Gerd Ziegler's Tarot: Mirror of the Soul

[Cascade_Jon]

OK, after having given this book a great deal of contemplation, I have to say that this book is both insightful and frustrating, all at the same time. Did anyone else have this reaction? Ziegler does such a wonderful job describing the symbolism present in the cards themselves (although he fails miserably in explaining the numerological significance of the Minor Arcana). But his interpretations are amazingly optimistic in every case. This is especially true of the Majors: each and every one of the Major Arcana is described in glowing light! Even a card like the Tower, which refers clearly to massive internal chaos, has this negative implication brushed aside in favor of focusing on its role in promoting spiritual improvement. True enough, but why not mention the more negative side as well?

He does this consistently, always seeing the optimistic side of the cards and downplaying the more complex reality. The Heirophant is a sign of spiritual mastery (what about its associations with stifling tradition?!), the Devil has nothing to do with materialism, selfishness or suppression and instead refers only to "not letting people demonize you"(?!!!), the Fortune is stripped of its connection with chance and instead merely refers to winning, hell even the Moon, while his keywords include references to illusions and dreams, he claims it indicates only a need to "be careful." What kind of advice is this? Tarot symbolism has to be more profound than the sort of advice your mother gave you about crossing the street!

Why are there no deep books on the Crowley tarot? Doesn't the deck deserve it's own 78 Degrees of Wisdom?

[jema]

i got the book in swedish but i haven't used it much, perhaps because it is like you say - not so very deep.
i prefer to simply read the Book of Thoth
and i also have the Banzhaf - keywords
if i need to check up on a symbol.
for me those are really all i need.
oh and i got kaz_
:)

but yeah, it would be most welcome with a really thick and juicy thoth-book. perhaps written by someone other then banzhaf...

but for really great interpretations and such - this forum Thoth Tarot forum, is a gold mine - or rather, it has the potential to be when we get a bit further on the way.

[HOLMES]

in terms of the toth, and depth of the deck, it does deserve a 78 degrees type of book. i think the trouble lies in the differnce of the two decks, night and day but the same under the moon.

they have kabalistic , astrology , probaly numerologically assocations that are almost the same, (having been both in the golden dawn ).

they change some associations based on their knowledge, and crowley felt waite didn't open up enough of the knowledge. for example (crowley and waite had a riveraly i heard for years, with wait barely mentioning crowley or never in his books while crowley bashed waited or so i read.)

looking at the differnce between the two decks, in my opnion the rider with it picture scenes and possibly storyboard possiblities allowed itself to the inuitive picture approach more of the rachael pollack.

example it wasn't into i read tarot of the soul that i knew that was that thing around the fool head was, eheh. and why the crodile was in there. and other stuff.

i think the best thing would be for one of us , perhaps yourself, ( i dont' mean to be slanderous here ) to take all your knowledge and make such a book for the crowley tarot.

have you looked at crowley own book for his tarot , or perhaps keywords for the toth ( i don't know if that book is deep as i never read it ).

i was having similar thoughts as well to the toth lately be nice to have a in depth book like 78 degrees for the deck.. since it has influence so many.


(then agian some didn't find the 78 degrees helpful as well as some didn't find the tarot for yourself helpful ..
i am one who did :O)

[firemaiden]

Originally posted by Cascade_Jon
Why are there no deep books on the Crowley tarot? Doesn't the deck deserve it's own 78 Degrees of Wisdom?

Forgive my rather strong opinion on this matter, but I think it is absurd to look anywhere other than the Book of Thoth by Crowley himself. Nothing could possibly go deeper; he doesn't leave anyone room to say anything else. He has hyperanalysed and hypersymbolised his own cards. Anything else is just going to be a dumbed-down version of the Book of Thoth, derivative, and paraphrasing, a sort of reader's digest. Is that what you want?

Be a man! Read the real thing!: http://www.angelfire.com/celeb/Crowley/thoth/thoth.html

[jema]

*cheers for firemaiden*
:)

but... it is still rather nice to have a book on symbols. sometimes Mr Crowley can be a bit vague. but i do agree with you. Book of Thoth is seriously under-rated and it is not all that hard to grasp if one just skip the introduction and focus on what he writes about the cards.

i think i will sit down and read through the whole thing this summer though. i notice i have been eyeing the appendix quite i lot lately.

