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Professor X
18-01-2010, 03:56
Any other Triple Virgos on these boards other than myself?

My sun,moon and rising sign are all Virgo.

Sometimes being a triple can be very good but other times it can be a real pain. For thing I see too many details of things. That is good a lot of the time and a lot of times it isnt. It is good when it comes to working with things like the Tarot because I learn very quickly and accurately.

I also am very very ambivalent about things,especially when entering into romantic relationships. I cannot help this it is just how I am astrologically.
It seems that Virgos are just like that.

I am just too much of a Virgo. I just have to constanly study and take in information or else I get bored. Plus other aspects of Natal chart just intensify this aspect. When I notice the details of things I just HAVE to tell people about it.

I often wonder what other Triples in other signs go through being throughly infused with the traits of that sign.

I have also seen how some people dont think terms like Triple should apply when talking about stuff like this. However I disagree because of the effects of astrological combinations on everyones personality. For example a Triple Gemini would be the highest degree of duality and dual personalities of any sign or planetary combination.

214red
18-01-2010, 05:22
thats alot of virgo, i have my mars in virgo and i like it but i can imagine being triple virgo that must be tough. maybe your ambivalence towards things is the way virgo protects itself and intellectualises things.

do you find yourself very critical about things, and even yourself?

Professor X
18-01-2010, 06:33
thats alot of virgo, i have my mars in virgo and i like it but i can imagine being triple virgo that must be tough. maybe your ambivalence towards things is the way virgo protects itself and intellectualises things.

do you find yourself very critical about things, and even yourself?


Yes I do find my myself being very very critical of everything. I cant help but be that way because I see SO much. I am too much of a perfectionist. If I do something it has to be done to my exact specifications or else it just totally frustrates me. This has its good points but going through life like that can be very annoying.

Another point is that the sun and moon are cojunct together in Virgo. This only adds more to the situation.

Once I mentally master anything I tend to get very very bored. It seems like I am always mentally fussing over something. I also find myself getting locked in patterns of behaivor that I need to change but dont. When I form habits I really form habits.

Virgo in Mars is interesting. It means that you have great passion and energy devoted towards details and service. You are good at making plans and seeing them executed.

214red
18-01-2010, 06:39
yes i am a list person, i so an analytical job. mine is in the 5th house so even fun can be organised and structured!i get bored easily, and learn many hobbies and once mastered i dump them and move on

i cant do one thing at once, always multitask, and am a perfectionist. relationships are a nightmare also as i am overly critical

Professor X
20-01-2010, 03:55
What I hate most about being a Virgo is that I so damned critical of everything I see. I always seem to find something wrong the people around. Not to say that I am wrong about what I see but you generally should not notice that type of stuff about everyone you see.

Another things is I do thing better than 99% of the people around and I am not afraid to admit that fact. They just dont do things as well as I can do them. I think a lot of Virgos feel like that.

I dont try to criticize but I cant help but to notice all the stupid crap that these foolish people out here do.

dadsnook2000
20-01-2010, 04:46
Well, it is a hard cross to carry when one is a multiple Virgo --- sort of like the "Being an eagle in a hen coop" problem. It just teaches us to be highly, very highly tolerant of all those others around us who just don't match up to any standard we can imagine. Try to think of yourself as being a role model or a teacher for the progressiveness of humanity.

Moon, IC, Neptune, Sun in Virgo.

VenusRising
20-01-2010, 09:21
I have mars in virgo buts its in the 8th squared Uranus. i think it was my mars in virgo that made me lost my virginity so late in life at 21. i thought and reallty thought about it before i did it then my friend said 'girl you need to get rid of that already' LOL.

I am especially critical on myself, my mars in virgo makes me very body conscious.

214red
20-01-2010, 10:19
following what venus said, i remember my first kiss...i thought straight afterwards "well i dont think i like swapping soo many germs..." i have mars in virgo in the 5th!!

i still have to get over being soo critical to date, and thats just one planet in virgo

Kibeth
20-01-2010, 23:26
Let's not forget Virgo too has a thing for protecting, helping and caring for the underdogs, the weak. I'm Virgo Rising and my Cancer Sun amplifies this trait in all the wrong places. The sharp Virgo observation. The Cancer hypersensitivity. I'm driven to sense and reflect people's pain, sadness, anger, "need", whether I like it or not! It can be a little too much to handle.

Both signs give much and expect little in return. Both reserved. Both are worrywarts.

Virgo is my protective "shell". Oh, I still care and fuss over people in my Cancerian ways, albeit now that I've grown up I do in a rather unemotional and detached manner.

214red
21-01-2010, 00:16
interesting kibeth, i have a cancer sun so i understand an element of that, but it must be very hard to have virgo rising too, whats your moon?

Kibeth
21-01-2010, 00:49
Thankfully, Gemini =D

Professor X
21-01-2010, 02:22
Well, it is a hard cross to carry when one is a multiple Virgo --- sort of like the "Being an eagle in a hen coop" problem. It just teaches us to be highly, very highly tolerant of all those others around us who just don't match up to any standard we can imagine. Try to think of yourself as being a role model or a teacher for the progressiveness of humanity.

Moon, IC, Neptune, Sun in Virgo.

You have a LOT of Virgo as well. That is about as bad I am with it. You are right people are never going to live up to the standards that we have for them and life in general. I see that this is fact of life that Virgos must deal with. Virgos must deal with the fact that most of the populace will not be able to get things done like we can. It is the rare person on a job that gets things done better than a Virgo can.

My mind works like a computer. It just as efficient and just as fast as getting things done. I have had a hard time dealing with others whose minds dont work as fast as mine done. In fact I often wonder just HOW IN THE HELL do others get along in life having minds that work so slowly.

The abilites that Virgos have are a blessing and a curse as well. You have to learn how to handle all aspects of it all.

danny.mac85
21-01-2010, 02:39
My husband has a double Cancer, a Sun Cancer and a Rising Cancer. He is one of the most emotionally driven people I know..

Cheers,
Danielle******

le.jour.obscurcit
21-01-2010, 03:57
You have a LOT of Virgo as well. That is about as bad I am with it. You are right people are never going to live up to the standards that we have for them and life in general. I see that this is fact of life that Virgos must deal with. Virgos must deal with the fact that most of the populace will not be able to get things done like we can. It is the rare person on a job that gets things done better than a Virgo can.

My mind works like a computer. It just as efficient and just as fast as getting things done. I have had a hard time dealing with others whose minds dont work as fast as mine done. In fact I often wonder just HOW IN THE HELL do others get along in life having minds that work so slowly.

The abilites that Virgos have are a blessing and a curse as well. You have to learn how to handle all aspects of it all.


Lol okay. Just because you like things done a certain way, does not mean it's done better than somebody of a different sign.

I seriously cannot believe what I am reading. You do not know for a fact that people's minds work slower than your mind does. Their minds just work differently.

Lol.

214red
21-01-2010, 04:03
You have a LOT of Virgo as well. That is about as bad I am with it. You are right people are never going to live up to the standards that we have for them and life in general. I see that this is fact of life that Virgos must deal with. Virgos must deal with the fact that most of the populace will not be able to get things done like we can. It is the rare person on a job that gets things done better than a Virgo can.

My mind works like a computer. It just as efficient and just as fast as getting things done. I have had a hard time dealing with others whose minds dont work as fast as mine done. In fact I often wonder just HOW IN THE HELL do others get along in life having minds that work so slowly.

The abilites that Virgos have are a blessing and a curse as well. You have to learn how to handle all aspects of it all.
intellectually is one thing, emotional intelligence is another, how do you find that you handle emotions?

its quite funny, even when you type you type exactly as a virgo would (which i know you are) but it stands out soo much! minds work in very interesting and varied ways, a virgo might compute fast, however when it comes to thinking outside the box i dont think they are the leaders.

"I have had a hard time dealing with others whose minds dont work as fast as mine does" that smacks of issues accepting people who are different.

i would love to see a capricorn and a virgo in competition, you might be faster but capricorns are perfectionists too...

please dont take offense about what i am saying, i am curious which is all, after all i have a virgo mars...i need to understand what makes people tick

le.jour.obscurcit
21-01-2010, 04:04
What I hate most about being a Virgo is that I so damned critical of everything I see. I always seem to find something wrong the people around. Not to say that I am wrong about what I see but you generally should not notice that type of stuff about everyone you see.

What you may define as "wrong", could be defined as logical or practical by someone else.

Another things is I do thing better than 99% of the people around and I am not afraid to admit that fact. They just dont do things as well as I can do them. I think a lot of Virgos feel like that.

You (and other Virgoans [sorry, I'm not trying to group you all, but for the sake of example]) do things in your own way, which you believe is practical because it suits you. For a fire sign, doing things illogically and by impulse, seems practical to them because it works for them. You're not perfect because you think so.

I dont try to criticize but I cant help but to notice all the stupid crap that these foolish people out here do.

As I said previously: The "stupid crap" you see "these foolish people" do, is all about how you perceive it. This is a matter of subjective perception.

