View Full Version : The Chariot/Cheth & Hebrew Letter
anubis777
23-01-2010, 07:43
Hello All,
Sorry to interupt your study of the bol but i need to ask about the signifigance of the hebrew letters assigned to the cards & there importance if any in readings. For instance, the Chariot is assigned Cheth which means fence/enclosure & the zodiac sign Cancer as well as the 4th house. Ok well as we can see the chariot is really protected under the canopy as well as being totally covered in armour from head to toe & hands as well. So a fence keeps things such as persons out but it also keeps things in maybe like a prison. So with all of this protection & since the 4th house rules family & home what exactly are we to make of this card when it shows up in a reading? Are we supposed to protect our vehicles & our home as well as family if so then from what or from whom? On the negative side are we imprisoned by the fence unable to get away from our home/family for some reason? I feel like these hebrew letters are to be added into the meaning of readings but again some are hard to figure out & apply such as the Emperor & it's letter Tzaddi which is a fishook. If this shows up in a reading are we to say or think that the person is going fishing? I'm sure the person would say we were nuts & think we were smoking something. So again a fishook catches fish so if we take the death card 13 which is assigned to the letter Nun & add 1+3 = 4 tada we have the Emperor with his fishook on hand. But what the hell does this all mean? well it means something or Crowley wouldn't have gone through the Tzaddi switch. I know the letters are mostly used for the spiritual meaning but what about the material meaning? Ok well please feel free to enlighten me !!!!!!!!!!!
For instance, the Chariot is assigned Cheth which means fence/enclosure & the zodiac sign Cancer as well as the 4th house. Ok well as we can see the chariot is really protected under the canopy as well as being totally covered in armour from head to toe & hands as well. So a fence keeps things such as persons out but it also keeps things in maybe like a prison. So with all of this protection & since the 4th house rules family & home what exactly are we to make of this card when it shows up in a reading? Are we supposed to protect our vehicles & our home as well as family if so then from what or from whom? On the negative side are we imprisoned by the fence unable to get away from our home/family for some reason?
Yes to all of the above :D I think like any other symbol, they have different meanings depending on the reading/question/situation. Any of those could be the meaning for a certain reading, and also none of those. I often relate the fence to the idea of containing or controlling something, like the Chariot who is a commanding controlling sort of person, the type who would contain or control things. But I've also had this card literally suggest a guardrail, which is I guess a type of fence. Depends on the reading :)
I feel like these hebrew letters are to be added into the meaning of readings but again some are hard to figure out & apply such as the Emperor & it's letter Tzaddi which is a fishook. If this shows up in a reading are we to say or think that the person is going fishing?
Maybe! My father is a mad keen fisherman, as are his brothers, so a patriarch with a fishing rod fits into my worldview very easily. I also think of the hook as looking like the symbol of Mars which is the ruler of Aries, and a warrior like implement, for piercing things with. The hook also catches fish, which you could extrapolate to a commentary on Pisces, or Christ, or the Death Card (scorpio, also ruled by Mars). Depending on the context again.
It might also be useful to think about how the letters relate to the material meaning of a card. What about Lust is serpent like, what about The Lovers relates to a sword, why would The Star fit with a window etc.. Or you can use the cards to inform the letters. e.g. yesterday I discovered that Satan in Hebrew is spelt Shin-Teth-Nun. Interesting that Satan could be related to fire-snake-death.
There's lots of ways to use the ideas, up to you I guess :)
anubis777
23-01-2010, 08:36
Hello Grigori,
Thanks for the reply yes i guess all of the meanings can be used. I have a friend & her boyfriend is psycho that she seperated from well she wanted to know if she took him back how he would be. Well this is one of the cards that came up so knowing how controlling he is i said you would lose your freedom b/c he wants to keep her in the house & not let her go anywhere. The fence is her prison & its so true. I wish someone would write a book & use these hebrew letters in card readings. The letter Peh that is assigned to the Tower is a perfect fit b/c every single time that card comes up verbal arguments/yelling are going on. To bad i can't just understand every letter that easy & apply it.
I think Paul Foster Case's books give a good description of the letters as they apply to the trumps. He's not using the tzaddi/heh swap, but still I think its the most useful discussion I've read on the letters in a single book. That might help you a bit, and is easily found online also.
