Natal chart's question

Hi everyone,

I'm new to astrology and I've recently taken a look at my natal chart and I find out that I have a quite close opposition of Jupiter and Saturn.

In some sources that I read, they mentions that when the opposition aspect appear in the chart, if one planet is well-dignified than the other, then that planet will take the lead. So if one planet is dignified (say my Saturn in Capricorn) and one is exalted (say Jupiter in Cancer), how can their strength be manifested? (With both planet in Cadent house Saturn in 9th and Jupiter in 3rd)

another question is regarded about my Mercury. Since it involve in the T-square between Saturn/Neptune and Jupiter; thus, I'm quite interesting to know how it operates in my chart. Does being in the Cardinal T-Square, it will require a high determination to control to energy flow of Mercury into Saturn/Neptune/Jupiter matters? And being in the Cadent House will help to decrease the intensity of this T-Square?

I really hope that somebody will shed some light to these matter for me.

Here is my natal chart

http://i530.photobucket.com/albums/dd345/dunglovelyshinh/astro_2gw_01_dung_dao1315931493.gif

Well you recognise the need to consider both essential and accidental dignities but modern Astrology is rather weak when it comes to these and ends up more dependent on the relatively weak feature of aspects.

Now Saturn has a lot going for it in terms of essential dignity - as you have said it's in it's own rulership but it's also in a mutual reception with Mars - Mars is in the sign of Saturn's triplicity and Saturn is in the sign of Mars' exaltation. So a strong Mars would further strengthen Saturn. Many Traditional Astrologers would indeed add extra points through this mutual reception. However Mars is in Libra which is it's detriment. So Mars might not be quite the asset that it seems. Again accidental dignity might boost that though.

Jupiter is in it's exaltation but is also in it's own Terms. So Jupiter also gains points and if the Mutual Reception with Mars is downplayed, then Jupiter might have more essential dignity than Saturn.

Let's look at Accidental dignity. As far as house placements go both 9th and third are positive placements but ninth is better. Indeed if the positions were reversed, Jupiter in the ninth would gain even more as it is in the House of its Joy. So on these placements, Saturn gains a bit over Jupiter. Saturn is also fast whereas Jupiter is very slow - so you should be looking to see if Jupiter is near a station retrograde, or has just begun to move from a station direct (It stationed retrograde a week later) The former weakens it, the latter is better, though nowhere near as good as being swift. So Saturn is oriental (stronger) Jupiter is occidenal (weaker).

Even ignoring the Mars mutual reception, Saturn is the stronger of the two. It is also above the horizon in a day chart wheras Jupiter is below it (both planets are diurnal and are stronger above the horizon in a day chart).

In terms of the T Square, I tend not to use aspect patterns, again they are a modern invention which attempts to paper over the cracks in the lack of analytical tools. However the Mercury/Saturn 'square' is wide, nearly eight degrees and outside the traditional orbs between the two planets (traditionally it is planets, not aspects that carry the orbs) Indeed on the basis of traditional moeity (half orbs) the 'square' between Mercury and Jupiter is also non-existent.

How is the opposition going to manifest - well there are many ways that it can do so but the ways will share a common theme of controlled growth and expansion. The main areas of life will be in higher education, in religion (especially the struggle between the dominant social religion and the more 'non-conformist' views. But also Look at the Houses that these two planets rule. You might also include travel in there as well.

Saturn rules the MC and the 11th, Jupiter rules the twelfth and the ninth. The ninth appears again, So 10th, 11th and 12th may well be affected by the opposition.

As both planets are well dignified, I would expect the outcomes from the opposition to be positive (though not necessarily easy lessons) and well planned and co-ordinated.

Thank you Minderwiz for your very very insightful reply. I do see the importance of merging all the information of both essential and accidental dignities. What I looked at before is just on the surface of the matter. Your answer give me a wide eye-open . Thank you.

The information you provided about accidental dignities is really interesting to me. If considering about this type of dignities then my Moon would get a strong accidental dignity (in its own house) and Venus would be weakly placed (in the 8th House of death), right? But since you mentioned that planets will be stronger when they are above the horizon in a day chart, so the 8th house would not be a bad place for Venus?

Again, I'm really thankful for your respond, it really help me learn a lot

Essential dignity is concerned with the sign (and degree) placement of the planet. Thus Saturn in Capricorn has essential dignity by rulership. Acccidental dignity is concerned with the position of the planet in the chart, and encompasses house placement, orientality, speed, aspect to benefics/malefics etc.

Your Moon does indeed rule the fourth and is placed in the fourth. However it is in Leo, and that is not strong by essential dignity. Indeed your Moon is peregrine, it's a bit of a wanderer. However it does score well from the fourth house placement (though I'd tend to reduce it's score a little because it's not in the same sign as the cusp). The Moon rules nocturnal (night) charts and therefore should be below the horizon in a day chart (which it is). The Moon can be placed above the horizon (we often see the Moon by day) but that is not a good placement for a nocturnal planet).