Just my opinion, as you have given yours; you are the most narcissistic Virgo I've ever come across.

214red
21-01-2010, 04:06
My husband has a double Cancer, a Sun Cancer and a Rising Cancer. He is one of the most emotionally driven people I know..

Cheers,
Danielle******
i only have sun cancer , i cant imagine being lead by my emotions as much as your husband, are they stable or up and down? I used to be up and down as an empath all the time, and that was hard but i have alot of earth in my chart to ground me .

do you find he is a daydreamer?

WolfyJames
21-01-2010, 04:28
I'm indeed triple something but not virgo, triple aquarius, with my sun, mercury and venus all in aquarius and all of them right next to each other. My moon is in gemini so that makes me quite "airy". I'm quite relieved to have virgo as a rising sign to ground me, he's the one who does the chores, organize things and makes all these lists we cannot live without.

le.jour.obscurcit
21-01-2010, 04:40
I have my Sun, Mercury, North node and ascendant all in Sagittarius, so this makes me fairly Sagittarius-ish to say that least. :P

I'm lost for words to say though. lol.

214red
21-01-2010, 05:24
i have leo and taurus in triplicate, nothing like the poor professor x

leo in mercury, venus, saturn

taurus moon, ASC, jupiter, chiron

so not as powerful as the triples here, am not sure i feel it as much as you guys. the taurus hits me a bit as its a bit stuck in the mud sometimes.

danny.mac85
21-01-2010, 07:00
i only have sun cancer , i cant imagine being lead by my emotions as much as your husband, are they stable or up and down? I used to be up and down as an empath all the time, and that was hard but i have alot of earth in my chart to ground me .

do you find he is a daydreamer?

Up and Down almost to an extreme. I am not too sure about the daydreaming though even though he is so emotional he doesn't actually talk so I have no Idea how he feels besides the stuff that gets let out in bursts. But what I do know is that he makes decissions based on how he feels at the moment instead of actually thinking about it, has got him into a lot of trouble. Does that make any sense? =)

Cheers,
Danielle*****

Professor X
21-01-2010, 08:14
intellectually is one thing, emotional intelligence is another, how do you find that you handle emotions?

its quite funny, even when you type you type exactly as a virgo would (which i know you are) but it stands out soo much! minds work in very interesting and varied ways, a virgo might compute fast, however when it comes to thinking outside the box i dont think they are the leaders.

"I have had a hard time dealing with others whose minds dont work as fast as mine does" that smacks of issues accepting people who are different.

i would love to see a capricorn and a virgo in competition, you might be faster but capricorns are perfectionists too...

please dont take offense about what i am saying, i am curious which is all, after all i have a virgo mars...i need to understand what makes people tick


Emotions tend to trip me up a little. Generally for me to get caught up on something it really has to catch my attention. Since I am heavily rooted in being a Earth sign my emotions tend to be consistent with people. I do go through my emotional ups and downs but I usually get right back in balance.
I usually manage to put my emotions and passions to good use to make progress for myself.

I do accept people who are different than me but I see I need to keep people at a distance until I see what type of person that they are. I have seen in the past that I have been burned by people who didnt really appreciate the things I can do. So I have learned to be more watchful and wary with people.

With a Virgo mars you would definitely be inquisitve to find out things about people. My Mars is in Gemini which only adds to my overall mental nature.

Professor X
21-01-2010, 08:25
What you may define as "wrong", could be defined as logical or practical by someone else.



You (and other Virgoans [sorry, I'm not trying to group you all, but for the sake of example]) do things in your own way, which you believe is practical because it suits you. For a fire sign, doing things illogically and by impulse, seems practical to them because it works for them. You're not perfect because you think so.



As I said previously: The "stupid crap" you see "these foolish people" do, is all about how you perceive it. This is a matter of subjective perception.

Just my opinion, as you have given yours; you are the most narcissistic Virgo I've ever come across.


I am not a narcissist. Im just saying the truth on how I function. Its not like I go out each day and rant at all the people I see who I dislike. I leave people alone. To each his own. But that also means that I have the right do my thing just like everyone else does.

I read and study things more than anyone that I know.
I learn things faster than anyone that I know. If I notice that and speak about it then I am telling the truth not being narcissistic.

Dont blame me. Its my birth chart thats responsible--Sun-Moon--Rising sign all Virgo with the sun and moon cojunct. Plus Mercury my ruling planet is in Libra cojunct to Pluto so my mind works REALLY fast.

I can only see and do things how I see them. I have a LOT of Virgo thus my behaivor reflects that. I can only be me.

Professor X
21-01-2010, 08:27
http://www.tarot.com/forum/topic.php?id=176&totalitems=162


Check out the above thread on Virgos from another web site.

le.jour.obscurcit
21-01-2010, 18:15
I am not a narcissist. Im just saying the truth on how I function. Its not like I go out each day and rant at all the people I see who I dislike. I leave people alone. To each his own. But that also means that I have the right do my thing just like everyone else does.

I understand that you are just explaining how you function, however I don't believe there is any need for you to regard people who think and act differently to what you do as "stupid" or "foolish".

I read and study things more than anyone that I know.
I learn things faster than anyone that I know. If I notice that and speak about it then I am telling the truth not being narcissistic.

Precisely. More than anybody YOU know. I'm a Sagittarian and I read and study and research moreso than the people I know, but I still keep in mind that there are other people out there that devote heaps more time studying/reading, etc. than what I do. And how do I even know they don't do that in their spare time? Or how do I know whether they have the time to do it or not?

You learn things faster than anybody YOU know. Again, this does not cancel out the people you do NOT know. I know an Aquarian and an Aries, with no tint of Virgo whatsoever, and they dominate the classroom when we're learning something new. Or anything at all for that matter.

As I said in my other post, this is a matter of subjective perception - not reality.

Dont blame me. Its my birth chart thats responsible--Sun-Moon--Rising sign all Virgo with the sun and moon cojunct. Plus Mercury my ruling planet is in Libra cojunct to Pluto so my mind works REALLY fast.

I have Mercury conjuncting my Ascendant, which is ruled by Jupiter in Libra conjuncting my Moon, which both trine my Venus in Aquarius which is conjunct Saturn squaring my Pluto which trines my Mars which is in opposition with both My Neptune and Capricorn that also square my Moon and Jupiter. Do you see me insulting other people because they do things differently to what I do?

I can only see and do things how I see them. I have a LOT of Virgo thus my behaivor reflects that. I can only be me.

My bestfriend has her Sun and Jupiter in Virgo, along with her Mars and Moon in the sixth house, and she doesn't speak so ill of people like you.

le.jour.obscurcit
21-01-2010, 18:16
http://www.tarot.com/forum/topic.php?id=176&totalitems=162


Check out the above thread on Virgos from another web site.

If there's anything that you would like me to look at specifically in that thread, how about you copy-paste it here? You shouldn't have any problem doing that, right?

Bernice
21-01-2010, 20:32
I realise that some people place a heavy reliance on interpreting a chart via the zodiac sign qualities, but a satillitum of chart factors in a particular sign does not necessarily mean a pre-ponderance of those qualities in the make-up of the person.

In fact it usually proves to lessen them, due to a planetary 'cancelling out' because it's the PLANETS and their aspects that are the major feature of a chart - you have to remember that the zodiac and houses aren't actually 'real', whereas the planets are.

As a quadruple Virgo I'm surprised that the Triple Virgos posting here are so adamant about being 'abusively critical', it's not a Virgo trademark.


Bee.

Kibeth
21-01-2010, 23:12
Of course, you'd need a natal chart to really define someone's personality. But we get at least 80% right with Sun-sign descriptions. Still, you're right, Sun signs alone do not make a person. Take this discussion at face value, yes? ;)

In fact I often wonder just HOW IN THE HELL do others get along in life having minds that work so slowly.
Your mind works fast because Virgo is ruled by Mercury. If Virgo finishes work last it isn't because you're slow. In fact, your mind runs very fast in its Mercurian nature, you're simply super-thorough. A perfectionist. Did I get it right? But don't forget "Gemini" is also ruled by the same planet. They too can appreciate being ruled by Mercury, and have minds of similar speed to yours, though of course they're different.


Virgo Asc.
Moon, Mercury and Venus in Gemini.

Minderwiz
22-01-2010, 00:10
I agree with Bee, it's the planets that are important. Signs modify the way in which planets express themselves but a modern fallacy is that a sign has the same sort of effect on all planets - it doesn't - as an example Libra may strengthen Venus and Saturn but it weakent the Sun and Mars. It's also a modern approach to place emphasis on steliums or sign counts, rather than planetary strengths/weaknesses (including house placements). Now in Virgo, the Moon is Peregrine (no dignity at all) and the Sun only has dignity by Face in the first 10 degrees, thereafter it too is Peregrine. Mercury in Libra does have dignity in a night birth, as Mercury rules the Air triplicity by night. Mercury also has dignity by Term in part of Virgo. Mercury might be quite strong in Libra but that is because of it's connection to the Air triplicy and not because of any Virgo link. An esssentially strong Mercury might well lead to a quick mind, IF there are no accidental debilities to weaken it (and without a complete chart that is impossible to say)

So, two or three placements do not give an adequate view of a chart However, I would point out that we are not predestined to do anything or to particular forms of behaviour or thinking because of our charts. The natal chart shows potentiality, whether that potential is achieved will depend on a person's experience of life. We cannot abdicate responsibility for our decisions, manners and actions by blaming the universe.

