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poivre
05-11-2009, 09:48
Read Liz Greenes astrology books?
I might order a couple of them.

What do you think of them?

Thanks for any information on any astrology books.

D.
:)

DevilishAngel
05-11-2009, 12:40
Never read any of them but I did have a channel reading that told me she was a good one for me to look into, as well as Stephen Arroyo and Dane Rudhyar.

Minderwiz
05-11-2009, 18:18
Liz Greene is top notch. She, Stephen Arroyo and Howard Sasportas form what is to me one of the best triumverates of psychological Astrology. Indeed in her later years she has tried to bridge the gap between the psychological approach and traditional Astrology, sadly provoking some disdain from both sides.

A definite Must Read author.

Bernice
05-11-2009, 20:15
"...A definite Must Read author"

I agree with this - with knobs on!

Bee :)

poivre
06-11-2009, 08:19
Thanks!!!
I ordered three books last night.
This will be my winter project...to read and
TRY to understand some of the information. :)

AJ
06-11-2009, 08:51
I just started the twelve houses last night by Howard Sasportas, so far very interesting. But then I just finished Ralph Blum's Runes book and found it interesting :) I take what I want and leave the rest. and down the road a few years I read stuff again and am amazed by what I missed.

214red
06-11-2009, 18:43
howards book is a good reference book also

poivre
07-11-2009, 05:58
I'm waiting on

The Twelve Houses
The Astrological Neptune
&
Saturn A New Look at an Old Devil

ravenest
10-11-2009, 09:41
The Astrological Neptune

Loved that one!

Saturn A New Look at an Old Devil
It's waiting on the shelf for me.

I think Liz is worth a read even if one is NOt into astrology.

Nevada
10-11-2009, 10:07
Liz Greene is top notch. She, Stephen Arroyo and Howard Sasportas form what is to me one of the best triumverates of psychological Astrology. Indeed in her later years she has tried to bridge the gap between the psychological approach and traditional Astrology, sadly provoking some disdain from both sides.

A definite Must Read author.This is good to know. I've been thinking about reading her books too. I think my true astrological home is somewhere on that bridge. :D

Minderwiz
10-11-2009, 19:34
Liz Greene and Howard Sasportas were founder members of the Centre for Psychological Astrology, founded in London in 1983. They were co-directors till Sasportas' death, when Charles Harvey took over as a co-director, till he too sadly died.

Greene's early work is heavily psychological in nature and it's only in the last few years that she has begun to shift ground. She is a qualified Jungian analyst and the psychological approach is always her first love, so I'm not implying any conversion, merely an increasing interest in what the tradition has to offer.

She is also a partner in Astrodienst, which many use for their web based horoscope.

Saturness
23-09-2011, 06:56
This topic is a bit old, I know, but I decided to bring it back to life instead of posting the same question. :)

I am looking for books that are available in my country, because Brazil is making it very hard to important anything from abroad. So goodbye Amazon and Book Depository for a while. We have many Astrology books that have been translated, specially during the 80s and the 90s. Many of them are book written by Liz Greene.

I wanted to know which ones you consider her must-read books. Because there are many titles available, I am not sure which ones would be a good read for a a 'rookie' astrology student.

Thank you! :)

Minderwiz
23-09-2011, 07:43
This isn't an easy question to answer, but given the situation with imported books, I'd say go for whatever you can get. The books on individual planets are a reasonable starting point there's a good but now dated book called New Insights In Modern Astrology, written along with Stephen Arroyo and its a record of talks they gave at a conference, together with the answers to questions from the audience.


Edited to add:

There's an interesting interview with her at: You can enlarge the pdf to full screen, as instructed on the page.

http://theastrologyplace.blogspot.com/2009/11/liz-greene-interview.html

Barleywine
23-09-2011, 10:51
I've been kind of conflicted about Liz's work since I started cooling to the purely Jungian psychological approach to astrology about the time I bought her Saturn book, and I never really warmed up to it. It's probably also why I never bought anything by Arroyo (although I should probably back-track and do so). I did think The Twelve Houses by Sasportas was worthwhile. Early on, I was a big fan of Dane Rudhyar, and the "next wave" of psychological writers (Jeff Green is another one), while certainly capable and earnest, didn't grab me in quite the same way.

prudence
23-09-2011, 13:36
Marina, I think we must be on some kind of weird similar wavelength, because just today at a tarot meet up, a lady who is fairly well informed on astro strongly recommended Liz Greene to me to help me understand some of the makeup of my natal chart.

And lo and behold, I come here and you've resurrected this thread. Nice synchronicity.

Life can be so pleasantly weird.