Also for you friend it might be useful to look at where this letter falls on the tree of life, as well as what it means. It's on the left hand piller of severity, linking Geburah (mars) to Binah (saturn) and it crosses the Abyss. That's probably not the sort of relationship most people want to be in. Also with Crowley's version of the card you see the charioteer holding the holy grail, containing the combined male and female fluids. I'd read this in a similar way, that she could be consumed into him, and crossing the abyss is another type of loss of identity. The spiritual version of those things is quite positive, but the mundane interpretation in a reading sounds kinda miserable to me.
ravenest
23-01-2010, 10:04
I think one can start up with a litteral interpretation of the symbol of a letter but, for me, it goes further. If the tarot is the basis then each card is not just really a letter or card but all vibes in that correspondence. they all enter the unconcious and throw out to you .... whatever you get.
thorhammer
23-01-2010, 10:09
I think that's why Crowley seemed to prefer the word "cognate" to "correspond*" anyway. The latter seems to be so much more concrete, where the former has much more possibility and openness.
\m/ Kat
Not to mention you can start playing with the numerical value of the letters and look for insights.
Ah the Thoth ... who would have thought I would miss you so.....
anubis777
23-01-2010, 10:46
Hello Gregori & everyone,
Yes the relationship is very violent on his part if you notice the crab on the helmet of the charioteer it means that the person has something or someone that they will not let go of. A crab will lose its arms/claws before it lets go of its prey. So that's the meaning of the little crab on his helmet enforced by the fact that Cancer people have a hard time letting go, sorry Cancers no offense. You know if only we had the "Secret Papers" from the O.T.O on the Thoth cards we could all rest in tarot peace but that will never happen. I would even pay someone who is a scholar on the Thoth deck to answer some of my questions from numerology to the hebrew letters along with the astrology that is the golden key that unlocks it all. Yes i also didn't think of Cheth being on the pillar of severity. So if you look at the astrological association of this card on the path of Binah to Geburah it sounds rough. Saturn acting through Cancer on Mars. I think of the sorrow of Binah influencing the loving receptive sign of Cancer on the warring planet of Mars yikes !!!!
You know if only we had the "Secret Papers" from the O.T.O on the Thoth cards we could all rest in tarot peace but that will never happen.
Oh but we alrady have it! You just need to buy all of Crowley's books and study them for a couple of decades :laugh: I don't think anyone at the OTO has any secret papers better than what you can buy from Amazon already ;)
(Wait, are there secret papers? Really? :eek: )
thorhammer
23-01-2010, 11:10
I would even pay someone who is a scholar on the Thoth deck to answer some of my questions from numerology to the hebrew letters along with the astrology that is the golden key that unlocks it all. What were you saying the other day, Grigori, about in life you have to either do it yourself or pay someone to do it for you, but in the study of the occult you have to do both? ;)So if you look at the astrological association of this card on the path of Binah to Geburah it sounds rough. Saturn acting through Cancer on Mars. Or Mars acting through Cancer on Saturn. Wait, wait, where's my Chicken Qabalah . . . ah. The Rabbi always has something to shed . . . Cheth spelled in full enumerates to 418 . . . a familiar number to you, anubis777? Seems that someone in this relationship is not acting according to their Will (gee, really? :P). Not capitalised, it appears that one is exerting will over the other. And that the second needs to stand up for themselves.
\m/ Kat
anubis777
23-01-2010, 11:12
Oh Yes they do have the papers on the cards trust me you only receive them when you attain to a certain grade/degree i don't know which degree or grade that is. There are people out there that know everything about the cards that we are dying to know but they will not disclose any info b/c of there oath. I am already 43 i don't have time to read all of Crowleys books. For example are you familiar with Duquettes book Understanding A/C Thoth Tarot? Well as you may have noticed Lon d. really skims over the astrological explanation on a LOT of the minors saying he really himself doesn't know the meaning. Oh please the man is a high ranking official of the O.T.O do you honestly beleive that he doesn't know the Thoth Tarot? He does this on the 7 of swords not being able to explain the Moon in Aquarius & there is a reason why it is a Waning moon one meaning is that it is a time of magickal weakness the other is that with a waning Moon things are ending & need to end so apply that to the 11th house of Aquarius & you will know exactly what the meaning of this card is plus the symbols. I know Lon from when i lived in Los Angeles & i would go to the public classes that the O.T.O had & he would appear there as a speaker sometimes. I even asked him about certain things & he skirted around the question & wouldn't answer it. So don't be fooled by a smart fool.
anubis777
23-01-2010, 11:22
Thorhammer how right you are regarding the other person needing to stand up for themselves she is to weak. As for as Mars acting through Cancer on Saturn your version is correct only if you are ascending the path not descending the path so you get 2 meanings depending on which you want to apply.
