View Full Version : The Sapphist Tarot
Alamaris
16-02-2010, 16:13
[VERY tentative title. It sounds clunky, but it's the best I can think of at the moment. :P]
Ever since I started reading tarot, I wanted to make a deck -- and more than anything, I wanted to make a lesbian tarot deck. Being an artist, a writer, AND a tarot reader has definite perks. However, I wanted to wait until I knew I could a) handle such a big project, and b) be confident enough with my artwork.
Well, I'm there.
I first mentioned the idea of a lesbian tarot deck in the discussion about women-only tarot decks over here (http://tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=132384). I described it as "a down to earth (i.e., not preachy or new agey or what have you), multi cultural, butches-and-femmes-and-everything-in-between lesbian deck with anatomically correct (and diverse) artwork," and said that "I have no interest in doing just another deck filled with goddess spirituality and Sheila Na-gigs -- or, on the other hand, one filled with perky Barbie dolls who have one facial expression." The few responses I got were positive, and just encouraging enough to get me really, really excited about it. It's one thing when you've had a deck in your head for years, quietly breeding ideas, and quite another when people you respect say, "Yeah, sounds cool. Go for it!"
So, this will be the creation thread for the deck!
Thus far I'm mostly brainstorming, and I keep hitting one major roadblock. I read with RWS, Thoth, Marseilles, and everything in between. That being said, my goal for this deck is accessibility.
My first question for you folks is, if you're interested in the sounds of the deck, what sort of base would you like to see? (When I say base, I mean base for the meanings, not necessarily the images -- even if I go with RWS, I have lots of ideas for reinterpretation of old, overused themes.) RWS meanings? Thoth? Something entirely different (although I don't know what that would look like)? Any thoughts on the matter are more than welcome. :D
If all goes well, after some input, I'll have some sketches to show you folks in a hurry! This deck is taking over my brain -- I'm even dreaming about it. :bugeyed:
Metafizzypop
16-02-2010, 20:53
Hi Alamaris. Sounds like an ambitious project. Fun, too. I would probably call it the Sappho Tarot just because it rhymes. Just a thought.
Anyway, about the meanings. Speaking for myself, I'm a little tired of the RWS system. It seems that most new decks use those meanings, or something close. There's also the Thoth, but I find it a little cold. I don't think it suits a deck with a lesbian theme at all.
I don't think you need to base your deck on a pre-existing system. What I was thinking about was Sappho herself. I read a lot of her poetry years ago, and it was pretty intense stuff. There's a lot of meaning in it. What I would do for this deck is go through Sappho's writings, and look for "sound bites." Things that stand out to you, and make a strong impression. And then base a card on that sentence. I think there's enough meaning in Sappho's poetry to fill all the pips.
Just an idea. Whatever you decide to do, I wish you the best of luck.
baba-prague
16-02-2010, 21:16
Oh goodness, I hesitate to say anything because I know that a lot of people here argue against RWS. But the fact is that it's become THE standard system (this is even becoming true in much of Europe) and so if you don't base a deck at least broadly on RWS, you are asking users to learn a whole new system - fine for a very serious user but those who are beginners or only use tarot occasionally will be reluctant to put in a lot of extra time to learn one deck.
Because of this the fact is that the deck will be more accessible and probably find more buyers if it follows RWS - like it or not (personally, I like RWS very much so for me this isn't a problem). But you don't need to follow it rigidly, you can reinterpret it so that it suits the theme.
Anyway, good luck with the deck, I'll be very interested to see some cards.
Metafizzypop
16-02-2010, 22:45
Baba-prague, that's a very compelling argument in favor of using the RWS system. Yet I do see decks getting published that don't use that system, or at least, have taken so many liberties with it that it's hard to recognize the RWS influence. Crow's Magick, Vertigo, and the Alchemical always have me reaching for the book.