Cactus
22-01-2010, 00:20
Any other Triple Virgos on these boards other than myself?

My sun,moon and rising sign are all Virgo.



...I often wonder what other Triples in other signs go through being throughly infused with the traits of that sign....

For example a Triple Gemini would be the highest degree of duality and dual personalities of any sign or planetary combination.

Well, I guess I'm more than a triple Gemini. I have Sun, Mercury, Mars AND rising in Gem. And I'll tell you, I am definitely infused with Gemini. I'm an English major with impeccable spelling and grammar, can't stand when someone abuses the English language. I can speak in many languages without an American accent. I just have that "thing" for language.

I talk a lot, like to verbalize everything...all the traits of a Gemini. I can imitate actions and voices like you would not believe. I'm also sarcastic as heck and when angry, my words can cut deep. I can debate and seem like I've won, even if I don't know what I'm talking about. It's just crazy.

BUT. There are other strong influences in my chart that make me almost a different person. My Moon, aspecting almost all planets, is in Pisces. I have Neptune in Scorpio very strong in my chart (angular, aspecting almost all planets in a major way, esp. trine my Moon). And I have several planets in the 12th house, plus N. Node, Lilith and a few asteroids if you want to count them.

I think my Moon (watery planet) in Pisces (watery sign) trine Neptune (watery planet) in Scorpio (watery sign) gives me so much emotion and creativity, empathy to the extreme, and complete dreaminess and an imagination that can do absolutely anything. All of that plus Neptune and the 12th house make me extremely emotional, sensitive, artistic (I play piano, LOVE music and am inspired by beauty and must be surrounded by beautiful things and art). I cry at the drop of a hat and take on the suffering of the world. I can't watch the news...I've been extremely empathic all of my life.

I've learned to shield it and turn it off and my life has improved drastically. Soooo, the point is that while I feel my Gemini majorly, I also am infused with the emotional sensitivity of the Pisces/Neptune going on. Talk about duality, there it is!

So try to look at other elements and see where you embody those. I'm sure you are not completely a Virgo...Believe me, sometimes I focus so much on how I hate my Gemini traits (talk too much, bore everyone with my repetition) that I cry. Then I realize the reason I'm crying is because of my watery side. Then I remember my other non-Gemini traits and I feel better!

Professor X
22-01-2010, 02:36
I understand that you are just explaining how you function, however I don't believe there is any need for you to regard people who think and act differently to what you do as "stupid" or "foolish".



Precisely. More than anybody YOU know. I'm a Sagittarian and I read and study and research moreso than the people I know, but I still keep in mind that there are other people out there that devote heaps more time studying/reading, etc. than what I do. And how do I even know they don't do that in their spare time? Or how do I know whether they have the time to do it or not?

You learn things faster than anybody YOU know. Again, this does not cancel out the people you do NOT know. I know an Aquarian and an Aries, with no tint of Virgo whatsoever, and they dominate the classroom when we're learning something new. Or anything at all for that matter.

As I said in my other post, this is a matter of subjective perception - not reality.



I have Mercury conjuncting my Ascendant, which is ruled by Jupiter in Libra conjuncting my Moon, which both trine my Venus in Aquarius which is conjunct Saturn squaring my Pluto which trines my Mars which is in opposition with both My Neptune and Capricorn that also square my Moon and Jupiter. Do you see me insulting other people because they do things differently to what I do?



My bestfriend has her Sun and Jupiter in Virgo, along with her Mars and Moon in the sixth house, and she doesn't speak so ill of people like you.


Here we go once again with this stuff. I didnt insult anyone at all.
I never actually called anyone out by name I just gave some thoughts about how I felt about what I see in other people. This brings up another point I see about people when dealing with us Virgos......... YOU CANNOT HANDLE HOW REAL THAT WE ARE.

We say what we think most of the time. We generally do not mince words when we say thing. Me being a triple makes me act real as hell when I am around people.I dont put up fronts and fakery whether I am in real life or whether I am on the net. You are showing that you cannot handle my realness and upfrontness about things. Because that it all that it is. I AM REAL WITH MYSELF AND I ADMIT WHAT I THINK ABOUT THINGS.

A lot of the other zodialogical signs are into flattery and putting on a good show for people. THATS IS ESPECIALLY TRUE FOR SAGITTARIUS! Sagittarius is all about making sure people view them as being a certain way whether or not that way is real or not. Sagittarians will put on a good show and good image but whether that image is true or not will have to remain to be seen.

You are a true Sagittarian. My mother was one so I know what I am talking about. You dont like what I am saying merely because it doesnt fit your viewpoint of how you think the world should be. I suppose that is to be expected.

I am just not into flattering people. Just because I said I think a lot of things I see people do are foolish I am now being abusive towards people?? LOL!

People cannot handle it when you tell them the truth straight up. People want the flattery and all the pomp and circumstance. Well I am just not into all that stuff.

Then because I say I learn thing faster than anyone I know you accuse me of saying I learn faster than anyone on the planet. LOL. You must control your Sagittarian tendency to see everything turn out jovial and festive.

By the way I like Sagittarians. You guys are a blast to be around. You can have a LOT of fun with a Sagittarian.

Professor X
22-01-2010, 02:56
Well, I guess I'm more than a triple Gemini. I have Sun, Mercury, Mars AND rising in Gem. And I'll tell you, I am definitely infused with Gemini. I'm an English major with impeccable spelling and grammar, can't stand when someone abuses the English language. I can speak in many languages without an American accent. I just have that "thing" for language.

I talk a lot, like to verbalize everything...all the traits of a Gemini. I can imitate actions and voices like you would not believe. I'm also sarcastic as heck and when angry, my words can cut deep. I can debate and seem like I've won, even if I don't know what I'm talking about. It's just crazy.

BUT. There are other strong influences in my chart that make me almost a different person. My Moon, aspecting almost all planets, is in Pisces. I have Neptune in Scorpio very strong in my chart (angular, aspecting almost all planets in a major way, esp. trine my Moon). And I have several planets in the 12th house, plus N. Node, Lilith and a few asteroids if you want to count them.

I think my Moon (watery planet) in Pisces (watery sign) trine Neptune (watery planet) in Scorpio (watery sign) gives me so much emotion and creativity, empathy to the extreme, and complete dreaminess and an imagination that can do absolutely anything. All of that plus Neptune and the 12th house make me extremely emotional, sensitive, artistic (I play piano, LOVE music and am inspired by beauty and must be surrounded by beautiful things and art). I cry at the drop of a hat and take on the suffering of the world. I can't watch the news...I've been extremely empathic all of my life.

I've learned to shield it and turn it off and my life has improved drastically. Soooo, the point is that while I feel my Gemini majorly, I also am infused with the emotional sensitivity of the Pisces/Neptune going on. Talk about duality, there it is!

So try to look at other elements and see where you embody those. I'm sure you are not completely a Virgo...Believe me, sometimes I focus so much on how I hate my Gemini traits (talk too much, bore everyone with my repetition) that I cry. Then I realize the reason I'm crying is because of my watery side. Then I remember my other non-Gemini traits and I feel better!


Thanks for this post. Very well done. I love to learn new things about people.

You are correct I am not all Virgo.
My Mars is in Gemini so I have A LOT of Gemini in me as well. Because of Mars I have great mental dexterity and can use words to express myself very well when I need to.Gemini is also on my Midheaven so the effect is even greater.
Sometimes I find myself switching my personality on people when I get in a bad mood. I know that is just the Gemini that is in me. I use my hands a lot when I speak which is another Gemini trait.

Your Pisces Moon definitely makes you very very intuitive with deep feelings for people. Your 12th house influence is why you like things like the Tarot. That is the house of the Occult/Hidden side of life. I have a LOT of 12th house influence as well which is why I love ALL things occult.

Having a waterly nature is good for a woman. The crying acts as a valve to relieve all the excess emotional energy. The crying helps to keep you in balance otherwise you might have a energy overload. See if you generate emotional energy you must have a release point or else it can make you combust and you would lash out at people.

Minderwiz
22-01-2010, 05:01
Professor X, it might help the discussion if you posted your natal details, then we can make an assessment of just how Mercurial you are (or are not). As several posters have pointed out there's more to a chart than the Ascendant, Sun and Moon (though these are obviously important. The process might also enable you to get a better insight into the workings of Astrology.

le.jour.obscurcit
22-01-2010, 15:37
Here we go once again with this stuff. I didnt insult anyone at all.
I never actually called anyone out by name I just gave some thoughts about how I felt about what I see in other people. This brings up another point I see about people when dealing with us Virgos......... YOU CANNOT HANDLE HOW REAL THAT WE ARE.