Saturness
23-09-2011, 14:04
This isn't an easy question to answer, but given the situation with imported books, I'd say go for whatever you can get. The books on individual planets are a reasonable starting point there's a good but now dated book called New Insights In Modern Astrology, written along with Stephen Arroyo and its a record of talks they gave at a conference, together with the answers to questions from the audience.

I think most of her popular books were released here, although some are quite hard-to-find... Astrology had quite a boom here on the end of the 80s/early 90s. Even my mother made natal charts, lol! :laugh:

I just remembered I gave Greene's book about sun signs and love (not sure of the title in english) to my mother and she liked it very much. I will look for her more easily available books and if I like them, then I'll seek the ones that are harder to find. Hope that until then our situation here gets better and I am able to buy things from abroad.

I have a book by Howard Sasportas, "The Twelve Houses", but I just found out it came with a defect - some pages are missing. Since it's a second-hand book I cannot ask for an exchange, I'll have to find another copy. So lucky! :rolleyes: But I really liked his explanations on the Houses and how different planets can manifest in different houses. He worked with Liz Greene so I suppose they both discuss the subject in a way that makes you think about it, instead of just giving one-paragraph definitions.

I have not forgotten about the books on Traditional Astrology you once recommended me, I just have not found them here. :) I think I'll have to use the 'Modern' Astrology books to begin with.


I've been kind of conflicted about Liz's work since I started cooling to the purely Jungian psychological approach to astrology about the time I bought her Saturn book, and I never really warmed up to it. It's probably also why I never bought anything by Arroyo (although I should probably back-track and do so). I did think The Twelve Houses by Sasportas was worthwhile. Early on, I was a big fan of Dane Rudhyar, and the "next wave" of psychological writers (Jeff Green is another one), while certainly capable and earnest, didn't grab me in quite the same way.

Thank you for your input! I have been looking for Dane Rudhyar's books here as well, and there are quite a few I don't know where to start. Do you have any special recommendations? It seems to me that his book "The Astrology of Personality" is very popular, but I wonder if it's a good book to start with.

The books I have - Sakoian & Acker's "The Astrologer's Handbook" and (don't laugh!) "The Mammoth Book of Fortune Telling" - while very interesting and straightforward, they mostly give me prêt-à-porter descriptions of the planets and houses and their combination. In my opinion they do not offer much food for thought. I mean, they don't help me to 'understand' the planets and houses, only to memorize descriptions, which I find mentally unfulfilling, lol! I am looking for alternatives. :)

Marina, I think we must be on some kind of weird similar wavelength, because just today at a tarot meet up, a lady who is fairly well informed on astro strongly recommended Liz Greene to me to help me understand some of the makeup of my natal chart.

And lo and behold, I come here and you've resurrected this thread. Nice synchronicity.

Life can be so pleasantly weird.

First Minderwiz reads my journal, now you are intercepting my brain waves!?!?! :mad:

:laugh: Kidding! That's an amazing sychronicity indeed! I wish I could find a decent astrologer here to analyze my chart... I agree that if you could get your chart analyzed by someone like Liz Greene that could be a very nice experience! Of course, I have no idea how many kidneys.. I mean, how much money this would cost. :D

Minderwiz
23-09-2011, 20:37
I've been kind of conflicted about Liz's work since I started cooling to the purely Jungian psychological approach to astrology about the time I bought her Saturn book, and I never really warmed up to it. It's probably also why I never bought anything by Arroyo (although I should probably back-track and do so). I did think The Twelve Houses by Sasportas was worthwhile. Early on, I was a big fan of Dane Rudhyar, and the "next wave" of psychological writers (Jeff Green is another one), while certainly capable and earnest, didn't grab me in quite the same way.

I can well understand this point. One of the problems I face, and I think Dave faces too is when giving recommendations to newbies, or people wanting to take the next step forward is trying to balance my own approach to Astrology with the wider practise and it's not easy to recommend looking at something that I've not much faith in. Dave usually adds a disclaimer that he doesn't use such and such a technique, I try and make it clear that I follow a traditional approach.

However people have to start somewhere, and the techniques to follow really depend on a student's reason for taking up Astrology. If you're interested in Jungian psychology there's not a great deal of point in going into a traditional approach - though you'd be surprised at the amount of psychology you can get out of it. If you're interested in taking up Horary, then there's little point in learning about a psychological approach to Astrology and if you're interested in Karma, because you have a great attraction to Eastern approaches, then Vedic Astrology might be a more appropriate step.

Liz Greene is a very good example of the psychological approach - indeed one of the key pioneers and she has been the focus of change in that approach. In Sasportas' book 'The Twelve Houses', He (mistakenly) says that the fourth has traditionally been associated with Cancer and the Mother but then attributes to Liz Greene the casting of 'ambiguity' over that meaning and that Liz's extensive research identified the Mother with the tenth House.

