View Full Version : Forgiveness and Thelema??
thorhammer
08-09-2009, 22:30
I was thinking about this today, about self-forgiveness in particular. I tend to be very hard on myself, so it's something I ponder often.
The idea of forgiveness is bound up in the notion of a conscience, I would say. And as I understand it, the conscience is something that stands in the way of one developing an understanding of the True Will.
And yet, the whole . . . vibe (if I may get all New Agey) of forgiveness is such that I don't want to dismiss it out of hand. I'd love to hear discussion of it from the eminent authorities and thinkers who frequent this forum.
So what of forgiveness of others, who trespass against us? What of forgiveness of ourselves, when we fail to live up to our ideals/ethics/expectations?
I really would love to have you all contribute your thoughts, free of recrimination or attack.
\m/ Kat
cardlady22
09-09-2009, 03:32
I'm quite interested to see what comes up here as well. I'm not sure that what gets "taught" as forgiveness is actually what needs to happen. We've all been in the childhood scenario where we did something and were told to say "I'm sorry" and the other child was told to say "I forgive you." Some meant it; some didn't. Most of us probably didn't even understand what was behind the ritual.
The basis for getting angry or hurt stems from expectation . . . or am I all wet? And, of course, that doesn't count deliberate violence.
The idea that you "owe" someone an apology, or that they should come ask for your forgiveness creates a dilemma of its own. In my family, there are instances where certain people felt driven to confess and ask forgiveness, but the damage from the revelation was far worse than the Original Event Cause. And yet, there is a definite calming effect (for me) when I know that my behavior was uncalled for/wrong/thoughtless and I admit that. I suppose the question comes down to "When do I admit to myself vs. another human being?"
At some point, a person has to evaluate whether the expectation is realistic. Can or will that person (or your own self) change to what was expected?
I'm probably not expressing this the way I want.
The idea of forgiveness is bound up in the notion of a conscience, I would say. And as I understand it, the conscience is something that stands in the way of one developing an understanding of the True Will.
I'm a bit rushed at the moment, so this will have to be brief. But it might get you started.
Conscience, stripped of parental, social, and religious indoctrination, is a sure guide to acting in accordance with the True Will. The trouble is that most of us have had another persons ideas of right and wrong forced upon us. These alien ideas may or may not be in conformity with the Will. But true conscience and learnt behaviour patterens can sometimes be very hard to distinguish from each other. This is why the first rule of the Mysteries has always been Know Thyself.
Always Wondering
09-09-2009, 11:31
Great question Kat.
Good to hear from you Cardlady.
It was a little jarring for me, when I first came to try and understand Love under Will, to read about human relations as math and chemistry. I wanted someone to spell out the new rules about love, including forgiveness, because I had a load of guilt and anger for doing the "right" thing.
I found no peace in "right" as I had equal and conflicting desires. All the rules in my life became meaningless. I had no compass for navigation. I did not seek advice from anyone; pure instinct told me not to. I had no idea what Love under Will was, just a vague reference to one of my tarot cards. This is how I got to this forum.
This is how I began to start to know myself.
It wasn't so much about forgiving myself, but beginning to accept myself.
Just a dramatic version really, of what Aeon418 just said. :laugh: He always makes everything sound so easy. ;) :laugh:
As for forgiving others, I don't know, I tend to internalize everything for better or worse. I'm a bit of a hermit that way. It's not so much what anyone does to me.
I guess it's all about me. :| :laugh:
AW
It is not often I agree with Aeon418- but this time I do. Hope I am forgiven for this lapse :D.
I think people often confuse forgiveness with the front porch to forgiveness - The apology. I guess the apology is about when we are simply wrong and it stops self- righteousness. So, leaving that aside, people view Forgiveness as different things. I view it much like the Dictionary - cease to blame or hold resentment against- pardon yourself and others. I do not hold a religious view on forgiveness.
