PDA

View Full Version : What type of person is this....


214red
08-01-2010, 20:23
Hi Folks

I will be starting the study group again next week, in the meantime its a chance to have more fun.

I have a chart of someone i know, who is not famous (so cannot be googled), have a look and see what you can tell me about them, they are male, late 30s.I have asked for permission to share his chart.

-What is their romantic life like, why?
-what work are they likely to do, why?
-how do you think they relate to others


these are just some of the questions you might want to answer.

Nik

214red
08-01-2010, 20:26
Duh would help if i attached the chart....

le.jour.obscurcit
08-01-2010, 20:58
Duh would help if i attached the chart....

I can't see the chart very well. Perhaps copy the image/gif link from astro.com and use it to upload it to photobucket or another image hosting site that will NOT shrink the image's size. kthnxbye

214red
08-01-2010, 22:11
sadly i cant do that at work as i cant access photobucket or anything of that nature, also its a gif file from astro.com so you should be able to zoom in, there are size restrictions on AT so you have to compress the file

Kibeth
08-01-2010, 23:24
Might I suggest this site... http://www.alabe.com/freechart/

Bigger.

214red
08-01-2010, 23:39
hi Kibeth, problem is with ATs uploading file size, so the chart is compressed, hence why i am suggesting people save it as a file and then open it and zoom in

ncefafn
09-01-2010, 01:12
I don't suppose you could give us the date, time and place of birth so we could calculate it ourselves, could you?

214red
09-01-2010, 01:21
Kibeth has said the same thing via PM and is going to upload a bigger chart, i dont want to post it here as although its unlikely i dont want someone who knows him to see it, he wouldnt like that.

sorry i was a bit short in the other message, having a hectic day today.

Kibeth
09-01-2010, 09:41
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y90/lopaceria_2000/2455205962571xxx.gif

dadsnook2000
09-01-2010, 10:41
This is an interesting chart. My eye was immediately taken to the Ascending Sun-Neptune-Mercury conjunction in Sag., with the Ascendant in Scorpio. I was writing elsewhere today that there is a big difference between a planet (or in this case, planets) in the first house and a planet(s) on the Ascendant.

What is on the Ascendant is who we are, what we think, our attitudes, actions, decisions. What is in the first house, on the other hand, is what we experience, our environment, the nature of what we find about us.

In this chart we find three planets in the first house and the Ascendant is quite removed and in another sign. This seems, for me, to enhance the concept of what's on the Ascendant versus what's in the first house. I think, that if I were to look at the whole chart, that this distinction would be quite important.

Neptune in the middle of the Sun and Mercury suggests a possible dichotomy: We might have great immagination here, an ability to enjoy and create fantasy, to be self-inspiring --- all of this being more in the style of life that we revel in rather than being quite so direct in driving these attributes through our personality and efforts. Perhaps we might say this statement reflects more of a participatory environment rather than an initiative nature.

On the other hand, this person may gravitate to those circumstance where writers and creative people work, where deception and likely-to-fail dreams are building up and falling down, where decision (overt, unintentional, or entertaining) occurs.

Perhaps a bit of both side of these meanings. Yet, we can look at this as separate from the Ascendant in Scorpio. The environment is active and imaginative, but the person views life from a more personal and private place, trying to assess (perhaps) the circumstances that surrounds them from a private place where one seeks to understand the motivations of others.

The Ascendant is "empty" of planets but does form a nice semi-square to Jupiter in Capricorn/2nd house. If we use the "phase angle" system of looking at planets/points, we see that Jupiter is in the 2nd of 8 phases, also known as the phase of struggling to find one's own sense of expression that is different from the family's or cultural expression that one grew up within. So, we might say that Jupiter is one's sense of social enlargement, of the ability to see and solicit opportunity. Here, the inner, hesitant and private Scorpio personality is struggling to adapt and participate within the style of imagination and creation that surrounds them.

We have here a butterfly seeking to emerge from one world into another. if only the rules of life were a little clearer instead of being so freewheeling and spontaneous.

Since the natal chart is "potential", this theme will need to play out over time and its "time of emergence" will be determined by others, by circumstances and by other cycles that come together. That is another area to explore.

Now, all of this needs to be incorporated within the whole chart, and these few words will not tell the whole story. I'll leave it to others to explore this chart and its other aspects as well as to comment on my views. But, it was hard to resist taking a look at this first house grouping and the small, critical disquiet of that Scorpio Ascendant.

So, now I've shared a bit of the process that someone who has spent too much of their life in astrology finds themselves in sometimes. We tend to dwell on little things that catch our eye. We think, we have trained ourselves to think, differently. We see life though a glass slightly tinted. I hope this has helped those who find themselves earlier in their journey. Dave

le.jour.obscurcit
09-01-2010, 11:33
sadly i cant do that at work as i cant access photobucket or anything of that nature, also its a gif file from astro.com so you should be able to zoom in, there are size restrictions on AT so you have to compress the file

If I were able to zoom in, I wouldn't have said anything...

lilangel09
09-01-2010, 13:23
This is an interesting chart. My eye was immediately taken to the Ascending Sun-Neptune-Mercury conjunction in Sag., with the Ascendant in Scorpio. I was writing elsewhere today that there is a big difference between a planet (or in this case, planets) in the first house and a planet(s) on the Ascendant.

What is on the Ascendant is who we are, what we think, our attitudes, actions, decisions. What is in the first house, on the other hand, is what we experience, our environment, the nature of what we find about us.

I'm not familiar with this concept and would like some clarification. How does a person differentiate what's in the first house and what's on the Ascendant? If planets are in the same sign as the Ascendant and in the first house, are they considered to be on the Ascendant?

ncefafn
09-01-2010, 13:29
I'm not familiar with this concept and would like some clarification. How does a person differentiate what's in the first house and what's on the Ascendant? If planets are in the same sign as the Ascendant and in the first house, are they considered to be on the Ascendant?

I think what Dave is saying is that planets that are conjunct the Ascendant are different from planets that are in the first house but not in aspect to the Ascendant. For instance, I have Moon and Jupiter in the first house, but only the Moon is in aspect to the Ascendant. Therefore, as I understand the theory, the Moon is who I am -- moody, sensitive, retiring, changeable. Jupiter is what I experience -- great good fortune.