[Rose]

78 Degrees of Wisdom is an outstanding book. Rachel Pollack is an amazing woman and a clear and insightful teacher and writer. However, I think that 78 Degrees of Wisdom is probably Rachel Pollack's idea of a good beginner's introduction to the Rider Waite deck-not an everything guide to all you'll ever need to know about the RWS deck. For one thing her book glosses over Western Esotericism with regard to the Rider Waite Deck. In many ways Banzhaf's book (which I read a long time ago but don't own) is the equivalent of 78 Degrees of Wisdom for the Thoth. The difference is that Waite himself didn't write a detailed book like the book of Thoth so comparisons can't be made in the same way.

Also, for tarot to work for me it can't be a static system. No matter what Crowley intended his cards to portray, others have to have the right to see their own visions and interpretations in them.

I do think that it would be nice to have an annotated version of the Book of Thoth.

Rose

[isthmus nekoi]

Yes! I second the annotated version of BOT, along w/an annoted bibliography :P!! Just bought a copy yesterday at the used book store ^_^

p.s. Also picked up a copy of Foucault's Pendulum (sp?) by Umberto Eco b/c someone recommended it to me.... looks like a fun romp through esoteric land, thought y'all might be interested.

[firemaiden]

Originally posted by Rose
n many ways Banzhaf's book (which I read a long time ago but don't own) is the equivalent of 78 Degrees of Wisdom for the Thoth.

I own the book by Akron and Hajo Banzhof. I don't see anything in there that is not in The Book of Thoth, but there is a lot in the Book of Thoth that is not in Akron/Banzhoff... That is what I meant by derivative and dumbed down. Sure, anyone is entitled to write their own opinions if they think they have some. I think you will find after you read the book of Thoth, it will be difficult to come up with an angle Crowley hasn't come up with himself.

ON the other hand, I find the book by Margarete Peterson on her deck sheds new light on Crowley, as she has sort of synthesised all the previous traditions during her 22 years of working on her deck.

I agree, that a good scholarly dictionary of symbols should be on everyone's desk.

[Rusty Neon]

Rose summed up very well my views on 78Dw and the Banzhaf/Akron book.

The best picks for a Thoth deck book are, of course, the Book of Thoth, followed by the Banzhaf/Akron book. Wang's Qabalistic Tarot book also provides good insights on the Thoth deck, although Wang splits his focus as he references more than one deck in his book.

Ziegler's Mirror and Arriel's book are also interesting to read for the new perspectives they can give a reader in helping to form his or her own take on the Crowley deck. However, Ziegler and Arriel obviously (and often) present views that are completely different from those in the Book of Thoth. As for Banzhaf's Keywords book, I would submit that, compared to the Banzhaf/Akron book, it is somewhat further away from the Book of Thoth and heading towards Ziegler's intuitive take.

The book I'm looking forward to see is Lon DuQuette's _UNDERSTANDING ALEISTER CROWLEY'S THOTH TAROT_, to be published by Red Wheel / Weiser in September 2003. DuQuette is a member of the O.T.O., the metaphysical organization founded by Crowley. I hope DuQuette will be going into the divination aspects of the Thoth deck.

[Rose]

Firemaiden,
I may not have made myself clear. I believe I agree with you. I don't think there is any substitute for the Book of Thoth if one wants a deep understanding of Crowley's deck. Just like the book "78 Degrees of Wisdom" doesn't cover everything about the Waite deck, Akron & Banzhof's book doesn't cover the Thoth deck as completely as the "Book of Thoth." I think both those books were designed to get people started.
Rusty Neon,
I wasn't aware that Lon DuQuette has a soon to be published book on the Thoth Tarot. I'm looking forward to that one also.

Rose

[firemaiden]

Originally posted by Rose
Just like the book "78 Degrees of Wisdom" doesn't cover everything about the Waite deck, Akron & Banzhof's book doesn't cover the Thoth deck as completely as the "Book of Thoth." I think both those books were designed to get people started.

Forgive me Rose, for I am going to disagree with you again... but that is what makes discussions interesting, right?

I disagree with the equivalence made between 78DW and Akron Banzhof. 78 Degrees of Wisdom is a very deep book. There was a need and place for this book. I think RP has really mined the deck very deeply for all the nuggets of gold she could find, not that there won't always be more. I don't think this is just a book to "get people started", although I if I am wrong, I would really be delighted, because I would love to read something even deeper.

ON the other hand, in case you haven't noticed (joke) the Akron/Banzhoff book pisses me off...much the same way secondary manuals and courses on "Windows" irritate me -- I just don't see what they add.