A Guy called Harvey Jackins wrote " Given our heritage, childhood, upbringing, our background and education and all experiences we have been through it would probably be true to say the we have done the very best at every moment of our life- that is the very best we knew how to do at that time. Weren't our decisions the best we knew how to do and were capable of? They may not have been good or empowering, but if we could have made better ones I am sure we would have chosen those, chosen more skillful, more conscious choices. So what's to forgive?
So then apologise to ourselves and others if necessary and move on, knowing ourselves a little better.
Although we sought to do the right thing and believed we were doing the right thing with some judgement, hindsight can prove us wrong. That's OK, it's a lesson.
~Rosanne
Forgiveness, as I understand it, is simply letting go of any negative emotion you may have toward a person or situation. It doesn't mean you are giving the other person a free pass to trample you again, or that you will forget what has happened; it just means you let go of the need for revenge, toward yourself or another.
Letting go of negative emotion frees you to pursue your own path rather than getting all tangled up in negativity. :)
thorhammer
09-09-2009, 21:08
I'm quite interested to see what comes up here as well. I'm not sure that what gets "taught" as forgiveness is actually what needs to happen. We've all been in the childhood scenario where we did something and were told to say "I'm sorry" and the other child was told to say "I forgive you." Some meant it; some didn't. Most of us probably didn't even understand what was behind the ritual.I guess I should have put it more explicitly in my post, that I meant forgiveness in the mature sense, not the empty apology sense.
I posed the question because I've always had a problem with forgiveness, of others for many years, and of myself more recently. Forgiveness, to me, is the ability to let go of residual resentment or tension stemming from perceived wrongdoing. It's not an admission that the wrongdoing was right, after all, and that one's reaction in being hurt or disappointed was unjustified. It's more that you're able to learn from it, and move on. When it involves two people, I guess the potential for learning is increased exponentially, not just because both have the opportunity to learn thorugh experience what is right or wrong, but to observe another individual's reaction and behaviour in this situation. The basis for getting angry or hurt stems from expectation . . . or am I all wet? And, of course, that doesn't count deliberate violence.I guess I never thought of it like that. But I suppose it's a valid point, really. Bears more pondering.At some point, a person has to evaluate whether the expectation is realistic. Can or will that person (or your own self) change to what was expected?Even better point. But, in theory*, two people's True Wills will never be at odds^, meaning that somewhere in the middle there, there is a reasonable, commonly applicable expectation.
\m/ Kat
* Disclaimer: As I understand it.
^ Makes me think of those hordes of bats that live in the blackness of vast caverns; when they take flight en masse, somehow they never collide.
thorhammer
09-09-2009, 21:14
Conscience, stripped of parental, social, and religious indoctrination, is a sure guide to acting in accordance with the True Will. The trouble is that most of us have had another persons ideas of right and wrong forced upon us. These alien ideas may or may not be in conformity with the Will. But true conscience and learnt behaviour patterens can sometimes be very hard to distinguish from each other.Agree, wholeheartedly. Every day, I face situations where I need to make a decision about how to act, and agonise about which course of action is dictated by habit/nurture, and which by Will/nature.This is why the first rule of the Mysteries has always been Know Thyself.*annoyed* Yeah, thanks. Seems quite self-defeating to me - one can't embark on the journey till one has achieved the destination.
\m/ Kat
thorhammer
09-09-2009, 21:22
It was a little jarring for me, when I first came to try and understand Love under Will, to read about human relations as math and chemistry. I wanted someone to spell out the new rules about love, including forgiveness, because I had a load of guilt and anger for doing the "right" thing.
I found no peace in "right" as I had equal and conflicting desires. All the rules in my life became meaningless. I had no compass for navigation.I can identify so strongly with this whole description! It changes your worldview so fundamentally, and it's like trying to stay perfectly upright, balancing a full teacup on one's head, during a massive earthquake :joke:As for forgiving others, I don't know, I tend to internalize everything for better or worse. I'm a bit of a hermit that way. It's not so much what anyone does to me.See, I've always been a grudge-holder. In recent years, I've improved greatly, and now I don't carry bitterness around like a sort of perverse trophy (I figured out it wasn't helping me ;)). And yet, just forgiving others out of hand, without somehow communicating the reason for the perception of transgression, just grates on me so badly! I need to tell these people what they've done *wrong*.
