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dadsnook2000
01-10-2009, 04:10
Most everyone believes that their natal chart portrays the nature of the character and personality and general health and attitudes. I believe that, more than that, the natal chart represents one's POTENTIAL. Now, that potential can't all be realized at one time, or all of it realized over time as a whole set of possibilities. No, potential is determined and expressed a piece at a time, one symbol here, another symbol there, a group of symbols at another time, and all of it re-learned, re-expressed repeatedly over time as we mature into who we are now.

Before we consider just what that potential is and how we might individually shape it over time, we can consider another aspect of our birth chart that is seldom considered by most astrologers.

Your birth chart represents the situation that your parents were experiencing at and around your birth date. No, your natal chart is not your mother's chart or your father's chart----but it is a picture of their situation at that time which you were born into.

How would one look at such a chart?

A) One component that I would look for is which of your astrological planets conjuncted (or had a major aspect to) the Sun or Moon in either parent's chart. This would show what portion of your character and personality most interacted with their focus-intent-hopes for you (Sun), or the manner in which they would relate and respond to some portion(s) of your personality and activities (Moon).

B) Another component to consider is any of the mid-outer planets that may have been in either a conjunction or opposition aspect in the several months prior to your birth. Where did that cycle (conjunction) occur in your chart by sign and degree? The meaning of that planetary pair, for you, will be important if that point is also close to a natal planet. Where that cycle was relative to your parent's charts, especially the Sun and Moon, will tell you how they included the meaning of that planetary pair in their lives.

For "B" above, let's use a current example. We have a Saturn-Uranus conjunction in the sky now. Let us say that those two were in a opening square (Saturn 90 degrees ahead of your Uranus) in your natal chart. We know that this pairing represents conservative approaches to maintaining the status quo versus an urge to change something, anything, for the better and to change it now. While the opening square indicates that their is a personal struggle to define the battlefield rules as they apply to you before taking on this struggle, the point where the cycle started (the conjunction point in your chart) is likely to be the place where your battle will be faced and won. This point in your parent's charts, if aspecting their Sun or Moon, will show where and how their relationship to you will be affected.

How your early family life, your parents and you, deal with tensions such as these can affect your potential, your attitude about life, your early personality as you move towards your teenage years where you can think for yourself and make life-influencing decisions.

I think these two considerations, A and B, are enough for members of this list to wrestle with. Such a exploration will take us away from the conversations about Mercury and into some actual astrological examination. Who is up to the challenge? Dave

AJ
01-10-2009, 04:15
I'm up for reading along Dave, although I have nothing to offer in return...
Astrology is going to be my focus in 2010, so right now I'm soaking up lots of information and letting it simmer.

thank you for your continued activity in this sphere.

Minderwiz
01-10-2009, 20:07
Hi Dave,

Perhaps I'm being a little dense here (as usual) - Do you want participants to have copies of their parents charts? Or can you proceed with just Your own details and, say, your parents birth dates (which could provide most if not all of the information you are looking for)?

I've seen articles on similar parent/child relationships and they are very intriguing. So I hope you can get going and, of course, I'll participate if needed.

dadsnook2000
01-10-2009, 21:40
We can start this exploration using, primarily, our own charts. As a secondary resource we might choose to also use either our parents Sun and Moon positions or their actual charts----what ever one is comfortable with. In the case of using a parent's chart, it seems likely that we would use only a portion of their charts but that will remain to be seen.

In order to kick off this discussion I will use my own chart to illustrate some of the points that will likely provoke thought, interest and discussion. Like all of my activities, this idea just came to me after reading a short reference on the Internet about natal charts reflecting the family situation at birth. Naturally I did not buy into that author's approach, got to thinking about it, and decided to re-cast the discussion in a more contextual framework ---- that framework being the social/mundane situations that the parents were facing at that time of the child's birth and how that may have impacted their relationship with the child. So, I'm "winging it" with every expectation that it will all nicely work out. Typical of me. Dave

Minderwiz
01-10-2009, 23:31
Well off you go then LOL and we'll follow, make comments, put in our own take, etc.

dadsnook2000
02-10-2009, 05:30
I am attaching a simplified natal chart which shows a T-Square pattern with Saturn opposite Neptune/Sun and square Jupiter. The outer planets all occupy the 16th to 18th degrees, the Sun is at 21 degrees. Moon is at 3 Virgo.