[Moongold]

Thanks for this discussion. I am a newcomer to the Thoth and chose the Ziegler over Thoth's own book because it seemed less dark. I have noticed the optimistic Ziegler interpretations but was happy to go along with them for a while.

I think I might have to get the Thoth book itself. I found a website which has good inormation (and the Thoth book). I think it is called "Atu".

Moongold

[firemaiden]

Wouldn't you consider the Ziegler book a guide to inner work using the Thoth, rather than a guide to the Thoth itself?

Here again is the link to the site with the entire book of Thoth:

http://www.angelfire.com/celeb/Crowley/thoth/mainnav.html

[Cascade_Jon]

I love the comments from everyone about the importance of the Book of Thoth, but I'm not sure I agree that Crowley's book is the very last word on interpreting the deck (even if he is the author). Why not? I think the comparable metaphor is that between abstract mathematics (theory) and applied mathematics (engineering). Just because the abstract mathematician may eventually be able to derive all the rules of engineering from his/her own work, does that mean that engineering, the work of applying their theories, is any less important? Certainly Crowley's Book of Thoth gives us nearly every bit of symbolism, every metaphysical theory he intended to cram into the deck. Basically, it is a complete work of abstract philosophy, a fine theoretical statement of every thing that went into the machine.

But is that to say that there's no room for books discussing how to apply the symbolism, the theory in the real world? To say no would be like saying that because one knows how the car was built, then there's no need for driver's ed. And I wouldn't want to share the road with that driver! How about you?

[firemaiden]

That is true Cascade Jon, I would even venture to say there is almost nothing in the Book of Thoth on actually using the Thoth Deck for engineering, or for using the deck as a car.

[Cascade_Jon]

Heh, wise ass :-)

[firemaiden]

MUHAHAHAHAHAHAH :D :D :D

[Emily]

I've only been using the Thoth for a few weeks but noticed almost right away that none of my Rider Waite inspired books was right for this deck. I tried to read parts of The Book of Thoth online before deciding whether to buy it, I think to be honest its a little deep for me at the moment lol, - The books that I have, when used together, give me good insight into what this deck is about.
I wouldn't, however, be able to point at one book and say that it is the best - I have Mirror of the Soul, Keywords, The Crowley Tarot handbook and the Handbook by Angeles Arrien. I like all of these books for different reasons and they are all helping me get the feel of the Thoth deck.
I sometimes wonder why the Thoth deck wasn't published in Crowley's lifetime, Why didn't he publish it? Or was it just supposed to stay between the covers of The Book of Thoth?

[Astraea]

If memory serves, there were a great many funding difficulties associated with the Thoth deck and, after many years of wrangling, it was finally published in 1944. Crowley died in 1947. I wonder what he would have thought about the current popularity of the deck.

In addition to the works that have been mentioned here, there is also a book about the Thoth -- unhappily (in my view) entitled New Age Tarot -- by James Wanless.

[Emily]

Ahh so the deck was published in his lifetime, I thought I'd read that it was published after. At least he did see it as a deck then - I too wonder what he would think of its popularity now lol :)

[Emily]

Hi Astraea,

I did check up on when the Thoth deck was first published and although it was in The Book of Thoth, first published in 1944, the deck itself wasn't published until 1969.
According to the 'Mirror of the Soul' it was photographed and published by a Major Grady L McMurtry who had published The Book of Thoth.
I thought I remembered something about it because at the time I wondered who got all the royalties from the deck if Crowley and Harris were dead.

[Astraea]

Yes, Emily, I discovered the same information this weekend, when I purchased the small-sized Crowley deck and read the booklet. The 1940's date I quoted you was from a biography of Crowley, but it was clearly in error. I came here intending to amend my statement to you, and found your post! Thank you very much for meeting me on the same street! :)

[Emily]

Hi Astraea,

I never thought to look in the LWB lol, I went looking for where I thought I'd read it. Come to think of it, I don't think I've even given the LWB a passing glance - Maybe I should get it back out :)

[rom]

This gerd ziegler book is a good entry door to the world of crowley he gives practical information [like a cook book] for you to begin with I owe much to it.
It is also a good book because he leaves you hungry enough to search for more his attitude is open and exploring....
Mybe I like him because we came from the same school [THE OSHO TRANSFORMATION SCHOOL]
I translated it into Hebrew 15 years ago but it never got published....