I wonder if planets that make hard aspects to the Ascendant from other houses are considered to be "on" the Ascendant for this purpose as well?

lilangel09
09-01-2010, 13:43
I think what Dave is saying is that planets that are conjunct the Ascendant are different from planets that are in the first house but not in aspect to the Ascendant. For instance, I have Moon and Jupiter in the first house, but only the Moon is in aspect to the Ascendant. Therefore, as I understand the theory, the Moon is who I am -- moody, sensitive, retiring, changeable. Jupiter is what I experience -- great good fortune

Oh, okay. I understand now. Thank you very much for clearing that up! :)

Kibeth
09-01-2010, 18:20
The Sagi sun and Scorpio ascendant combination strikes me as a lucky guy, as per Sagittarius sun, but may be acting extremely pessimistic because he believes talking about it would drown out that same luck somehow. But his naturally lucky streak will out.

To have such a dark Rising sign makes one wonder what kind of things he'd have been through.

214red
09-01-2010, 19:48
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y90/lopaceria_2000/2455205962571xxx.gif
thanks muchly kibeth

214red
09-01-2010, 19:52
Thanks dadsnook2000 for the start off!

There are already a lot of good comments, i picked this chart because he and his chart is very interesting. His job links very closely to how he relates emotionally, its an occupation you really can see a mars in scorpio do.

also the 7th house is a big clue to his love life

will feedback tomorrow

franniee
09-01-2010, 21:42
I copy it to my desktop and open it in preview or a picture opening program and then I can zoom.

dadsnook2000
10-01-2010, 00:27
Well, the astrological comments on this chart have been few and far between. I'm sure that somebody would like to conjecture about:

Virgo MC with Pluto in the 10th.

Venus/Mars in the 11th sextile Moon in the 8th/9th.

Saturn trine Uranus, 7th to 11th.

Venturing views and discussing those views is how we learn. Dave

ncefafn
10-01-2010, 01:09
Well, okay, I'll try. With the ruler of the ascendant in the 11th house (Mars - I use the old rulers), this makes me think that he's a very philanthropic person, cares very much about making the world a better place, and about the groups he belongs to. With the Sun conj Neptune, I expect that he's a very kind and sensitive person, which makes me think he's in some sort of helping profession. This to me is echoed by the ruler of the 10th conj Neptune as well.

dadsnook2000
10-01-2010, 01:54
OK, thats a great start. Now, let's reduce all of that to a short simple statement such as, "A very sensitive and caring person who seeks to help others thru his/her work."

Let's consider adding to that statement by first deducing how Venus-conjunct-Mars and the square to the Moon in the 8th/Leo might work out. Once you have this Venus-Mars square Moon deciphered, we'll turn it into a statement to be added to the above statement. And, don't be worried if it doesn't fit with the above condensed statement. It will all work out in the end. Good luck, and thanks for stepping forward. Dave

ncefafn
10-01-2010, 02:07
I have to break it down further than that, and consider each aspect separately. I'm not good at synthesizing.

Moon square Venus suggests that what he needs from a woman emotionally and what he needs romantically are at odds. Moon in Leo suggests he needs praise, adoration, but also fun and playfulness. What he wants romantically is passion, depth, intensity, which is somewhat at odds with the flavor of Leo, but the potential for drama is there in both. The difference to me is light-hearted versus hot and heavy drama.

Moon square Mars suggests to me that he's got a firecracker temper. Hit a nerve, and he'll go off. Also, his need for emotional nurturing and security is at odds with his drive. He either risks too much or not enough.

Venus conjunct Mars says he's quite passionate, and probably great in the sack. :D He's sexy as all get out, with both of them in Scorpio. With Venus the ruler of the 7th house, being in the 11th house and conjunct his Mars, he probably will want to marry someone who supports or is already involved with his causes, and will definitely want it to be a friend.

dadsnook2000
10-01-2010, 03:13
The first thing to say is that you are indeed capable of synthesizing astro combinations. I've always operated on the theory that any big problem could be broken down into little ones that could be solved. This is what we are doing here. We don't get to that astrological stage where a "one minute scan of the chart gives us the whole picture" capability very easily --- if we ever do. Whether we ever can or not is beside the point; we shouldn't because it cheats us and the client of the dignity and respect they deserve. If the chart is the person, then we have to treat it nicely.

Your first statement about emotional and romantic needs are something that a woman would get immediately -- a great observation. See, you've taught me something valuable. That Mars/Scorpio square Moon/Leo is tricky to live with, I'm sure. Mars wants too much to control, to know how the partner values him. A sort of aggressive insecurity, almost. Constant affirmation.

When I look at Mars conjunct Venus I think of "personal poise", an attitude of confidence. The square to the Moon belies that somehow. Perhaps the praise has to be indirect or "coded" so as to assure but not condescend? This is a tough pattern to nail down all by itself.

The "temper" seems like a good observation in this case. Although it might be subject to specific situations being in play. It would seem that the extremes that are possible would leave him tentative in the early stages of a relationship --- less so as maturity is gained. I wonder what hard-and-fast patterns are adopted?

So, let's put another short statement in place! "This person is passionate and emotional but sometimes has difficulty in understanding the responses of others or his/her own reasons for personal conduct in relationships." Ncefafn, you are free to concoct your own statements if you wish.

We'll piece this together in a later posting. What strikes me now is that we should look at the basic nature of this person --- The Sun-Moon combination! Perhaps this will give us some additional insights so that we can be happy with balancing the observations we have made so far.

So, HOW WOULD YOU ASSESS THE SUN-MOON RELATIONSHIP IN THIS CHART? Once we have that nailed down, perhaps it will balance out what we have observed so far. Dave

ncefafn
10-01-2010, 03:36
Well, let's see. The Sun and Moon are trine, both in fire signs. This tells me that his need for fulfillment as a person is in harmony with his need for emotional security. What he does with his life and his emotional needs do not conflict. If anything, they support each other. The more fulfilled he is emotionally, the more free he is to go out and conquer the world. The more he fulfills his destiny as a human being, the more secure he feels inside. The Sun and Moon are central to one's identity, and this harmony suggests that despite the conflicts with his Venus/Mars, he's generally a happy person, well-rounded and well-balanced.

dadsnook2000
10-01-2010, 04:08
Yes, the Sun and Moon are in trine relationship. If seen in terms of phase angles, the Moon is in the "honest man" phase wherein the subject tries to be open and direct in how they handle the nature of their character. Being a role model would be important to one's dignity and work.