I guess that raises another question - Who am I to tell them what is wrong?
\m/ Kat
thorhammer
09-09-2009, 21:27
Although we sought to do the right thing and believed we were doing the right thing with some judgement, hindsight can prove us wrong. That's OK, it's a lesson.
~Rosanne
I'm sorry if I sound combative, Rosanne, but your post sounds very much influenced by modern day New Age fluffiness. I really don't mean to insult you, as I'm sure you know.
There just seems to be a distinct lack of personal rigour in your outlook as posted above. If it's so okay to always make mistakes, why try to be better in the first place??
:P
\m/ Kat
thorhammer
09-09-2009, 21:29
Letting go of negative emotion frees you to pursue your own path rather than getting all tangled up in negativity. :)And, I suppose, allowing yourself to dictate your own course, as opposed to being a pinball, always bouncing off obstacles.
I know, I talk in metaphors.
\m/ Kat
cardlady22
10-09-2009, 00:07
Makes me think of those hordes of bats that live in the blackness of vast caverns; when they take flight en masse, somehow they never collide.
This is so perfect to me! They are actively looking out for each other. We humans need to develop and use our own radar system. :grin:
ETA: This might be falling a bit off-topic, but it floored me when I realized that what I thought was a click with a person - as in "oh, let's get closer" - was actually a warning: Danger! "just like before"
Agree, wholeheartedly. Every day, I face situations where I need to make a decision about how to act, and agonise about which course of action is dictated by habit/nurture, and which by Will/nature.
And what do you use to try and make these decisions? Most people use their rational minds, the intellect, to make these kinds of choices. But the intellect is a good servant, but a bad master.
In a way the mind is like a computer. If you don't have the right data, or some of the facts have been half guessed or inferred, then the final answer is going to be wrong. In life we never get all the facts. So we have to make the best of a bad job and, for good or ill, make do with what we've got.
But fortunately we're not robots or computers. We have another side to our nature. Take a look at the RWS Lovers card. The Man (Conscious intellect) looks at the Woman (Subconscious, feelings). But the Woman looks at the Angel (Super-consciousness). So just like the man cannot look directly at the Angel, the rational mind cannot grasp the Will unless it surrenders some of it's control and learns to listen to subconscious feelings and intuition.
But, and here's the sting in the tail, not everything the woman/subconscious says is to be trusted. She is a store house of many things and not all of it is useful. This is why initiation is described as the journey inwards. Until you start you are not in a position to judge what things within you are dross and what are Will. This means the intuition has to be developed. Because without it the subconscious will tell you anything you want to hear. (Now there's a warning for Tarot readers everywhere. The cards never lie, or do they? ;))
But there is one saving grace here, but you probably won't like it because it sounds like corny, cheesy, new age slop.
Remember that Thelema and Agape both equal 93. If you can't see Thelema, then go with Agape.
Follow your heart.
*annoyed* Yeah, thanks. Seems quite self-defeating to me - one can't embark on the journey till one has achieved the destination.
But the journey and the destination are one and the same. There is no magical finish line where you turn around and say to yourself, "wow! I'm enlightened". It's a continual process of self-revelation. Yes, you will mess up along the way. But that's part of the process. And the only real way you can truely mess up is to continually make the same mistakes.
I'm sorry if I sound combative, Rosanne, but your post sounds very much influenced by modern day New Age fluffiness. I really don't mean to insult you, as I'm sure you know.
There just seems to be a distinct lack of personal rigour in your outlook as posted above. If it's so okay to always make mistakes, why try to be better in the first place??
:P
\m/ Kat
Hehe Kat! I am the least New Age person I know. I do not mind combative. No insult taken.
The personal rigour was beaten out of me by the Church lol.
I find your concerns very Catholic by the way. You seem to have a very religious view of Forgiveness- hence the hardness on yourself of late.
So what that other people do not live up to your expectations, and sometimes you do not live up to your own expectations? Take a leaf out of Crowley's life- we is flawed beings! That does not mean we do not have to have any expectations of ourselves to be better than a minute ago.
