT FOR ATTEMPTING A PREDICTION
Yes, I couched my post/prediction within the scenario of Camilla seeking insight into the possibility of marriage within a year's time period. That was because it is necessary to be able to narrow down the range of possibilities that charts can symbolically throw at us. We could take a very broad view of the chart through the outer planet transits and cycles and "see" what they might say, then use various methods to keep narrowing down the likely symbolic meanings ---- in other words, we could blindly do charts without any context from the client. This is a waste of our time and their time in most cases. Context for an astrologer is no different than it would be for a visit to your doctor, "Hey, Doc, can you guess what's wrong with me today?" "No, your not even close but I do wish you'd make a better guess because I'm very sure its awfully serious."
In my book, for each astrological planet, I provide the following interpretive tools:
* Keywords for outward, inward, circumstance, and health.
* Nuances of expression for natal, solar return or daily angles charts.
* Meanings for the planet at the natal, s/r and daily MC.
* Meanings for the planet at the natal, s/r and daily ASC.
* Meanings for the planet at the natal, s/r and daily CD point.
* Situational meanings for s/r and daily angle planet-pairs.
This is one way of helping early-studies students to fit interpretive possibilities into symbolic meanings and into the context of their subject.
Suggesting specific symbol-placements for each of life's major experiences is one way to offer someone a road-map to start their explorations. The use of Discovery Models is not to provide a template that is rigid, or definitive for a given life-situation ---- we humans are much too complex for that simplistic approach. But, knowing what is likely to be important to look for gives us a starting point. I'm not sure if I will leave these Discovery Models in the book, that is a question that I will be posing to the several people who will be reviewing the book prior to publishing.
SELECTING POSSIBLE DATES
Selecting possible event dates is a matter of procedure. It can be done by anyone following any of several approaches. It is also an intuitive process in that experience with the chosen method permits you to zero in quickly on the few/several possible dates. The several approaches include:
* Stepping through daily charts that use the solar return as the base chart, using your (purchased) astrological software program. The programs that can do this will permit you to manually step through the charts or will automatically step through them until you stop them. You just have to be sharp enough to watch the angles and planets come and go and to be able to see something that might be interesting.
* Use a year's daily listings of MC and ASC values, along with a partial hit listing of planets contacting the MC angle. This is provided by the Riyal free-ware program. I make up a worksheet listing the angles and planets in zodiac-order (by sign and degree) and then scan down the screen listing to see when an angle "hits" those zodiac points on my work sheet. When I find a date, I call up a transit/natal chart for that date and "rectify" the angles to match the date listing. This gives a "correct" chart with an incorrect time and Moon position, but the Moon will be close enough.
* One quickly learns how to "estimate" the dates when angles will progress a certain distance to contact other angles or key planets that were highlighted in the solar return chart. The rule of thumb, "degree-distance divided by 5 and multiplied by 4 equals the number of interval days until contact" is very useful. One also knows that the MC reaches its oppositional point in 4 months and 3 weeks, and returns to the s/r MC position in 9 months and 2 weeks.
If a significant event occurred at some date in the previous Solar Return year and a resulting event is likely to occur at some point, look for this 9 month and 2 week cycle to indicate the "re-occur" date. This happens so often that I'm astounded that other astrologers haven't made note of it.
For those that are following these posts, "prediction" isn't easy in the sense that you don't have to make an effort. But, if you are a serious student and one who drops charts off of the computer at the blink of an eye, then you will find that this process is quite easy after you have done it a few times. There are weeks when I calculate 40 or 50 or more charts to explore some interesting idea. Nowadays, I tend to keep a couple of dozen test charts and use them to test ideas rather than search and calculate from scratch.
Questions, comments? Dave
Just to throw in a bit of Jungian sychronicity (yes I have heard of it LOL);
I was reading Morin in bed this morning. whilst watching the rain come down and came across the following strictures which are very relevant, I've updated the English but rhey come from Morin's rules of prudence:
1. If you don't know the birthtime be very careful in what you say. Make it clear that you are predicting on the hypothesis that the birthtime it is true but that there is doubt about the predictions.
2. If you are certain of the birthtime then you can make statements about the person's body, inclinations and his intelligence BUT you can only make statements about the the person's future with probability and conjecture
3. The more you know about the preson's current situation and the events leading up to it the better will be your ability to predict.
4 The judgement of any Astrologer is much more certain about present things than future things because the Astrologer can know the current situation in detail.
5 You can never assert anything with confidence from a single natal chart concerning what the individual may do in association with someone else, - such as get marriage.
Morin and other Astrologers of his time did not see the future as perfectly determined by fate and easily read by an Astrologer. In his phrase Astrology is a conjectural science. So Dave and I are building conjectures, but in this case we can test our conjectures against what actually happened. If tests like this show that the method produces conjectures in line wth events, then we may be more confident about our other conjectures about the future.