As is known by astrologers, the 4-10 axis is called, among other things, the family axis. With natal Sun and Moon in the 4th, all things related to family, to core personal values, to understanding the core essence of any topical focus is a very key part of this chart.

Our first task is to see what this singular pattern means to me. Neptune relates to the social conscious, ideals, visions and misrepresentations. Saturn relates to conservatism, to structure and stability, to discipline. Together these two can represent a bridge (opposition) between ideals and structure, an ability to assess vague situations, to balance resources against proposed demands. There are a number of variations in how we can interpret this combination. When we add the square to Jupiter in the 6th, we see a need to expand these ideas/resources so as to produce (square) results and gains (Jupiter). I see this pattern as having resulted in a lifetime of work and accomplishment of the various and many goals that I have set for myself.

Our second task is to look at this chart as the situation in which my parents found themselves in at/before my birth. To do this we have to look at the time of 1936 (my year of birth) and the years prior to that.

** 1936 was a year when the financial depression that affected the world and the USA. The government was putting work programs into place but a large portion of the public was without work and income. A young couple had to be brave, resourceful and hopeful to undertake a family in those times --- all attributes of that T-Square.

** 1917 was the year when Neptune and Saturn conjoined around 4 Leo, a period in which World War I was the main event of the time, when great dreams ran aground against reality. My parents were themselves children at that time, having been born in 1912 and 1913. Following the war years they witnessed the proliferation of cars, radio and the introduction of airplanes, along with great social change. It was a time of excitement but also a time when some had much and many had little. There was promise, hope, and expectations.

** 1920 found Jupiter conjunct Neptune at 10 Leo, promise and expectation was running high, the social war against alcohol was being waged, saloons and social taboos were being tested. The US economy was expanding. This was prior to my parents becoming teens, but also a time when they must have noticed the excitement of those changing times.

** 1921 found Jupiter conjunct Saturn in early Libra. This pairing pointed to every person's sense of entitlement based on working for what they wanted.

These social patterns, based on major planet cycles, persisted until their next repetition decades later. By the time of my parents marriage and my birth in the mid-30's, we see that Saturn had reached an opposition to Neptune --- the excitement and promise of the 1917-thru-1920's was being severely challenged by the depression and financial collapse of the banking system. Surely it was a gloomy period. A similar view could be seen relative to the Neptune/Jupiter and Saturn/Jupiter cycles that shortly followed, the promises of 15 years earlier in their childhood had turned to sour grapes in their early married life. Only the cycle-of-hope based on hard work (Saturn and Jupiter) remained. Jupiter had completed 3/4's of its cycle and was in the closing square; how to run/conduct the business of one's life was a skill that had been developed and had to be proven. This manifested in my Dad's many and varied jobs as he supported his family and acquired his own home. (Actually, many homes, as he both worked a job and built houses in his spare time. We moved as each house was completed and sold).

What was instilled in me, relative to the times they grew up in and relative to the manner in which they had to conduct their life, was that one had to be imaginative, willing to address any challenge, work hard, to seize any/all opportunities, and to fight for one's dreams. Note that the Neptune/Saturn conjunction and the Neptune/Jupiter conjunction occurred in my second house---the house of personal values and possessions, maintenance of funds and definition of what one holds dear.

Having developed this context of understanding my parents through my chart, it is easier to better see my chart as it presents my "potential" for me to seek and attain. It helps me better understand the context of my parents charts and their times.

My dad's Sun was at 2 Leo, the point where Neptune and Saturn met, his Mars at my Moon. My mother's N.Node was conjunct my Saturn, her Pluto on my Ascendant. These are interesting tie-ins for me, but not necessary to understanding how their lives set the tone and background for my life.

Is anyone else up to exploring their chart in this manner? Dave

dadsnook2000
03-10-2009, 00:31
For AJ and others who wish to participate, I'm not going to leave you alone and unassisted in this venture. But, I do need you to 1) say "Me, I'd like to look at my parent's influence through my natal chart", 2) provide a natal chart if it is not already listed in the permanent postings at the top of this forum, and 3) provide a dialog/feedback. This latter part is so necessary as it is discouraging to put work into something and get no answer back from the big black Internet void out there. Dave

Minderwiz
03-10-2009, 19:18
Yes, I know how you feel Dave,

I'll try and join in, later today, (been very busy recently) but you know me and those outer planets LOL.