HOWEVER, there is a fly in the ointment! Pluto. Pluto is at the mid-point of the Sun and Moon positions. As Ebertin notes in his Combination of Stellar Influences, "A soul torn by inner conflict, biased attitude or changed circumstances lead to critical phases of development in life or to separation from others." Not a comforting picture. And, over some 40 years, I've come to find that these interpretations can almost be taken literally.

Modern astrologers tend to link Pluto to Scorpio due to some of the characteristics attributed to that sign. This would represent a dark, sometimes morose or inner-focused person who is always trying to understand himself through the process of understanding others. This would fit with earlier statements about needing constant assurance.

So, what do we do next? I would suggest we play detective and examine the Saturn-Moon relationship. This combination points to the perceived restrictions of early family life, the factors which might carry over into adult life that could inhibit the freeing up of emotional and responsive patterns, problems with constraints from women --- the whole host of possible astro interpretations regarding these two key players in our charts. So, on to the next step. Am I tiring you out? We can ask for a substitution here. Dave

214red
10-01-2010, 06:33
This discussion is very enjoyable to read, i hope it is to partake too:-)

Thanks to ncefafn and dadsnook2000 for livening the thread up, i like the way Dave you have helped drill down into the nub of the issue.

dadsnook2000
10-01-2010, 09:49
Drilling down is a good term for what is happening here. Note that I have not suggested any "final" attributes or characteristics for this person. The chart is actually quite complex, although that is not obvious at first glance. The chart and person is complex. Instead of ending up taking one side or the other side of conflicting patterns, I often find that the chart/person finds ways of blending or alternating between one side of their nature and the other side. This is particularly true when we find trines and sextiles present.

So, 214red, are you now volunteering to pick up for ncefafn with the Saturn-Moon situation? Dave

214red
10-01-2010, 20:28
Drilling down is a good term for what is happening here. Note that I have not suggested any "final" attributes or characteristics for this person. The chart is actually quite complex, although that is not obvious at first glance. The chart and person is complex. Instead of ending up taking one side or the other side of conflicting patterns, I often find that the chart/person finds ways of blending or alternating between one side of their nature and the other side. This is particularly true when we find trines and sextiles present.

So, 214red, are you now volunteering to pick up for ncefafn with the Saturn-Moon situation? Dave
the reason i picked this chart was because i know him well, but also studied his charts as one of my case studies so its no point me adding to the discussion until its finished and i feedback.

however it would be a good idea if this was a trend and people every once in awhile posted a chart for us to look at, and as you say drill down, then i will happily join in!

dadsnook2000
10-01-2010, 21:54
Well, the pleasure of being in a class and of teaching a class is that there is participation, give and take, growing understanding, a feeling of accomplishment at the end of each session. Here on the AT Astrology forum it is also a question of sharing and growing in our understanding and doing so in a "safe" environment. We don't see harshness, or insensitive put-downs here.

So, we are in search of participation. If we don't find it here, how will we find it in 214red's postings on the basics of astrology? It's one thing to discuss the effects of Mercury in the 2nd house --- who knows if what you say is right or just a whacky opinion or part right? Here we have a chart, a real person. These are real planets, houses, signs, aspects. What we come up with here, right or wrong or just a bit off-key, can be compared to reality.

Not only that, we are being introduced to two study components that you will not often find on line. First, we are dealing with the natural complexity of conflicting patterns and the problem that ncefafn referred to -- synthesis. There is nothing more exciting then to put the basics together and mixing them well to achieve a blending.

Second, we are exposed to the thinking processes of those more experienced in looking at charts. We see that conflicting assumptions are immediately focused upon. What else is behind this conflict? How does this help or hinder the person in the chart? If A doesn't fit with B and if C isn't understood relative to either of them, what do I look for next? You see, it isn't that there is one way to read a chart. Curiousity can take us on many paths --- and that is OK. But, there has to be a "curiosity factor" in each participant.

So, again, I ask, "Who wants to help explore what the relationship between Saturn and the Moon means in this chart in terms of how early life experiences and up-bringing and parental influence might have shaped this person such that there are now some conflicts to be worked out? For the benefit of others, I would not like to see "thundering silence". Dave

ncefafn
11-01-2010, 00:41
I don't want to hog the whole discussion, but if no one else raises their hand, I'll pop back in and give my take on the Moon/Saturn thing.

dadsnook2000
11-01-2010, 00:59
Two issues:

First, thank you for agreeing to continue in our interpretive partnership. You should certainly question or discuss anything I put forward since I am not always correct in an assessment. There are many "truths."

Second, perhaps you could share with me what the name "ncefafn" means. I am really curious about that. Dave

ncefafn
11-01-2010, 01:17
Two issues:

First, thank you for agreeing to continue in our interpretive partnership. You should certainly question or discuss anything I put forward since I am not always correct in an assessment. There are many "truths."

Second, perhaps you could share with me what the name "ncefafn" means. I am really curious about that. Dave

NCEFAFN=Not Cool Enough For A Funky Nickname. In reasonable circles, I am known as Kim. :)

Okay, so on with the astrology. At first, I didn't think there was any relationship between the Moon and Saturn, and then I did the math and noticed that there is a semi-square there. If squares are tension, I think of semi-squares as a burr in one's britches. It's just niggling irritation, suggesting there may have been some underlying, unspoken tension in the childhood home between the parents.

With the Moon and Saturn in the 8th and 7th houses, respectively, this niggling tension could well carry over into his romantic relationships, specifically, his long-term commitments. I read Saturn in the 7th as a fear of commitment and marriage.

I've never had a really good grasp of the 8th house. I know it rules occult studies, other people's money, insurance, taxes, death, but I have difficulty incorporating those things into a reading. What I tend to fall back on is Zipporah Dobyns key number system, linking the 8th house with Scorpio. So I read the Moon in the 8th as needing deep connections. Perhaps he had an intense bond with his mother, picking up empathically on her emotions as a child. Any tension she felt , he would have felt too, which might thus discourage him from marrying.

I'm having a hard time reconciling Moon in Leo with Moon in the 8th house. Leo is playful, sunny, dramatic and fun-loving (also proud). The 8th house is intense and somewhat secretive. I don't know how to synthesize those two polarities.