Oh Yes they do have the papers on the cards trust me you only receive them when you attain to a certain grade/degree i don't know which degree or grade that is. There are people out there that know everything about the cards that we are dying to know but they will not disclose any info b/c of there oath.
I dunno, I'm a bit skeptical about that idea. If anyone has the secrets and wants to blab and prove me wrong then great, but if there are any secret papers I can't imagine they are tarot specific or written by Crowley. He published several things on the tarot, the last being the BoT, and really all his good stuff was written down and mostly published. And most of his tarot is based on the GD stuff which has been published by others also. I suspect any secret papers would be a personal interpretation from a follow on author and probably not earth shaking. Maybe though there are secret papers on other things that reflect on the tarot. Maybe some AT-OTOer wouldn't mind stopping by to break a few oaths eh? *looks around hopefully* ;)
I also suspect any omissions from Lon D are things he really just doesn't know. I doubt there are many people who could claim to fully understand everything Crowley did, or have the time to devote to learn all of it. I went to a seminar of DuQuette's recently and he was pretty open. "See this trump, this one explains the secret of the 9th degree which is like this...." My impression wasn't one of elusiveness.
Plus I think a 43 year old could read Crowley's stuff. He wrote most of the good stuff after he was that age after all. Just stay away from buses and undercooked chicken to be safe ;)
thorhammer
23-01-2010, 13:12
As for as Mars acting through Cancer on Saturn your version is correct only if you are ascending the path not descending the path so you get 2 meanings depending on which you want to apply.I know, I just thought it would bear mentioning, as it could be that his Martial character is dominating the situation - his will over hers.
\m/ Kat
Yygdrasilian
23-01-2010, 13:22
In the ancient Hebrew designations there were several Letters corresponding to the parts of a nomadic Tent (=House: Bet) where One had to pass through the men’s domain at the entrance in order to gain access to the women’s within. In this respect, Hhet (Cheth) was the Wall (“Fence”) separating men and women within the family dwelling.
http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/3_home.html
If we partition the deck by digit root, this Letter of trump VII connects to that of trump XVI, Pey, a Mouth - as if to imply an opening of this Wall adjoining the masculine and feminine domains. The metaphor is 'carried' further by the corresponding astrological glyphs of Cancer & Mars which, combined, give a symbolic formula entwining the double-helix: ♋♂
ravenest
27-01-2010, 09:30
Oh but we alrady have it! You just need to buy all of Crowley's books and study them for a couple of decades :laugh: I don't think anyone at the OTO has any secret papers better than what you can buy from Amazon already ;)
(Wait, are there secret papers? Really? :eek: )
}) }) })
ravenest
27-01-2010, 10:06
Hello Gregori & everyone,
A crab will lose its arms/claws before it lets go of its prey.
Not true ... being 'a cancer' :rolleyes: I have inside info;
We let go of our prey all the time ... just before it goes into our mouths.
So that's the meaning of the little crab on his helmet enforced by the fact that Cancer people have a hard time letting go, sorry Cancers no offense.
Do we? I wish all those women I 'dumped' for 'unThelemic' behaviour thought that rather than thinking I was a cold heartless unattached x*@#b&*!
You know if only we had the "Secret Papers" from the O.T.O on the Thoth cards we could all rest in tarot peace but that will never happen.
So now secret OTO papers bring the owner, studier or practicer peace? :laugh: Oh no my friend ... well, maybe, but not the sort of peace I think you mean.
I would even pay someone who is a scholar on the Thoth deck to answer some of my questions from numerology to the hebrew letters along with the astrology that is the golden key that unlocks it all.
Hmmmmmm, exactly how much money are we talking about here?