Here is the answer and it is from Aeon418 ....
It's a continual process of self-revelation. Yes, you will mess up along the way. But that's part of the process. And the only real way you can truly mess up is to continually make the same mistakes.
and by the way I view Thelema as New Age- possibly the beginning of it... :wink:
~Rosanne
O.K. so I read post 10 by thorhammer and this really took me by surprise "........modern day New Age fluffiness..."
:laugh:, New Age fluffiness was born out of Thelema! :laugh:
Sorry, I do not mean to be disrespectful, and we all have our own way of understanding things - but the G.D. & Uncle Al etc. more-or-less kick started the (esoteric) 'New Age'.
On topic: Forgiveness.
I suppose it could be viewed in a 'religious' light, as could 'compassion'. But I don't think either are confined to any religion. Basically I think that forgiveness is merely a letting go of any personal feelings that you would normally allow to stand between yourself & any other person/thing. A sort of 'surrender'.
Bee
Take a leaf out of Crowley's life- we is flawed beings!
This is interesting.
We are flawed beings!? But flawed compared to what? Someone else's ideas of perfection? Or some other artifcial standard of perfection that we must all be measured against and judged accordingly?
In the final analysis you can only be yourself. If that doesn't meet someone else's standards, tough sh*t!
thorhammer
10-09-2009, 19:35
This is turning out to be very interesting, this thread. And it's really highlighting to me the changes in my POV from day to day! I keep looking back, thinking, "What was I on???" :D Thanks to everyone :)But the journey and the destination are one and the same. There is no magical finish line where you turn around and say to yourself, "wow! I'm enlightened". It's a continual process of self-revelation. Yes, you will mess up along the way. But that's part of the process. And the only real way you can truely mess up is to continually make the same mistakes.I really appreciated your whole post, Aeon, it's really given me lots to think about. I love that you've applied that axiom about good servant, bad master to the intellect. That's given me a really big wad to chew on. But it's the last sentence that has really helped me the most, coz it's so true. It helps me to be a little gentler to myself. And maybe to others, too . . . if they're lucky :DTake a leaf out of Crowley's life- we is flawed beings!This is interesting.
We are flawed beings!? But flawed compared to what? Someone else's ideas of perfection? Or some other artifcial standard of perfection that we must all be measured against and judged accordingly?
In the final analysis you can only be yourself. If that doesn't meet someone else's standards, tough sh*t!Yes, true. And I try not to look at something or someone else and think, "Okay, I'm ahead on that count, now I can relax for a bit" :D I'm not a believer in Brownie points LOL, so although I know I'm flawed (as in, my true self has been corrupted by conditioning and life experience lived wrongly), I'm still aiming high.
\m/ Kat
thorhammer
10-09-2009, 19:38
I find your concerns very Catholic by the way. You seem to have a very religious view of Forgiveness- hence the hardness on yourself of late. Really? Interesting observation, as it's not something that had occurred to me at all. But thanks for sharing, it gives me some context within which to consider my own thoughts.and by the way I view Thelema as New Age- possibly the beginning of it... :wink:
You and Bernice basically said the same thing, so in response - you all knew what I meant :P. The new New Age has stifled and stultified and stymied all the force and effectiveness out of the original New Aeon thoughtforms. Please don't make me find the words right now, I'm having a hard week :D
\m/ Kat
Thorhammer: The new New Age has stifled and stultified and stymied all the force and effectiveness out of the original New Aeon thoughtforms.
Yes Thorhammer I think you may be right about that. All 'created' mental-structures seem to become old-hat over time. We either outgrow them or become enmeshed in worn out views. I expect it's evolution, you have to move through 'new' stages to first appreciate, and then discard, the shortcomings of the 'old'. The danger here is dumping the baby with the bath water.
I'm thinking this is what you meant? If not = ignore me!
Bee :)
thorhammer
10-09-2009, 20:04
Yes Thorhammer I think you may be right about that. All 'created' mental-structures seem to become old-hat over time. We either outgrow them or become enmeshed in worn out views. I expect it's evolution, you have to move through 'new' stages to first appreciate, and then discard, the shortcomings of the 'old'. The danger here is dumping the baby with the bath water.
