Aeclectic Tarot Forum - Can someone explain these darn Thoth Courts?

Richard

28-03-2003, 13:41

From what I understand, the problem is not that Crowley mixed up the Knight and the King, it's that Waite got them confused (or not - in the Pictorial Key he says that the Knight should refer to older men and the King to younger). If you're going by divinitory meanings, the Thoth Knight is the same as the RWS Knight, and the Thoth Prince equals the RWS King. If you're going by elemental attributions, the Thoth Knight is Fire and the Thoth Prince is Air. But the Waite Knight really SHOULD be Fire, as well.
The confusion seems to stem from how the Golden Dawn viewed them, which seems to be Knight and Queen as father and mother, and King and Page as son and daughter.
But, as I said, if you're just using it for readings, none of that should matter; Knights are Knights.
About the Queen, I must confess I have no idea what you mean...have you been using the Cosmic Tribe deck?

Emily

28-03-2003, 13:51

I've only just started to use the Thoth too but I read the Thoth Knights as Kings, the Queen still as Queen, the Thoth Prince as the Knight and the Thoth Princess as the Page. I'm still getting my head round it too, I'm still very much influenced by Rider Waite symbolism and so are most of my books - The Rohrig introduced me to this system and for me it does seem to work. :)

coldsuns

29-03-2003, 09:52

Shouldnt be the Prince is the King and the Knight remain as a Knight? As the King was a Prince. And the Prince somehow will become the King. Knight is a soldier or "slave" that works for the Prince/King. Queen remain as a Queen. But is Page a servant/maid or rather a Princess?

jema

29-03-2003, 12:52

knight=fire
queen=water
prince=air
princess=earth

i find it easy to simply use those elements for the courts and think about the courts as Fire of Water for example = knight of cups.

but if you want to translate them to RWS cards it would be like this:

knight=king
queen=queen
prince=knight
princess=page

or at least that is how i use them:)

Kiama

30-03-2003, 05:26

Thanks for the answers guys... I'll try and use Jema's version of it, since it seems simplest at the moment. I am trying to get my head rounf this whole 'Fire of Water' thingy... How does that work?

My boyfriend has been suggesting that it is related in soe way to Quasi-elements. So,

Earth of Air is: Dust
Air of Fire is: Smoke
Fire of Water is: Steam
Water of Earth is: Mud
Earth of Fire is: Magma
Air of Water is: Rain

This seemed like a good idea at the time, but then I realised that Earth of Air (Princess of Swords) would be the same as Air of Earth (Knight of Pentacles) and this just doesn't make sense.

Then I read Crowley's Book of Thoth, about the Knight of Pentacles (Or King if you're going for Rider Waite version) and he talks about Fire of Earth being about earthquakes and mountains, and I can't see how disruptive earthquakes fit into the Knight of Pentacles' steadfast, responsible, business-like meanings.

Can anyone help me out on this one aswell please?

Kiama

Strange2

30-03-2003, 11:01

Here's a good article from the online Llewellyn Journal about those perplexing court cards, as interpreted by the Golden Dawn, some aspects of which the Thoth deck incorporates:

"Hidden and Secret Meanings: The Court Cards"
http://www.llewellynjournal.com/article/387/

This article also discusses the elemental correspondences (the sixteen sub-elemental counterchanges of fire, water, air, and earth), and their importance in Geomancy (divinations by patterns in the Earth).

Hope this article helps more than confuses!

Silverlotus

30-03-2003, 11:19

Thanks for the link, Strange2. That article cleared up a few things for me, but confused a few others. Why are the astrologically atributes different in the Thoth and Golden Dawn system? In the RWS system, the Queen of Pentacles is Taurus, but the article lists the King as Taurus (which be the Page in the RWS system).

Hedera

30-03-2003, 14:12

Don't know if this helps, but I tend to look at the Thoth-ish court cards not as a sequence for four, with one court-person at the bottom and one at the top, but more as 2 pairs of people.
That gives me:
Princess + Prince
and
Queen + Knight.

I think of the princess and prince as more the 'learning' aspect of that suit, with the princess usually concerned with inner learning, and the prince more with relating to the outside world, learning how to put it into practice.
The queen and knight I see more as having mastered the quality of the suit, where the queen applies more to the inner qualities and the knight more to 'puttin' it out there'.

Does this make sense?

Kaz

30-03-2003, 14:39

hedera, you are right about that, thats also a way of looking at them, "old" knowledge (knight/queen) and "new" knowledge (prince/princess).
integrated in life by knight/queen and just acquired still toying with it by price/princess.
what jema says also works very well, you can combine both ways actually.
these two things are the way i look at courts, and i quite like it and it works well.

