Avalon Tarot (LS)

[Cerulean]

Rather beautiful, for me an odd choice. I tend to favor softer paintings or less 'yanglike' (Diane Wilke's Tarot Passages reading link) decks. But I found reviews that commented on the artistry of the pictures...I read with interest the comments by Diane Wilkes & Lee Bursten at TarotPassages, one by Valerie Bernal Sims and one on the Astrology Center of American...
I would bring it out, look and then put it away. The LWB was quite good, but somehow it wasn't clicking with me for awhile. I wanted to use it as a reading deck that would go with the right Arthurian text or storylike collection. I've other Arthurian or Celtic-tale-specific decks, but I have to admit this one always had vivid, romantic look and a storylike tug to my imagination. I wished I had the right keys to unlock it...I found it as a cross between the moodiness of Tarot of the Secrets and raw edge of Tarot of the Origins.
If you've enjoyed, not enjoyed, reviewed, looked, traded or liked this tarot...did this evoke strong opinions or a ho-hum?
I think I found the right book to help evoke a storytelling bent with this tarot, the Song of Arthur: Celtic Tales from the High King's Court by John Matthews.
Any comments on colors, the review posted to Aeclectic, suggestions, etc?
Thanks
Mari H>

[darwinia]

Originally posted by Mari_Hoshizaki

I think I found the right book to help evoke a storytelling bent with this tarot, the Song of Arthur: Celtic Tales from the High King's Court by John Matthews.

Hi Mari,

I just bought the Matthews' Hallowquest deck because of its emphasis on older tales, less romantic than the Malory-inspired ones of the Middle Ages. Is this the book you're referring to:

"Told in the voice of King Arthur's mythic bard, The Song of Taliesin, by John Matthews (The Winter Solstice), gathers 20 stories from Arthurian legend. The Sacred Pigs of the Isle of the Mighty, a cauldron with frightening powers, murderous lords and a giant who is responsible for the rising and setting of the sun are among the many fantastical details of these new interpretations of ancient stories."

I vacillated between buying this Arthurian deck and the Ferguson deck but in the end it was this starkness and dark ages detailing that convinced me the Matthews deck was the Celtic one for me. Plus I just liked the black archways on the cards.

I was interested in the Avalon Tarot. Apparently it focuses more on the Knights of the Round Table rather than Arthur--one of the kicks in the Hallowquest is the way they put Arthur back in quests the way he was in the much older stories. OMG look at the Ace of Swords in the Avalon--that is deeply moving in some way--so stirring and heroic.

This Lo Scarabeo deck has a comic book feel about some of the images too which I like. Ooh and Lancelot has long, dark hair on the 6 of Cups--guaranteed to induce swooning. Diane mentions in her review how some of the cards deviate from the R-W meaning and seem non-sensical but frankly I love that storytelling aspect and enjoy a challenging meaning rather than the same old thing.

Lee says basically the same thing about unrelated art and the "appeal to today's youth." I'm not sure why he continually makes the correlation between teenagers and nudity like it was a disease they had--this seems an avid projection of his own negative bias on the artwork which is normal in a review, that's why we read 'em, but he's really fixated on that. <g> He says about Vivien being on the Temperance card that "One would be hard pressed to find anything suggestive of these qualities in the portrait of a woman in fancy get-up with flowing hair and metallic eyes." He's got a point but have you read the wild associations Rachel Pollack draws about the R-W deck? She can suggest mountains from nothing, it's the mark of storytelling, imagination and myth.

It's what *you* do with the deck, and why get something different and expect the same canned images as in every other deck? I think your idea of using the stories of John Matthews as a study tool might be interesting.

If you get going on that aspect I'd be interested.

[Astraea]

I love almost all things with Celtic themes, so I'm glad to have this deck -- but I don't find it easy to read with. Like many LS decks, the art is wonderful and the meanings often non-traditional, which can be a worthwhile challenge. Aesthetically, and in terms of the ability to enter the cards for a dreamlike retrieval of meaning and associations, I prefer the softer Celtic decks like Legend -- though historically, the unbridled passion (including violent imagery) characteristic of the LS Avalon deck is probably more accurate. For that reason, perhaps the Avalon would work especially well for work on issues that need grounding, realism and "punch." Much depends upon one's mood and the needs of the moment, I suspect. To me, LS artwork is unparalleled and all of their decks are worth having for that reason, alone, finances permitting.

[Cerulean]

...from you all.

You all hit the right words...I couldn't quite describe how the vividness might work into real archetypes, but there's energy there that I sometimes need to tap into to relate to things...