Yes i also didn't think of Cheth being on the pillar of severity. So if you look at the astrological association of this card on the path of Binah to Geburah it sounds rough. Saturn acting through Cancer on Mars. I think of the sorrow of Binah influencing the loving receptive sign of Cancer on the warring planet of Mars yikes !!!!
I think of the wonderful calm of The Great Sea and the forces that bring formation and structure or disolve them into ecstacy into the loving receptive sign of Cancer (you got that bit right ;) ) on the stong and directive LOVING influence of Mars.
..... Okay, I know ya gonna ask. Here ya go - from the Rite of Mars;
This is the day which down the void abysm
At the Earth-born's spell yawns for Heaven's despotism,
And Conquest is dragged captive through the deep;
Love, from its awful throne of patient power
In the wise heart, from the last giddy hour
Of dead endurance, from the slippery steep,
And narrow verge of crag-like agony, springs
And folds over the world its healing wings.
Gentleness, Virtue, Wisdom, and Endurance--
These are the seals of that most firm assurance
Which bars the pit over Destruction's strength;
And if, with infirm hand, Eternity,
Mother of many acts and hours, should free
The serpent that would clasp her with his length,
These are the spells by which to reassume
An empire o'er the disentangled doom.
To suffer woes which Hope thinks infinite;
To forgive wrongs darker than death or night;
To defy Power, which seems omnipotent;
To love, and bear; to hope till Hope creates
From its own sreck the thing it contemplates;
Neither to change, nor falter, nor repent;
This, like thy glory, Titan, is to be
Good, great and joyous, beautiful and free;
This is alone Life, Joy, Empire, and Victory!
But, of course it all depends on the reading, the people, etc etc,
ravenest
27-01-2010, 10:08
Thorhammer how right you are regarding the other person needing to stand up for themselves she is to weak. As for as Mars acting through Cancer on Saturn your version is correct only if you are ascending the path not descending the path so you get 2 meanings depending on which you want to apply.
YES! Many people forget that. Saturn can be WONDERFUL! But a few of us focus on the ascension, at a certain stage. While others seem to be descending.
ravenest
27-01-2010, 10:17
I dunno, I'm a bit skeptical about that idea. If anyone has the secrets and wants to blab and prove me wrong then great, but if there are any secret papers I can't imagine they are tarot specific or written by Crowley. He published several things on the tarot, the last being the BoT, and really all his good stuff was written down and mostly published. And most of his tarot is based on the GD stuff which has been published by others also. I suspect any secret papers would be a personal interpretation from a follow on author and probably not earth shaking. Maybe though there are secret papers on other things that reflect on the tarot. Maybe some AT-OTOer wouldn't mind stopping by to break a few oaths eh? *looks around hopefully* ;)
Are YOU offering any money? :D
I think we can easily ID the refs from BoT .... " This card means so and so but it also means something secret that intiates of the 5th degree will readily understand, etc, etc , blah, blah."
The WHOLE Thoth deck is an outline of the 'secret' knowledge held by the OTO, as is the intiations, the Mass the BoL etc etc, and all are interchangible, this secret book which explains the Tarot is 'written' by each indivual when they put it all together, smart ones maybe can get it all from one source.
I also suspect any omissions from Lon D are things he really just doesn't know. I doubt there are many people who could claim to fully understand everything Crowley did, or have the time to devote to learn all of it. I went to a seminar of DuQuette's recently and he was pretty open. "See this trump, this one explains the secret of the 9th degree which is like this...." My impression wasn't one of elusiveness.
Ah! But you paid him - didnt you?
This card means so and so but it also means something secret that intiates of the 5th degree will readily understand, etc, etc , blah, blah."
Yes, but anything relating to the system of the OTO is merely a subsidiary technical meaning applied on top of the existing meanings of the cards. In this sense they are primarily of value only within the confines of OTO and it's own initiatory system. The notion that the OTO is withholding the real secrets of the Thoth tarot is laughable and seems to be based on a misunderstanding of the function of OTO, which is an outer order.
But remember this clearly, that the Law cometh from the A.'.A.'., not from the O.T.O.From Letter from 666, Sept. 16, 1946.
The difference between the A.'.A.'. and the O.T.O. is very clear and simple. The A.'.A.'. is a sempiternal institution, and entirely secret. There is no communication between its members. Theoretically, a member knows only the superior who introduced him, and any person whom he himself has introduced. The Order is run on purely spiritual lines.