Venus is also a nocturnal planet (Moon, Venus and Mars are the three nocturnals) and also is better below the horizon in a day chart, though as it can never be far from the Sun this is not particularly likely. Actually if you had been born just after sunset instead of just before, Venus would be well placed, above the horizon in a night chart. Nocturnal planets are best placed above the horizon during the night, whereas diurnal planets (Sun, Jupiter and Saturn) are best placed below the horizon in a night chart. The Sun of course is ALWAYS below the horizon in a night chart by definition.

Yes Venus has weak accidental dignity from the placement in the eighth. So has she any positive accidental dignity. Well she is occidental (above the horizon when the Sun sets) so that's positive (though not by enough to offset the placement in the eighth). Venus is slightly above average in motion, which would perhaps gain a little more accidental dignity but still not enough to offset that bad placement in the eighth.

Wonderful, wonderful. Thank you so much for those inputs.

Now I see Acccidental dignity is not solely concerned with house placement, but also the planet's orientality, speed, aspect to benefics/malefics as well.

So when a planet makes aspect to benefic planets, will it score higher than the aspect to malefic planets? (And what's type of aspects will score higher soft or hard aspect?)

Let me take an example to demonstrate my understanding. My mercury is in 6th house (it own house/house rulership), quite beneficial when placed in Libra. It is in direct motion and its speed is also above average in motion. So it score quite high in chart. Now looking at aspect, as you said, the square between Jupiter and Mercury is almost non-exist (when base on the basis of traditional moeity), the wide orb of Saturn-Mercury square also decrease the intensitive of this aspects. I don't know if you count Pluto/Neptune/Uranus as malefic so I leave them out. So there is only 2 major aspects. a conjuntion between Mars to mercury and a Sextile between Venus and Mercury. I will take the conjuntion as a very noticeable aspect while sextile is weak in nature. (So the score of Mercury is reduce a little bit due to the conjuntion between it and malefic Mars, right?)

OK, let's look at Mercury.

First, it's essential dignity. Mercury is in Libra where it's peregrine. So no dignity there. Indeed Lilly would count that as -5 points.

Now it's accidental dignity.

House placement: it's in the sixth, which is one of the less desirable places (inconjunct the Ascendant) so that scores -2 (I might reduce that a bit because it's not too far from the Descendant)

It's oriental (rises before the Sun) which also scores -2

It's under the beams (within 17 degrees from the Sun) which Lilly scores as -4 (but as Mercury is never more than 27 degrees from the Sun the odds are it will be under the beams or combust) so I'd reduce or ignore that one.

It's just over 5 degrees from Mars. Now Lilly scores a partile conjunction with Mars as -5 but that's both planets in the same degree, so five degrees away would reduce that significantly to -1 or so.

Now that gives us total debilities of : -4 (roughly)

Is there any positive accidental dignities?

Well Mercury is direct, so that scores as +4 and as you point out Mercury is swift, so that's +2.

Now Mercury is also sextile to Venus, which would score +3 if it is partile. Now it's just over a degree separation, so we might count that as +2, Also Venus is Mercury's dispositer, so that looks more favourable still, so let's allow the +3, BUT Venus is in the eighth which is not good. So back to +2.

That gives us a total of +8 in positive dignities and a net score of +4 on accidental dignities.

Uranus, Neptune and Pluto are probably malefic. But you must remember that the scores given by Lilly apply to partile aspects - planets in the same degree. Widen the separation and the score falls. Lilly doesn't give a sliding scale, so there's room for judgement there.

I also work in moeities and there's no moeity given for the outer planets. At a guess I'd score Uranus and Neptune at about the same as Saturn (Uranus and Neptune being the 4th and 5th largest objects in the solar system) - Now those moeities may be wrong because Neptune is never visible and Uranus is only visible under exceptional circumstances, so it might be better to treat them as the equivalent of fixed stars. Pluto in my mind is a discredited planet - Astronomers got it wrong in the first place and estimates of it's size have continuously dwindled.

Fascinating! Thank you Minderwiz. The first time I looked at my chart, I somehow felt "God, poor the Mercury with all the hardest things happen to him". But consider again with all of your calculation...+4 is so positive and I hope he can be happy and satisfied now.

So can I safely assume that Saturn is the strongest/dominant planet in my chart since it got high essential and accidental dignity?

And what is poor or weak house placement in the chart? The 6th, 8th and 12th right? So what if a planet is said to be "joy" in that house, can this fact generate any favorable influence to the planet? (Ex: My mars in 6th house)

Well Mars and Saturn are malefics, so they are best hidden away where they can do the least harm LOL

The Sixth, Eighth and Twelfth are inconjunct the Ascendant and so represent those parts of life that are not as important or don't function well for us (and have therefore become associated with the bad things).

Saturn joys in the twelfth and Mars in the sixth - they're better there than in say an angular house, where they are constant pains.