Strange2

30-03-2003, 18:57

In an effort to make some sense of the Thoth court card atttributes, I tried to analyze it in terms of the two components: the court personas, and the Tarot suits. Here's what I came up with.

Court card interpretations can be viewed as an expression of the human characteristic (the court persona), as they relate to and interact with the universal elements (the 4 Tarot suits).

Court Card Characteristics:

Knights (Kings) = Committed intention and initiative, Wisdom
Queens = Integration and adaptation, Instinct and understanding
Princes = Goals and progress, Controlled Thought
Princesses (Pages) = Manifestation and results, Energy expressed in matter

Suit Expressions:

Wands = Assertion and action
Cups = Creative inspiration and emotions
Swords = Intellectual and intuitive processes, communication
Disks = Resource allocation and tangible results

Elemental Correspondences:

Fire: Wands & Knights
Water: Cups & Queens
Air: Swords & Princes
Earth: Disks & Princesses

Some examples:

Princess of Swords = Earth of Air
Manifestation of results (Princess) from Intellectual and intuitive processes (Swords)
Interpretation = Intellectual results, decision maker, activist

Prince of Disks = Air of Earth
Goals (Prince) relating to resource allocation and tangible results (Earth)
Interpretation = Progress in planned growth, understanding cause (Prince) and effect (Earth), project manager

Breaking it down into the components seem to help me more readily grasp the basic energies of the Thoth court cards.

Rose

31-03-2003, 00:28

The Thoth deck is not my "comfort" deck. But, I do use elemental associations as one clue in determining what the court cards mean to me. So here's my attempt at a short explanation of the court card elemental associations. This is basically the method I use, but there are other methods out there.

1. Each element is associated with certain personality traits.

Water is the element of emotion, unconscious processes, feelings
Air is the element of the mind, thinking, and communication, intellect, reason
Earth is the element of body, practicality, material matters, physical well-being, sensory information
Fire is the element of will, creativity, enterprise, inspiration, energy, aggression

2. Each suit is associated with an element. For most decks this is--
Wands: Fire Cups: Water Swords: Air Pentacles: Earth

3. Each Rank of Court Card is also associated with an element.
Knights (Kings) -Fire
Queens-Water
Princes (Knights)-Air
Princesses (Pages)-Earth

Each Court Card can be thought as a mixture of its suit element and rank element. The suit element is the primary/dominant element. The primary personality traits associated with the suit, are modified by the element associated with the rank-but the suit's element is dominant. Some elements are compatible and strengthen each other, some are neutral, and others conflict with and weaken each other. Court card personalities that contain opposing elements may have internal conflicts.

For example the Queen of Wands is Water of Fire. She is primarily a wand's type personality. Her method of expressing her water side is controlled by the element of fire-she a dynamic person who nurtures people by energizing and inspiring them. The Knight (King) of Cups is Fire of Water. Being a Cup he is dominated by the Water element even though he has aspects of the element of Fire in his personality. The direct, forceful, energetic approach of the Fire element associated with the rank is somewhat thwarted by his dominant cup side. The Knight (King) of Cups rules and gets things done in a fatherly, diplomatic, subtle way. They are both mixtures of Water and Fire, but each one has a different dominant element and different personalities.

Rose

Richard

31-03-2003, 02:38

Thanks for the article, Strange2...I think Hulse is right here, as I said before...Knights are Knights, whether it's the Thoth deck or the RWS deck...the Kings of the RWS equal the Princes of the Thoth, both of them signifying Air...even though only coldsuns seems to agree.
I have to admit it threw me off when I got the Thoth deck at first, too...once I read a bit more and realized that it was the RWS that was off, everything became a lot clearer.

Kiama

31-03-2003, 04:09

*Confused* Darn Beastie Boy... Why couldn't he just leave the Court cards as they are goddamnit??!!! Knights = Knights, and Kings = Princes, but surely it should be Knights= Kings and Princes = Knights, since:

Queen = Water

and

Princess (Page) = Earth.

Why didn't he use polarities? So, Knight=King (Fire) To go with the Queen's Water, and Prince=Knight (Air,) to go with the Princesses' Earth...

Kiama

Kiama

31-03-2003, 05:55

Okay, I've just read the wonderful article.

I think I get it now... Just a quick question...

So, the only thing that's been changed are the titles, and the meanings stay the same as they were?

So, whist the King of Cups in RWS trad is now the Knight of CUps, the meaning is still the same no matter which trad you go for?