...such as answering hard questions and knowing different perspectives, but remain true to my own strong, grounding definitions. For instance, sometimes we face bitter bits or need to support others faced with some grinding aspects in their lives--- but we need to convey love, differing views, or support to the person with compassion. Or we need an engaging wordweaver such as the Matthews to help slightly disengage from being too close to a situation and in the quiet, then reflect...

I don't mind some sensual beauty in my archetypes, just as I admire descriptions of some of the virtues of the Arthurian archetypes. Perhaps it reminds me of lovely historical lectures or the semi-mythical court figures such as Elenor of Acquaitaine and her young kings or dashing uncle at the edge of the second Crusades. I can be sensible that I may never have been that young and gorgeous, nor want such drama in my daily life---but if the romance and beauty engages the imaginative bent to heroic stories, then sometimes the character and edge of the tale is what I need.

I always appreciate seeing such different reviews. Lee B. goes into great detail, which I appreciate. I may have noted a slight tendency to an opinion of European art that my mother might have. I actually like knowing where a reviewer does stand if they have a conservative bent or are or are not a historical student of Arthurian literature. To be honest, I am delighted with most of the Matthews' work as my first look...still branching out in such studies. I did look at the Aquitaine historical background last year and some of the stories that came from that court...different perspective.

Mari H.

[Cerulean]

Julia Margaret Cameron (sp) in the 1860s did high-art photography and staged scenes from Tennyson's Idylls of the King. I realize this is slightly off topic, but the imaging journal idea is fantastic to my mood book of Celtic/Arthur...so I'm going to include past artist examples...here, if you don't look too closely at the staging, just the mood, you can see the visual translation of the King Arthur's tales seemed dramatic and romantic to especially the Victorians:

http://www.ngv.vic.gov.au/cameron/phid.shtml

I'm actually looking also for Dore illustrations to add to my image and imaginative base for King Arthur tales. Hope this adds to your rich enjoyment of King Arthur resources and journal projects.

[Astraea]

Thank you for that wonderful link, Mari_Hoshizaki! I really enjoyed seeing those photographs, particularly since I love Victoriana and the combination of Arthurian lore and Victorian staging is intoxicating.

[darwinia]

Stage settings and costuming are interesting with regard to archetypes and myths. These Victorian stills are like vaudevillian vignettes. I was fascinated by Pamela Colman Smith's biography in the Encyclopedia of Tarot V. III, and her love of plays and costuming. It seems to me that television and film has taken us away from this more direct assimilation of myths and classic stories.

I was involved in a drama group when young, I can remember the plays we did so well and the feel of the costumes, like I was still wearing the story today. You don't get to wear the story any more. Amateur productions seem more interested in doing musicals or gritty dramas and farces than romantic historical plays. We are slightly more jaded than Victorians I think, perhaps because archaeology was a newer science in the last century and lots of fantastic discoveries were made, fueling their notions and interest in history. We're more interested in aliens!

One of the things I like about tarot is that it brings back this freshness to history in its art and depiction of story and myth.

[Icestorm]

Ive seen this deck for sale in a local store. I love the depictions, but I dont like the artwork. (if that makes any sense)
I think the artist mauled a few of the faces, and its a very 'rough' feel to it; but then, my vision of arthur lies in Malory "la Morte D'Arthur", and yes, LEGEND: the Arthurian tarot (of course).

Having said that, Im interested in knowing if anyone can read comfortably with this deck, cos at the end of the day, the deck that you can read the best is the most valuable :-]

[Lee]

I was innocently checking out the latest threads in the Tarot Decks forum when, to my surprise, I found myself described as conservative and fixated on teenagers and nudity! Yikes! :)

I went back and re-read my review. Freesiaskye says that I "continually make the correlation between teenagers and nudity like it was a disease they had." But I only mention nudity once in the entire review. It's true that I mentioned a few more instances of why I felt the deck's creator was aiming to appeal to youth, but those instances were unrelated to nudity. Also, if you read my review carefully you'll see that I was speaking of the intentions of the creator and publisher, and I wasn't meaning to suggest that teenagers are obsessed with nudity or any such thing. However, I apologize if I didn't make this clear enough in the review.

I honestly don't feel I'm conservative when it comes to art. Mari, the phrase "European art" seems awfully broad. "European art" could encompass Ruebens or "Barbarella." Isn't it possible to like one but not the other? I'll admit, however, that I have little liking for the particularly vicious combination of sex and violence which is currently being aimed at children these days by movie and record producers, and I noticed the same combination in the Avalon Tarot, which makes me less than comfortable with it. If that makes me a prude, so be it.

