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Cerulean
05-04-2003, 11:25
I think this is more from a Golden Dawn modified view of astrology, not historically ancient (Babylonian/Chacadean/Greco Roman) correspondences. The historical astrology does only use seven planets. I'm pulling the modern modified listings from Mary Greer's Tarot for Yourself, Essential Magic (Aromatherapy) and Joseph Martin's Quest Tarot pocket laminated card summary of card to astrology.
Majors first, Minors than courts
Majors
Uranus-Fool
Magician-Mercury
High-Priestess-Moon
Empress-Venus
Emporer-Aries
Hierophant-Taurus
Lovers-Gemini
Chariot-Cancer
Strength/Lust-Leo
Hermit-Virgo
Justice/Adjustment-Libra
Death-Scorpio
Temperance/Art-Sagitarius
Devil-Capricorn
Star-Aquarius
Moon-Pieces
Sun-Sun
Judgement-Pluto
World-Saturn

Minors will be similar to the trio assigned in astrology that uses decanates...courts might be from Thoth?

Cerulean
05-04-2003, 11:47
2S-Moon-Libra
3S-Saturn-Libra
4S-Jupiter-Libra
5S-Venus-Aquarius
6S-Mercury-Aquarius
7S-Moon-Aquarius
8S-Jupiter-Gemini
9S-Mars-Gemini
10S-Sun-Gemini

2W-Mars-Aries
3W-Sun- Aries
4W-Venus-Aries
5W-Saturn-Leo
6W-Jupiter-Leo
7W-Mars-Leo
8W-Mercury-Sagitarius
9W-Sun-Sagitarius
10W-Saturn-Sagitarius

2C-Venus-Cancer
3C-Mercury-Cancer
4C-Moon-Cancer
5C-Mars-Scorpio
6C-Sun-Scorpio
7C-Venus-Scorpio
8C-Saturn-Pisces
9C-Jupiter-Pisces
10C-Mars-Pisces

2PJupiter-Capricorn
3P-Mars-Capricorn
4P-Sun-Capricorn
5P-Mercury-Taurus
6P-Moon-Taurus
7P-Saturn-Taurus
8P-Sun-Virgo
9P-Venus-Virgo
10P-Mercury-Virgo

Cerulean
05-04-2003, 15:02
Aries-Queen of Wands
Taurus-King of Pentacles
Gemini-Knight of Swords
Cancer-Queen of Cups
Leo-King of Wands
Virgo-Knight of Pentacles
Libra-Queen of Swords
Scorpio-King of Cups
Saggitarius-Knight of Wands
Capricorn-Queen of Pentacles
Aquarius-King of Swords
Pisces-Knight of Cups.

While some of the above came from Mary Greer's Tarot For Yourself and Essential Magic (Aromatherapy), her listing also references Crowley and Paul Foster Case. She also says not all the correspondences work with your own instincts, deck or situation---but I hoped this post would be helpful to others, as I hope to write a little on the Oracle of the Radiant Sun, an astrological pack by Carolyn Smith and John Alsop. My interest includes how to relate some of the astrological correspondences with those who come to astrology from tarot-wise areas. So I hope this is helpful.

Thanks for your patience!

Mari H.

Demonesse
05-04-2003, 16:31
Thank you for the Astrological Correspondences = Tarot. Very interesting to see how the authors have matched the signs/planets to their respective Tarot cards. Cancer for example as Queen of Cups seems quite well placed. I agree, though, that some of the correspondences don't really work for me intuition-wise. I listed a few below, as well as my suggestions:

10W-Saturn-Sagitarius (I would have put perhaps Saturn-Capricorn)

Capricorn-Queen of Pentacles (Taurus)

World-Saturn (Jupiter)

Chariot-Cancer (Aries/Sagitarius)

Hierophant-Taurus (Aquarius)

Uranus-Fool (Earth)

Devil-Capricorn (Capricorn or Scorpio)

Minderwiz
06-04-2003, 04:45
Linking Tarot cards with Astrology is always going to prove tricky because they have different origins - though it's highly likely that many Tarot practioners were also Astrologers.

The Golden Dawn basically divided 22 trumps into Seven planets, 12 signs and three (out of 4) elements. They didn't use the outer planets - instead they had

Fool = Air
Hanged Man = Water
Judgement = Fire

The entire Major Arcana was said to represent Earth.

Even so there are still arguments about this allocation - should the outer planets be included as some of the above systems do?