Kiama

jema

31-03-2003, 09:31

Originally posted by Richard

Knights are Knights, whether it's the Thoth deck or the RWS deck...the Kings of the RWS equal the Princes of the Thoth, both of them signifying Air

??? RWS kings is air??
i never knew this. i always thought the king was fire and RWS knight was air which is why i equal the Thoth knight with the RWS king.

Rose

31-03-2003, 12:33

Hope it's alright if I join in.

Read Hulse's article-developed a headache (it's a good article just more than my mind could absorb). Tried it again this morning--still a little confused.

At the risk of sounding like a babbling idiot:

Before the Golden Dawn, AND BEFORE CROWLEY AND WAITE DESIGNED THEIR DECKS, the traditional titles for the court cards were King, Queen, Knight, and Page.

Mathers,a founder of the Golden Dawn, revised the traditional titles of the court cards to King, Queen, Prince, and Princess. But the card that he called King was in fact equivalent to the traditional Knight and the card that he called Prince was equivalent to the title for the traditional King.

Crowley decided to go one step further and actually rename Mather's King to Knight.

Waite used the same system as Mather but went back to the original names. (Here's the babbling part) So Waite's King is equivalent to Crowley's Knight which is equivalent to Mather's King which is equivalent to the pre-Golden Dawn Traditional Knight.

In Chart Form corresponding court cards:

Traditional Mather Crowley Waite

Knight King Knight King
Queen Queen Queen Queen
King Prince Prince Knight
Page Princess Princess Page

In short Crowley's Knight is equivalent to Waite's King and Waite's Knight is equivalent to Crowley's Prince.

Out of curiosity I checked my books. The only specific reference I could find was in Hajo Banzhaf's book Key Words for the Crowley Tarot where he does state that the King in Waite's deck is equivalent to the Knight in Crowley's deck and Waite's Knight is equivalent to the Prince in Crowley's deck.

I'm going to go somewhere and scream now.
Rose

jema

31-03-2003, 14:27

*LOL*
no, rose! you did good. thanks for a very informative post.

Kiama

31-03-2003, 14:42

Thankyou Rose! I would tend to agree with you now that the Crowley Knight is the RWS King and Crowley Prince the RWS Knight...

It makes sense that the Knight (RWS) and Prince(Crowley) are Air together, simply because they have the same energies: They are both volatile and movement-oriented. As Crowley said himself, the Prince will then marry the Princess and thus become King, moving up one.

I finally understand these cards. Thankyou all so much!

Kiama

Cerulean

31-03-2003, 15:39

Tom Tadforlittle's table shows a traditional name and elemental attribute...then his own system for his tarot in the making. I actually found it a useful starting point to think of court energies.
I thought it was Crowley who did something as the 'air of water' emphasis in his description and Frieda Harris who incorporated those ideas in her pictures---so this was useful to me.

http://www.telp.com/tarot/hermits_tarot/hcourt.htm

I originally was looking for information on how Tom Tadforlittle and Mary Greer were writing a book on court cards.
If I see this information adds confusion, I'll amend my note
Mari H.
----------------------------------------------------------------

Richard

31-03-2003, 16:38

I'm trying not fight a lost battle or flog a dead horse here, but I can't resist adding one more thing in my defense.
In the Pictorial Key, Waite shows the suits starting with Kings, but I don't buy this; he also places the Fool in between Judgment and the World, saying all the while that that's not where it belongs.
Closer to the real order, I think, is his section on choosing a significator (p. 299), where he says, "A Knight should be chosen as the Significator if the subject of inquiry is a man of forty years old and upward; a King should be chosen for any male who is under that age."
Rachel Pollack, though, says this in 78 Degrees, p. 277: "People who have read Waite's Pictorial Key will remember his confusing assignation of Knights to men above forty, and Kings to younger men. The system comes from the Golden Dawn Kabbalistic Tarot. In that deck the Knights represent Fire, and Fire, as we might expect from an order of magicians, stands at the head of the suits. Therefore the Golden Dawn Knights represent mature men. But the Golden Dawn deck (and Crowley's Thoth Tarot) does not contain Kings, or for that matter, Pages, at all; it uses Knight, Queen, Prince, and Princess. It makes sense for a Prince to represent a male younger than a Knight. It does not make sense for a King to do so, and most readers do not follow Waite's intstructions on this point, even when using his deck."
I suppose I can buy that, as well.
OK, I'll shut up about it now.

Kiama

01-04-2003, 05:57

I have an excellent idea.

Each of us go get our Thoth decks.