I have a Leo conjunction of Saturn and the planetoid Pluto, (7 degrees separation) and a Mars Pluto conjunction (2 degrees) giving a wide Saturn/Mars at 8.5 degrees) I also have a Moon/Saturn opposition (separation 10 minutes)

Uranus in Gemini sextiles Saturn and trines the Moon. Uranus also trines my Libra Sun, which is just out of orb for a trine with the Moon but obviously can be pushed. Neptune in Libra sextiles Mars and Pluto in Leo.

I'll post a chart for this later. I don't have exact birth charts for my parents but can provide the main planetary placements, with the Moon as a guestimate.

I'll let you run through with how you would approach the issue and make comments. Incidentally what do you think of the much touted 'conception chart' in relation to this and as a alternative what about the lunation prior to birth ?

Minderwiz
03-10-2009, 23:26
I've attached a copy of my chart for reference

My Father was born on 24 September 1911 (Newcastle-under-Lyme, England)
My Mother was born on 21 February 1909 (Manchester, England)

I don't have verified times for either.

I was born on 24 October 1947

dadsnook2000
04-10-2009, 00:30
There are a couple of approaches to constructing a "conception chart" which I have explored some time ago. For me, the results were inconclusive. What I have been experimenting with lately is the use of Solar Returns and Daily Angles Charts. This is done by doing a converse solar return (going backwards from birth for one year) and then going forward through the daily angles charts until you get to the birth MC position which occurs about 9 months and 2 weeks earlier to your actual birth chart's MC. Doesn't this time frame sound interesting?

I haven't run enough of these charts to offer any conclusions other than they seem interesting.

In terms of this post's topic, I tend to use only the major aspects between the mid-and-outer planets, with a focus on any that might be angular, and to go back to their cyclic conjunction points. Using natal patterns that are close in terms of their aspect orbs seems to be a good focus, also. We are looking not for many patterns but only the key patterns that link to one's basic life themes. Dave

Minderwiz
04-10-2009, 02:00
Well my Saturn is angular, although on the twelfth house side. but only 2 degrees 20 mins from the Ascendant (and of course the Moon is a similar distance from the Descendant, in the sixth). The dreaded Chiron is conjunct the IC, by 2.5 degrees. However I think that you, like me, sensibly eschew the wounded healer.

dadsnook2000
04-10-2009, 10:56
Minderwiz, your most significant mid-or-outer planet is Saturn on your Ascendant. Saturn trines Uranus within some 5 degrees, a little loose for my general use in orbs, but OK due to the angular Saturn's importance plus another factor which I'll get to a bit later. Due to their closeness, Pluto and Saturn would have conjoined near their natal position --- this was the case on August 11th of 1942 at 13 Leo. We can treat this pair as if still in that conjunction point of their cycle. With Mars also in the mix, so to speak, we would see Mars as as conjuncting, cyclewise, both Pluto and Saturn at their present natal chart positions in the 12th house. Mars would conjunct Pluto just a week or so after your birth and Saturn shortly after that.

One other key pattern in your chart is Saturn at the Ascendant, Venus at the IC, and Moon at the Descendant ---- a "paran" T-Square. Planets at adjacent or opposite angles, even if the degree-aspect isn't operative (i.e. 90 degrees) are called "paran" aspects; they rise, set, culminate and/or anti-culminate at the same time. They are considered very strong.

Our first step will be to look at only these (above) chart factors in terms of how they relate to you, Minderwiz.

A) Saturn-Venus-Moon, as a paran T-square, has a severe interpretation "Changes of mood, inhibitions in love-expression, lack of self-confidence, the capability to renounce. Resignation, the inclination to stand alone in love or marriage, etc." Now, before we all send Minderwiz sympathy cards, lets take a look at how this all might actually play out. Love and harmony at the IC can point one to dropping one nice situation and being attracted to the next, leading to the "stand alone in love" phrase whenever one gets caught between what one had and what one wants. Soon or later we learn to grab what we want before we let go of what we don't want quite as much. Plus, we have a lot yet to understand before we get carried away by one statement.

Saturn opposite the Moon suggests that one takes life seriously and prefers to develop a depth of understanding from which to take action. This can also incline one to seek out older people or younger people so that one's depth of understanding can either by sought from others or given to others as a basis for interaction. This placement requires (a Saturn word) a plan, a self-discipline, a cautionary approach to life such as operating on familiar ground. One may choose a spouse who reflects (Moon word) the qualities of one of the parents, although the rules you grew up with will not be the rules that govern your future and your family.