I was going to try to analyze the 4th and 10th houses, but that looked like a "down the rabbit hole" situation to me, so I backed off. Someone else can take a whack at that.

dadsnook2000
11-01-2010, 04:06
In our physical culture, Saturn represents our accepted limits, our fears and boundaries that others set for us, the authority figure(s) in early life and role that we see them performing ("that we see" is often different from what they do). Moon plays its role in connection with Saturn (Moon has a connection with every planet) as conditioning, as an early/youthful itdentity. Moon is also our habit patterns, our memory, our sense of the past, our primary needs. So, there is a lot of potential for personal disruption between these two astrological symbols.

I'm going to start my comments with looking at Saturn and Moon in terms of their PHASE ANGLE RELATIONSHIP. I would note that the archive section has a great number of presentations by me using Phase Angles where the slowest moving planet is seen as the anchor planet, the faster moving body as the expressive planet. Dane Rudhyar wrote a book called the Lunation Cycle which layed out the concept of eight phases for the Moon in relation to the Sun. Marc Robertson picked up on these phase relationships and then developed a concept using eight pairs of planets that could be used to paint a portrait of any chart owner.

Saturn at 18 Gemini in the 7th house is the anchor point. Moon at 2 Leo in the 8th house is very close to being 45 degrees (1/8th of a circle) ahead of Saturn. This second 45 degree segment between 45 and 90 degrees is the Crescent Phase, a phase that represents struggle. Permit me to quote in part from Marc Robertson's book, The Engine of Destiny.

"Your great struggle in life will be to adopt an identity that will take you out of the past and put you on the road to the future. This will be . . . a struggle because you aims, and the methods you've been taught are often antagonistic to one another." Remember the earlier issues I raised about the duality in this person's character?

". . . you have to be flexible in adapting your methods . . . the past will often make impossible your real goals . . . . it may take a new time, a new face, and surely a new attitude to become more flexible in life." At the start of this phase angle, life will seem to force you to make adjustments because the old, learned way of life is just not working.

SATURN IN THE 7th signifies a rigid approach to partnerships, perhaps even a refusal or reluctance to grow through these relationships. Saturn isn't at home in this sign, not liking the implied changing nature that Gemini suggests. The 7th house has all of the symbolic meanings related to its opposition to the Ascendant (experiences): Partners, marriage, opposition, enemies, controversy, disagreement. The pressures of our culture seem to make it easier to adopt the negative connotations.

MOON IN THE 8th signifies a need to get what one feels they deserve. I see the 8th as being the house of unequal sharing. One always want's the best of the bargain. Being the second house of the partner's (7th house) house, the 8th signifies the resources of others, resources shared, resources that may come through gains by inheritance as well as resources that may have to be given away due to taxes or lawsuits. We see money traded for sex when a younger woman marries an older man, we see legalities employed to gain advantage over another, we see murder or theft to take the possessions of another. No wonder the 8th house is seen as a dark and very unfriendly place. The Moon likes dependable situations inspite of its own changeableness. If it changes, it can only deal with change if other things stay relatively constant. The Moon remembers. The Moon needs. In the 8th the Moon may develop a greedy side or an unreasonable demand for assurance or guarantee from another. This is a bad place for the Moon.

So, how does one find their own, natural, best-for-them identity? How does one trust another, find someone who will be stable for them? How much can one demand from a relationship without having to give as much back? If this person, this chart, has to give back, what can it offer in trade? IF WE CAN ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS WE WILL HAVE THE KEY TO UNDERSTANDING THE WHOLE CHART.

At this point, I will leave it up in the air so that EVERYONE can discuss this chart and this Saturn-Moon dilemma as if it was separate from the rest of the chart. Ncefafn will, I'm sure, be forward enough to comment on this. It would be supportive of what this list is trying to do in terms of learning, if others would also comment. Dave

Minderwiz
11-01-2010, 04:45
I've tried to keep out of the discussion for several reasons;

Firstly I've been quite busy recently with family things and secondly because I also had difficulty reading the small chart (a combination of old age and already poor eyesight LOL). I'm not going to give a reading because I think that will stifle discussion, as I think Dave recognised in his previous post. Instead I'll draw attention to a number of factors that I'd attach importance too (without being in anyway precise)

I'll start with a 'by the way' point BTW if someone doesn't want you to disclose their natal details then I'd stear clear of posting their chart, as that DOES give their details - I'll not reveal them, as clearly that would betray information given to you in confidence.

Dave drew attantion to the first house planets - I agree wholeheartedly with his distinction between planets on the Ascendant and planets IN the first house. So we have a Scorpio Ascendant, ruled by Mars in the eleventh (but near the cusp of the twelfth - indeed in the twelfth in some house systems. Mars rules the twelfth.

Mars is also in an applying conjunction with Venus, ruler of the seventh. There are clearly a number of possibe interpretations of this, romance with friends, secret affairs, are possibles.

Returning to the first house - we have Sun and Mercury (I'll ignore Neptune but Dave gave a fairly standard interpretation of the role of Neptune). Mercury rules the MC, so career and social status are given additional importance from Mercury's angular position. Mercury has an important role - but is it fit to carry the role out? Essentially it is in detriment in Sagittarius, it is also Retrograde, Combust and oriental. I'm not sure that this person would be creative, or at least succesfully creative. The first house is the body, so does this person express themselves more using body language (especiay the hands) than verbal formulations? Do they have to work at expressing themselves effectively (for exampe through stammering) though by their current age that may well be something that has been overcome.

Virgo careers tend to be office workers, accountants, mid-level managers and planners - Is this a career that you think would work well for this person?

Seventh house Saturn is ruled by Mercury, and again gives us a planet in an angular house but not in the same sign. Does Saturn give a strengthening to relationships and more permanance and structure or are we dealing with a weak Saturn that perhaps symbolises fear and an unwillingness to commit?

Saturn also squares the MC - what stress does Saturn bring to this person's career?

The Moon clearly also has a significant importance, trining Sun and Mercury but squaring Venus and Mars. How will the Moon colour the way this person interacts with others?

Of course one thing that has not been considered is the underlying temperament and how the above will modify that temperament.

One final point for people to consider as a background issue to the discussion - How would knowledge of Progressions and Directions modify our picture?

dadsnook2000
12-01-2010, 04:42
Up to this point we have many conflicting patterns. Lets review what we have found so that we don't lose our way.

** Sun, Neptune, Mercury in 1st house indicated sensitivity, a lack of focus, imagination, dreams, a love of drama, one who doesn't get it.

** Venus, Mars square Moon indicated a emotional person whose romantic views often clashed with emotional needs. Perhaps a strong temper evident.