Now, take out the Knights and Princes.

Now burn those cards.

Then, take plain cards to replace the burnt cards.

Draw on those plain cards YOUR new courts, whether you want to assign the Knights to Air or Fire (Its that damn 'is it fire or air'? debate again...! First we get it with the Wands, now with the Courts!!) is up to you.

Hey presto, a Thoth deck which isn't as confusing for everybody.

:D

Kiama

jema

01-04-2003, 12:12

Originally posted by Richard
OK, I'll shut up about it now.
nooo, don't shut up. i enjoy hearing other views apart from my own set ways and i really appreciate this whole thread since i learnt a lot from it and it made me sit down and really question what i think and why i think that way. so i got good stuff in my journal now:)

Richard

01-04-2003, 16:11

Eh, I think I'm with Kiama on this...although the way she worded it made me think...I think the problem here (for me, at least), is that Thoth is the deck I started on, and I didn't get RWS until months later, so that it was never a matter of getting the Thoth to fit RWS, but the reverse...
So tell you what...you burn your Thoth cards, I'll burn my RWS. Everbody's happy, and the Tarot Matriarchy reigns supreme!

purplelady

11-04-2003, 17:40

"Tis confusing!
However , this is the order I chose to put them in:

princess
knight
queen
prince

In other words, the princess is the page, the knight is the knight, the queen is the queen , and the prince is the king.

Take a look at the knight of cups, doesn't he remind you of the rider-waite page of cups just a little? Also, all the knights are just that -knights in armour on a horse etc. The princes all ride on opulent chariots which to me seems more kingly. At least that's how I used to read them. But now I can either chose to keep that or become even more confused!
Perhaps the Queen is a widow, or sovereign, the princess and prince are her children , and the knight serves her ?

Emily

12-04-2003, 11:43

I've enjoyed reading everyone's idea's of the Knight, Queen, Prince and Princess but I wouldn't be able to read them any other way now - I see the Knight as a Warrior King, all of them ready for battle or have been in battle and worthy companions of the Queen, followed by the Prince (Knight) and Princess (Page).

paradoxx

15-04-2003, 04:19

adding an extra court card would be the best thing to do here. The fact is, without a king card, the suits seem incomplete, but i like the knights.

my preference for a modified court card system:

Jack and/or page-its alot to ask we add one more let alone three more cards to a suit but that adding up to 28 total courts (7 courts x 4 suits) but i wanted to add all potential candidates. but in relation to the family, perhaps this is a new born child, adopted child, cousin, or friend in relation to the rest of the interpretations.

princess-daughter
prince-son
Knight-guardian
Queen-mother
King-father

I relate Crowleys knight to being a king for certain readings. the word knight assigns a specific energy that is not always the highest court. But guardian is a good defnition for divniniation (since your guardian may not be your father).

The Knight may also be the Queens brother, therefore the prince and princesses uncle.

just as crowley made his interpretations, we must make our own, what others say are things we already knew, they just said it differently than we do.

Richard

15-04-2003, 16:26

Hi, Paradoxx!
That's an interesting idea, and I've seen another deck (can't remember which one) that did that, except they added the "Mentor" card. The problem is that it turns it from a Jewish (or "Jewish"...Crowley's understanding of Kabbalah was, uh...innovative, let's say) Kabbalistic system into a Christian one, as the fifth card would necessarily correspond elementally to Spirit, and Kabbalistically to the Hebrew letter Shin, making the Divine Name YHShWH (Yeheshua, Jesus) rather than YHWH.

paradoxx

22-04-2003, 21:01

The only way to get around that is to denumerate the court cards and let the person who is working with them decide what goes where. That way no one can complain except for those who don't like to think too much.

Hedera

23-04-2003, 04:58

and I've seen another deck (can't remember which one) that did that, except they added the "Mentor" card.

Richard, perhaps you are thinking of the Parrott deck?
I have it, like it (weird, I know, I know....), used it a lot for a while, still go back to it sometimes, when Thoth feels a bit too harsh but I want something Thothy. Some of the minors are a bit primitive, and I don't quite get some of the Wand minors, but I love the majors and the courts. A very cheerful deck, lots of funny details. And I love the 8 of cups so much more than the thoth 8 of cups.

I considered leaving the mentor cards out (who needs *more* court cards??), but from the first spread they said such nice things to me, I decided to leave them in.

As for Thoth court cards in general (or any court card, for that matter); after reading this thread, I more or less gave up putting them in *any* order, I just sort of read 'em as I see 'em....;)

Actually, that's not quite true. In the Parrott deck, for instance, I see the Mentors as the things/experiences/lessons that cause you to mature from the prince/princess stage to the queen/knight stage.