In fairness, at the time of writing 'traditional' meant back to Alan Leo, Sasportas did not really know or understand the 'tradition' as we now know it. Liz Greene's research from a psychological perspective, confirmed the (real) traditional stance, that the tenth is the House of the mother, and that the Cancer=Moon=Fourth House view was erroneous and based on a misunderstanding of houses, signs and planets.

Liz now incorporates a much wider pespective into her teaching as the interview I linked to shows - but she is still fundamentally the psychologist.

Minderwiz
23-09-2011, 22:03
I have not forgotten about the books on Traditional Astrology you once recommended me, I just have not found them here. :) I think I'll have to use the 'Modern' Astrology books to begin with.

There are relatively few books on Traditional Astrology, compared with those on the Psychological approach - so they're more hard to come by. Certainly high street bookshops tend not to include them in their Astrology sections. So I can see your problem. Anyway, I think, as a beginner, you should acquaint yourself with all forms of Astrology before making your choice of which to specialise in, or even in what order you want to do further reading into two or more forms of Astrology. When Dave and I learned Astrology, there was little choice on what approach to use, if you wanted to study in depth and courses then (and often still) did not cover traditional approaches, Vedic approaches, etc. A basic knowledge of the varied types of Astrology is a good thing, it helps you put your later studies in context.

Go for what you can get books on (as long as it is of interest)

Barleywine
23-09-2011, 22:05
Thank you for your input! I have been looking for Dane Rudhyar's books here as well, and there are quite a few I don't know where to start. Do you have any special recommendations? It seems to me that his book "The Astrology of Personality" is very popular, but I wonder if it's a good book to start with.

The books I have - Sakoian & Acker's "The Astrologer's Handbook" and (don't laugh!) "The Mammoth Book of Fortune Telling" - while very interesting and straightforward, they mostly give me prêt-à-porter descriptions of the planets and houses and their combination. In my opinion they do not offer much food for thought. I mean, they don't help me to 'understand' the planets and houses, only to memorize descriptions, which I find mentally unfulfilling, lol! I am looking for alternatives. :)

I have the following books by Dane Rudhyar (in no particular order of preference):

The Astrology of Personality
The Pulse of Life (covers the signs)
The Astrological Houses
The Lunation Cycle
An Astrological Study of Psychological Complexes
Person-Centered Astrology
The Practice of Astrology
An Astrological Mandala (covers the Sabian Symbols)

The Lunation Cycle is the one I still refer to, though there are probably many more recent treatments of that subject. I recall the books on signs and houses to be thoughtful as well, but I haven't looked at them in a while. If you're interested in Rudhyar's "humanistic" approach, Michael Meyer's "A Handbook for the Humanistic Astrologer" is still available as well.

Also, the Sakoian and Acker book is one of the more reliable beginner's "cookbook" style efforts, but some of it needs to be taken with a large grain of salt and some of it just makes me scratch my head. I also have Astrology: The Divine Science by Marcia Moore and Mark Douglas, which is a worthy alternative and more fully fleshed out than the Handbook (although, in the nature of these things, still somewhat formulaic). I also liked Rob Hand's work when it first came out but, upon revisiting it, my impression is that not all of it has aged well.

Saturness
26-09-2011, 22:48
Anyway, I think, as a beginner, you should acquaint yourself with all forms of Astrology before making your choice of which to specialise in, or even in what order you want to do further reading into two or more forms of Astrology.[...]
Go for what you can get books on (as long as it is of interest)

I am trying to do that - keep and open mind about all styles of Astrology before making a decision. I actually wanted a book on Traditional Astrology just to learn more about it and compare with the most popular Psychological Astrology.

But now it seems all local second-hand bookstores have thrown their Astrology books in the fires on the Spanish Inquisition because, now that I want them, I am not finding a SINGLE decent book. Argh! :laugh: Universe, please, stop conspiring against me! :P

The Lunation Cycle is the one I still refer to, though there are probably many more recent treatments of that subject. I recall the books on signs and houses to be thoughtful as well, but I haven't looked at them in a while. If you're interested in Rudhyar's "humanistic" approach, Michael Meyer's "A Handbook for the Humanistic Astrologer" is still available as well.

I know this one has been translated to Portuguese, so I'll keep an open eye to it! Do you think that "The Astrology of Personality" is a good book?

Also, the Sakoian and Acker book is one of the more reliable beginner's "cookbook" style efforts, but some of it needs to be taken with a large grain of salt and some of it just makes me scratch my head. I also have Astrology: The Divine Science by Marcia Moore and Mark Douglas, which is a worthy alternative and more fully fleshed out than the Handbook (although, in the nature of these things, still somewhat formulaic). I also liked Rob Hand's work when it first came out but, upon revisiting it, my impression is that not all of it has aged well.