** Sun, Moon relationship sought to be open with others, led a role-model life. But, Pluto at the mid-poin pointed to a lot of inner conflict.

** Saturn and Moon relationship points to a struggle to live with and move away from early conditioning.

There is a lot more detail given in previous posts, but the above listing does pick up on most of the main points. There is more that could be said about any of the above patterns, and everyone is free to bring up what they see.

"ncefafn", the actually cool lady from the woods, had indicated in her last post that the MC-IC axis was something she didn't want to touch, equating it to Alice jumping down the rabbit hole. BUT, that is just what we want to pursue next. If Saturn-Moon paints how we deal with early conditioning, the nature of the 4-10 axis, signs and rulers will paint a picture of what that environment might have been. If we know that, we can speculate on the nature of the home and early training as well as how this individual is having problems living with those past days and expectations.

So, lets march off and look at the 4-10 axis. This should be easy and anyone may choose to join in. In fact, if you don't, then 214red may cry a bit out of frustration over this learning group that is coming together. Dave

214red
13-01-2010, 00:59
i might cry but not because of the lack of participation, i injured my back yesterday so i am stuck at home unable to really move...so its been enjoyable reading the discussion on the chart.

i can see that perhaps we do need to make sure in the study group we include examples of charts to illistrate how to apply what we have learnt. I also think astrology is sometimes easy to learn the parts, but putting it together is another issue.

part of me thinks seeing this discussion if we had a test chart to review at the end of each thread we would gain more insight.

Minderwiz
13-01-2010, 01:16
Hope you are OK!!

Yes chart exercises are a good idea, but the issue is getting people to comment. Keeping it focused is the key, maybe one or two issues at most, then later on we can turn the attention to integration, though (and this is a rather heretical statement) it's somewhat over-rated.

Study group members have to learn to walk before they can run, so don't worry too much about putting it all together, that will come later

214red
13-01-2010, 01:30
i like to run before i can walk, hence i am stuck in bed with an ice pack on my back...lol

ncefafn
13-01-2010, 01:47
Virgo and Pisces are on the 10th/4th cusps, respectively. Their rulers, Mercury and Neptune are both conjunct the Sun. My guess from this would be that his childhood home was dominated by his father, with the mother looking to her husband for confirmation of her parenting decisions. With the Sun, Mercury and Neptune in the client's first house, his father had a big influence on the development of the client's personality.

Minderwiz
13-01-2010, 02:21
i like to run before i can walk, hence i am stuck in bed with an ice pack on my back...lol

This is not the weather to run in LOL

Minderwiz
13-01-2010, 02:27
Virgo and Pisces are on the 10th/4th cusps, respectively. Their rulers, Mercury and Neptune are both conjunct the Sun. My guess from this would be that his childhood home was dominated by his father, with the mother looking to her husband for confirmation of her parenting decisions. With the Sun, Mercury and Neptune in the client's first house, his father had a big influence on the development of the client's personality.

Why isn't it the other way around and mother is the dominant?

I'm simply looking for your reasoning here, I'm not disagreeing with you (except that Jupiter is the ruler of Pisces LOL). If both angle rulers are conjunct the Sun in the first, why is one stronger than the other as an influence?

dadsnook2000
13-01-2010, 05:38
Ncefafn, let's make some mountains out of molehills. Dramatization sometimes leads us to see small, important things within the larger and perhaps outlandish dramatic scenes. AND, the other list (members) who are lurking but not offering opinions should follow this closely. What follows is not a "you are wrong" statement but is a "could it be this way" statement. It's intended to be a discussion opener.

I would not treat the 4-10 axis so simply as to just note that the rulers are in conjunction in the first house. They are, but we also have to keep in mind all of the other short, summary "conclusions" that we have arrived at --- although we know that we might change some of them as we go along.

Let us go back through the steps that one could take, making the most our of each factor --- dramatizing them for the moment in terms of their childhood meanings!

** MC @ 18 Virgo; Particular, possibly exact or demanding goals, visions and role models are set within the family structure.

** IC @ 18 Pisces; Unrealistic, vague or lack of clarity exists in terms of values, when to start or stop activities, the nature of what is observed or experienced.

** Ruler of the MC is Mercury; represents how one communicate, understands and defines goals and directions to take in life.

** Ruler of the IC is Neptne; represents deception, lack of clarity, illusion, unreal expectations.

** Both 4-10 rulers conjunct each other in the first, and conjunct the Sun, ruler of the 9th. The 9th house represents foriegn travel, higher education and exotic areas of interest.

** Several planets are located in the early degrees of thier signs:
**** Moon @ 2 Leo
**** Pluto @ 3 Libra
**** Sun @ 3 Sag
**** Neptune @ 4 Sag
**** Mercury @ 5 Sag
**** Jupiter @ 9 Cap.
By definition, these planets all have aspectual relationships to each other. This has been noted before in previous posts. Additionally, several factprs are located at/near 18 degrees of some signs, which points to semi-squares (45 degree) and sesquiquadrate (135 degree) as well as square aspects. These hard aspects introduce several challenges of expression.
**** Saturn @ 18 Gemini
**** MC @ 18 Virgo
**** Uranus @ 21 Libra
**** North Node @ 17 Cap.

IT WOULD SEEM THAT THE WHOLE CHART IS TIED TO THE MC-IC AXIS AND/OR IT'S RULERS AND ASPECTS TO THEM.

As for the 4-10 axis, I see confusion for the young child/adult. It is seldom that we see Neptune between the Sun and Mercury. Using these as a mid-point structure, and referring to Neptune, we would find Ebertin saying, "The play of imagination, the development of fantasy, inspiration, to stimulate and deceive oneself . . ." From the book, Planetary Containments by Sandbach and Ballard (a astrological technique not familiar to most on this list) we find, "These individuals internalize their goals and objectives, and live them out through their fantasy-minds, rather than through the realm of solid reality. In this way, theeir energies are scattered and their long range plans may be quite vidid, but their efforts may be inconsistent. They are usually conscious of their obligations and are quite clever at meeting those responsibilities. Their energ, however, may be dissipated. These persons have a quick and vital imagination that will stand them in good stead."

Given the above, and given the prior-mentioned complexities, this person would have had an unreal set of issues to work through and deal with. For the purpose of discussion, we would DISCUSS this with the client if he/she were in front of us, we need to address these possiblities:

** Does this person have gender confusion due to the abnormal childhood environment? Are the parental roles extreme in terms of being fixed or nebulous?