The thing is, in readings it is rare that more than one court card shows up, so I can get away with not bothering about the relationship between the different court cards.

Rose

23-04-2003, 11:31

Hedera,

You may already be aware of this. Thom Parrott has an unpublished book on the Parrott Tarot available to read on his website.

http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Atrium/7486/

Rose

Hedera

23-04-2003, 12:00

Yes, I was, Rose, but thank you! :)

Unfortunately, some of the links to parts of the book don't work for me, so I can't read the whole thing. I sent them an email about this, and also about 2 of my cards which have a blue line running through them, but I didn't get a reply.

Anyway, what I would *really* like is a book by Ms Parrott, if she is still alive, about the symbolism in the deck. Some stuff is quite peculiar!

Cascade_Jon

24-04-2003, 21:47

Eww, can't say that I like the caveman artist quality of that deck! But, to each their own. I'll stick with RWS and Thoth for my money.

rom

22-06-2003, 04:56

Originally posted by jema
knight=fire
queen=water
prince=air
princess=earth

i find it easy to simply use those elements for the courts and think about the courts as Fire of Water for example = knight of cups.

but if you want to translate them to RWS cards it would be like this:

knight=king
queen=queen
prince=knight
princess=page

or at least that is how i use them:)

me too i believe this is the right way
but should remember these are translations [interpretations]

rom

22-06-2003, 05:01

Originally posted by Kiama
I have an excellent idea.

Each of us go get our Thoth decks.

Now, take out the Knights and Princes.

Now burn those cards.

Then, take plain cards to replace the burnt cards.

Draw on those plain cards YOUR new courts, whether you want to assign the Knights to Air or Fire (Its that damn 'is it fire or air'? debate again...! First we get it with the Wands, now with the Courts!!) is up to you.

Hey presto, a Thoth deck which isn't as confusing for everybody.

:D

Kiama

this is not an original idea
after the french revolution EMPEROR EMPRESS cards turnen out to be FATHER MOTHER cards while MAGUS and HIGH PRIESTESS turned to be Grandfather Grand mother cards [see in Cavendish book TAROT]

bagheera444

24-08-2003, 06:17

Hi i'm new but decided to enter into the fray at this point .

i noticed the exchange of ideas about the arrangement of the court cards specifically the knights .

Crowley's move away from traditional tiltles from kings in RWS deck to his interpretation called knights .

I think he did this to express the universe as changing dynamic force the knight is virile creative- king is static established

the laws of marriage prevent you from marrying within your own clan to prevent inbreeding,etc . intuitively perhaps we were aware of this a long time ago

By providing a wide gene pool to improve the families lot the king would arrange marriages to ensure his daughter had the the best possilble chance of providing an heir

I think Crowley's uses history to explain how he thought the knights function was superior to that of the king hence his position in the thoth deck .

At first sight it would show the knight in a higher position to that of the king.traditionaly we believe the king as being that yod of tetragrammation

the knight would take the kingdom by force marry the daughter maybe kill the king ,but immediately is enthroned , the knight becomes the highest and so the cycle goes .

the knight provides the same function as the king in other decks the creator ,inseminator ,the originator as reflected in the arrangement with Queen ,prince princess to follow,its just that

crowley brings his own ideas to the tarot and switching between pack identities sometimes catches us off guard like talking english then switching to french.

formula of teragrammaton and other ideas on sub elements , court cards, as has been suggested by others might help to settle this down

hope this has helped

Bagheera

Leopard

26-03-2005, 22:14

Wow.... i'm still digesting all that thread... phew.... have taken my Thoth court cards out... studied the images and vibrations... and have come to my own view:

Knight
Queen
Prince
Princess

I came here for clarification not more confusion... lol. Must say you guys are good at doing my head in... ;)

Happy Travels!
Leopard

wizzle

24-05-2005, 02:37

delete

wizzle

24-05-2005, 17:57

As a follow-up to my previous post, I got seriously concerned about the K of cups (Thoth) fitting into the cardinal/fixed/mutable scheme since he had that dratted crab in his chalice. BUT, he also shows a peacock in the lower right of the card.

After surfing until 2 AM last night, I found that the peacock is assocated with Jupiter, old ruler of Pisces. Maybe this knight is just a little confused. Hey, that could BE the whole symbolism, no? A quest for ....."um.....ah......gee, these both look good." Or perhaps a new saying? "A crab in the cup is worth a peacock in the whatever."