I'm thinking this is what you meant? If not = ignore me!
Bee :)You make a very good point, though I don't think it applies to this situation.
I meant more that the vast majority of people in the new New Age section of society have taken the warm fuzzy purple-glitter-and-faeries-of-light-with-soft-marshmallow-kisses bits that they found in the GD/Thelemic upsurge, and run with it. Consequently, we have a whole subset of society (and moreso commerce) that caters to the wish of the masses to congratulate themselves for being mediocre. Scion says it so much better than I do . . .
I just saw a flash of that in Rosanne's post, that's all. And my reference in my OP to a "vibe" jives with what I'm talking about here, hence my *apology* in that post :D. I try not to use NewAgeisms, but I've been so *dumb* this week . . .
Have I expressed myself better this time? (she asked, helplessly)
\m/ Kat
Thorhammer: I meant more that the vast majority of people in the new New Age section of society have taken the warm fuzzy purple-glitter-and-faeries-of-light-with-soft-marshmallow-kisses bits that they found in the GD/Thelemic upsurge, and run with it. Consequently, we have a whole subset of society (and moreso commerce) that caters to the wish of the masses to congratulate themselves for being mediocre. Scion says it so much better than I do . . .
Loud applause from me! We are agreed. I love the "warm fuzzy purple-glitter-and-faeries-of-light-with-soft-marshmallow-kisses" phrase - you and Scion both, neatly and clearly say it like it is. :laugh:
But remember that the 'whole' only travels/evolves as fast as the slowest component, and commerce, especially, is bent on retaining their position within the whole. I think they more than 'cater' to wish of the masses, they are earnestly creating a market to maintain their 'hold'.
But keeping to the topic, can we forgive them? (I'm a meany = I understand but deplore them).
Bee :)
But it's the last sentence that has really helped me the most, coz it's so true. It helps me to be a little gentler to myself. And maybe to others, too . . . if they're lucky
This is one of the funny things about existence. We incarnate to experience life from a unique point of view. But from the moment we get here we do everything in our power to try to be someone else. :laugh:
The process of self-revelation can't really begin until you learn to live within your own skin and start to embrace your own uniqueness. This has an interesting side effect. Acceptance of self leads to acceptance of others. No sooner do you begin to appreciate the difference within yourself, you also begin to see the same quality in other people. Instead of difference being perceived as a threatening deviation from the "norm", it becomes a point of intense interest that reveals the amazing richness and variety inherent in human life.
This is why I find it bizarre that people can point to Crowley as an example of someone who was flawed. This presupposes that someone can know another persons Will, or direction in life, better than they know it themselves.
Always Wondering
11-09-2009, 03:33
so although I know I'm flawed (as in, my true self has been corrupted by conditioning and life experience lived wrongly), I'm still aiming high.
\m/ Kat
I get what you are saying and it is hard putting this stuff into words. I do wonder if life can be "lived wrongly", I am more comfortable with "perceived" wrongly. Change "flaw" to "error" and I won't embarrass you and get all "new-age" and proclaim your perfection. But I am highly tempted. ;)
An error is always a half-truth. You don't have to get rid of your errors. What you have to do is to take the truth that is in them, and complete your realization of it.
AW
thorhammer
11-09-2009, 08:32
I get what you are saying and it is hard putting this stuff into words. I do wonder if life can be "lived wrongly", I am more comfortable with "perceived" wrongly. Change "flaw" to "error" and I won't embarrass you and get all "new-age" and proclaim your perfection. But I am highly tempted. ;)
Well, thankyou :D But I definitely think that life can be lived wrongly. I have made wrong decisions in my life, I know that. I have learnt from them, which redeems them as not entirely a waste of time, but it would have been better if, in the first place, I had done what I knew was right rather than what seemed easier or more fun.