** Has this resulted in this person being, or experimenting with, homosexuality? If so, has this had negative impacts upon them in early life?

** Has this person, since the mid-1970's at birth, and through the last decade, been able to reorient their early training and adult efforts to turn their aptitudes and artistic/dramatic skills, as well as their sensitivities to the problems of others, into a single or mixed-bag of career efforts?

Now, this is the sort of questioning and probing that a capable astrologer would take with a client. BECAUSE, AS GOOD AS WE MAY BE, WE CANNOT DEEPLY HELP SOMEONE WITHOUT HAVING A SENSE OF THE CONTEXT OF THEIR LIFE. WE NEED FEEDBACK IN ORDER TO ADJUST THE SYMBOLS OF THE CHARTS in terms of their commonality or dramatization, they manner in which they were experienced in younger years and may have change over time with experience. Only then can we dig deeper into the range of symbolic meaning to help a person who comes to us.

This is particularly true if we are dealing ONLY WITH A NATAL CHART. If we are asked questions relative to a period or tight date range, then we can employ many other astrological tools to add depth to our understanding. This has been mentioned by Minderwiz. This is something that I and other astrologer do. But, here, now, we are dealing just with a natal chart.

How did this person, this chart, develop over the first and second decade of their life? How was the symbols and patterns in this chart enforced by the charts/people in their family? This is now up for discussion. Dave

Minderwiz
13-01-2010, 06:46
ncefafn, is there an argument that 'Mother' is dominated by 'Father' in this chart? One possible approach could be to weigh the relative strength of their significators.

The 'Mother' is signified by the tenth House, and possibly the Moon (night chart) or Venus (Day chart). This is a night chart, so the Moon is a possibility. Looking at the tenth house, it's ruled by Mercury but has no significant planets in it. So Mercury and Moon could be significators. In terms of essential dignity Mercury as I pointed out before is quite weak in essential dignity and has several accidental debilities despite being in the first house. The Moon is stronger in essential dignity, but only through a mutual reception with Jupiter (by triplicity). It's in the eighth and it is squared by Mars so its accidental dignities are not good. So we have two weak significators.

For the father we have the fourth house ruler - which is Jupiter and not Neptune (which may or may not have an affinity with Pisces). Jupiter is in detriment in Capricorn but has a mutual reception with the Moon by triplicity and with Mercury by term overall Jupiter has positive essential dignity but not as strong as the Moon. However Jupiter is much better when it comes to accidental dignities. The second house is nowhere near as bad as the eighth. Jupiter has no bad aspects and even better it rules Mercury (one of the significators of the Mother) and it rules the Sun, which in turn rules the Moon (the other significator). Both Moon and Mercury are weaker than Jupiter and are in directly or indirectly ruled by it.

That might well lead you to conclude that the Father was more dominant than the Mother. Now as Dave points out this is a simplistic approach to the fourth/tenth axis but it has some Astrological basis. So your conclusion is not 'wrong' at all though we might want to look for several more supporting factors before we were willing to take it as something more than a tentative hypothesis.

As with the 'Mother' there are two significators that we could use for the 'Father' - the Sun in a day chart, Saturn in a night chart. This is a night chart, so Saturn would be the other significator. If Saturn is also stronger than Moon and Mercury, that might give you a little more faith in your hypothesis.


This argument is simplistic but it does provide some evidence to weigh along side other chart indicators. Don't be afraid to advance your ideas, but do try and explain why you think what you do - it helps you to learn if you can write down your reasoning and then think about it for a while, fine tune it and then put it forward for others to talk about. It helps you learn and it helps others learn - learning is not passive. If you're not sure then pose it as a possiblility or even a question

It was brave of you to advance your idea, don't be afraid to try other suggestions.

dadsnook2000
13-01-2010, 21:13
214red, ncefafn and I have put forth a discussion on this chart that examined all of the major apsects that one might cover. Although there are many methods of chart examination that might still be employed, what we have covered together does include all that this list's followers would likely use.

At this point I believe it would be good for you to provide some background on this person in terms of gender, current career focus, basic personality, early life within the family, and current life style and situation.

This would permit others to match up the provided background with the astro patterns discussed, to see what we saw in these patterns and how that did or did not link up with reality. This should lead to a more widespread discussion. Dave

214red
14-01-2010, 01:47
Thanks esp to Dave, Minderwiz, and ncefafn (loving the name btw)

I will use this post to give you ideas about the person behind the chart, i am also working and trying to catch up on the past few days , so i will do it peicemeal, and keep editing it until its finished. if you wish me to expand anything let me know as there is alot in this thread and i might miss something.

Employment history
James went to rather posh boarding school as a child as his parents travelled the world due to his fathers job. He then went to University and managed to scrape a pass, but only a 3rd in languages as he failed to apply himself. He then went into the army as this had run in the family (skipping his father) as he is patriotic, and adores his grandfather. He was a surveillance officer in the TA (although he will lead you to beleive its the full army), he enjoyed surveillance, this allowed him to feel he was fighting for his country, but doing something he was good at. after he left he floundered for a bit and did a few different things including sales, after a few years he found a suitable job with a government criminal investigation agency as a covert investigator, the agency is also a secretive agency, its not really on the radar.
He has a very moral outlook when it comes to his job, he is patriotic, and he is very good at dealing with all types of people. he likes this job because it allows him to feel like he is saving the world and is a good guy, whilst being involved in slighty dubious activities...but its all in the name of the government.

Although he is morally upright in his work life, he will often use this as deception to allow him to carry out things in his private life (like cheating)

relationship with Parents
never mentions father, adores his grandfather though and sees him as his role model more this his father, he does distance himself a bit from his fathers characteristics. However saying that he is rather more like his father then he would like, and a bit less like his grandfather which disappoints him. Doesnt beleive his mother loved him, or loves him, felt abandoned at boarding school and blames her for leaving him. Looks for mothering from partners to replace what he feels is missing.