Rusty Neon

24-05-2005, 18:07

The Thoth deck is so tightly aligned with astrology for the pips and trumps, that I can't believe the court cards aren't as well. And I think Liz Greene cracked the code perfectly, i.e. kings/princes are the fixed signs, queens the cardinal signs and kights the mutable signs.

It's important to keep in mind that in the Golden Dawn system - which Crowley follows for the minor arcana - a King, Queen or Knight doesn't correspond to one single sign of the zodiac, but, rather, the last decan of one sign and the first two decans of the next sign in the circle. For example, the Queen of Wands corresponds to the last decan (the last 10 degrees) of Pisces and the first two decans (the first 20 degrees) of Aries. Thus, the Queen of Wands isn't just cardinal Fire (Aries) but, also, mutable Water (Pisces) in part.

wizzle

24-05-2005, 22:33

Thanks for the additional insight Rusty. I'm not much up on Golden Dawn thinking. The decan thing adds even more subtulty to these rich and subtle cards. Can you recommend some on-line resources for Golden Dawn 101?

Rusty Neon

24-05-2005, 22:38

wizzle,

here's a good starting point:

http://www.supertarot.co.uk/astro/attrib.htm

Rusty Neon

24-05-2005, 22:49

For more detail, below is a link to the text of _Book T_, which is one of the main tarot manuscripts of the Golden Dawn. Book T gives details of the GD's astrological correspondences for the minor arcana and those correspondences were adopted by Crowley for the Thoth deck.

http://www.tarot.org.il/Library/Mathers/Book-T.html

wizzle

26-05-2005, 15:27

Rusty,

Thanks again for the links.

After a little study, I decided I was a better astrologer than taro-ist. I have a few comments about the Golden Dawn stuff...

1. Back when I was studying astrology decans were confined strictly to their elements. The first decan of Aires is aires/aires, the second aires/leo, the third aires/sag. So on for the rest of the elements. Just start with the sign and then go on to the next sign with that element for the second decan and to the third for the third decan. Piece O cake. I admit this was a zillion years ago and based on Allen Leo's books but I doubt the stars have changed all that much.
2. The "decans" as presented for each court card are do-able for me but have nothing to do with classical asto decans. It's just the last 10 degrees of the preceeding sign with the rest of the court card attributes in the first 20 degrees of the astro sign....aligned as per Liz Greene (see my previous thread).

MikeTheAltarboy

08-11-2005, 19:42

On the site www.supertarot.co.uk, it gives a zodiac sign for each of the court cards. Those given are consistant with what Crowley wrote on page 35 of The Book of Thoth (at least in my edition): These cards have many manifestations in natural phenomena. Thus, the Knight of Wands has the attribution of Aries, and represents swift violence of onset, the lightning flash. But the airy part of Fire is sympathetic to Leo, the steady force of energy, the Sun. Lastly, in the watery part of Fire, the harmony is with Sagittarius, which shows the fading, spiritualized reflection or translucence of the image of Fire, and this suggests the Rainbow.
However, those aren't the signs assigned to the cards.
He goes on to say, on page 149:
...It might well be expected that the elemental attribution would harmonize with the Zodiacal attribution; but it is not so. For instance, one might anticipate that the fiery part of Fire would refer to the most active of the fiery signs, namely, Aries. On the contrary, it represents the last decan of Scorpio and the first two of Sagittarius, which is the watery part of Fire in the Zodiac, and the mildest influence.
?!?!?!!
Confusion!

I do agree with those who said the RWS knights are the same as the Thoth knights; and the RWS Kings are the Thoth princes. The knights on horses, are initial impetus; the kings, seated and stable, are the balanced child of the knight and queen.

lelandra

09-11-2005, 07:03

Back when I was studying astrology decans were confined strictly to their elements. The first decan of Aires is aires/aires, the second aires/leo, the third aires/sag. So on for the rest of the elements. Just start with the sign and then go on to the next sign with that element for the second decan and to the third for the third decan. Piece O cake. I admit this was a zillion years ago and based on Allen Leo's books but I doubt the stars have changed all that much.

That's because the decans system used by the Golden Dawn is classically known as "faces". To the extent that "the stars changed" they did so before Allen Leo :) Faces were used in talisman making during the renaissance era.