We can summarize all of this, before we even go on to the other factors that we will cover, as seeing these patterns being expressed as one who takes relationships seriously, values them, want harmony and beauty to be solid and conventional, looks for others to mirror their expectations and wishes, and will seek to always iron out any differences to maintain a sense of calm in his world.

B) The Saturn-sextile-Uranus pattern; Sextiles seek to understand and to communicate/moderate varied energies. Associated with knowledge and its gathering or dissemination, this combination requires self-discipline and skills in ones work with others (professionalism) as others tend to see you as the one who knows what to do or how something works. This suggests positions of leading, instruction, training, etc. as being fields of endeavor. You will enjoy socializing with those who have significant credentials of their own, rather than socializing with those whom you teach.

C) The heavy stuff in the 12th; Mars, Pluto (and Saturn) is indeed a "heavy" pattern according to the books ---- anger, control, severity. But, as a part of everyday life we cannot typically live within these "words." Let us instead consider word groupings such as "effort, intensity or curiosity, persistence." Or, "building, control, structure". Or, "physical action, application of force, channeled direction." Cast these words in a 12th house setting and we can see many realistic and constructive possibilities --- research, cybernetics, martial arts, construction, teaching, counseling, managing, "special forces" people in the military, sports figures, etc. all acting quietly, or in solitary positions without direct guidance, behind the scenes but effective in one-on-one situations.

**** Now, lets look at this chart in terms of the situation of your parents at the time of your birth. These same patterns will likely have a much different nuance when applied to them.

D) Saturn-Moon-Venus; a sharp divide of some sort is indicated here as the drain on resources versus the needs of the moment seems to have required a shift of priorities for the resulting "harmonization of a new life in the home" (Venus at the IC). Following the war years, much of the economical picture was murky at best, jobs were scarce, a conversion from a military focus to a commercial focus had to be organized, so new parents probably had a tough situation to cope with.

E) The Saturn-sextile-Uranus pattern suggests that pre-war jobs were much in chaos as new technology and management teams tried to plan, incorporate and fund rebuilding and start-up situations. Were your parents ready for the new changes or for competing for old jobs/skills that were being done away with or pursued by too many others? What choices should one make in seeking new work, in preparing for new requirements?

F) In Early May of 1942, Uranus and Saturn conjoined at 29 Taurus (later to be in your 10th house near your N.Node) suggesting that the upcoming year and years would see changes in the status quo. On the war front, 1942 saw the tide turn against the Germans, and improved armaments and technologies were being developed to have a later effect. The conjunction point would later be opposite your natal Jupiter position. (Your fathers natal Jupiter was a few degrees away at your natal IC position). For you, opportunities would be linked to your ability to recognize coming changes in societies needs. For your father (or mother, perhaps), much would have occurred at that time to make him/her/them impress upon you the need to be prepared for change in your life. (For you, Saturn will strategically prepare for the changes that Uranus points out, for the 12th house may be "hidden" but it is also the house of preparation for new things). At that point in time, transiting Jupiter (21 Gemini) was trine your natal Moon position. This suggests that your mother might have played a role in your education and the subtle recognition/encouragement to plan for change in your life.

In summary, it might be from your perspective that your parents were only partially successful in adapting the wholesale changes of their world but were able to instill in you the need to be able to do what they had hoped to do for themselves. Your parent's Suns were opposed to each other, your dad's Sun in your 1st house opposite your mom's Sun in the 7th. They seemed to take satisfaction in your accomplishments.

Since so much of this touches on personal feelings and impressions, the list will have to accept that you may not choose to comment on some of this material. PS --- a sudden thought or question, "Did your parents take on very different work after your birth than what they had done earlier?"
Dave

Minderwiz
05-10-2009, 00:59
There's a lot there Dave, so I'll try and comment on it as best I can, though it might require some breaks between posts whilst I think it over!. It's also difficult to be objective about yourself.

Comments:

A). Yes, I agree that the main feature of my chart is the angularity of Saturn, Moon and Venus. No I've never had problems with mood changes or ever felt that was a feature of me. Though I am very sensitive to changes in other people's moods. Inhibitions and lack of self confidence were severe problems of childhood but tended to recede from age 13 or so and virtually went following my first Saturn return. Yes I have a strong independent streak and I got married just before my first Saturn return. Yes I do (or did) take life seriously and yes I was a planner (though never as much as my Virgo Ascendant daughter) As I've grown older my Leo side has exerted itself more and I am more relaxed, especially over the last 10 years or so. Yes familar ground is nice BUT there's a clear side of me that loves the unusual, unexpected and unfamiliar. Yes a fair summary of my approach to beauty and harmony. I hate disharmony!!