I understand that you weren't insulting anybody in particular, but you were insulting people (in general) who perform tasks or think differently to what you do.

I've just said that my bestfriend is a Virgo.. If I couldn't handle how REAL Virgoans are, I don't believe I'd be friends with her. This has nothing to do with how REAL you are at all. You can be REAL without seeming to insult or appear narcissistic to others.

We say what we think most of the time. We generally do not mince words when we say thing. Me being a triple makes me act real as hell when I am around people.I dont put up fronts and fakery whether I am in real life or whether I am on the net. You are showing that you cannot handle my realness and upfrontness about things. Because that it all that it is. I AM REAL WITH MYSELF AND I ADMIT WHAT I THINK ABOUT THINGS.

Saying what we think is a trademark of a Sagittarian as well. We are quite well known to be blunt and untactful. I have my Sun and Mercury in Sagittarius! However, if I'm being blunt with somebody about what I think, I convey it in a way so that I'm not offending anybody.
I, personally don't put up with fake people either. Nor am I showing you that I cannot handle your realness or upfront-ness. I can't stand people that regard people as foolish or stupid all because they act or think differently, that's all. I, as a Sagittarian, have had to learn the hard lesson of becoming more tactful, and still slip-up at times. So don't tell me I can't handle you "upfrontness".

A lot of the other zodialogical signs are into flattery and putting on a good show for people. THATS IS ESPECIALLY TRUE FOR SAGITTARIUS! Sagittarius is all about making sure people view them as being a certain way whether or not that way is real or not. Sagittarians will put on a good show and good image but whether that image is true or not will have to remain to be seen.

I don't know where you got the idea of Sagittarians liking flattery. As a Sagittarian I dislike it immensely, and I've read else where that it's common for Sagittarians to be turned off by it, because they perceive it as "over-indulgent" on other person's behalf, which in turn becomes "over-bearing".

Sagittarians are not about making sure people view them as being a certain way at all. Sagittarians couldn't really care much for what people think of them, however, if people do give constructive criticism - that is NOT conveyed rudely - even if it is bluntly, they welcome it.

You are a true Sagittarian. My mother was one so I know what I am talking about. You dont like what I am saying merely because it doesnt fit your viewpoint of how you think the world should be. I suppose that is to be expected.

Thank you. :) I like letting people know that.
Even if you're mother was a Sagittarian, you still haven't experienced being Sagittarian firsthand. You don't know what they think or what they're intentions are and why they do what they do. You've perceived what your mother has done with your own opinion, etc.

If somebody does or says something really nasty to me, for no APPARENT reason at all, yes, I will be shocked and hurt, or even angry, however, I think about the reasons why they did what they did or said what they did. And if I can't figure it out, I ask them, so then (best case scenario) things can be cleared up between the two of us.

Understanding involves experiencing or discovering something externally and then objectively defining it, internally. You then gain something insightful.

You cannot understand something without experiencing or discovering how and why another person thinks and acts.

If you had of conveyed your opinion in a less narcissistic and "no one else is as good as me" way, I wouldn't have had a problem. Sagittarians are known for their open-mindedness. ;)

I am just not into flattering people. Just because I said I think a lot of things I see people do are foolish I am now being abusive towards people?? LOL!

All I'm trying to say, is perhaps what you perceive as foolish isn't foolish! Just because people act or think differently to yourself, does not mean you should consider them foolish. Do you understand that?

People cannot handle it when you tell them the truth straight up. People want the flattery and all the pomp and circumstance. Well I am just not into all that stuff.

I know that. I'm Sagittarian. Sagittarian's trademark is of BLUNTNESS and HONESTY.

Then because I say I learn thing faster than anyone I know you accuse me of saying I learn faster than anyone on the planet. LOL. You must control your Sagittarian tendency to see everything turn out jovial and festive.

No, I did not accuse you of saying that you claim to learn faster than anybody on the planet. I was merely suggesting to you that there are other people out there that you do NOT know of, that may learn faster than you - and are even a different sign!

I consider myself a fairly realistic person, but there is nothing at all wrong with hoping for things to turn out for the best. So don't tell me to control my tendency to see everything turn out jovial and festive.

By the way I like Sagittarians. You guys are a blast to be around. You can have a LOT of fun with a Sagittarian.

Thank you. :) I like Virgoans for their very close-attention to detail - they pick up on things we miss out on because we're too busy looking at the big picture!

Bernice
22-01-2010, 21:18
Professor X: ...You must control your Sagittarian tendency to see everything turn out jovial and festive.
The above quote highlights the now-popular idea that if a Planet 'rules' a Sign, both Sign & Planet are of the same nature. But they arn't.

Jupiter the planet, may indeed be expressed as joviality, depending on its contacts. But Sagittarius the zodiac Sign, as with the other zodiac signs, might best be regarded as an 'atmosphere'. It is because Jupiter finds it's most comfortable expression in the 'atmosphere' of Sagittarius it has therefore been deemed to be the 'ruling' planet for Sagittarius.

Similar (if not more) confusion and/or an overlap of meanings exist about the Houses. Basically the only two points that appear have a reliable validity are the Ascendant and the Mid-Heaven, the many House systems are constructed around them.

Regarding this topic of 'Triple Virgo', it might be more enlightening to consider Virgo as an 'atmosphere' which may or may not, allow a comfortable expression of any planet(s) which is located there. It goes without saying that assessment of the planetry *aspects* would be a primary consideration.



Bee :)

Minderwiz
22-01-2010, 23:13
I've long since been of the opinion that describing people by their Sun Signs is a dangerous and wrong headed approach. It's an approach that had an advantage of being a form of shorthand but it's become so widely accepted by people who have no other knowledge of Astrology, that it no longer fulfils that purpose. A symbol should evoke a complex situation but these symbols actually stop an Astrological exploration.

Even otherwise quite competent Astrologers will carry out an 'element' count to help assess personality. In effect this counts all planets as the same and the only important information is the triplicity of the sign. Yes, some may try and be a little more adventurous by adding extra weight for the Sun and/or Moon but essentially this approach treats Saturn and Jupiter, Venus and Mars, and of course Sun and Moon as being essentially the same. Any competent Astrologers of the past knew very well that they were essentially different!

In modern parlance, I'm a Libra (Sun 29,45, and if you insist Neptune 11,15) but I might be a Scorpio (Mercury 21,15; Venus 13,01; Jupiter 29,59 and if you insist Chiron 11,55). I might alternatively be Leo (ASC 23,27; Mars 12,40; Saturn 21,07 aand again if you insist Pluto 14,49). And there's always Aquarius (Moon 17,21) Gemini (Uranus 25,58) and Taurus (MC 9,18)

If you think about it, that information tells you virtually nothing of real meaning till you start looking at house placements, aspects and dispositorships. A traditional Astrologer would also look at essential dignities and accidental dignities (such as being retrograde, fast or slow, angularity, aspects from benefics and malefics and relationship to the Sun).

Assessing character or temperament involves using a complex of factors, whether you use a more modern or a traditional approch. You don't need to look any further than Dave (Dadsnook2000) for a first class way to analyse natal charts using modern methods. I hope that I'm a not incomptent example of how to use traditional methods - neither of us emphasises a Sun sign approach or even a sign approach in the way that crops up so often here.

Sun signs have become a quick fix - but they are not a good approach for someone who wants to learn about Astrology - let go of them and start to look at planets' placement in the charts and use the signs to modify how those planets will express their roles in a chart.

dadsnook2000
23-01-2010, 09:16
Since I indicated that this was a PRIVATE message, I'm sure that nobody else will read it. Like you, I am wondering why some of those who claim to be interested in astrology and those early-studies student who are putting time and effort into learning astrology don't follow our lead and stop making such a big deal out of sun signs and lots of fringe-stuff like black moons, etc. Don't they see that the basic stuff we use, although we each use it differently than the other, is what works.

Astrology is in many ways very simple. But simple doesn't equate to taking the simple way out by detouring around the learning curve. Some portions of our craft do require serious effort --- for many, that is understanding the math and the celestial mechanics that must be understood before one can go too far and too deep. But, the wealth of methodologies beyond and besides the natal charts such as mid-points, progressions, directions, solar and lunar returns, phase relationships and others all need a basic grounding in planets, aspects, houses, cycles and (lastly, perhaps) signs. Then, they can (like us) specialize in modern, psychological, classical, medieval, hellenistic approaches to astrology or go into special applications such as prediction, horary, medical, gardening, herbal, weather, etc.