Just the other day, I sat down to drink most of a bottle of wine, after spending most of this year dry. I did it belligerently, knowing that I was making a mistake and that I was doing it for all the wrong reasons (one of those being to inflict my drunkenness on my boyfriend) . . . yet I still did it. I knew it was wrong. I made the wrong decision.
So, maybe there's not just right and wrong - there's also "usefully misguided" :D.
\m/ Kat
Always Wondering
11-09-2009, 10:43
I did it belligerently, knowing that I was making a mistake and that I was doing it for all the wrong reasons (one of those being to inflict my drunkenness on my boyfriend)
I've done this too, and "worse". Let's face it, if Crowley doesn't shock me maybe nobody will.
This is just my, possibly unThelemic, opinion but it's not easy living in skin. They don't call it the Great Sorrow for nothing. I think everyone has their escapes, some healthier than others. I hope you don't have to beat yourself up too long, though I completly understand it. Been there.
If I was there I would make you a cup a tea and I would tell you all about my belligerent inflictions. :| You never know, I might even shock you. :laugh:
AW
paxinterra
12-09-2009, 08:59
I know this may sound a bit new age, or borrowed from self help programs, I find they all have interconnecting bits. I struggled with the concept of forgiveness for a long time. I had issue with allowing such behavior and transgressions upon me. It has taken me a long time to let that go. Forgiveness is not about letting the other person or persons off the hook, but setting yourself free. Holding those grudges only hurts you. As in all things, the forgiving and letting go is a process.
ravenest
14-09-2009, 12:28
Forgivness? Crap! Go back there and fix up the thing you did that you think you need forgivness for. That's my take on it.
I'm reverse catholic ... I dont believe in spiritual christian forgivness ... like being a sh*t all your life and then getting forgivness so you can go to heaven, what a cop out!
I dont want to forgive someone that ripped me off ... I want the money back.
If I smash your car, I dont want forgivness or acceptance of pathetic excuses or anything, I will want to fix your car (and lend you mine while yours is being fixed).
I have a friend who's ex (and the 3 babies father) keeps ripping her off. Visists his kids and steals their food money when she isnt looking. He admitted it when she rang him but then said "At least I own it. I'm sorry, I cant help myself, I have an uncontollible drug problem."
"What! Bullshit! Did he pay you back ... or even offer to pay you back?" I asked her. .... of course he didnt.
Forgivness - crap! Just an excuse to make those that trash others feel better about it. Don't do it in the first place ... if you do, do whatever you can to make it right.
ravenest
14-09-2009, 12:31
And Thelema started the New Age?
Really!?
I thought it was all that acid back in the 60's.
Or are we talking some type of new manifestation here; Neo-thelema?
:shudder:
Forgivness? Crap! Go back there and fix up the thing you did that you think you need forgivness for. That's my take on it.
Exactly. Brooding on mistakes doesn't accomplish anything. It just makes the hole seem even deeper. But for some people the 9 of Swords is their favourite card in the whole deck.
I dont want to forgive someone that ripped me off ... I want the money back.
Ravenest, I think this needs a bit of clarification. I know where you are going, but it does skate perilously close to an endorsement of hanging on to bitterness and resentment. Which leads us straight back to our good old friend the 9 of Swords.
ravenest
15-09-2009, 12:20
I will maintain my opinion ... until I get the money back!
But I see your point, maybe I wont be 'bitter', but I will remember! I wont lend that person money again. Unless before they borrowed it they said "I dont know how, when or if ever I'm going to be able to pay you back." They could have been honest in the first place.
Part of the blame will rest with me, for being stupid or not observant enough, or maybe I did it to see if the person is trustworthy.
Learn from the mistake and move on. But dont forgive (forget) the lesson.
Really, there is nothing to forgive in the first place ... but there might be things to ADJUST.
I suffer, and will suffer for the rest of my life from a smashed shoulder. My karate instructor did it to me. I didnt need to forgive him becasue what difference will it make, he shouldnt have done it and he knows that. But I'm still friends and still train with him ... but I am a LOT more carefull OF him becasue now I know he can do silly and innapropriate things and break the teacher student trust. I might still make smart comments about it, I'll warn people about him but I'm NOT going to gloss it over. I'm not going to invent reasons in my head and 'forgive' him - no, he shouldn't have done it!