The object of membership is also entirely simple. The first objective is the Knowledge and Conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel. The next objective, omitting considerations for the present of the 6=5 and 7=4 degrees, is the crossing of the Abyss, and the attainment of mastership of the Temple. This is described very fully especially in Liber 418. Much less is written about the 5=6 degree, i.e., the Knowledge and Conversation, because it is too secret and individual. It is impossible to lay down conditions, or to describe the experience involved in detail.
The O.T.O. has nothing to do with this, except that the Book of the Law and the Word of the Aeon are essential principles of membership. In all other respects, it stands by itself as a body similar to freemasonry, but involving acceptance of a social and economic system which is intended to put the world on its feet. There is also, of course, the secret of the IX° which is so to say, the weapon which they may use to further these purposes.
To show you the difference, Theodor Reuss was Supreme Head of the O.T.O., but was not even probationer of the A.'.A.'.
Wait, are there secret papers? Really? :eek:
Yes, but they are all in Class B. Note that the Probationer of A.'.A.'. is required to study all the Class B material. ;)
You've probably downloaded them already. But if you haven't just do a search for:
Liber CCXXVIII De Natura Deorum.
Liber XXIV De Nuptiis Secretis Deorum cum Hominibus.
Liber C Agape Azoth sal Philosophorum.
Liber CDXIV De Arte Magica.
The only reason Crowley didn't publish them is because of his various OTO oaths.
You might also want to do a search for Francis X. King's, "The Secret Rituals of the O.T.O". Yes, it does contain some errors, but if you have no intention of joining OTO it won't do you any harm.
thorhammer
27-01-2010, 20:59
And if you do have intentions to joining the OTO?
Sorry, I'm feeling flippant . . . it sounds like this document knows my intentions and will flay me if I intend joining . . . if not, however, it will just ignore me :P
Sorry. Still curious though :)
\m/ Kat
You've probably downloaded them already. But if you haven't just do a search for:
Thanks Aeon, I have several of those, but not all so will hunt down the remainder. I know a probationer's reading should fill up a year, but I think I could stretch it across several :laugh:
You might also want to do a search for Francis X. King's, "The Secret Rituals of the O.T.O". Yes, it does contain some errors, but if you have no intention of joining OTO it won't do you any harm.
:laugh: Well I think my local OTO has no intention of letting me join, so I shall read it guilt free and with reckless abandon ;)
And if you do have intentions to joining the OTO?
Well obviously you might not want to read King's book. :laugh:
But you might also want to investigate what the OTO actually is before you join. Some people join expecting it to be some great magical order, and are disappointed when they find out it's more like a social club. (see the letter extract I posted earlier.) In an A.'.A.'. sense the system of OTO, just like the old Golden Dawn, never leaves Malkuth/Neophyte.
Part of the efficacy of initiation rites lies in the surprise factor. If you already know what's coming the impact of the initiation might not be as intense.
For example I can think of one initiation (not OTO) where the candidate is made to believe they are in real physical danger. The intended feelings of fear that are supposed to be aroused by this situation might not occur if the candidate had foreknowledge that the initiators weren't really trying to kill him/her.
The publication of secret rituals to nullify their efficacy was partly behind Crowley's decision to publish the Golden Dawn initiations in the Equinox. But some people, like Regardie, think otherwise.
I know a probationer's reading should fill up a year, but I think I could stretch it across several :laugh:
See Liber Collegii Sancti - The task of a Probationer.
1. The Period of Probation shall be at least one year.
ravenest
28-01-2010, 10:16
Loved reading post 21, especially after post 20! :laugh:.
Also LOVE the way all groups all over the world get tarred with the same brush - classic. Sorry guys, I'm not big on 'academia' just my own experience.
ravenest
28-01-2010, 10:19
And if you do have intentions to joining the OTO?
Sorry, I'm feeling flippant . . .
So am I :laugh:. Well I guess you could memorize the ritual, and the candidates responses and then go into the temple and .... Ohhhh that's too wicked to write here!
ravenest
28-01-2010, 10:26
But you might also want to investigate what the OTO actually is before you join. Some people join expecting it to be some great magical order, and are disappointed when they find out it's more like a social club.