-- Lee

[RiccardoLS]

Originally posted by Lee
If that makes me a prude, so be it.

Finally You admit it! At last, you confess!!!!
Let's stone him!! :))

- I just wanted to say, that I feel the Avalon became a bit too much comic-book like. And that - while not a negative thing " per se" - in my opinion killed a lot of the spirituality of the Arthurian legend.
The source for the deck was a very well documented work by Lorenzo Tesio on Jacques Boulanger study on the Grail (sorry Icestorm: no Melory at all, here). The art, moved an higly dramatical concept to the boundary of action-Tarot (new word :).
It's cinetic, and it's very aggressive, like a super-hero art... but I miss the original concept of the script.
Thst was just to say that I agree with Lee, so I'm hopelessy prude as well :))

On the other side, I must admit, there had been a lot of people that liked the deck for the same reasons I felt a bit deluded.

Riccardo

[darwinia]

Originally posted by Lee
I found myself described as conservative and fixated on teenagers and nudity! Yikes! :)

Hahaha, I never used the word "conservative" that was your own projection of my meaning. You will notice that after I described you as "fixated" I put "<g>," so you would know it was a joke.

Did you also notice how complimentary I was about your excellent and thorough comparative review of the Legend and the Hallowquest decks in another thread? You were busy thinking I had labelled you a prude, which is a word I didn't use either. Prudent certainly, but not a prude.

Ah dear Lee, you and I continually get our wires crossed. You know what you need, a nice session with the Osho Zen TAROT!
Come on, let's see what Osho has to say about it all......;-) )see this means I'm teasing you.)

[truthsayer]

i have to agree with riccardo and lee. i love the romanticism and spirituality of the arthurian myths. the avalon concentrates more on aggressiveness and sexuality--not that there is anything wrong with that. it just detracts from my long held expectations of courtly love. probably the avalon is more accurate to what it was really like. i know it was the bards/troubadors that got the arthurian legends romanticized. what romantic about hacking each other to death or charging each other on horseback to see who's tougher? it's like the romanticizing we do of sports heroes today. we try to make demi-gods out of those who excel in sports like michael jordan in basketball. we are all shocked when we find out our hero has a shadow side. we try to make physical prowess equal nobility of spirit and being a heroic perfect person w/o the dark side all humans share realistically.

there is one story about how a knight raped a girl. the queen was going to have him executed but allowed him to speak first. what he told her so delighted her that she spared his life. i don't remember his story but this was a romanticization of a very violent act and the arbitrary justice of the court. but how the story was written, i remember hoping the knight's life would be spared. this is not like me at all--being willing to romanticize violence in the here and now. i'm always watching these true crime stories and want perpetrators of crimes caught. i realize that probably knights got away with crimes that today we would condemn. such is the power of seduction in the arthurian romances. i would probably not want to live in those times. the times weren't kind to women.

i didn't like the violence depicted in the avalon even though i have collected as many celtic and arthurian decks as possible. so i traded it.

[Lee]

Originally posted by freesiaskye
Hahaha, I never used the word "conservative" that was your own projection of my meaning. Freesiaskye, I was responding to both your and Mari's comments. "Conservative" was Mari's word.

I think a session with Osho is an excellent idea, and I'll get back to you with the results! :)

-- Lee

[firemaiden]

Yay! another stoning! (Jehova, Jehova...STOP SAYING JEHOVA you're just making it worse for yourself...WORSE? HOW COULD IT BE WORSE???? jehova, Jehova, Jehova...)

Oh, where was I, sorry, before I was so rudely interrupted?..
yes, I thought the artwork too comic-book like as well, and thought that it didn't go with the theme, so I didn't buy it.

[RiccardoLS]

Originally posted by firemaiden
Yay! another stoning! (Jehova, Jehova...STOP SAYING JEHOVA you're just making it worse for yourself...WORSE? HOW COULD IT BE WORSE???? jehova, Jehova, Jehova...)

Always look at the bright side of life...

Riccardo humming a tune :)

[firemaiden]

Ah, Riccardo! Now you have me whistling that tune! I won't be able to stop! It's going to keep me awake all night.