Well, the truth is that all general book on basic Astrology tend to be rather formulaic, there's no escape. The authors have to talk about a bit of everything in a concise and basic manner that limits a bit your approach on the many different topics within Astrology.

I don't think we have "Astrology: The Divine Science" here, but thank you for the suggestion! There's such a huge amount of books on Astrology it's hard to know what is good and what is not... so recommendations are always welcome! :)

dadsnook2000
26-09-2011, 23:22
Over the last decade-plus, the number of specialty book stores has decined in most areas except for major urban centers and a few "new age" or "occult" stores. I have found it necessary, for the most part, to order from Internet sources.

The Internet sources are not only places like Amazon but include publishers such as Barnes and Noble as well as astrological book sellers --- including "used" book sellers. Some astro organizations such as AFA also offer books, as well as some astrological software producers.

If you like the Lunation Cycle you might want to hunt down Marc Robertson's book, The Engine of Destiny." He not only covers the eight-phase Sun-Moon relationships in very practical ways, but he also covers other planet pairings in a similar manner, such as Saturn-Moon, Jupiter-Mercury, Mars-Venus, Saturn-Jupiter, and Uranus-Saturn. These pairings become a short-hand for quickly assessing a chart in terms of character, thinking, family, sexuality, life management and social-adaptation.

A recent purchase of mine was Vivian Robson's "A Student's Text-Book of Astrology" which I acquired for several reasons: First, Robson was a notable researcher of astrological methods used prior to and during his time of practice. Like Carter, he was very diligent in his study, research and very clear in his writing. Second, he discusses, chapter by chapter, the subjects of Infant Mortality and Length of Life, Personal Appearance and Physical Peculiarities, Charcter and Mind, Health and Accidents, Finance, Occupation and Position, Parents-relatives-and Home, Friends and Enemies, Love and Marriage, Children, Travel, Death. Most such books are not organized along these lines of topical interest.

Dave

Minderwiz
27-09-2011, 04:14
Over the last decade-plus, the number of specialty book stores has decined in most areas except for major urban centers and a few "new age" or "occult" stores. I have found it necessary, for the most part, to order from Internet sources.

The Internet sources are not only places like Amazon but include publishers such as Barnes and Noble as well as astrological book sellers --- including "used" book sellers. Some astro organizations such as AFA also offer books, as well as some astrological software producers.

Yes I agree with your points, it seems to be a world wide phenomenon because it's definitely the situation here. I gather from Marina's previous posts that book imports into Brazil are now a problem, so there might be difficulties with internet purchases. Nevertheless non-Amazon sources might be worth trying, as they don't advertise themselves all over the packaging.


A recent purchase of mine was Vivian Robson's "A Student's Text-Book of Astrology" which I acquired for several reasons: First, Robson was a notable researcher of astrological methods used prior to and during his time of practice. Like Carter, he was very diligent in his study, research and very clear in his writing. Second, he discusses, chapter by chapter, the subjects of Infant Mortality and Length of Life, Personal Appearance and Physical Peculiarities, Charcter and Mind, Health and Accidents, Finance, Occupation and Position, Parents-relatives-and Home, Friends and Enemies, Love and Marriage, Children, Travel, Death. Most such books are not organized along these lines of topical interest.

Dave

So he follows a traditional approach on organisation, if not on content :). I must admit I find that sort of format to be easy to deal with, as the reader can 'dip in' to whichever topic they wish to 'gen up' on. I'm surprised that more books don't follow that type of structure.

It's the same with predictions, few 'introductory books' have any coverage of predictions - even if only to the extent of sketching out how it fits into the approach to natal Astrology, or indeed other forms of Astrology. Yet originally the purpose of Astrology was prediction, Yes natal Astrology requires some assessment of character and mind (temperament and manners, to use Lilly's phrase) but the purpose is to use prediction to guide the 'native; That's true whether you use a psychological approach or a traditional, or indeed any other approach. There may be good reason (in the UK) why this diversion of direction occurred but if we just use Astrology to assess someone's character we are failing to do justice to the Art.

Barleywine
27-09-2011, 05:51
A recent purchase of mine was Vivian Robson's "A Student's Text-Book of Astrology" which I acquired for several reasons: First, Robson was a notable researcher of astrological methods used prior to and during his time of practice. Like Carter, he was very diligent in his study, research and very clear in his writing. Second, he discusses, chapter by chapter, the subjects of Infant Mortality and Length of Life, Personal Appearance and Physical Peculiarities, Charcter and Mind, Health and Accidents, Finance, Occupation and Position, Parents-relatives-and Home, Friends and Enemies, Love and Marriage, Children, Travel, Death. Most such books are not organized along these lines of topical interest.