My wife does have a Pisces Moon, so that's something of a relection of my mother, however temperamentally she's very different from either of my parents.

B) Yes I'm a retired Lecturer, and the love of learning is defintely there. As to not socialising with those whom I taught - I used to love it and I married one of my students :) Last few years I've tended not to so much. I have put my love of learning down to Mercury beseiged by the two benefics and conjunct the South Node. My Aquaries Moon is also Almuten of the MC

C) I don't get angry easily if at all. Indeed I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of times I've 'lost it' in 62 years (and still have a couple of fingers left over). I can deal with confrontational situation best when I am in control (Saturn again). The 'Leo' nature suggests that an outlet is through play. Mars for me seems to be 'in reserve'. I don't often assert myself, and almost never in anger. However when I do need to assert, I do so with purpose and control and can be very effective. Yes, I do like to operate in the background and again Colleges are 12th house institutions from the point of view of 'employment' rather than as places you go as part of your education.

Yes, I do prefer one to one situations.

OK that's the first three. I'll have a think about the rest and then perhaps post my take on them, followed by my take on the approach.

Minderwiz
05-10-2009, 19:00
Sorry for the delay - not so much because of thinking but starting house cleaning :(

D) Well yes, there was a transition from forces to home life, but then that was a fairly universal experience at that time LOL. My parents married in 1944, when both of them were in the armed forces. At the time Saturn was slowing down towards its Station Retrograde, which it reached on October 24th 1944, three years to the day before my birth.

On demobilisation my parents started a small business and did live on the premises, so home was important LOL

E)As above my parents weren't married before the war but No, new technologies, etc don't seem to have any effect on either of them. Both my dad's trade and my mum's job at the immediate pre war time are jobs which are still going now and have only begun to be affected by technology (in my mum's case in the last 10 years or so).

F) I'm really not sure of this - I don't really consciously recognise it. Yes my mother influenced my pre school education but then mother's do. I don't think they impressed anything about the need for change and adaption but I can't say that they did not. It's never been a big issue for me though (or an issue at all). 'societies need' is a vague concept and could mean anything so I haven't got any direct comment there.

Looking back, I actually think they adapted to the changed world very well. When I was about 8 My parents took on the local post office, a venture which they saw through to retirement and one that gave them a better quality of life. That actually gave me a very settled and stable home life. They certainly encouraged me to make the best of my opportunities, as in my dad's youth he had been unable too. So I got the support to go on to University.

Yes my mum's sun does lie in my seventh but my dad's sun is in my second very near the third house cusp. The signs are antiscion to each other, though the degree separation is too wide to count strongly.

On your last question, yes and no. It depends how much after my birth LOL. As I said above the change in their work/lives came when I was around 8 and it was to less demanding work rather than moe demanding.

dadsnook2000
06-10-2009, 02:59
Interesting, not as illustrative as one might hope in terms of my expectations. Thanks for your detailed reply. I think we need a couple of volunteers so that we can expand our play with this concept. A few more examples might highlight some factors that we need to better understand. It might be that the 4-10 axis needs to be more populated, or that close groupings (which indicate the start of a cycle) aren't as easy/clear to understand, or that maybe this idea just isn't worth exploring.

So, volunteers, stand up, hands up, take a chance on either learning something about yourself or becoming further confused in our astrological playpen. Dave

Minderwiz
06-10-2009, 05:33
Well it's always difficult to be objective about yourself, so others might see some of that differently, though I have been as honest as I can.

I think the idea of using the slower moving planets to see if there were tie ins with events in the lives of parents, is an interesting one. I certainly wouldn't want to dismiss it and it's a possible good use for Uranus and Neptune as chronocrators.

lilangel09
07-10-2009, 08:38
If you don't mind having a complete beginner volunteer, I'm up for it. :)

Mother: 19 April 1954 11:30AM (Penang, Malaysia)
Father: 2 October 1955 unknown tob (Saigon, Vietnam)

Me: 2 August 1989

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=53663&page=9&pp=10

dadsnook2000
07-10-2009, 21:42
Thank you for posting. I have about two days of work remaining on a project and then I'll address your charts. I hope that we may all find some inspiration and learning from this kind of playful exercise ---- its how we push our personal limits in astrology and find new ideas to consider. Dave