When it comes to the Court Cards and the Minors you can just about make anything fit - even the argument about which suits represent Fire and Air is still going.

It comes down to personal feel - do you use say Queens as the Cardinal signs - Cardinal Water (Cancer) = Queen of Cups?

I've always fancied the King of Cups as Pisces, but that's a mutable sign and most seem to allocate the mutables to the Knights (Princes). I suppose the answer is if it works for you then keep to it.

Rusty Neon
06-04-2003, 04:56
Originally posted by Minderwiz

The Golden Dawn basically divided 22 trumps into Seven planets, 12 signs and three (out of 4) elements. They didn't use the outer planets - instead they had

Fool = Air
Hanged Man = Water
Judgement = Fire

The entire Major Arcana was said to represent Earth.

I had always thought that the Golden Dawn viewed the Major Arcana as Spirit or Ether, via--vis the Fire, Water, Earth, Air of the minor arcana's suits.

Cerulean
06-04-2003, 08:40
I think many different and modern practioners pull from old Golden Dawn sources, so I cited combinations mostly from Mary Greer and Joseph Martin--your reading might be from other sources or your tarot may disagree with me.
The reason I was trying to get a small handle on this is I'm very interested in using the astrology deck of the Oracle of the Radiant Sun with another tarot. At the moment, I matched the oracle in a card pull with another art tarot---but it was more myself matching up the prettiness of the pictures and small size of the cards.
Even though there are 84 cards in the astrology deck, there's not a clear correspondence to tarot cards, as you have commented upon...
When I do get a card in the tarot pack-say 10 of Swords, which is Sun in Gemini---I pulled a match with the Sun in Gemini from the Oracle of the Radiant Sun. Kind of quirky, and one has to scramble to remember in a Rider Waite Smith style deck, the dawn is rising to reveal the aftermath of the horror. Sun in Gemini isn't the easiest explanation, more of a challenge to create a poem or story.
To add to this instance, if I had a spread with a 10 of Swords and the Lovers, I'll have to also use the Sun in Gemini card from the oracle to match the Lovers Card...can you hear me telling someone, "Well, to be honest, this looks like a Romeo and Juliet story." I'll experiment some more.
Maybe I should only mix deck readings for a final outcome or a simple three card reading.

Rusty Neon
06-04-2003, 10:26
Originally posted by Mari_Hoshizaki
I think many different and modern practioners pull from old Golden Dawn sources, so I cited combinations mostly from Mary Greer and Joseph Martin--your reading might be from other sources or your tarot may disagree with me.

Mari ... The best source for GD is the source itself (e.g., Regardie's Golden Dawn book which contains many of the GD manuscripts, some of which you can also find on the internet, like Book "T"), rather than secondary sources such as the writings of Greer or Martin.

The GD papers show:

Fool = Air
Hanged Man = Water
Judgement = Fire

Using the new planets in tarot correspondences is a post-GD innovation. Not that there is anything wrong with new planets .... or post-GD innovations.

Hope this helps.

Best regards
RustyNeon

Cerulean
06-04-2003, 10:52
I've heard someone-Lon Duquette? Michael Kraig(Llewellyn?) speak fondly of the GD Treatise, if this is the one that is almost an encyclopedia in itself?
I'm running to pick up one from a small outlet that I think I saw it...
Mari H>

Rusty Neon
06-04-2003, 11:02
Mari ... Many of the GD papers in Regardie's encylopedic book don't treat explictly of tarot but can be useful in any event. Many of the GD papers that are most directly related to tarot have been assembled by Wang in his book to accompany his Golden Dawn tarot deck. As mentioned, you can also find the GD's Book "T" on the web. By the way, Wang's other book _The Qabalistic Tarot_ is probably the most accurate secondary source on GD views of the tarot. Also check out www.supertarot.co.uk, but watch for possible Crowley innovations to GD views as Paul follows Crowley's Thoth deck quite closely.

I'm still a Neanderthal when it comes to astrology. For relating astrology to tarot, get a good introductory astrology book. Personally, I really like Fairfield's _Choice-Centered Astrology_ because it uses mix-and-match phrases for constructing planet/sign, sign/house, and planet/house combinations. A good horary astrology book can also be inspirational for tarot, e.g., _Horary Astrology Plain & Simple_ by Anthony Louis. Hamaker-Zondag's book on horary also looked good from my quick perusal at the store.