Dave

I have that one on my list. I think, since the price is comparable to Amazon's, I'm going to buy that directly from the current publisher. Dave Roell (Astrological Center of America) complained in his weekly newsletter that he has only made a little over $750 in direct sales in September, his worst monthly gross in 16 years. Since he is republishing many of the old traditional texts under his Astrology Classics imprint, I would hate to see him fold.

Saturness
27-09-2011, 06:37
Yes I agree with your points, it seems to be a world wide phenomenon because it's definitely the situation here. I gather from Marina's previous posts that book imports into Brazil are now a problem, so there might be difficulties with internet purchases. Nevertheless non-Amazon sources might be worth trying, as they don't advertise themselves all over the packaging.

Actually, our customs are purposefully delaying the deliver of all international packages (including gifts) to discourage people from buying from abroad. I have been waiting for things I bought back in July... I don't know when (or if) I'll ever get them, so now I'm limiting myself to the Brazilian bookstores (much to my frustration). :(

That's why I have been asking so much about books... I take a look at what the second-hand bookstores have and come here to ask your opinion on it, to see if it's a worthy purchase or not. :)


A recent purchase of mine was Vivian Robson's "A Student's Text-Book of Astrology" which I acquired for several reasons: First, Robson was a notable researcher of astrological methods used prior to and during his time of practice. Like Carter, he was very diligent in his study, research and very clear in his writing. Second, he discusses, chapter by chapter, the subjects of Infant Mortality and Length of Life, Personal Appearance and Physical Peculiarities, Charcter and Mind, Health and Accidents, Finance, Occupation and Position, Parents-relatives-and Home, Friends and Enemies, Love and Marriage, Children, Travel, Death. Most such books are not organized along these lines of topical interest.

I have found for sale here his book A Beginners Guide to Practical Astrology (http://www.amazon.com/Beginners-Guide-Practical-Astrology/dp/1933303360)... I am sure it's not the same one you talk about, but from the Amazon summary, it seems to be a VERY interesting book. It is directed at beginners, like me, but it has a different approach. I think I may order this book as soon as I get paid, because there's only one copy of it available here!

Sadly, I could not find any preview of the book as to know if it has the same topical approach as the Student's Text-Book.



So he follows a traditional approach on organisation, if not on content :). I must admit I find that sort of format to be easy to deal with, as the reader can 'dip in' to whichever topic they wish to 'gen up' on. I'm surprised that more books don't follow that type of structure.

THAT would be interesting. To have a book that helps you to put the astrological descriptions into context. Like we have discussed before, most of 'cookbooks' nowadays focus on the psychological aspects of the natal chart, and do not help when you are trying to see beyond the scope of personal descriptions.



It's the same with predictions, few 'introductory books' have any coverage of predictions - even if only to the extent of sketching out how it fits into the approach to natal Astrology, or indeed other forms of Astrology. Yet originally the purpose of Astrology was prediction, Yes natal Astrology requires some assessment of character and mind (temperament and manners, to use Lilly's phrase) but the purpose is to use prediction to guide the 'native; That's true whether you use a psychological approach or a traditional, or indeed any other approach. There may be good reason (in the UK) why this diversion of direction occurred but if we just use Astrology to assess someone's character we are failing to do justice to the Art.

I am surprised that so few of the basic cookbooks talk about predictions... I think that the whole 'prediction' thing became a bit underrated during the last, what, 20-25 years, in almost every "metaphysical" field. Many tarot and card readers refuse to 'make predictions' and claim that they simply offer guidance, advice and whatnot. Chiromancy used to be heavy on predictions, now it's also becoming a 'psychological' art, limited to describing people.

I do think that the idea of prediction makes people uncomfortable, and that explains why many of the modern books on astrology, cartomancy, chiromancy, runes etc. are focusing on the individual descriptions. While many people are looking for real self-knowledge - and that is certainly important - I feel that a big part of the 'metaphysical field' is becoming full of people dedicated to shallow navel-gazing... the kind that does not make them know (or help) themselves any better, despite the amount of time they spend reading or describing themselves.

It's not meant to be a criticism, just an observation - I enjoy learning more about myself and my motives and potentials, but I prefer to do something with all that information. I do think that the self-analysis trend is reflecting in the books. It's hard even to find a book that helps you on choosing a career with the help of astrology (which I don't think is such an outlandish inquiry), because the information gets lost in the middle of the character-description pablum...

Barleywine
27-09-2011, 07:30
I do think that the idea of prediction makes people uncomfortable, and that explains why many of the modern books on astrology, cartomancy, chiromancy, runes etc. are focusing on the individual descriptions. While many people are looking for real self-knowledge - and that is certainly important - I feel that a big part of the 'metaphysical field' is becoming full of people dedicated to shallow navel-gazing... the kind that does not make them know (or help) themselves any better, despite the amount of time they spend reading or describing themselves.