Relationships
Has been married multiple times, and breaks up for the same reason all of his relationships break up, reality of the person doesnt live up to their ideal....he thinks every woman is 'the one', and start planning a woman in his head when he doesnt really know her, then he finds out she is a normal person he cheats to find another 'the one'. He is an overlapper, and always thinks someone else is really to blame and he is the innocent partner, however often picks woman that wont live up to his ideal...self sobataging.

he is attracted to women that are independant, ambitious, and are kind to animals and children....oh and who he feels are purer then him. however the scorpio in him gets the better of him, and if they cant be converted he moves on whilst still being in love with the original woman , hopes to change her.
Money
is not good with money, however is lucky enough to have his mother bail him out, which he thinks he is due because she doesnt love him! He takes risks with money and often its a rollercoaster being up and down, he doesnt save for rainy days.he spent a fortune of clothes and cars when he was making alot of money, however now he still earns an okay wage he is hand to mouth,and doesnt really know how to budget. he has been rescued by the women in his life, mainly his wives who are often higher earners then him, however the divorce costs him dearly. He loses money also in child support

identity
struggles to remember who he actually is, often projects who he would like to be, one of his fave sayings is "this is the type of woman i should have for when i become what i want", hence he goes for woman that in his fantasy life he is. his job doesnt help his identity as he spends all the time being someone else, when he stops working he doesnt always remember who he is.

Groups
needs to belong to a group he stands out in, he likes his army mates but doesnt feel as successful as them, so he latches on to other foreign groups to allow him to feel like he belongs and he is special. he joins the group thats outside his ethnic group so he can stand out, he learns everything about the culture so he can fit in but still stand out...because he cant in his other groups.

Emotions
he can use emotions to manipulate people, he shows part of his emotions (he crys at sad movies, and seeing children hurt on TV), however he supresses other heavier emotions unless you are very close to him. although he is aggressive in his job and his persuit of women, he cant deal with emotional conflict, classic passive aggressive. He will apologise for anything to resolve conflict, especially face to face conflict.

he doesnt like being by himself, he needs company, if its not physical it will be on the phone or online...doesnt have hobbies

all in all he is a walking conflict, he is completely moral and upright in his job, and completely amoral in his private life, manages to balance both together, whilst blaming others for his predicament.

Saying this, he is a charmer, he can contridict himself within the same conversation and not realise it. He still fails to see his financial situation, and will often shower a woman with gifts and meals until she is won over, even though he cant afford it. there is and always will be something endearing about the guy, he does the wounded soldier well.
i think once he reconciles he personality with all sides of him he will eventually be happy, however stepping out the fantasy will take time as it seems to affect every part of his life.He is a very good friend, but you wouldnt date him!

214red
14-01-2010, 02:45
The Sagi sun and Scorpio ascendant combination strikes me as a lucky guy, as per Sagittarius sun, but may be acting extremely pessimistic because he believes talking about it would drown out that same luck somehow. But his naturally lucky streak will out.

To have such a dark Rising sign makes one wonder what kind of things he'd have been through.

yes he is, however both sides dont last long, he can sounds like he is suicidal then be jumping for joy the next.

214red
14-01-2010, 02:55
I have to break it down further than that, and consider each aspect separately. I'm not good at synthesizing.

Moon square Venus suggests that what he needs from a woman emotionally and what he needs romantically are at odds. Moon in Leo suggests he needs praise, adoration, but also fun and playfulness. What he wants romantically is passion, depth, intensity, which is somewhat at odds with the flavor of Leo, but the potential for drama is there in both. The difference to me is light-hearted versus hot and heavy drama.i agree they are conflicted, so he always goes for someone that wont work in the end, and then blames them (the saturn rx influence also)

Moon square Mars suggests to me that he's got a firecracker temper. Hit a nerve, and he'll go off. Also, his need for emotional nurturing and security is at odds with his drive. He either risks too much or not enough.this is correct two, i did say earlier he is passive agressive, and he is, however when he is angry and its not face to face he can send you really nasty and vindictive communication, although face to face he can cry! he is a risk taker, but he doesnt think about what to take the risk on, he jumps in.

Venus conjunct Mars says he's quite passionate, and probably great in the sack. :D He's sexy as all get out, with both of them in Scorpio. With Venus the ruler of the 7th house, being in the 11th house and conjunct his Mars, he probably will want to marry someone who supports or is already involved with his causes, and will definitely want it to be a friend.
i agree with the passionate part, and he is very scorpio, he is quite magnetic.He will want someone that beleives in him, and what he stands for , thats patriotic, and dont insult the queen ever! i think he would like to marry someone that is a friend, but he hasnt managed that yet

214red
14-01-2010, 03:05
Your first statement about emotional and romantic needs are something that a woman would get immediately -- a great observation. See, you've taught me something valuable. That Mars/Scorpio square Moon/Leo is tricky to live with, I'm sure. Mars wants too much to control, to know how the partner values him. A sort of aggressive insecurity, almost. Constant affirmation. the bullying from his past, and his feeling his mother didnt love him means he needs constant reassurance from women that he is attractive, constant attention, as he feels he missed it when he was a kid, "if you loved me you would give me all your attention!" , will want to know where you are, all the time....but never ask him as he is 'on a job' i would say he is very much on the cusp of the cancer moon, and i can see him as being both.

When I look at Mars conjunct Venus I think of "personal poise", an attitude of confidence. The square to the Moon belies that somehow. Perhaps the praise has to be indirect or "coded" so as to assure but not condescend? This is a tough pattern to nail down all by itself.yes there is an attitude of confidence even if he isnt. i am not sure what you mean about the praise, he needs praise direct and effusive


So, let's put another short statement in place! "This person is passionate and emotional but sometimes has difficulty in understanding the responses of others or his/her own reasons for personal conduct in relationships." Ncefafn, you are free to concoct your own statements if you wish.
thats a good statement

214red
14-01-2010, 03:11
Yes, the Sun and Moon are in trine relationship. If seen in terms of phase angles, the Moon is in the "honest man" phase wherein the subject tries to be open and direct in how they handle the nature of their character. Being a role model would be important to one's dignity and work.i would agree he aspires to be a role model and wants to be the honest man, in work he works with dignity

HOWEVER, there is a fly in the ointment! Pluto. Pluto is at the mid-point of the Sun and Moon positions. As Ebertin notes in his Combination of Stellar Influences, "A soul torn by inner conflict, biased attitude or changed circumstances lead to critical phases of development in life or to separation from others." Not a comforting picture. And, over some 40 years, I've come to find that these interpretations can almost be taken literally. yes i agree with this, mostly its in my other post, he is torn by conflicts, mainly of who he is, and what he wants to be, and what he wants from someone else

Modern astrologers tend to link Pluto to Scorpio due to some of the characteristics attributed to that sign. This would represent a dark, sometimes morose or inner-focused person who is always trying to understand himself through the process of understanding others. This would fit with earlier statements about needing constant assurance. yes, it takes him longer because he needs to apply this to himself....and in reality not is fantasy