I think it's OK to have some variation out there in the world of tarot. Just to keep people on their toes, and make them keep learning. I agree totally that an unfamiliar system could turn some people away. On the other hand, the completely-familiar stands a chance of eventually doing the same thing.
baba-prague
16-02-2010, 22:54
Baba-prague, that's a very compelling argument in favor of using the RWS system. Yet I do see decks getting published that don't use that system, or at least, have taken so many liberties with it that it's hard to recognize the RWS influence. Crow's Magick, Vertigo, and the Alchemical always have me reaching for the book.
Yes, it's perfectly possible to bring out a successful deck that isn't based on RWS, but it's just more of a commercial risk. It depends what sort of audience the OP is looking for.
As I say, it isn't a huge issue for us because we like RWS in any case - our interest is in improvisations around a theme I suppose, and we've never felt restricted by RWS. But I do fully understand why some people get tired of it.
I'd also argue for basing the deck more or less on the RWS system - with lots of room for reinterpretations and deviations from it where they seem appropriate/necessary/interesting.
I believe that a lesbian-themed deck will very likely NOT be someone's sole reading deck for everyone and every situation. Therefore I'd stick with the most well-known tarot system (even though I'm sure someone will be able to argue that the RWS is not a world-wide standard...) and would focus on retelling the old RWS "stories" with a new twist. The good thing is, if there are any RWS cards you never really liked, you are free to change them to something else. :)
I'll be curiously following the development of this deck! Thanks for even taking on the project! :thumbsup:
I shall be following the development of this deck attentively. I'm really curious to see how it pans out. I think the market/tarot community needs a lesbian deck.
I have never created a tarot deck, but if I did, I think I would use the RWS system as broadly or as tightly as I wanted. I think it is a system which allows you to adhere (or not) at whatever level you feel comfortable with. In terms of being commercially attractive (do people really go into Waterstones/ Barnes & Noble and sit down on the sofas with half a dozen shrink-wrapped boxes and go off the blurb?), I would say the RWS is where it's at, even though I personally flit comfortably between all three systems depending on my phase.
zan_chan
17-02-2010, 07:36
It seems to me that RWS would be the best choice for any sort of theme deck, lesbian or otherwise-- illustrated minors mean 56 more chances for you to develop your theme. Isn't a themed Marseille basically a Majors-only deck with colorful pips thrown in? I'm not quite sure how one might make Marseille or Thoth pips come across as overly lesbian...
Best of luck to you, though. I'll also be cheering from the sidelines, watching your progress. It's definitely time for a good lesbian deck.
Alamaris
17-02-2010, 15:48
But the fact is that it's become THE standard system (this is even becoming true in much of Europe) and so if you don't base a deck at least broadly on RWS, you are asking users to learn a whole new system - fine for a very serious user but those who are beginners or only use tarot occasionally will be reluctant to put in a lot of extra time to learn one deck.
Because of this the fact is that the deck will be more accessible and probably find more buyers if it follows RWS - like it or not (personally, I like RWS very much so for me this isn't a problem). But you don't need to follow it rigidly, you can reinterpret it so that it suits the theme.
I agree -- like I said, I want it to be very accessible despite the theme, so I'd rather not expect readers to have to learn a whole new system. Thanks for the input. :)
I'd also argue for basing the deck more or less on the RWS system - with lots of room for reinterpretations and deviations from it where they seem appropriate/necessary/interesting.
I believe that a lesbian-themed deck will very likely NOT be someone's sole reading deck for everyone and every situation. Therefore I'd stick with the most well-known tarot system (even though I'm sure someone will be able to argue that the RWS is not a world-wide standard...) and would focus on retelling the old RWS "stories" with a new twist. The good thing is, if there are any RWS cards you never really liked, you are free to change them to something else. :)
I'll be curiously following the development of this deck! Thanks for even taking on the project! :thumbsup:
I like the way you put that: "old RWS stories with a new twist." That's what I want the deck to focus on -- old stories, new light! And you're right, it does give me a lot of room to play around.
It's my pleasure! I'm glad to see people are excited about it. :D
I shall be following the development of this deck attentively. I'm really curious to see how it pans out. I think the market/tarot community needs a lesbian deck.
Best of luck to you, though. I'll also be cheering from the sidelines, watching your progress. It's definitely time for a good lesbian deck.