It could also be related to the risk of litigation. If someone acts on a financial prediction and loses a lot of money, they might be inclined to sue the astrologer to get some of it back. You would need an iron-clad disclaimer of responsibility that would stand up in a court, and I don't know how many astrologers want to hire a lawyer to set that up for them. Some governments may also have anti-fortune-telling laws that they could prosecute under. Character analysis has way fewer minefields.

Saturness
27-09-2011, 12:08
It could also be related to the risk of litigation. If someone acts on a financial prediction and loses a lot of money, they might be inclined to sue the astrologer to get some of it back. You would need an iron-clad disclaimer of responsibility that would stand up in a court, and I don't know how many astrologers want to hire a lawyer to set that up for them. Some governments may also have anti-fortune-telling laws that they could prosecute under. Character analysis has way fewer minefields.

Yes indeed, you are absolutely right! I had forgotten about this specific problem, and it's certainly a concern for anyone working with astrology and other divination methods professionally.

That said, I do not think that this factor alone would affect the book market, and I was thinking more about the lack of books focusing on prediction (at least in my local market).
Perhaps it's really a sum of factors. Professional astrologers and card readers feeling more limited due to possible lawsuits in case of human error, combined with the fact that many people are turning to these tools as means to know themselves better (which is supported by the astrologer/card reader themselves, who end up focusing on such services). The publishing houses know what sells and what doesn't (I work in one!), and we all need to pay our bills, so of course they'll invest in books that are closer to much-wanted psychological aspects than the predictions ones. :)

Still, like Minderwiz said, it's a shame when you forsake the prediction aspect of the art, because it is a big part in the history of astrology... The only book I own on astrology that mentions prediction and how it can be used is The Mammoth Book of Fortune Telling (http://www.librarything.com/work/book/77095878). And it devotes only a couple of paragraphs to it.
Should I laugh or cry? :laugh:

Barleywine
27-09-2011, 22:31
The only book I own on astrology that mentions prediction and how it can be used is The Mammoth Book of Fortune Telling (http://www.librarything.com/work/book/77095878). And it devotes only a couple of paragraphs to it.
Should I laugh or cry? :laugh:

I would think any book that covers methods like transits, secondary progression, solar arc direction and primary direction would be about nothing but prediction. Even if it's at no deeper level than "Today is a good day to go out and party" or "Today you should stay home and close the blinds." Still, you're right. In the age of psychological astrology even the predictions would be about how the individual will process events internally and not the specific events themselves: "Today when you're run over bus you will feel despondent over the fact that you have no money to pay the doctor because Saturn is afflicting your natal Venus." ;)

ihcoyc
28-09-2011, 06:07
Actually, our customs are purposefully delaying the deliver of all international packages (including gifts) to discourage people from buying from abroad. I have been waiting for things I bought back in July... I don't know when (or if) I'll ever get them, so now I'm limiting myself to the Brazilian bookstores (much to my frustration). :(

If accessing books from overseas is a problem, there's all sorts of serviceable material available from before 1922 on Google Books. I know Zadkiel's edition of Lilly is there, and the 1806 two volume edition of Sibly's "Astrology," as are a number of books from Alan Leo. Sepharial's "Directional Astrology" is pretty complicated but seems clear and instructive.

Minderwiz
28-09-2011, 06:35
It could also be related to the risk of litigation. If someone acts on a financial prediction and loses a lot of money, they might be inclined to sue the astrologer to get some of it back. You would need an iron-clad disclaimer of responsibility that would stand up in a court, and I don't know how many astrologers want to hire a lawyer to set that up for them. Some governments may also have anti-fortune-telling laws that they could prosecute under. Character analysis has way fewer minefields.

It's pretty easy to come up with a legal disclaimer, simply say you're in the business of entertainment and not to be taken seriously (using the appropriate legal phrases) and put that in very large letters on any written prediction you give - I notice this is being used in quite a few TV Psychic programmes. Then anyone who acts on your prediction is in effect declaring themselves dumb.

The big problem is leaving yourself open to charges of deception or predicting in areas that have a legally recognised authority with quasi judicial powers and control of entry to the relevant professions - such as the British Medical Associate and the Medical profession. Being a Financial Adviser can fall into that category in some countries.

The big problem is the anti-fortune telling laws because these usually have catch all definitions that are likely to get any astrologer, tarot reader, psychic, palmist, etc. The main case in Astrology is that of the prosecutions of Alan Leo in the UK in the early part of the twentienth century,

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/Alan_Leo.html

The psychic, Helen Duncan was prosecuted under the Witchcraft Act, following her revelation in a seance of the sinking of HMS Barham, is another cause celebre.