Here is an excellent site with renaissance era quotations and illustrations:
http://www.tarot.org.il/Decans/
Here's an article that goes into the historical usage:
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/heritage/egyptians2.html
From Christopher Warnock's site (he has a correspondence course in rennaisance astrology):
http://www.renaissanceastrology.com/chartweek1-20-03.html
This post by tyagi lays out the confusions in a fairly detailed way:
http://www.luckymojo.com/esoteric/occultism/divination/ny200401tarotandastrology.txt

I make no guarantees that all this will do anything other than just muddy things more :)

Lelandra (Joan Cole)

kwaw

09-11-2005, 11:10

1. Back when I was studying astrology decans were confined strictly to their elements. The first decan of Aires is aires/aires, the second aires/leo, the third aires/sag. So on for the rest of the elements. Just start with the sign and then go on to the next sign with that element for the second decan and to the third for the third decan. Piece O cake. I admit this was a zillion years ago and based on Allen Leo's books but I doubt the stars have changed all that much.

This method, which though known about in medieval Western Astrology, is that used in Indian Astrology, it was popularised in the west in the late 19th and 20th century by the english theosophically influenced school of astrologers [leo, carter, et al].

In traditional western astrology the faces are ruled by planets, running in Chaldean order starting with Mars as ruler of the first face of Aries. If you know the Chaldean order then you can easily work out which planet rules which face if you remember Mars the ruler of Aries rules also the first face of Aries, ergo the second face must be the Sun [next planet in the chaldean order], third Venus, fourth [first face of Taurus] Mercury etc.

Another way of working it out is through the relation with the days of the week, that is Mars, which is Tuesday rules the first face of Aries, the next day Wednesday, ruled by Mercury, is the first face of Taurus, Thursday - Jupiter - first face of Gemini, Friday - Venus - first face of Cancer, etc until you get to Saturn - Saturday - first face of Pisces, then you jump to Sunday - Sun - Second face of Aries, Monday - Moon - second face of Taurus, round to Thursday - Jupiter second face of Pisces and then you jump with Friday - Venus - to third face of Aries, around the third faces of the zodiac again ending with Tuesday - Mars - third face of Pisces.

Of course astrologically speaking the fact that the first face of mars is ruled by Mars is not technically the same as Mars in Aries; although some, and I think Crowley among them, do often interpret the meaning of the face that way.

Kwaw

wizzle

09-11-2005, 17:06

Thanks very much for your links and discussions of the faces. I'm going to look into those after I've done about 30 books... wicca, qabala, high magick... on and on. Does it ever stop? So much to learn, so little time.

This thread was the one that got me interested in learning about the qabala, and I've only scratched the surface. I'm very grateful to ya'll who are more knowledgeable and are willing to share your thoughts and insights. Thanks again.

Shaymus

01-01-2006, 15:48

This is how I've settled in my feeble mind, the court cards in the Thoth deck:

Keep in mind all your associations you have about what the various elements (fire, water, air and earth) bring to the table. I think (at least in my mind) that I was onto something as for example, when I associated my significator according to my birthdate, I got Prince of Swords (I knew that already), and the Trump associated with my birthday week (or 10-12 days around it) was the Star and the pip card was the 6 of swords (science). And that freaked me out, cuz I am one, a scientist. Anyway, food for thought:

Knight of wands: strong in fire; lacks air/earth; and somewhat weak in water
Queen of wands: strong in fire; lacks air/earth; but somewhat stronger than the knight in water
Prince of wands: strong in fire; lacks earth; weak in air, but has some

Knight of cups: strong in water; lacks earth; weak in fire and air
Queen of cups: strong in water; lacks fire/earth; weak in air
Prince of cups: strong in water; lacks fire/earth; weak in air

Knight of swords: strong in air; lacks water; weak in fire/earth
Queen of swords: strong in air, lacks fire; weak in water/earth
Prince of swords: strong in air, lacks fire/water; weak in earth

Knight of disks: strong in earth; lacks water/air; weak in fire
Queen of disks: strong in earth; lacks air; weak in water
Prince of disks: strong in earth; lacks water/air; weak in fire

I put this list together from astrological correspondences found by looking at the date correspondences of the court cards and matching them with the trumps and the pip cards for the dates.

I have made a table of all of this, including the associations with the pip cards. If anyone wants it, I can email it to you. It is in microsoft word.

Happy readings.
Shaymus.

Shaymus

01-01-2006, 15:52

Oh, forgot to mention about the Princesses,

I think they have a little bit of everything (read Thoth), but some more than others.

happy readings
Shaymus

ravenest

10-02-2006, 06:51

Well, you can tell I'm not a regular Thoth user, since I just don't understand this whole Knight/Queen change...

Does the Knight still have the same meaning as the King it should have been? Or does it take on the Queen's meaning, considering it is in the place the Queen used to be? Or does it take on the Knight that is now the Prince's old meaning?