Le Fanu, zan_chan, thank you for your input! Most especially (and this goes for everyone), thank you for your interest. It's really, really exciting to hear that the market is ready for a deck like (I'm hoping!) this will be. :laugh:
***
In other news, cards are bombarding me from all over the place. As soon as I realized that crafty-and-new RWS was the way to go, they just jumped me. I have drafts laid down for the Wheel of Fortune, and the Devil has shown up in a big way. In fact, I'd say the preliminary sketch for that one is done! After I get a few more laid out tentatively, I'll throw them up here with some notes.
I also will be following this thread - a strong Lesbian tarot will be an interesting and welcome addition to tarot. I work with a female only deck at the moment, although it is not lesbian in theme, and find that the lack of males in the deck isn't noticeable because the energy of the deck is so very strong and forceful in places.
I am another in favour of RWS with twist.
aside for Le Fanu - I sit on the sofas in Waterstones and read chapters of books I'm thinking of buying. Very comfy.
Alamaris
24-02-2010, 15:22
Preliminary sketches are a go!
Sorry about the wait, guys. The weekend was craaaazy. :bugeyed:
I have very very messy bluelines for Justice, the Empress, the Emperor, and the Hierophant. Those, I'll clean up more before showing. I do, however, have cleaned up sketches for the Wheel, the Magician, Death, the Devil, and the World. They're all very WIP-esque, especially in the case of the Wheel and the World, but this way I can get feedback before they're finalized!
1. The Wheel (http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e342/Alamaris/wheel.jpg). I got the phrase "Some days the Wheel carries you; some days you carry the Wheel" stuck in my head, and scribbled this out. It needs serious tweaking, but the concept is there.
2. The Magician (http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e342/Alamaris/magician.jpg). She wouldn't tell me what her nationality was, so she ended up looking like she has a VERY interesting family tree -- a little Asian, a little Native American, a little African.
3. Death (http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e342/Alamaris/death.jpg). Elements of symbolic rebirth, plus Skeletal Figure In Dark Cloak. (Death herself will be slightly more skeletal when I'm done with her. Subtly, though.)
4. The Devil (http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e342/Alamaris/devil.jpg). This was the first card to force me to the sketchbook, and wouldn't let me go until s/he was finished. The plants around her/him are oak and calla lilies, representing the masculine and the feminine, respectively. S/he mocks the Magician and the Hierophant with her/his imitation of their hands, and s/he performs a benediction on the beast below her/him, symbolizing thinking with your belt buckle instead of your brain. Familiar elements are the goat's head, the chain (which the beast wears), and the stomach-mouth (more typically from Marseilles images). The jury is still out on making her/him more overtly hermaphroditic, or just leaving it unsaid with the plant symbology. Thoughts?
5. The World (http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e342/Alamaris/world.jpg). Includes the four Evangelical animals (or four Kerubic beasts, or the four Orphic representations of Phanes -- whichever), a gently dancing/stretching Anima Mundi holding the "mace and orb" that represent androgyny. (Again with the masculine/feminine symbols. There's a lot of gender ambiguity in these majors!) Unfinished elements, like the bull's wonky legs, the angel's head and the Anima Mundi's hair, are being tweaked.
Enjoy! Constructive criticism is not expected, but it IS welcomed if folks are so inclined. :)
Great sketches! Here are some spontaneous impressions/thoughts. :)
Wheel: I like the general idea. The hair on the upper person seems a bit too cartoonish for my taste, though. And they both could look a bit more mature to be in this card (not that the priciple you described doesn't affect young people, but for some reason I always expect at least one crone-ish figure on the Wheel).
I love the Magician, although I'm not sure if she needs all that hair. Maybe just leave the antler-like parts and turn the rest into a cloak?
The four arms are great, as are the tattoos of the suit symbols.
(On first sight I took the card to be an iPod, but I'm sure that's just because I've stared at computer monitors for too long already today... ;))
Death looks very promising, too. I'm curious to see how the subtly skeletal effect will turn out.
I like the combination of traditional scythe and the caring embrace!
Devil: A wolf in sheep's clothing comes to mind (for whatever reason, because I can't pin that idea on anything in the image)...