"Are you still holding on to that?" I've been asked about some things. ???? What's the point of forgetting important lessons we learn in life?
Some of you might think I'm mixing apples and oranges, mixing up forget and forgive, yet in my experience, a lot of the time, those that 'forgive', 'forget' and round and round they go on the wheel having the same shit thing happen to them (offen by the same person) over and over again.
thorhammer
15-09-2009, 12:28
Some of you might think I'm mixing apples and oranges, mixing up forget and forgive, yet in my experience, a lot of the time, those that 'forgive', 'forget' and round and round they go on the wheel having the same shit thing happen to them (offen by the same person) over and over again.Yeah, but they're mixing their apples and oranges, too - or throwing the baby out with the bath water.
You can forgive and forget, in which case no one learns the lessons.
You can forgive but not forget, in which case you're calmer in yourself and also wiser.
You can neither forgive nor forget, in which case you're going to be bitter and suspicious (suspicion being the sour spinster sister of wisdom).
Or, if you're really dumb, you can forget but not forgive, in which case you're going to be perpetually unhappy and never learn why or not to get yoruself in the same place again.
\m/ Kat
ravenest
15-09-2009, 13:06
Sometimes I dont think I know what forgivness is. Or why we needed it in the first place. Perhaps its because someones actions caused a reation in US and we need to clear it? The reaction (or a specific type of reaction) should be there, so we learn and dont forget the lesson. I think inappropriate reactions relating to other parts of our outlook or psyche are what people are trying to clear with the concept of forgivness?
When did forgivness start? (okay - i know DUMB question) Was it always there like this ... and in other cultures or has it risen to significance the more others trash those they see as weaker or inferior to themselves.
Forgivness seems to imply a state of mind that was faulty in its perception of what happened to it in the first place .... a bit like 'karmic punishment'.
thorhammer
15-09-2009, 13:30
Forgivness seems to imply a state of mind that was faulty in its perception of what happened to it in the first place .... a bit like 'karmic punishment'.Or, coming back to what cardlady22 said, a faulty or inappropriate expectation. Perhaps even a "lust of result"?
\m/ Kat
Learn from the mistake and move on. But dont forgive (forget) the lesson.
That's it. Extract the lesson from a painful experience, but make sure you move on. Otherwise you end up living in the past. And the sad thing is that even though it's all in the mind, people torment themselves like this throughout their life.
The key is to acknowledge errors and mistakes. Take the lesson on baord. Make any necessary adjustments, and then move on. But don't keep punishing yourself. You can't travel back in time and undo the past. What's done is done. But you can influence what happens next with the wisdom you've already gained.
"Are you still holding on to that?" I've been asked about some things. ???? What's the point of forgetting important lessons we learn in life?
Try telling yourself that the next time you have argument with your girlfriend/wife.
I bet all the guys here know what I'm talking about. ;) :laugh:
ravenest
22-09-2009, 11:34
Try telling yourself that the next time you have argument with your girlfriend/wife.
I bet all the guys here know what I'm talking about. ;) :laugh:
Worse still, try telling yourself that the next time you have argument with your girlfriend AND wife.
I think another issue is that in English we dump ten or twenty things into a box, paste 'Forgiveness' on it and call it a word. Do you 'forgive' a stranger in the same way as you forgive a loved one? An enemy? Are you the one that feels the 'need to forgive' or are you the one that 'needs forgiveness'? What if you need to forgive but the other party feels no need to be forgiven? Or if you need forgiveness but the other party refuses? Or the other party feels you have no need to be forgiven?
What about forgiveness? It depends on the particular situation. I will pardon an enemy if it will not negatively affect me. I certainly wouldn't put myself in a position for another hit afterward though.
It is harder to forgive a loved one because the 'forgiveness' required goes deeper than a mere pardon, but the rewards for it can be far more profound as well. The requirements for a loved one to be 'forgivable' are also a lot higher.
Both are called 'forgiveness' but they don't look or feel the same at all.