If only they realized the scope of what they could explore if they first took the time to really learn the basics. Dave

ncefafn
23-01-2010, 12:30
I didn't read what Dave posted, since he asked us nicely not to read it, but I did read Minderwiz's post before that. Being an enthusiastic amateur astrologer, I have to confess that what got me interested in astrology was not that my Sun sign described me so well, but rather that it described me so ill. In the first astrology book I ever got my hands on, a year forecast for Libras when I was 10, I found out that there were other planets and positions that had a bearing on personality, and so I went in search of them. It was hard in those days finding ephemerides in public libraries, and it wasn't until I was in junior high (that shows how old I am now) that I found a bookstore that sold Grant Lewi's Astrology for the Millions and then found out where all my other planets were. I devoured everything I could get my hands on, looking for information about, of course, myself.

What I came away with was the assurance that I was no more "A Libra" than I was "A Blonde." I am a complex assortment of signs, planets and angles. And quite honestly, when I look at a chart, the first thing I search for are the hard aspects, not the signs.

Hi, my name is Kim. I'm a fixed t-square.

dadsnook2000
23-01-2010, 13:03
My post to Minderwiz was my way of teasing the list participants. It was my thought that the "private" bit in the title would assure that everyone read it. It may have been a touch heavy-handed but it seemed to be a nice way of saying "follow what works." Just a nudge to those who are infatuated with Sun signs to move onwards towards what astrology really is. Dave

le.jour.obscurcit
23-01-2010, 13:18
My post to Minderwiz was my way of teasing the list participants. It was my thought that the "private" bit in the title would assure that everyone read it. It may have been a touch heavy-handed but it seemed to be a nice way of saying "follow what works." Just a nudge to those who are infatuated with Sun signs to move onwards towards what astrology really is. Dave

I read your post and did not realise what you were talking about when you said "since I indicated this was a PRIVATE message.." until I'd finished reading your post and looked up and down the page several times, trying to see what you were talking about.

I agree with Bernice's, Minderwiz's, and your post. And when reading Professor X's post, I indeed felt like saying "why are you only judging me by my Sun sign?" but felt it futile, as this character knows what they're talking about.

I also admit, that when initially interested in Astrology, I only pursued the meanings of the Sun signs, but THEN found out about the Moon signs, Venus signs, etc. and then about the houses, aspects and other points like the Nodes and the Black Moon. This was when my SEVERE interest in astrology occured, and you could say this interest became an obsession. Although I do not possess as much knowledge as I would like to and compared to you and the other people on this forum, I believe I do share the same amount of passion for the art. And it is users like you, that I look up to, gain inspiration from and learn from.

Kibeth
23-01-2010, 18:47
Sun signs do create the most lively discussions. You see, not everyone believes in astrology and many of the populace think it superstitious, and competent astrologers are the biggest disclaimers of Sun signs out there. What you must get, however, is that "Sun signs" is simply a lubricant for conversation. You could start a Sun sign chit-chat anywhere, on the metro, a taxi stand, a cafe, and with anyone who knows "mainstream" astrology (basically 99% of the population), start a joke about that uptight Virgo employee at level 25.

Of course the intelligent ones here already know more makes a person than simply his or her Sun sign and that the human personality is a complex thing requiring a natal chart to dissect. But, as I've said, Sun signs is a lubricant for conversation. We do (or rather I do) revere astrological knowledge, honest!

Minderwiz
23-01-2010, 22:28
I think the point we are trying to make is that if you are going to get anywhere with Astrology you need to lay aside the Sun sign approach and indeed the view that a stelium of planets in a particular sign emphasises the characteristics of that sign. It does not - what it does do is modify in various, and probably quite different ways the way in which the planets manifest their essential natures. Indeed Signs have no characteristics in this sense!!! If you are ice skating across a frozen lake and the ice begins to melt you will find it difficult to make progress but the character of the ice is only important for its affect on the skates. In relation to a boat trying to cross the same lake the melting ice has quite a different effect on progress. Same ice but different modes of transport. Saturn does well in Libra but the Sun does not - same sign but different planets.

Dave mentions the various techniques which actually make Astrology worthwhile - if all we did was study natal charts then it would not have the wonder and brilliance that it actually does have. One thing that I find quite amazing is the obscession with the secondary motion of the planets (their progress through the signs) which is coupled with a major ignorance of their primary motion - their dirunal cycle of rising, culminating, setting and anticulminating. It was this primary motion that gave rise to Astrology in the first place, and it is still the most important motion. Now that is not to say that secondary motion is irrelevant - it is and it is important but it is not the be all and end all.

I agree with Bernice's, Minderwiz's, and your post. And when reading Professor X's post, I indeed felt like saying "why are you only judging me by my Sun sign?" but felt it futile, as this character knows what they're talking about.

Your comments were good and appropriate, any error in your judgement lies in the last phrase. There is nothing wrong with challenging anyone to explain or justify their views providing you do it courteously (which you did) - it's one of the main ways we learn by reacting to others views. I think Bee, Dave and myself simply felt that the focus on 'triple virgo' or 'triple anything' represents only an early step in the development of Astrological understanding and we were trying to push the discussion in a more productive direction for those wishing to go beyond a bare knowledge of Sun signs. We all have to start from somewhere, and usually the Sun sign column is that starting point.

As Kibeth points out the Sun sign approach has become the most popularly known approach and can start many interesting discussions. Most people know the eight notes of the musical scale but if we simply discussed Beethoven's Ninth in terms of those eight notes we would be unable to discuss our emotional reactions to the music (either favourable or unfavourable), The analogy is not perfect, analogies rarely are but I hope it helps make the point that the beauty of Astrology requires some more steps.

I think one of the main functions of this part of the forum is to make people aware of what Astrology has to offer. Most of the people who come here are aware of their Sun signs and little more BUT they DO want to know more and develop their understanding - if not to the level of practicing Astrologers, at least to have a good knowledge of what Astrology is about and can do. I think all the regular contributors show that wish to learn more.

It is difficult to put aside the Sun Sign vocabulary, especially when it is the only one that you have. I'm often reminded of the statement used by Stephen Arroyo -

planets are the actors....the signs are the roles ...and the houses are the places where the actors perform

I think he perhaps overemphasises the signs here but the meaning is clear - it's the planets that are the most important.

Professor X
24-01-2010, 06:04
Professor X, it might help the discussion if you posted your natal details, then we can make an assessment of just how Mercurial you are (or are not). As several posters have pointed out there's more to a chart than the Ascendant, Sun and Moon (though these are obviously important. The process might also enable you to get a better insight into the workings of Astrology.

Will do. I will post some aspects of my chart when I get a chance.
I dont happen to have it with me now.

ncefafn
24-01-2010, 11:17
Why not give us your data, as Minderwiz suggested?

Professor X
25-01-2010, 03:18
Why not give us your data, as Minderwiz suggested?

You mean my actual birth time and birthplace info?

ncefafn
25-01-2010, 03:20
You mean my actual birth time and birthplace info?

Why not?

Professor X
25-01-2010, 04:14
*info removed*

Minderwiz
26-01-2010, 01:55
Thanks, I'll get back to you shortly

Professor X
26-01-2010, 03:34
Thanks, I'll get back to you shortly

Okay. I guess I can take the info down now.

Minderwiz
26-01-2010, 05:16
As I follow a traditional approach, I won't be referring to the two outer planets, Uranus and Neptune, nor to the dwarf planet, Pluto. Of course others may wish to comment on those placements and I'll give the positions of them if anyone is interested.

A brief description of the chart, first, so that readers can get a 'picture'. As we know the Ascendant is in Virgo at just over 21 degrees. The Sun is at 12 degrees and The Moon at nearly 8 degrees. So neither luminary is conjunct the Ascendant and both lie in the twelfth House. The Moon is in the very last stage of its fourth quarter and approaching the New Moon. Neither luminary has much essential dignity, the Moon is peregrine (no dignity) and the Sun only has a mutual reception by triplicity with Venus (also in the twelfth but in Leo). I'm never sure about the practice of some classical Astrologers of using mutual reception to boost 'weak' planets. Both the Sun and Venus (28 degrees Leo) would be peregrine if it were not for the Sun ruling the Fire triplicity by day and Venus ruling the Earth triplicity by Day (this is a Day birth with the Sun above the horizon). I think it's best to conclude that neither Sun, Moon or Venus have any real essential dignity.

Mercury is at nearer to 8 degrees Libra than 7 degrees. Mercury too is peregrine but it is placed in the first House (though not of the same sign as the Ascendant).

Mars is at 12 degrees Gemini (and hence square to the Sun and Moon). Again it's essential dignity is not great, it has dignity being in its own 'Face' (decan) and has mutual reception by Terms with Jupiter. Mars is in the ninth House, just under 8 degrees from the MC.

Jupiter is at 24 degrees Aries, in the eighth House. Jupiter's only essential dignity comes from its mutual reception with Mars, otherwise it would be peregrine. Saturn is at just under 29 degrees of Cancer in the eleventh. Saturn is in detriment in Cancer. The North Node is at 25 degrees Scorpio.

In terms of accidental dignity Sun, Moon and Venus are not well placed in the twelfth, nor is Venus in the eighth. Mercury gains dignity in the first. Venus and Jupiter are retrograde, all the others are direct. The Sun and Moon are aflicted by the malific, Mars but of these only the square to the Sun is partile. The Moon is combust.