I like the mouth on the stomach, but I'll admit I'd prefer turning it into a Vagina Dentata... :) (If that's too graphic for your deck concept, you could still turn the mouth sideways and make it more vulvic in shape.)
I'm not sure I like the silicone breasts, but mostly I'm wondering if you put them there on purpose?
For some reason, I like the bitter aftertaste of an obviously hermaphroditic Devil figure in a lesbian deck (the bitterness is related to the fact that actual intersex/hermaphroditic people aren't very welcome in many lesbian communities - or beds). At the same time, I wonder if it's necessary to repeat the visual stereotype of hermaphrodites, especially since I've personally been told by intersex people that they find it offensive (and inaccurate). So if you're going for hermaphroditic "realness" here (as much as that term makes sense for a human figure with a ram's head), I'd advise you to go for MUCH smaller breasts and only a hint of a penis.
By the way, I'm still trying to make sense of the emphasis on masculinity and femininity in this card in a lesbian deck. Care to share your thoughts about this, so that I can get it? :)
Final nitpicky tree hugger comment: The oak leaves need to be round at the tips where they currently have a point.
I like the arrangement of figures in the World. And I very much like Anima Mundi bald (or with VERY short hair)!
General remarks: I like the way you draw faces. They are nicely varied and expressive.
I'm most worried about exaggerating the hair to a point where it gets too cartoon-ish. Personally, I'd like to see some "realness" in the bodies, and "too-decorative" hair could ruin that effect that you otherwise easily achieve.
I'm hoping for a broader range of ages and many more figures of the Magician's size and beyond. I'm also hoping for some really butch/masculine women.
The style of your drawings reminds me most of Egypt Urnash's Silicone Dawn Tarot (http://egypt.urnash.com/tarot/) and of Hannafate's Tarot Sexualis (http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=123543). I like both of them, so that's not a bad thing, mind you.
So far, the images don't feel particularly "lesbian" to me, but maybe that's because most of them show a single human? Can you as the creator say more about what makes these images "lesbian" to you? It still looks as if it's going to be a nice deck, and I'm curious to see more!
Wow I really like the Wheel and the World!
I also don't see an overtly lesbian feel to the deck yet, but I think that will be something that is easier to express through the minor arcana and the Lovers card. Great job so far, can't wait to see the finished cards!
Alamaris
25-02-2010, 06:21
@Cat:
* The ladies on the Wheel are really amorphous placeholders at the moment. A general comment at your concern with cartoon-y hair is that the hair is, again, a placeholder -- any hair that shows up in the final work will be a lot more realistic for sure! (Same with the oak leaves; they'll definitely look like oak leaves when I'm done with them.)
* The cloak is a great idea! I knew there was something behind her, so I assumed hair. I just changed it in the sketchbook and it looks better already.
* The Devil's fake-looking breasts were definitely intentional. I was riffing on the idea of the Devil as representing illusion -- false ideals of beauty and the like.
@ Both Cat and Celice:
The lesbian theme is giving me hangups, so I'm not surprised that others noticed it. Mostly, it's my doubts that I'm the right person to make this deck -- my primary reason is that I am literally the only lesbian I know. Even the local gay pride parade is mostly male. I know next to nothing about the spectrum of real lesbians, especially the lesbian culture; I'm going on my own experience and books, neither of which are necessarily good models for a realistic deck. So far, the deck keeps startling me with things it demands me to include, things that aren't a part of a lesbian theme at all, which makes me wonder if it wants to be more MY deck than a lesbian deck. This is becoming more evident the more I work on it. When I encounter something out of my experience, I default to stereotype, and only realize it later -- or I'll start sketching something without thinking and have to stop and erase it because it has nothing to do with the theme (not just odd elements, but personal elements, like the weird beasts that show up in my paintings, and the hermaphrodites cropping up everywhere).
TLDR summary: it's starting to develop into more of a personal deck with lesbians in it, than a quantifiable Lesbian Tarot. I'm not sure what to do about that. I want to keep making it and sharing it, and let it bloom into the thing it's implying it's capable of doing, but if I let all the beasts and personal things roam around in it, it won't be the deck folks are expecting. Or even much related to the theme. I'm torn -- I don't want to disappoint anyone who was really excited about the deck as it was promised.