** Last edited to correct the internet link (stray comma).

Cerulean
06-04-2003, 13:33
...because this is a growing area of interest for me.
Once in awhile the Qabbalistic Tarot text by Wang has surfaced at another used bookstore. I've seen his name listed mentioned several times for reference...The title was not on my wishlist because I wince sometimes when I look at his tarot...still keep it for puzzled historical reference. Sometimes I think about his Jungian Tarot, but its not my first wishlist choice.
I actually had already picked up the Regardie book after your post. That's a bit of a historical tome...
Anthony Louis does have a website as well. And Paul's SuperTarot site has my admiration, because I've checked out his postings several times. He is very well versed in Crowley details, I believe.

Rusty Neon
06-04-2003, 17:59
Mari ... I wouldn't be put off by Wang's two decks when it comes deciding whether or not to obtain the _Qabalistic Tarot_ book. One mustn't confuse Wang the tarot artist and Wang the author (even though he's the same individual). It's a good book. I really enjoy his astrological takes on the small cards of the minor arcana. And he goes into the GD system of tarot and astro-tarot. A good user's guide to help understand the GD's tarot papers. Check the book out next time you see it at the store, to see if it interests you.

Minderwiz
07-04-2003, 03:49
I took my interpretation of the Golden Dawn associations from an essay on their site:

http://www.hermeticgoldendawn.org/Documents/Essays/tarot.htm

I've use this site regularly and its a good source of esoteric thought.

Cerulean
07-04-2003, 05:29
Thank you again for all the associative links. Especially the Golden Dawn references--they had a fascination for art and history that reflects my curiousity as well.
At some point, if one gently eases into these areas of all the associations in that last website article, the various cultural souces still amaze me. I believe I only have a passing acquaintance with a few of the cultures that the GD concepts sprang from.
I hope you don't mind me taking time to sort through what works for me. I find the GD fascinating for what they mind-melded together. I gleaned some threads, which I'd been following separately in my own interests...
...Historical Egyptology assignments of gods and goddesses (as some mythology people suggest, the attributes of certain gods or goddesses varied with the time periods and region of the Egyptian empire-so the beauty and wonder of the GD system reflects their knowledge and beliefs of Egypt at that point).
...Chalcadean/Babylonian astrology of zodiac and decanate assignments that flowed into the some of the art of the Late Middle Ages and Renaissance (as the concepts of time/calendars evolved).
...and maybe, much later, Tree of Life or Christian Cabalah concepts that might have arisen out of the influxes of Hebrew scholars into certain areas of Europe...there may be associations in Northern Italy in certain pivotal times--I'm still figuring out how Francis Yates/Michael Dummat discuss this topic .
Thanks again for the resources.
Mari H.

(...and of course, the visible art that flowed from the fingers of Lady Frieda Harris and Pamela Colman Smith had even more influences. I see art deco for Lady Harris and beautiful PreRaphaelite/Victorian watercolor and Japanese print touches in Pamela Colman Smith's work.)

stardancer
08-04-2003, 03:05
I've made up my own with different logic here and there.

Fool Aries (Aries because both influences are infants)
Magician Mercury (Skills in communications and dexterity)
High Priestess Virgo (Spirituality - Vestal virgins - New Age religion)
Empress Venus (Pure woman)
Emperor Mars (Pure man)
High Priest Capricorn (Spirituality - Patriarchal ideas - Old Age religion)
Lovers Gemini (Split choices and directions)
Chariot Sagittarius (The ability to conquor)
Strength Leo (The ability to command)
Hermit Cancer (The inner sense of being)
Wheel Jupiter (Chance)
Justice Libra (Equilibrium and action=reaction)
Hanged Man Neptune (Nothing is apparent or deliberate)
Death Pluto (God of the underworld)
Temperance Taurus (Taurus is deliberate ergo temperate)
Devil Scorpio (The temptation of feelings out of control)
Tower Uranus (all hell breaking loose)
Star Aquarius (Humanitarianism and hope)
Moon Moon (Emotions and dark)
Sun Sun (Spirit and light)
Judgement Saturn (The maturity to be able to choose)
World Pisces (Pisces because both are cosmic maturity)

Anyone is welcome to add their own ideas to mine, or differ, since it's good mental exercise and a good teaching/learning tool.

Btw, due to my Libra nature I have taken to calling The Hierophant, the High Priest, because he's the counterpart of The High Priestess.