I did make brief passing reference to problems in the UK in the past, and these cases are not the only ones. The law has since been amended but there's still a reluctance to make predictions. Indeed a number of Astrologers treated predictions (except in the broadest sense) as suspect until recently and indeed many still do. It's a pity as Marina says, but I do recognise the constraints.

Minderwiz
28-09-2011, 06:53
If accessing books from overseas is a problem, there's all sorts of serviceable material available from before 1922 on Google Books. I know Zadkiel's edition of Lilly is there, and the 1806 two volume edition of Sibly's "Astrology," as are a number of books from Alan Leo. Sepharial's "Directional Astrology" is pretty complicated but seems clear and instructive.

Zadkiel's Introduction to Astrology is to be avoided - in his own words, he introduced 'numerous emendations adapted to the improved state of science' to Lilly's work. In other words he changed it to fit his own views.

The Astrologers of the nineteenth century are not really the best, but Leo is worth reading, even though he diverted (I would say 'perverted') the course of Astrology. Leo was a Theosophist, and he altered Astrology to make it a vehicle for the beliefs of Theosophy but a reading shows where the modern views of signs come from, and indeed the meanings for Uranus and Neptune.

Barleywine
28-09-2011, 09:30
If accessing books from overseas is a problem, there's all sorts of serviceable material available from before 1922 on Google Books. I know Zadkiel's edition of Lilly is there, and the 1806 two volume edition of Sibly's "Astrology," as are a number of books from Alan Leo. Sepharial's "Directional Astrology" is pretty complicated but seems clear and instructive.

I notice in The Mountain Astrologer that the "natal" chart for the founding of the United States is called the "Sibly" chart. Is that the same Sibly?

Minderwiz
28-09-2011, 21:32
I notice in The Mountain Astrologer that the "natal" chart for the founding of the United States is called the "Sibly" chart. Is that the same Sibly?

Yes, Ebenezer Sibly (1751-c1799) born in Bristol and an English sympathiser with those prototype Tea Party candidates in Boston :)

You'll find more about him here:

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/sibly.html#sibly

Barleywine
28-09-2011, 22:35
Yes, Ebenezer Sibly (1751-c1799) born in Bristol and an English sympathiser with those prototype Tea Party candidates in Boston :)

You'll find more about him here:

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/sibly.html#sibly

The University of Toronto library has an on-line pdf of the "New and Revised Illustration of the Celestial Science of Astrology" (published in 1826 and no longer in copyright). The biography mentions that he copied large sections of material from earlier texts. Do you suppose much of it came from Christian Astrology? It looks suspiciously like Lilly.

Minderwiz
29-09-2011, 02:06
The University of Toronto library has an on-line pdf of the "New and Revised Illustration of the Celestial Science of Astrology" (published in 1826 and no longer in copyright). The biography mentions that he copied large sections of material from earlier texts. Do you suppose much of it came from Christian Astrology? It looks suspiciously like Lilly.

There's also an article by Allen Debus, linked to the Skyscript page, showing his main interest as medicine.

I've not seen any direct reference to him copying material, but if he did, the obvious candidates would be Lilly, Coley, Partridge and Gadbury. He did re-publish Culpepper's Herbal and it might (and I stress might because I've no evidence) have been influenced in part by Richard Saunders

ihcoyc
29-09-2011, 05:40
My unscientific impression is that almost every writer on astrology in English before the middle of the 1800s took Lilly as a model, and introduced the subject in the same order and with the same method. Almost all move directly into horary material like Lilly does, and a lot of it seems to have been copied directly.

There is a fairly long collection (http://www.skyscript.co.uk/texts.html) of available PD texts in this list at skyscript.co.uk as well. Parkes's ("Ebn Shemaya")The Star (http://books.google.com/books?id=4XYEAAAAQAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=ebn+shemaya+star&hl=en&ei=dHaDTrSCCNPK0AGc_5lz&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false) seems to have quite a bit of information in it, though I've just recently downloaded it. "Astrology As It Is" (http://books.google.com/books?id=djgDAAAAQAAJ&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false) by "A Cavalry Officer" is amusingly daffy in the places it hasn't just been copied out of Lilly.

Barleywine
29-09-2011, 06:07
My unscientific impression is that almost every writer on astrology in English before the middle of the 1800s took Lilly as a model, and introduced the subject in the same order and with the same method. Almost all move directly into horary material like Lilly does, and a lot of it seems to have been copied directly.