Looking at Mercury in particular, it is swift in motion and is in the vespertine stage (occidental or setting after the Sun). It is nearing it's greatest elongation from the Sun when it will begin to slow down and move towards its Station Retrograde.There's some debate as to how if at all Mercury's phase relationship exhibits strength or weakness. Lilly would treat this position as adding some strength, whereas others treat it as a debility. Either way it's unlikely to affect the chart much but interestingly Rudhyar sees this Mercury as a factor tending to conservative and deliberate thought processes (what a traditional Astrologer would characterise as Melancholic). Mercury is by nature changeable but there are traditional Astrologers who would also see occidental Mercury as adding an element of melancholy, whereas oriental Mercury is Sanguine (more Airey).

Clearly other factors need to be taken into account before a final judgement can be made.

OK, that's the description of the Chart, the next step is to assess temperament.

ncefafn
26-01-2010, 05:26
If you take Neptune into consideration, there is a kickass t-square in this chart between Mars, the Sun/Moon combo, and Neptune.

Minderwiz
26-01-2010, 06:04
There are a number of approaches to Temperament assessment, I'll mention just two here. The first is one outlined by Dorian Greenbaum, in her book, 'Temperament, Astrology's Forgotten Key'.

This measure uses the Ascendant (by Sign element), Ascendant Ruler and the Ascendant Almuten both by their intrinsic natures. The Ascendant Almuten is the planet with the most essential dignity at the Ascendant degree. In this case the Ascendant is Virgo, which is an Earth sign and therefore Melancholic. As noted above Mercury, the ruler of the Ascendant, is also Melancholic when occidental. The Almuten of the Ascendant is also Mercury, as it is also exalted in Virgo. So all three Ascendant measures are Melancholic.

The next group of factors contributing to Temperament are related to the Moon. The first factor here is the Moon's sign, which we know is Melancholic. The sign of the Moon's ruler (Mercury) which is Libra and therefore Sanguine. Finally the Moon's phase is considered. The Moon is in it's fourth quarter which is phlegmatic.

The last factor relates to the Sun and Looks at it's 'seasonal' nature. Virgo is a Summer sign and Summer being hot is Choleric.

From Greenbaum's approach Professor X is mainly melancholic. A deliberate thinker with occasional flashes of inspiration with something of a dry wit. A good analyst and someone who succeeds by sheer effort. The downside is an excess of pessimism, which can show up as being sarcastic. Whilst not particularly ambitious, melancholics can enjoy being the power behind the throne. There's also an appreciation of hierarchy and order, though rather unfairly (to them) they are often near the bottom. They don't like people who jump to conclusions or superficiality. It's very much a think before you act and weigh the evidence.

An alternative approach to Temperament is put forward by by Oscar Hofman in his book on Classical Medicine. Hofman bases his method on a simplified version of Lilly. He takes the Ascendant in a similar way to Greenbaum (so that's melancholy again) He uses the Moon phase (phlegmatic) and season of birth (Choleric). Of these he gives more weight to the Ascendant by including the intrinsic nature of it's ruler (Mercury is Melancholic when occidental). He adds an additional factor not mentioned by Greenbaum, the Lord of the Geniture. This is basically the planet with the most dignity in the chart (both essential and accidental combined). I'd take this to be Mars, as it's got reasonable essential dignity and it's positioned in the ninth which is also favourable and is not too far from the MC. This would add an additional Choleric factor as Mars is definitely firey hot! The only other contender is Mercury in the first but it's score is lower. If Mercury was preferred we would have the same overall Melancholic temperament as Greenbaum.

If we go by Hofman we have a Melancholic/Choleric temperament. This would be similar to that on Greenbaum's scale, except that there is more fire - this person does not suffer fools gladly, has more fire and ambition and relies on fact and logic to 'win' arguments. Ambition to succeed depends on having a plan and the melancholic/choleric will have a plan.

I'll leave Professor X to comment on which if either he thinks is appropriate and readers to judge which if either matches their view of the character expressed through the posts.

The next step will be to look at 'Manners' - this is a wider field than our modern view of manners as simply how well people behave (though that element is still in the traditional stance). We are looking at the whole way that the person reacts with the outside world, starting with the way that they think.

Professor X
26-01-2010, 06:24
If you take Neptune into consideration, there is a kickass t-square in this chart between Mars, the Sun/Moon combo, and Neptune.

Explain more on this please ncefafn.

I am reading what Minderwarz has put up so far I am impressed.
His approach is different from the approach I learned to do my own chart.
I will post my final thoughts on it all once he is done.

Note: I thought that if the Sun/Moon were within six degrees they were cojunct to each other?

ncefafn
26-01-2010, 07:11
It's pretty complex for me -- I'm just an amateur. I'd like everything I say to be vetted by Minderwiz and Dadsnook (Dave).

Mars oppose Neptune itself is a difficult aspect. Mars is direct and forceful, it wants to act and act now. Neptune diffuses everything, so when the fiery nature of Mars hits Neptune's water, all you get is steam. Your drive seems to dissipate at the most inopportune moments. It's like being on the freeway, going 70 mph, and running out of gas.

Mars squaring your Sun and Moon gives you a hot temper, one that comes in fits and bursts. It indicates a certain degree of irritability and, as Minderwiz says, gives a temperament that doesn't suffer fools gladly.

The Sun and Moon, along with the Ascendant, are the prime indicators -- as I understand it -- of personality. They are how you express yourself. With Neptune squaring them, your ability to get yourself across to others clearly is negatively impacted. People don't see you clearly, or don't see you in the same light that you view yourself.

These are just my ramblings, and as I said, I'm just an amateur. Thank you for sharing your chart details with us.

lilangel09
26-01-2010, 07:59
Note: I thought that if the Sun/Moon were within six degrees they were cojunct to each other?

I'm guessing that Minderwiz drew up the chart on software or drew it by hand and chose to use tighter orbs. Some people let the Sun and Moon have looser orbs (for example, you said 6). If you draw up the chart on astro.com or online, these settings would be configured automatically, which is why on some sites/programs, your Sun and Moon are conjunct. Minderwiz probably chose to only use 5 orbs or less to consider planets as conjunct.

dadsnook2000
26-01-2010, 08:34
Orbs aren't magical nor are they exactly defined.
The easiest way to think about orbs involves two considerations, in my view:

FIRST. Consider the aspect. A CONJUNCTION can have a big orb, especially if it is the Sun, Moon, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn. Perhaps 12 degrees, although some would be comfortable with 8 degrees. An OPPOSITION divides the zodiac circle by two, so perhaps half of the conjunction orb---perhaps 6 degrees. TRINES divide the circle by three, so 12 divided by 3 equals an orb of 4 degrees. Using this approach, SQUARES would have 3 degrees, SEXTILES 2 degrees and everything else 1 degree. Of course, anyone is free to use what they choose.

SECOND. Consider that planets approach, contact and then leave an exact classical aspect. so the planet is likely to show some effect several degrees away from being exact, increasing in its effect as it nears exact contact, then losing its effect as it separates from an exact aspect. There is no rigid cut-off point.

We won't get into all of the "other stuff" that capable astrologers throw into the mix of how they judge an aspect, as it all depends upon the fine points they choose to use in their interpretive work. Again, no rigid rules. Dave

Professor X
26-01-2010, 10:28
Mars squaring your Sun and Moon gives you a hot temper, one that comes in fits and bursts. It indicates a certain degree of irritability and, as Minderwiz says, gives a temperament that doesn't suffer fools gladly.




I can tell you one thing I am starting to agree with Minderwiz. I think that the real ruler of my chart is Mars. Simply because I am a triple Virgo Mercury will always have a effect on me but I think Mars is the most powerful planet in my chart.

I most certainly do have a very very hot temper than can explode when certain things happem. Thankfully those explosions rarely happen to me. Mars in Gemini also has a effect on my personality that I am just now realizing.
Since Gemini is on the midheaven it has affect on my overall personality.
Plus since it is square the Moon and Sun that just increases the energy. Mars in the Airy mental sign Gemini sometimes leaves me prone to personality shifts that constanly happen. This usually happens when I get angry at something of course.

I want to see the rest of what Minderwiz has to say.

Minderwiz
26-01-2010, 19:16
Explain more on this please ncefafn.

Note: I thought that if the Sun/Moon were within six degrees they were cojunct to each other?

They are - What I actually said was that neither luminary was conjunct the Ascendant, (which would have changed matters a little), not that they were not in conjunction with each other.

Astrologers used to ascribe orbs to planets, rather than aspects and the Sun and Moon have the largest orbs or moeities, as they appear the largest planets. Lilly used a separation of around 15 degrees for the Sun and Moon to enter and leave aspect, so the Sun and Moon in Professor X's chart are well within that range. As the Moon is less than 8 degrees from the Sun it is combust.

Kibeth
26-01-2010, 23:18
It's pretty complex for me -- I'm just an amateur. I'd like everything I say to be vetted by Minderwiz and Dadsnook (Dave).