Minderwiz noted, "Dave and I are building conjectures, but in this case we can test our conjectures against what actually happened. If tests like this show that the method produces conjectures in line wth events, then we may be more confident about our other conjectures about the future."
At least no one can fault me for trying. In every area of astrology, someone has a focused interest. If everyone made an effort to push the boundaries that did/do exist such that new ground could be postulated, explored and then evaluated, we would all benefit greatly.
Jeff Mayo of the Faculty for Astrological Studies told me that every astrologer has the duty to explore, test and develop his particular practices. It is the only way we can repay those who have brought us forward to this point. I will move onward tomorrow with a daily chart for Camilla's wedding day. Dave
This is the last step in our exploration of a predictive method using precession corrected solar return and progressed daily angles charts. As we have seen, the whole concept is both simple and congruent in that the natal chart and the MC-Solar Cycle is used to link all three chart types together into a cyclic expression of life.
We have learned, for early-studies astrologers/students, that we emply different methods once we leave the natal chart area of practice. We have been introduced to the view that natal, progressed and directed charts are all based on the time frame of the natal chart and that they represent symbolic time projected from the natal chart into the future. We additional learned that cyclic charts such as solar returns, lunar returns, transits and planet-pair cyclic charts are all based in "current" time. These charts work better when precession factors are corrected.
I will now complete this examination of the prediction process using the PDA (progressed daily angles) chart for Camilla's marriage on April 9, 2005.
Noteable are the angular features: natal MC at the IC angle, natal Uranus at the Descendant angle, transiting Sun, N.Node, Venus and Moon at the IC, and the natal CD point at the Ascendant along with transiting Pluto. I will review each of these factors using the general statements from my book.
* Natal MC at the IC: "Changes and new opportunities are thrust upon you."
* Natal Uranus at the Desc.: "Surprises and excitement due to the actions of others, upsets and change brought to you by others."
* Transiting Sun at the IC: "Sale or purchase of a home, taking legal action, decisions that bring about changes or lead to changes, a change of heart or making a decision about a new direction. A new situation is imposed upon you."
* Transiting Moon at the IC: "Upsets at home, women visiting, feeling imposed upon in trms of what you value or protect."
* Transiting Sun & Moon at IC: "Husband/wife activities, partner harmony."
* Transiting Venus at IC: "Gains received, home improvements or gifts, a reordering of resources, a change in one's happiness-level."
* Transiting N.Node at IC: I didn't include this position in the book, but I would interpret it as a new association is being established in lieu of an older arrangement. Sounds good, I'll have to include it in the book.
We can look at some other factors.
* Natal CD at the Ascendant: In the book I note that this situation depends upon the significance of the solar return chart, and that the CD can act as a trigger point. The solar return chart had Neptune (the fairytale planet) loosely conjunct the CD, with the natal CD being contacted by transiting Pluto. The Neptune factor has to do with hopes and dreams, the Pluto factor relates to irrevocable changes. Neptune/Asc. (horizontal axis) relates to a personal view and experience. Pluto/CD in s/r 10th (vertical axis) relates to the broader family and social circles and their structures as an external influence over the marriage. We can speculate about this.
* Transiting Jupiter has been passed by the PDA MC 5 days earlier. This may have been a day of agreements made, assurances given, gifts exchanged in terms of legal documents signed relates to the wedding and estates, etc. We could note the Sag. Ascendant sign and Pluto being there along with the CD point ---- all pointing to this sort of background preparation for the wedding and change of Camilla's status.
Angles-at-angles is the key thing to keep in mind when searching for an event date. In this PDA chart we have the natal MC at the PDA IC, and the natal CD at the PDA Ascendant. I CANNOT STRESS ENOUGH THAT THIS ANGLES-TO-ANGLES CONTACT phenomena is so important to finding event dates.
I had mentioned, briefly, "similarity patterns" in a prior post. It is appropriate to revisit this concept now. For those who have followed these charts, this should have already been noted by you.
* The natal Sun and Moon are in the same sign, but are 13 degrees apart with the Moon closing the Sun.
* The s/r Sun/Moon are conjunct, signifying the partnership theme.
* The PDA-engagement chart has the Sun/Moon conjunct.
* The PDA-marriage chart has the Sun/Moon conjunct.
This repetitive pattern should be like a hammer hitting one upon the head. It gets your attention! The similarity of these features should be a big clue as to helping determine a likely date ahead of time for a marriage.
This completes our exploration of this predictive process. A few posts cannot duplicate the coverage that a book provides, cannot deeply explain the fundamental concepts, or give the dynamic range of examples that show those concepts in action. Yet, the basics are here in these posts.