There is a fairly long collection (http://www.skyscript.co.uk/texts.html) of available PD texts in this list at skyscript.co.uk as well. Parkes's ("Ebn Shemaya")The Star (http://books.google.com/books?id=4XYEAAAAQAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=ebn+shemaya+star&hl=en&ei=dHaDTrSCCNPK0AGc_5lz&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false) seems to have quite a bit of information in it, though I've just recently downloaded it. "Astrology As It Is" (http://books.google.com/books?id=djgDAAAAQAAJ&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false) by "A Cavalry Officer" is amusingly daffy in the places it hasn't just been copied out of Lilly.

Thanks for the comprehensive list. I downloaded The Star and started browsing through it. As one who was trained to write in a conversational style, I find paragraph-long, 125-word sentences a bit daunting until I immerse myself in the flow. I find myself breathing hard as I envision someone actually enunciating every one of the words.

ihcoyc
29-09-2011, 06:41
Indeed; a lot of pre-Theosophy astrological writing in English seems to consist of a flowery preface bristling with Latin and Greek, prepended to a text mostly copied from Lilly. They also seemed to borrow heavily from the master of the style, Robert Burton and his Anatomy of Melancholy (http://www.gutenberg.org/files/10800/10800-h/10800-h.htm).

It ain't possible for any of the other temperaments to get such a book written about 'em. The sanguine would be succinct; the choleric wouldn't have the patience, and the phlegmatic would never finish his'n. Every student of astrology probably ought to try to read it, even if there isn't much practical astrology in it. It is one of my favorite old books.

Minderwiz
29-09-2011, 07:14
Indeed; a lot of pre-Theosophy astrological writing in English seems to consist of a flowery preface bristling with Latin and Greek, prepended to a text mostly copied from Lilly.

Lilly wrote almost at the moment of the death of Astrology - judicial Astrology went into virtually terminal decline between 1650 and 1700. The decline was accompanied by the cessation of the teaching of Astrology in universities. From being a mainstay of medical degrees it disappeared - Harvey's revolution in showing the functioning of the body and the circulation of blood being one cause. Growing rationalism and humanism on the one hand and a strengthening of religious strictures on the other seem to have been key reasons. A more detailed consideration is found in Campion's History of Western AStrology vol 2.

The net effect was that those who continued to practice it had no source of new learning and fell into the practice of reusing and then modifying existing texts. The Witchcraft Act of 1735 imposed penalties for 'pretending to see the future' which made it very difficult to practice openly. Yes there are some notable figures, but they seem more concerned in preserving rather than developing Astrology.

ihcoyc
29-09-2011, 12:56
Lilly wrote almost at the moment of the death of Astrology - judicial Astrology went into virtually terminal decline between 1650 and 1700. The decline was accompanied by the cessation of the teaching of Astrology in universities. From being a mainstay of medical degrees it disappeared - Harvey's revolution in showing the functioning of the body and the circulation of blood being one cause. Growing rationalism and humanism on the one hand and a strengthening of religious strictures on the other seem to have been key reasons.

My understanding is that astrology came to be politically suspect as well following the Restoration. Lilly and Culpeper were both popularizers. They both wanted to break learning about astrology and herbalism out of learned tongues into English. The Civil War resulted in a general breakdown of censorship regimes and the power of learned societies that could otherwise have acted to protect their trade secrets.

This had the result of associating astrology with republicanism, apocalyptic prophecy and other sorts of political and religious fanaticism that were deeply suspect when the restoration came. I haven't read any of Lilly's political stuff, but the period itself interests me.

I've never read any of Lilly's political or almanac material, but should seek it out. (And we're wandering quite far afield from Liz Greene.)

Minderwiz
29-09-2011, 20:17
My understanding is that astrology came to be politically suspect as well following the Restoration. Lilly and Culpeper were both popularizers. They both wanted to break learning about astrology and herbalism out of learned tongues into English. The Civil War resulted in a general breakdown of censorship regimes and the power of learned societies that could otherwise have acted to protect their trade secrets.

This had the result of associating astrology with republicanism, apocalyptic prophecy and other sorts of political and religious fanaticism that were deeply suspect when the restoration came. I haven't read any of Lilly's political stuff, but the period itself interests me.

I've never read any of Lilly's political or almanac material, but should seek it out. (And we're wandering quite far afield from Liz Greene.)

The impact of the Restoration is seen as important by Patrick Curry, but the decline in Astrology was Europe wide, so whilst that might have been a contributing factor in England, it doesn't explain similar declines in France (where Astrology had just reached it's peak with Morin) and Italy. In Italy the Papal Bull of 1631 did contribute to the closing down of Astrological publications but Campion reckons that 'disgodding, disenchantment and the removal of the divine or soul from nature' was a most significant factor.

There's no disputing the decline was precipitous and it's interesting to note that the 1735 Witchcraft Act treated witchcraft, the occult and Astrology not as real practices but as charlatanry - obtaining money or goods by deception - Astrologers were bad because they were fakes - a very rationalist and humanist position.