[/QUOTE]

214red
14-01-2010, 03:22
NCEFAFN=Not Cool Enough For A Funky Nickname. In reasonable circles, I am known as Kim. :)

Okay, so on with the astrology. At first, I didn't think there was any relationship between the Moon and Saturn, and then I did the math and noticed that there is a semi-square there. If squares are tension, I think of semi-squares as a burr in one's britches. It's just niggling irritation, suggesting there may have been some underlying, unspoken tension in the childhood home between the parents. yes, the classic british stiff upper lip, the unspoken issues that can be felt into the air

With the Moon and Saturn in the 8th and 7th houses, respectively, this niggling tension could well carry over into his romantic relationships, specifically, his long-term commitments. I read Saturn in the 7th as a fear of commitment and marriage. saturn is also Rx, so as i said earlier he sabatages himself by who he picks to marriage, although he wants commitment, it scares him at the same time, but he still wants to get married again because he is an optimist...he is looking for a woman to save him, when he find 'the one' he will be cured of cheating....so he will marry until he finds her.

've never had a really good grasp of the 8th house. I know it rules occult studies, other people's money, insurance, taxes, death, but I have difficulty incorporating those things into a reading. What I tend to fall back on is Zipporah Dobyns key number system, linking the 8th house with Scorpio. So I read the Moon in the 8th as needing deep connections. Perhaps he had an intense bond with his mother, picking up empathically on her emotions as a child. Any tension she felt , he would have felt too, which might thus discourage him from marrying.i think the 8th here is very much about other peoples money, he is supported still by his parents, as his inheritance. Also as other peoples money he gained and lost through marriage, and is currently on the losing side. i think he is punishing his mother for her lack of affection in childhood by making her support him

LovelyMissAries
26-01-2010, 23:28
I randomly clicked on this, and I LOVE the experiment you've got going here!

First off, Sag with Cancer moon is VERY sensitive to other people. I would think this person cries easily. They're also prone to being heavily intuitive. They know things about people before being told, but they're not so great at reading other people (well, with all the Sag in their chart they aren't, but I'm sure the Cancer moon helps them out quite a bit.) I know a couple people with some kind of Sag/Cancer combo in their chart and they always cry when someone else is hurt, but refuse to open up when they themselves are hurting. It's quite frustrating being around someone with those kind of mood swings for a Fire/Earth comob like myself!

I'd also say with the Sag/Lib combo, they probably find it hard to settle down but they're quite social and probably have many love affairs and friends. They're optimistic and a good judge of character, but very flighty. It's ironic because they're at their best when they work hard and are financially responsible. If they kept their mouths shut long enough, it would actually do them good according to their Jupiter in Capricorn! It's practically the opposite of their personality!

Mars in Scorpio, plus Mercury in Sag, PLUS Sun in Sag.... that's one hell of a temper for you, but also someone with an INSANE curiosity for the unknown, the mysterious, or the darker side of human nature. They love sex, plain and simple. I think this also causes them to plot their revenge more than most Sags, and when they strike, they probably strike at the perfect time too. I wonder if their Moon and Mars is conjunct/or trine? If this is the case, then they are VERY adept at reading people... nobody can bullshit them. They hate liars and insincerity. They're blunt and outspoken and people who are hard to read probably annoy them and make them restless. Selfish people lest heed to the Sag/Scorp wrath!

Saturn in Gemini... probably aspects their Venus in some way, thus their lesson is how to communicate in partnerships and create a stable kind of "nest" within their social life.

Neptune in Sag... I would say their expectations for love are idealistic thus they flit about from one relationship to another hoping to find that Rapunzel, or Snow White, or Prince Charming what have you. They need their space in relationships, definitely. And they always need someone to keep them guessing, which I think is the reason Sags flit about so frequently in the first place, for the chase and also to figure out a more complex puzzle if you will.



That's all I got, hopefully I was accurate in one of those paragraphs!

isthmus nekoi
27-01-2010, 01:07
Hm, hard to see from the little chart, but Scorpio ASC w/Sag planets in 1st, and dignified Mars conj dignified Venus (dignified = in their own sign), I would say something of a charmer. Does he have magnetic eyes?

Although moon is dignified in Cancer, I haven't found this to be a beneficial placement for men. It seems easier on women though. [ditto for sun in Cancer] Cancer moon in a man's chart generally heightens the impact of the man's mother. I'm reading mixed comments about the moon though; in the gif provided, it appears to be at mid Cancer. Is this correct?

Overall, I get the feeling that he has difficulty being responsible in general, not just relationships. There's not a lot of earth in there, nor fixed signs, save a more self serving Scorpio Mars. There's a lot of energy he exudes that may make him attractive but if his general attitude is one of entitlement which it sounds like, it will bring out the weaker expressions of the chart and tendency towards escapism.

214red
27-01-2010, 06:53
Hi isthmus & Starlight

I have posted information about the person on post number 45, which is page 5. you both were very good at describing parts of him, especially the crying at things, but not emotionally for himself.

Have a look at the details on page 5, if you want me to expand more i will.

I am hoping we have a guest chart each month for us to play with, and hopefully someone else can post one so i can join in!

Nik

PS yes he has magnetic colbalt blue eyes, and could charm the birds from the trees

isthmus nekoi
28-01-2010, 03:28
Thanks 214red, I had skimmed some of the posts before posting myself including yours although I guess I missed the part about him being charming. Venus conj Mars is generally a charismatic aspect, and I think the optimism of the 1st house Sag overlaid with the magnetism of Scorp ASC would be quite attractive. Scorp ASCs can have the most amazing eyes I find.

So, does this friend have a Cancer moon? If it's opposite Jupiter, that would suggest indulgence on the part of the mother and women and increase the sensitivity suggested by sun-Neptune.

214red
29-01-2010, 21:10
Thanks 214red, I had skimmed some of the posts before posting myself including yours although I guess I missed the part about him being charming. Venus conj Mars is generally a charismatic aspect, and I think the optimism of the 1st house Sag overlaid with the magnetism of Scorp ASC would be quite attractive. Scorp ASCs can have the most amazing eyes I find.

So, does this friend have a Cancer moon? If it's opposite Jupiter, that would suggest indulgence on the part of the mother and women and increase the sensitivity suggested by sun-Neptune.


yes he does, and he is indulged by women, and he expects it