Mars oppose Neptune itself is a difficult aspect. Mars is direct and forceful, it wants to act and act now. Neptune diffuses everything, so when the fiery nature of Mars hits Neptune's water, all you get is steam. Your drive seems to dissipate at the most inopportune moments. It's like being on the freeway, going 70 mph, and running out of gas.

Mars squaring your Sun and Moon gives you a hot temper, one that comes in fits and bursts. It indicates a certain degree of irritability and, as Minderwiz says, gives a temperament that doesn't suffer fools gladly.

The Sun and Moon, along with the Ascendant, are the prime indicators -- as I understand it -- of personality. They are how you express yourself. With Neptune squaring them, your ability to get yourself across to others clearly is negatively impacted. People don't see you clearly, or don't see you in the same light that you view yourself.

These are just my ramblings, and as I said, I'm just an amateur. Thank you for sharing your chart details with us.

Amateur here too. Unfortunately, I've missed seeing the natal details and all I've got are Minderwiz's/ncefan's descriptions. Hard ter visualize.

Like Professor X, I also have my Mars squaring Moon(and Saturn for that matter), mine own T-square makes me cry. It can't be easy holding that natural temper in check, I understand. So, you don't see me railing at this guy as people here have done. Won't post my chart though as this is about him. =)

Minderwiz
26-01-2010, 23:41
The next stage in the traditional chart interpretation would be a consideration of the soul or manners. This is something akin to what today we would call 'personality'. The two key areas are the rational, logical mind and ability to communicate and the sensitive or irrational part of the mind.

The first step is to identify the Significator of Manners, according to Lilly we look first for planets in the first House. In the case of Professor X, we find Mercury there, so Mercury becomes our primary significator of manners. We would also consider the planets with dignity in the place of the Significator of manners (ruler and Almuten) and any planets aspecting the significator.

Following our assessment of the significator of manners we would go on to examine Mercury (the rational mind) to assess 'wit and 'understanding' and also to examine the Moon, and its relationship to Mercury, in order to assess the balance between the rational and intuitive side of personality.

So, starting with the Significator of Manners. As we have seen Mercury is weak in essential dignity but does have a strong placement in the first, is swift in motion and is occidental, both of which add more to the overall strength. Mercury on balance has positive strength but not a lot of strength. So a real capability to learn, studious, guileful and divining well but may be a bit inconsistent and, if pushed may be a little malicious.

The balance between rational and irrational mind is given by the balance of strength between Mercury and the Moon (this is true for everyone, whatever their significator of manners). Both planets are peregrine but the Moon is low in accidental dignities, being in the twelfth, combust and squared by Mars. So the rational logical mind predominates and will usually master the passions but possibly at the cost of mistrusting the 'lunar dimension' of life, either in oneself or in others. Indeed others may be seen as too dominated by their emotions or unable to think in a straight and capable way.

Mercury is swift in motion which Lilly characterises as rendering 'inconstant men but quick of apprehension, oft changing their opinions but yet will give good reason for their opinions'.

Mercury occidental gives a 'dissembler' - someone prone to be destructive of others ideas though the extent of this would be modified by Mercury's ruler - which is Venus. That might mute the tendency but as Venus is also weak and retrograde that muting might not be as gracious as we might expect.

Mercury in an air sign gives a witty nature and possibly good at languages. Mercury in the Ascendant a good capacity and wit for employment!

On the less positive side, signs of a weak mind would be Mercury peregrine and the fact that Mercury makes no contact with the Moon.

Mercury is ruled by Venus, and also Saturn and Venus are the two planets with the most dignity at Mercury's location. We need to recognise that neither of these two will add much strength to Mercury. Venus is Retrograde and in the twelfth, Saturn is in detriment, though better placed in the eleventh. Neither of these two aspects Mercury and Mercury does not aspect any other planet. This might well weaken Mercury by making it more difficult to express well.

Lilly says that when well placed or well dignified, Mercury signifies a man of subtle and political brain, intellect and cognition; an excellent disputant, logician...eloquent in speech, sharp and witty..learning almost anything without a teacher'. Very similar to Professor X's remarks at the outset.

Lilly goes on to say that when ill dignified or ill placed, Mercury signifies a troublesome wit, a kind of phrenetick man, his tongue and pen against everyman and spending his time trying nice conclusions to no purpose.

Here we have Mercury ill dignified but well placed so neither of these extremes are going to hold true.

So we have a person who has a melancholic/choleric temperament with probably above average intelligence but may be inconsistent, doesn't care much for people who express themselves in an emotional way and may be viewed by others in turn as a bit of a dissembler, rather than a constructive force.

That concludes the 'general' side of chart interpretation. The traditional chart analysis would now procede to examine the chart on a house by house basis to examine all aspects of the native's life and future. I don't have time to do that unless I'm offered and exhorbitant fee LOL.

Professor X
27-01-2010, 02:30
Amateur here too. Unfortunately, I've missed seeing the natal details and all I've got are Minderwiz's/ncefan's descriptions. Hard ter visualize.

Like Professor X, I also have my Mars squaring Moon(and Saturn for that matter), mine own T-square makes me cry. It can't be easy holding that natural temper in check, I understand. So, you don't see me railing at this guy as people here have done. Won't post my chart though as this is about him. =)

If your interested in my natal details I can give them to you.

Professor X
27-01-2010, 02:57
Minderwiz I would like to give you a big thanks.

I really appreciate what you have done. I like your approach to how you approached it all. Very very scientific,well done. You didnt try to make any judgements towards me you simply gave your obvservations on what you saw in my chart.

I will say this you are pretty much dead on correct. It is only one or two remarks you made that I would call wrong. But that is to be expected since no interpretation will be 100% correct.

YOU CERTAINLY GOT MY TEMPERAMENT CORRECT.
Many many times on jobs I have had to tell people off and leave the job because of shit they have said to me that made me angry. I do NOT tolerate others leaning on me very well in situations like that. I will do what I am told at a job but people had better not try to lean on me about anything.

From what you have said I see that Mars is real ruler of my chart. Since I am a Triple Virgo Mercury will always have a influence on me but it is not even close to being my ruler. Then the fact that Mars is square to the Moon and the Sun would account for how harshly I see things around me. Like I was telling some of the other people earlier in the thread I AM JUST BEING MYSELF.

The thing that balances myself out is that I am a Triple Virgo thus I tend to be very very introverted. So the Mars aspects of my chart tend to stay in control and do not run rampant. But when Mars gets let loose then thats when things can happen. Plus even if my Mars is not physically let loose it is always there on the mental side of things and Im always thinking things.
I also have great physical energy to do things as well.

Because Mars is in the mental sign Gemini I can have personality shifts that can come out of nowhere. However I have learned to deal with this aspect of myself. I keep my outward behaivor very consistent despite the effects of Gemini.

When I do get angry it tends to come out in a big rush of energy at the other person. I can certainly hold my own when I get into a arguement or a fight against someone when it happens.

214red
27-01-2010, 03:23
perhaps now professor X you can use the knowledge from Minderwiz to look at the aspects in your chart that perhaps you can modify and work on, especially you anger that might hinder you in certain aspects of your lifeyou might be able to learn to be more tolarent to what you see as others faults, and the leaning on you...managing your personality in the workplace is something i found hard, but to gain promotion i had to become a bit calmer at work.

one of the joys of astrology is being able to see why you do things, and see yourself from a different point of view.

Minderwiz
27-01-2010, 04:28
Thanks Professor X. Please remember that what you have there is a thumbnail approach, even from a traditional standpoint. So clearly there are areas that could be refined or modified, I've only done rough and ready statements in some places, what I wanted to do is to give you a flavour of what Astrology can offer,

If you had consulted a traditional Astrologer he/she would have gone on to give you information about your assets over your life time (second house) your family (third and fourth houses) your children, either present or future (fifth house), your health (first and sixth houses), your marriage prospects, including the number of wives (seventh house), your likely success in public life (tenth), your education and travel prospects (third and ninth) but perhaps more important, some idea of timing of changes and events, using primary directions, solar returns and transits.

A modern Astrologer might well take a different approach but is still really concerned with most if not all the above issues.

I'd like to thank you for posting your details and allowing people to follow the thread. For them I'd point out that I've not really referred to aspects much (accept for the Sun/Moon conjunction and the squares from Mars) - aspects contribute but they are modifiers, rather than introducing new information. For the same reason I've not really referred to aspect patterns. I know a lot of Astrologers make a lot out of them. I don't really make a lot of use of such patterns, as opposed to the planets which comprise them. The modern view looks at the signs involved in, say, a T Square - I look at the planets involved and only consider the signs as far as they modify the planets.

If anyone wishes to add comments, please do because my approach is definitely non-standard at the present time. Different approaches can add insights and information which may well amplify or even challenge some of my points.

le.jour.obscurcit
27-01-2010, 13:33
Like I was telling some of the other people earlier in the thread I AM JUST BEING MYSELF.