EXACTLY! And I'd take it further, check out the actual group you would like to join and dont prejudge them according to what you checked out about the OTO in general.
For some, it might seem like a sociall club, others might seem like (or even might be?) a very magical group (and thats easy to tell, check out the members and the people running it - that is if you can tell 'shit from shinola' as they say) and some you might NEVER want to come across again!
And if anyone thinks crap doesnt go on in the GD or AA as well ... look, just read Regardie's "Everything that you should know about the GD. Un/fortunatly (?) no one has written such a doc (? or have they) about the AA.
But again, I'm no academic, just what I have observed from personal experience.
thorhammer
28-01-2010, 12:51
But you might also want to investigate what the OTO actually is before you join. Oh, I already have. I was shooed away unceremoniously. *le shrug*
As an aside, and because I feel the need:Part of the efficacy of initiation rites lies in the surprise factor. If you already know what's coming the impact of the initiation might not be as intense.
For example I can think of one initiation (not OTO) where the candidate is made to believe they are in real physical danger. The intended feelings of fear that are supposed to be aroused by this situation might not occur if the candidate had foreknowledge that the initiators weren't really trying to kill him/her.I think I know the one you mean; I've been through one like this. But I did know, and yet that knowing in no way diminished the impact, let me tell you. It was a shock, and a bad one.
\m/ Kat
Oh, I already have. I was shooed away unceremoniously. *le shrug*
How do you sort the serious aspirant from the merely curious? ;)
Loved reading post 21, especially after post 20! :laugh:.
I'm glad you enjoyed it. :)
Personally I don't confuse the OTO with Thelema itself. Both the OTO and it's "secret" existed before Thelema. And it it was the OTO that accepted Thelema, not the other way around.
ravenest
29-01-2010, 10:11
Yep, otherwise we would have ended up with a type of Neo-Gnostic/Christian/abstactosophical/Fremasonry.Or the Fraternus Saturnii Urk!
I'm not disputing what Aeon says, he is right in one way, yes, check the documents and the books. But is religion and its workings in the world accuratly portrayed by the founding enlightened books or teachers? Visa versa.
IMO the AA is supposedly 'run' by secret heads, the inner plane contact and all that. That's to be arranged so it somes through the boss and filters down through the grades until it hits you. Although in no way does the OTO require that you make this link in your own self, IMO if you dont, you are wasting your time and yes, it might be like a social club.
Personally I'll make the link with whatever secret chiefs, higher selves, HGA's etc MYSELF and wont be relying on some dude up the top to make the link and pass on orders.
But then again I am a spiritual 'anachrist' })
ravenest
29-01-2010, 10:16
I'm glad you enjoyed it. :)
And it it was the OTO that accepted Thelema, not the other way around.
But why did AC 'choose' the OTO for the repositry of these (and many more) mysteries and traditons? He didnt have to have anything to do with it. He could have just gone AA. (Its okay mod. I am thinking of The Chariot being a vehicle for mysteries - stay on topic R. :laugh:
Or did he get sucked in by flattery;
My God your brilliant! Here, have a 9th Degree. :laugh:
But why did AC 'choose' the OTO for the repositry of these (and many more) mysteries and traditons? He didnt have to have anything to do with it. He could have just gone AA.
Yes, A.C. could have just stuck with the A.'.A.'. system if his only purpose was to teach methods for achieving K&C and crossing the Abyss. But for promulgating the Law of Thelema the A.'.A.'. is a very unsuitable vehicle. Crowley always knew the A.'.A.'. would never be a mass movement. (Few and secret) With a few exceptions, almost no one made any progress beyond Probationer or Neophyte.
The spreading of the Law required a "popular" vehicle that was accessible to everyone. (The many and the Known) This is why, after the completion of the A.'.A.'. system, Crowley focused more and more attention on the O.T.O.
On top of this the O.T.O. was a mundane fraternity and could therefore raise money via dues. This is not possible within A.'.A.'..
The radical social reforms that Crowley envisioned are outside the scope of A.'.A.'.. For that you need a order concerned with temporal affairs. Once again the O.T.O. fit's the bill.
My God your brilliant! Here, have a 9th Degree. :laugh:
Priceless. And presumably with a German accent