I'm going to keep thinking hard about this as I continue with the deck, and see what appears in the sketches. If it's going to be artistically painful for me to cut the personal elements from the deck, I'm obviously not going to torture myself, because I know that won't make a good deck -- even if it sticks to the theme, it won't be a labor of love. The last thing I want is a deck with a good theme and good art but a hollow core! I'd love to be an artist on a project creating a realistic lesbian tarot, but I'm not sure if being the designer is cut out for me. The place this deck wants to go is just too far over the wall to fit the mold!
Again, I'm sorry if this unfortunate development disappoints anyone; I know I disappointed people before when I had to stop producing the Lazy Afternoon deck I was working on, and I really hate to keep up awkward habits. I'm definitely going to keep making a deck... but whether it's the one people will hoping for or not is up in the air. :(
I think the best thing you can possibly do is produce your deck and disregard what others think. This is your deck, for you and by you - and if your passion and inspiration is great enough - you'll carry the rest of us along with you...... :heart:
Given that this will be a FIRST - I think you need as many cards with images as possible - which takes you to WCS or Thoth - TdM would be limiting in that sense, and that would be a shame for something so ambitious. Good luck.
And just because you are the only lesbian you know does not mean you lack vision. And goodness knows you will get input from lesbians here (and from noisy others !!!)
@Cat:
* The ladies on the Wheel are really amorphous placeholders at the moment. A general comment at your concern with cartoon-y hair is that the hair is, again, a placeholder -- any hair that shows up in the final work will be a lot more realistic for sure! (Same with the oak leaves; they'll definitely look like oak leaves when I'm done with them.)
Thanks for explaining, I'll keep it in mind for my feedback on future sketches. :) I just thought I'd mention it because you never know what parts of a sketch are placeholders and which are meant to stay as they are.
* The cloak is a great idea! I knew there was something behind her, so I assumed hair. I just changed it in the sketchbook and it looks better already.
Glad my suggestion was helpful!
* The Devil's fake-looking breasts were definitely intentional. I was riffing on the idea of the Devil as representing illusion -- false ideals of beauty and the like.
I suspected something along these lines, so it makes sense to me. Again, I asked to make sure instead of just assuming. :)
@ Both Cat and Celice:
The lesbian theme is giving me hangups, so I'm not surprised that others noticed it. Mostly, it's my doubts that I'm the right person to make this deck -- my primary reason is that I am literally the only lesbian I know. Even the local gay pride parade is mostly male. I know next to nothing about the spectrum of real lesbians, especially the lesbian culture; I'm going on my own experience and books, neither of which are necessarily good models for a realistic deck.
This isn't necessarily a bad thing. :) At least you won't be influenced too much by a local lesbian community and its standards that way...
You also don't need lesbians to get female faces and bodies right (in terms of realness and believability, not necessarily in terms of anatomic correctness), although hair and clothing MAY be difficult if you want to represent certain "lesbian" styles but haven't seen them yourself (by "lesbian styles" I mean certain appearances that have become stereotypes within lesbian communities/cultures - hard to explain, but I hope you still know what I mean).
When I encounter something out of my experience, I default to stereotype, and only realize it later -- or I'll start sketching something without thinking and have to stop and erase it because it has nothing to do with the theme (not just odd elements, but personal elements, like the weird beasts that show up in my paintings, and the hermaphrodites cropping up everywhere).
Hey, at least you realize it when you hit the stereotypes and can then decide if they work for you or if you need to create something else instead!
TLDR summary: it's starting to develop into more of a personal deck with lesbians in it, than a quantifiable Lesbian Tarot. I'm not sure what to do about that. I want to keep making it and sharing it, and let it bloom into the thing it's implying it's capable of doing, but if I let all the beasts and personal things roam around in it, it won't be the deck folks are expecting. Or even much related to the theme. I'm torn -- I don't want to disappoint anyone who was really excited about the deck as it was promised.