Always look on the bright side of life
:P

[Cerulean]

I'm rather glad for the commentary that I've read here.
I do hope that my respect for Lee Bursten and the other reviewers did come through. Lee, I think you have a very clean and precise strength in expressing your opinion. When I find that my opinion differs from yours, then I try to think very carefully why. So I use you as measuring gauge of sorts. For some reason, on the Avalon Tarot, your reaction to the art seemed more conservative than myself.
I probably need to correct my earlier comments--from what I recall, Valerie Sims, Diane Wilkes and Lee were more in general agreement about their reaction to the art. They may just have more delicacy and better feel when it comes to certain art opinions in tarot for the American audience.
It was very helpful to read both Lee and Riccardo's reactions here. I just got back from a day of kayaking, so please excuse my fuzzyheaded responses right now.
My best wishes,
Mari Hoshizaki

[RiccardoLS]

Originally posted by truthsayer
i love the romanticism and spirituality of the arthurian myths. ... it just detracts from my long held expectations of courtly love

I would never describe the Arthurian legends as "romantic". And even "courtly love" should be seen with a different life than we usually do.
- the fault is Melory which is a much later source and - alas - he is considered the standard of Arthurian legends at least in English speaking countries :) -

Anyway I (it's a big Imho) found the Arthurian legends never romantic, but always poetic. Does it make sense?

Riccardo

[Icestorm]

Originally posted by RiccardoLS

Anyway I (it's a big Imho) found the Arthurian legends never romantic, but always poetic. Does it make sense?

Riccardo

Of course it does, thats what Middle English does to you, lol :-]

Romanticism exists within ourselves, it just gets brought out by situations: and cards, of course.

My own opinion of the Avalon tarot, now that Ive looked through it (my local new age store is NICE) is that it is simply not very well drawn. Maybe the artist is a genious at his particular style of art, but if it is, I cant really say I like it. Especially the faces: how UGLY is Arthur!!??
(Sorry, my Malory speaking there again.)

-Great review Lee, I agree almost completely with what you said.
Its not conservatist to dislike the avalon :-]

[RiccardoLS]

Lee and Mari are among my best reviewer of choice :)
One day or the other I will make a review of reviewers :) [and I'll mark Diane 1 star, just because I'm evil :)]

While they hav a totally different approach to a Tarot deck, they both make me see the deck with their eyes, and while I may disagree in opinion, I always listen to them very carefully.

[Lee]

Hey everyone, I apologize for my crankiness in my earlier posts. I'll try not to be so sensitive in the future!

And I'm very happy to be admired by the evil Riccardo. :D

-- Lee

[firemaiden]

Hey Lee, I read your crankiness with admiration, because so well written and creative. Where would the world be without a little discomfort once and a while to nudge the ol' brain, eh?

[Cerulean]

and nice Tarot Teacher Lee and Silly Lee in reviews and otherwise. I want you to join the Laura Tuan Celtic Tarot group and give us the all American view of spiders and snakes in an imaginary celtic world that may exist between the underworld and overworld, making no sense whatsoever.
-----------------------
Semi-seriously, courtly love from the Arthurian tales touched on by the Christien LeTroyes/Aquitaine view seems to have components that touched upon Dante's world about two to three centuries later. Dante's Vita Nuava did have some of those components that were later refined and transformed. Some components of courtly love that at least the lecture series spoke about included:

1) Love did languish because of many circumstances and tragic circumstances added to the drama of the story. At least in Avalon tales. There are other tales I believe that are prior to Dante that have components of both emotional and symbolic struggles (Heloise and Abelard), but I believe Dante is cited as a pivot point in incorporating both into a private spiritual quest.

2) Unhappy love was poetically sung or written about with the love duet usually being male and female---I have only those examples in the Arthurian tales.

3) I believe people trace courtly love themes through Christien Le Troyes, Dante and Shakesphere, but the regions and time periods all added their own historical tastes, twists and additions...I'm trying to pinpoint why the Avalon Tarot seems to agree with my opinion of courtly love tales that were medieval and uneasily had to touch upon Christian, pagan, romantic and unrestful fermentations...somewhere between the idea of the Grail Quests and Crusuades and perhaps the real underlying conquests...

I'm less fuzzy-headed today, but don't know if this is any clearer to anyone whose seen the Avalon Tarot. It has the uneasy, twisted, beautiful, dream-filled and yet painful touches somehow all there. Perhaps John Matthews' Song of Arthur is providing more of the music that I am beginning to associate with this tarot.

Peace to you all,

Mari H.

[northsea]

Can anyone let me know whether or not the Avalon tarot portrays the grail legends in depth or is merely an "art deck"? Specifically, since I haven't seen all of the cards, I wonder if it includes Morgan Le Fay, the questing beast, specific knights of the round table and so on? I like much of the Hallowquest tarot's Majors cards assignments (like the Flowering of Logres for the World), but think it falls somewhat flat in portraying the complete Arthurian mythos. The Legend Arthurian is more extensive, but has some questionable card assignments. So what about the Avalon or the new Holy Grail deck by Lo Scarabeo?