If you have something to say, say it rather than inserting a snide and indirect comment in your post.

As I already said,

I understand that you are just explaining how you function, however I don't believe there is any need for you to regard people who think and act differently to what you do as "stupid" or "foolish".

Professor X
28-01-2010, 03:01
perhaps now professor X you can use the knowledge from Minderwiz to look at the aspects in your chart that perhaps you can modify and work on, especially you anger that might hinder you in certain aspects of your lifeyou might be able to learn to be more tolarent to what you see as others faults, and the leaning on you...managing your personality in the workplace is something i found hard, but to gain promotion i had to become a bit calmer at work.

one of the joys of astrology is being able to see why you do things, and see yourself from a different point of view.

Yes I am trying to be able to control the energy of Mars. Sometimes It can really really run rampant in my life. I am getting better and better with it as I get older older. I think Mars is so powerful because the other planets are in weaker placements like Minderwiz mentioned to me.

As I mature and get older I gain insight on how I function and take steps to make my aspects work FOR me rather than against me.

I finally see that rather than being a Mercurial Virgo I am a Martian Virgo.

Professor X
28-01-2010, 03:07
I'd like to thank you for posting your details and allowing people to follow the thread. For them I'd point out that I've not really referred to aspects much (accept for the Sun/Moon conjunction and the squares from Mars) - aspects contribute but they are modifiers, rather than introducing new information. For the same reason I've not really referred to aspect patterns. I know a lot of Astrologers make a lot out of them. I don't really make a lot of use of such patterns, as opposed to the planets which comprise them. The modern view looks at the signs involved in, say, a T Square - I look at the planets involved and only consider the signs as far as they modify the planets.

If anyone wishes to add comments, please do because my approach is definitely non-standard at the present time. Different approaches can add insights and information which may well amplify or even challenge some of my points.

Your are very much welcome.

I tend to look at both the planets and signs. But I my instance it is the planets that appear to be the most important. I suppose that each horoscope is different on how it all interacts.

Minderwiz
28-01-2010, 06:50
My point is that for EVERYONE it is PLANETS that matter, signs are very much secondary (in that they modify planetary energies).

The modern focus on signs is the product of Alan Leo, who wrote the sign definitions from the Planets. Up till that point at the end of the nineteenth century/beginning of the twentieth NO Astrologer would have said (or thought) 'Oh your a triple Virgo'. It was an alien or better still meaningless concept in Astrology. An Astrologer would look at the overall strength of the planets, by essential and accidental dignity and work from them.

Now I don't want to knock Leo (too much) because without him Astrology might not have survived and even if it did, it would never have become as popular. But in saving Astrology, he came perilously close to throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Forget the signs concentrate on the planets. In terms of temperament, you are melancholic/choleric and that is how you would have been described before 1900.

Professor X
28-01-2010, 07:37
My point is that for EVERYONE it is PLANETS that matter, signs are very much secondary (in that they modify planetary energies).

The modern focus on signs is the product of Alan Leo, who wrote the sign definitions from the Planets. Up till that point at the end of the nineteenth century/beginning of the twentieth NO Astrologer would have said (or thought) 'Oh your a triple Virgo'. It was an alien or better still meaningless concept in Astrology. An Astrologer would look at the overall strength of the planets, by essential and accidental dignity and work from them.

Now I don't want to knock Leo (too much) because without him Astrology might not have survived and even if it did, it would never have become as popular. But in saving Astrology, he came perilously close to throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Forget the signs concentrate on the planets. In terms of temperament, you are melancholic/choleric and that is how you would have been described before 1900.


Okay I see what you are saying. What you are saying is counter to everything I have ever read about Astrology. I like it. I learned Astrology from
books and information from the 1920's-1930's. I thought I had gone back far enough because I dont read any of the modern books on Astrology. I only use the modern books for filler material and extra stuff.

I do indeed tend to focus too much on the sun sign and not enough on the planets. That is a lesson that I can take forth me with as I study and learn more about Astrology. I have plans on becoming a professional astrologer so I am trying to learn as much as I can about it all.

dadsnook2000
28-01-2010, 09:00
After Alan Leo, popular astrologers such as Evangeline Adams, Lewellyn, Omar, Mayo and Hone, Tyl (the astrologers from early in the 1900's up until recent decades) all promulgated the three basics of the astrological formula; Planets, Signs and Houses as an interpretive model.

By the mid-1900's alternative approaches were being developed by the Hamburg School with Witte and Ebertin promoting the midpoint system, then the Uranian system with hypothetical points in addition to the regular planets, then the Sidereal system with Cyril Fagan, then Astrocartography, the big push into psychological astrology, the new focus on the very old through Project Hindsight, and the introduction of Joytish practices. It has all become very specialized and very encompassing. It seems to me, having grown with all of this stuff, to be quite interesting but I sense that it could be overwhelming to those just approaching astrology.

When you look at the whole picture, "signs" just don't seem very important. Dave

214red
28-01-2010, 17:32
i agree dave , i used to wonder why i wasnt hugely cancer like, and it wasnt until i started studying astrology last year everything made a bit more sense, and now i understand more about the filters through which i view aspects of my life.

i wish i knew astrology earlier on in my life, would have helped greatly. The great thing about astrology is the complexities, its terrrifying to a newbie like me, but facinating just the same!

Minderwiz
29-01-2010, 04:26
I learned my Astrology from modern authors and then gave it up becauseof other pressures. When I returned to it, some 30 years later, the reawakening of interest in traditional methods was getting into full swing. I must admit to being predisposed towards it but it was sometime before I actually began reading traditioonal texts. When I read Lilly's description of the signs, I found something totally alien from my early studies. Indeed it's such a culture shock to read traditional texts that the full import takes years to sink in. So Dave is right, Astrology can be overwhelming!

Dave mentions the tripartite model of planets, signs and houses. I think the main difference between the 'sun sign' approach and the traditional approach (and some modern approaches) is that when I learned Astrology, these three were treated as almost coequal (and not necessarily closely related). The traditional approach sees the planets as what matters and their sign and house positions simply provide specific information on their status in a particular chart. Signs and houses are both very subordinate to planets, they simply help to set the planets in a specific context and enable their specific roles to be interpreted.

I'm still trying to get to grips with the traditional approach, so I can understand the difficulty newbies have with Astrology but I can glimpse a coherent system which is geared not to telling people more about what makes them tick but is geared to telling people more about what is going to happen to them and when. This is not a deterministic standpoint, Lilly knew 250 years before Leo that a person's social class and family background meant people with similar charts would develop in different ways. Neither Lilly nor Morin put their forecasts in modern probabilistic terms but it's clear that both saw probability (or God) could lead to variations in outcomes.

Read Lilly or Morin and you will see that neither is a 'fortune teller' - the (wrongful) accusation made against Astrologers in the nineteenth century and against Leo in particular. It's a 'scientific' approach (in their terms) and it's that which makes it so fascinating.

Kibeth
29-01-2010, 07:47
Alas no one's discussed astrology's ancient connection with the tarot!

My rather informal studies, or pleasure reading if you like, came off Linda Goodman and William Lamb (Secrets of your Rising Sign). The Sun is the strongest and brightest planet in the solar system hence should rule our basic personalities, even if the other planets alter paths a little bit. Linda's nailed most of my Cancerian makeup right (make that 80%), though the part about me aspiring to be leader, because of the Crab being a cardinal sign, was off. I'm fascinated with Lamb's attempts to synthesize the Rising Sign with Sun Signs. Most astrology websites provide on-site descriptions for individual planets and the house they reside in, but they do not give a "synthesis". Here, Lamb has fine tuned the Sun (Cancer Sun and Virgo asc) into one who does NOT make a good leader, and so it all falls into order.

dadsnook2000
29-01-2010, 10:28
You said, "Alas no one's discussed astrology's ancient connection with the tarot!"

There is an ancient astrology, some four or five thousand years of it, at least. There is no ancient tarot, only some five hundred years or so. A 10 to 1 ratio. What is available for comparison has to be linked to common cultural practices and beliefs during their brief shared history. Dave

Minderwiz
29-01-2010, 23:35
Dave, I suppose for folks of our age 500 years is not 'ancient' but for some people on the forum 40 is 'ancient' LOL.

I fully agree with your point though and I'd also add, that the balance of the connection is heavily slanted in the direction of Astrology - by that I mean that there have been many attempts to clothe Tarot in mantic 'respectability' by trying to link it with Astrology. This has been both conscious and unconscious - remember that Tarot came into being in a Western civilisation that was permeated in all levels byAstrology. It was only natural that Tarot interpretations would draw by analogy on Astrology and that Tarot interpretation would be influenced by a culture in which a belief in Astrology was ingrained into the psyche.

That's something of a shame because Tarot is a GENUINE mantic art and stands full square in it's own right. Yes one can force an Astrological interpretation onto the cards, but then why would you want to do that? In a real sense let the cards speak for themselves.

Kibeth
29-01-2010, 23:48
Was hoping someone would bring up the four elements.