Just make your own deck, and bring on the beasts and hermaphrodites (in whatever shape). :) If the deck has a noticeable lesbian influence in the end, fine, if it ends up as something else entirely, that's also fine.
I might argue differently if we were paying you to make The Lesbian Tarot for us - but since we're not, I certainly won't start to tell you what to draw. All I can do in a thread like this is throw out my impressions/suggestions/thoughts/questions and hope there is something useful for you in there.
I'm going to keep thinking hard about this as I continue with the deck, and see what appears in the sketches. If it's going to be artistically painful for me to cut the personal elements from the deck, I'm obviously not going to torture myself, because I know that won't make a good deck -- even if it sticks to the theme, it won't be a labor of love. The last thing I want is a deck with a good theme and good art but a hollow core! I'd love to be an artist on a project creating a realistic lesbian tarot, but I'm not sure if being the designer is cut out for me. The place this deck wants to go is just too far over the wall to fit the mold!
Again, I'm sorry if this unfortunate development disappoints anyone; I know I disappointed people before when I had to stop producing the Lazy Afternoon deck I was working on, and I really hate to keep up awkward habits. I'm definitely going to keep making a deck... but whether it's the one people will hoping for or not is up in the air. :(
No matter what has been discussed (and wished for) earlier, this remains YOUR project. If you find that "The Lesbian Tarot" is not what you want to create at this time, but that you'd rather make "A Tarot That Is Many Things, Including Lesbian," that's fine.
Just keep drawing! :)
So far, the deck keeps startling me with things it demands me to include, things that aren't a part of a lesbian theme at all, which makes me wonder if it wants to be more MY deck than a lesbian deck. This is becoming more evident the more I work on it. When I encounter something out of my experience, I default to stereotype, and only realize it later -- or I'll start sketching something without thinking and have to stop and erase it because it has nothing to do with the theme (not just odd elements, but personal elements, like the weird beasts that show up in my paintings, and the hermaphrodites cropping up everywhere).
Ok weird beasts, personal imagery, and hermaphrodites actually strike me as a more visually interesting deck that explores your artistic vision. I think it would be better to make YOUR deck, and if there are lesbian elements in it that is also a reflection of your art and personal experience making its way into the deck. I think that would be the best thing rather than relying on stereotypes to fit your deck into a mold other people are looking for.
Alamaris
26-02-2010, 05:09
Thank you all for your kind words and encouragement! Cat*, when I get some time, I'll be replying to some of your awesome questions. (I love questions. :P)
While I give some heavy thought to where the project is going to go, I'm putting the sketchbook aside for the weekend and finishing up my Minute-tarot-inspired deck, the Lazy Afternoon. I hope to have it done by Monday so I can get back in the swing of the bigger project! Anyone interested in simpler, more cartoon-y artwork (like finished sketches, really, rather than finished "pieces") can check out the Lazy Afternoon thread.
Until early next week, take care! :love:
Gah..I want more! I especially like the Devil. /crosses fingers for more posts soon/
The tarot universe cries out for a lesbian deck so I am thrilled you are taking it up (and yay for the inclusion of the butch ladies).
I love that death card the most of the ones you have so far, very powerful. It reminds me ever so slightly of the lesbian subplot cut from the film "Love Actually" and the scenes where one woman cares for her partner in the last stages of breast cancer.
Mostly, it's my doubts that I'm the right person to make this deck -- my primary reason is that I am literally the only lesbian I know.
Maybe this deck will be a key to creating more contact with the lesbian community for you. I don't think you should doubt yourself so early on based on that. I know you don't have access to the community as much yet but there is a really great body of lesbian cinema out there that might help. High Art, Better than Chocolate, Imagine Me and You, Kissing Jessica Stein, But I'm a Cheerleader, Desert Hearts, Fried Green Tomatoes, and.... there is one about women wanting to learn the Kabbala that has a lesbian theme... and I just can't remember it but that sounds like it would be great for tarot inspiration.
I'm notorious for always wanting to change people's titles but what do you think of "Tarot Sappho"?
Looking forward to this deck.