And does the Queen take on the old King's meaning, or does she keep the old Queen's meaning?

Sorry if its a stupid question, but this really does confuse me.

Kiama

Hi Kiama

I reckon ya gotta study these things from a thelemic perspective (Crowley WAs one you know ... eventually)

This is the NEW Aeon, one of its aspects is not only the equality of men and women, but a specific and new and worthwhile function and relationship of
both. What are Kings and Queens any way, who is ruling the roost here? Are we talking about an internal co-equal Ancient Egyptian system of regency (even though externaly it WAS the King who was the boss (with 2 or 3 exceptions), is it medieval where the king rules and the queen sits next to him and shuts up? "behind every great man is a good woman" , bit of a platitude?

Women had less power, now they are coming closer to equality. men have had the power .... hey! what's gonna happen to us in the new Aeon? WE wont be redundent will we? Perhaps we wont even allow equality, maybe we will give it all up and become subservient S.N.A.G.S. ?

Not on ya life? Ever noticed how when guys are 'firing' they get all hyped up, adventuroues gung ho! Yeah! Well thats the knight spirit. They wont be allowed to call alll the shots anymore, and create the messes they did before (with this unnatural and unbalanced rulking) The woman has a new vision, lets follow that for a while. The Queen rules now , the knight goes out and makes sure her rule is followed in the kingdom.' Power ' has passed from the first reckless adventurous part oif the spirit and into the more stable ruling queen. The knight energy still comes first as the first onrush of the energy and the queen '2nd' as the stabilizing force, but the queen rules and the knight uses his masculine vigour and fire and force to go out there and do something. All this is repeated in the Lust card, the lion man knight is the vehicle, the woman,queen is the director and visionary, the reins are symbolic and the enterprise is mutual. Observe the womans role in the card, and the mans (come on guys develop those 7 heads -or is 8 now that look closer?) Its the new tantric formular for sex, love, relationship and is repeated, I believe in the Knight Queen progression . The process is also internal with your anima / animus. Also see Crowleys LIBER RESH ritual, visualising Ra at the helm of the solar boat and Tahuti and prow (Ra, rowing, power force mars, knight, lion/beast - Tahuti at prow, the lookout and direction giver, the plotter of the course and communicator to the helm; the Lust, woman, Queen, mercurial force (but all under the solar lion)

thinbuddha

11-03-2006, 04:24

Asenath

06-04-2006, 14:00

If:

Some examples:

Princess of Swords = Earth of Air
Manifestation of results (Princess) from Intellectual and intuitive processes (Swords)
Interpretation = Intellectual results, decision maker, activist

Prince of Disks = Air of Earth
Goals (Prince) relating to resource allocation and tangible results (Earth)
Interpretation = Progress in planned growth, understanding cause (Prince) and effect (Earth), project manager

How would the pure forms of the suits be interpreted (i.e Earth of Earth, Fire of Fire, Water of Water, Air of Air)?

Aeon418

06-04-2006, 14:36

How would the pure forms of the suits be interpreted (i.e Earth of Earth, Fire of Fire, Water of Water, Air of Air)?
Princess of Earth ~ Earth of Earth. Very solid and dense but yet pregnant with infinite possibilities. The only way is up. ;)

Knight of Wands ~ Fire of Fire. One big explosion of energy.

Queen of Cups ~ Water of Water. The ultimate in reflection. Take one look at her and you will probably see yourself.

Prince of Wands ~ Air of Air. A literal whirlwind, going this way and that. Never stops spinning.

Hope that helps. :)

thinbuddha

06-04-2006, 14:49

Look at it this way:

The court card personifies the type of person that does (A) by using method (B) (A & B from list below)

A:
Knights (Kings) = Takes initiative, provides or comes to wisdom
Queens = Integrates ideas, adapts to change , comes to understanding
Princes = Moves towards goals, Controls thoughts (in self and others), organizes
Princesses (Pages) = Concerns themsleves with material results, facilitates physical or material growth

B:
Wands = Assertion and action
Cups = Creative inspiration, emotions, instinct or intuition
Swords = Intellectual and intuitive processes, communication
Disks = Resource allocation

The above lists are, by no means, complete.

So water of water (Queen of cups) would be a person that integrates (ideas) adapts or comes to an understanding through creative inspiration, emotional processes, instinct or intuition.

I've re-writen Strange2's original descriptions to fit this formula. I should point out that because this is a formula, it might not work well in all situations- but it is a place to start when trying to understand what a court card means within a spread.