Those who would like to move beyond natal chart astrology can find that the use of precession-corrected Solar Returns provides an exciting new area of practice and learning. Proportioning the difference between one solar return and the next yields our PDA charts. This "proportioning" is easily done using any of several methods: 1) Riyal free-ware astrology program with MC-Asc. listing for each day of the year, 2) A spread-sheet (Excel) calculator which I can send to anyone who requests it, 3) a hand calculator, 4) a simple table of MC advance tables and day-number-to-date conversion tables, or 5) the use of an advanced astrological software package that can advance the s/r date in day-steps. Its easy, but it does involve a bit of effort to learn and to establish an ease of using these methods. Dave
Dave, thanks for your time and efforts in explaining your methods of prediction using Solar Returns. I've found it most interesting.
I've not chased up the transits but have a couple of comments on the Wedding PDA chart. I was rather amused by your delineation of Uranus on the Descendant. It conjured up pictures of a bride who was surprised by her own wedding LOL.
You've used Solar Returns and PDAs here, do you use Lunar Returns (and even direct them as Morin did?) I idly cast the Lunar Return prior to the wedding The key feature was a Saturn/natal Mercury conjunction. Mercury rules the MC and also her natal part of marriage. Yet another indicator of the change in social status and 'honours' resulting from the marriage. Mercury of course was on the Descendant of the Solar Return chart.
I didn't really see anything in the PDA that made that suggested that particular day as the Wedding day (as opposed to days either side) but I might have missed something there.
I mentioned before that I had also done profection charts for the engagement and the Wedding. The MC of the daily profected chart was in partile conjunction with the natal Descendant - A final and exact indicator of the change in rank and honours that occured that day through marriage. In this particular case the profections approach hit the day correctly but I've no reason to suppose that this would always be the case - it might be a lucky hit.
Now I've concentrated on the wedding as an observable event, rather than the background - unless an authoratative account is published we've no means of checking many of the delineations. We can though know that the wedding took place and it's date and time.
One final thought here - The wedding was actually delayed because of the death and funeral of Pope John Paul II. Would we expect the significators to point to the original wedding date or the actual wedding date, i.e. if we were running this thread in July 2004 should the significators have pointe do a wedding on 8th April.
Thanks again for your time and energies. I wonder if anyone wishes to raise any questions on the how and why. I think Dave would appreciate even very basic questions or even questions along the lines of 'I got lost at post x...what do you mean by...? type.
This predictive process relates the natal, solar return and daily charts into a consolidated grouping, all based on the MC-Solar Cycle that commences at our birth and continues unbroken throughout our lives. You can't read one chart without reading the others.
Minderwiz noted, "I didn't really see anything in the PDA that made that suggested that particular day as the Wedding day (as opposed to days either side) but I might have missed something there."
* First, the days on either side of the wedding date or part of the cyclic process and may or may not show a distinctive difference. I have examples in the book when one can follow several steps over several days leading up to and contributing to an event.
# Second, the factors that signified the wedding day can be grouped into two sets of phenomena. The first set of factors are the "timing" factors; the Sun-Moon at an angle (Sun and Moon conjunctions/closeness were factors in this set of charts), angles at angles (natal MC at the PDA's IC angle, and natal CD point at the PDA Ascendant).
* The second set of factors also include those angular placements of natal-s/r-PDA planets that relate to marriage, to male/female situations, to associations, to change (see my notes in my last posting); transiting Sun at the IC angle (changes in ones home), Sun & Moon at the IC (husband, wife activities), transiting Venus at the IC (change in one's happiness level), transiting N.Node at the IC (new associations formed), the repeated emphasis on the Sun/Moon at the angles in this set of charts---what I call a "similarity pattern"). The engagement chart was notable for transiting Neptune at the IC (a marriage-fairytale factor) and transiting N.Node at the Desc. angle, plus the natal Asc. at the MC ---- these are all part of the process/cycle of change in Camilla's life, a change that had an overall "significator" of Pluto transiting over her natal CD.
We have to think in "cyclic" ways when working with the predictive process. It's like waves at the beach, they keep rolling in and every seventh wave a big wave materializes. We can't look at these charts as singletons, these are very much "cyclic" ---- a viewpoint that astrologers often forget in terms of its true meaning.
As to your point about other returns, Minderwiz, no, I don't use Lunar Returns as that is another type of cyclic chart. I once used them very heavily and found them reliable although they were heavily slanted to one's responses to the world around them (very lunar in nature) and not at all like the solar returns (very conscious, directive, action driving). I will be starting a new book this winter on Lunar Returns using precession correction as well as the Draconic Zodiac ---- the Moon has its own cycle and relationship to the Earth-Sun relationship. As fare as progressing the lunar return, you might wish to look into the Nicewander method which is supported by Riyal. There are also references to this method in the past-postings of the Riyal website on Yahoo.