View Full Version : The Old Man in the Ten of Pentacles
Two of Wands
23-04-2003, 19:49
Hi,
I've been studying Tarot since 1998. I know, recognise and understand the Ten of Pentacles, but it is only recently that I have ever aquired a Rider Waite Deck - and I do not have any books specifically written for this deck.
I have spent a really interesting evening analysing the imagery of the Ten of Pentacles of all my Decks.
The question I want to ask is: who is the old man in the foreground of the Rider Waite card?
1. Is there anything written on this - and upon what the context of this picture is?
2. What are your thoughts and views and how do you read it?
It's a very interesting picture!
Rachel Pollack, in her book 78 Degrees of Wisdom, expresses the idea that the old man in the RWS 10 of Pentacles is Odysseus, home from the wars; only his dog recognizes him.
Rusty Neon
23-04-2003, 22:11
The Rider deck illustrates divinatory meanings from various sources, including traditional (pre-GD) meanings and Golden Dawn meanings. In this regard, here are some other ideas regarding the significance of the old man in the RWS Ten of Pentacles:
(1) In a LoScarabeo LWB for an unillustrated pips tarot deck, various 'traditional' (read: pre-GD) divinatory meanings. For the Ten of Pentacles, the LWB gives 'comfort, home, family income, inheritance'. Perhaps the old man illustrates the card's DM of 'inheritance' (as he is the one from whom the couple inherits the home).
(2) Interestingly, there is also something in the Golden Dawn's Book 'T' meanings for the 10 of Pentacles that could make sense in this context: 'Old age, slothfulness, great wealth, yet sometimes loss in part, and later heaviness, dullness of mind, yet clever and prosperous in money transactions'.
Two of Wands
24-04-2003, 09:14
Thanks guys, this useful.
I quite like the 'Odysseus theory'. It would fit in quite well with the time when Athena transforms him into an old man as a disguise. Although quite why he'd then turn up in the Ten of Pentacles and what relevance that has I'm not sure.
I see him as the owner of the manse. Odysseus or not, he has the house, the land, the name, the reputation, the money, the factory, the family... whatever worldly stable physical thing or institution the card may refer to. The other figures are family, friends, acquaintances and pets and associates who may come and go.
Two of Wands
24-04-2003, 12:30
You know Rota, I think you're probably very right. I was looking at the card for ages, and it was always the man woman and child, depicted, that I was focusing on. This is because most of my other decks depict a wealthy/happy couple in this card - so my attention was looking for the similar image. But it is the old man that's in the foreground after all.
The way that the younger man is holding his staff/spear in a very form "upright" manner, makes him look as if he is on guard duty in the elder man's court yard - and his wife has dropped by with their child to remind him not to accept anymore overtime this evening - and come home and spend some time with them for a change!
Ok, maybe I'm mad - but the way they are standing really suggests this! :)
Belladonna
25-04-2003, 06:53
The old man in the ten of pentacles is the man who's come to the end of his income generating days (ie. he's in retirement), but he has successfully accrued wealth and property, that will succeed him and be passed down to future generations. His family also represents the physical world of his creation that will live beyond his own life span.
Originally posted by Belladonna
The old man in the ten of pentacles is the man who's come to the end of his income generating days (ie. he's in retirement), but he has successfully accrued wealth and property, that will succeed him and be passed down to future generations. His family also represents the physical world of his creation that will live beyond his own life span.
I agree with Belladonna.
I see this man to be 'The Grandfather' in the family, and in which, the passing of (could be his) inheritance and this is a representation of "family money"
just my 20cents.;)
Cheers
Kazz
:TQC
0_seeker
25-04-2003, 21:04
I'd like to add just a nuance to the old man in the foreground -- how he's always appeared to me. I see him as retired, but also *welcome* -- i.e., the Ten of Pentacles represents the fullness of material well-being, the kind of security that's so all-encompassing that everyone can find a place in it.
It's absolutely true that he's "passing the torch" to the next generation and that he'll inevitably be marginalized; but I like to emphasize the okayness of that dynamic, that it's a natural part of human interaction with the material world. With experience we become less concerned with building and more with giving what we've built to those we love -- but we can still settle comfortably into the background and have faith that we won't be forgotten.
I guess basically I see him as an extension of the younger folk and the boy -- the kind of copia/abundance that makes tradition and inheritance possible by freeing us from material concerns. (Maslow, anyone?) :)) Just some thoughts.
0_seeker
25-04-2003, 21:09
Incidentally, has anyone noticed that the pentacles on the Ten sorta spell "OY"? (That's not instructive, but it's a little fun.)
Originally posted by 0_seeker
...the Ten of Pentacles represents the fullness of material well-being, the kind of security that's so all-encompassing that everyone can find a place in it.
.... With experience we become less concerned with building and more with giving what we've built to those we love -- but we can still settle comfortably into the background and have faith that we won't be forgotten.
0_seeker, thank you! I find this a really helpful and affirming interpretation.
Eve
I think he can be interpreted as a hint to the fact that the 10 is the end of the journey. Of course the 10s all represent the maximum of the development - depicted as rather happy in the pentacles and cups, a bit opposite in the swords and the wands.
But regardless of the picture, the meaning is always (among many other meanings of course) that it is the end - like the end of pain in the 10s or the end of financial growth in the 10d or the end of development in the 10c or the breakdown under ones inner forces like in the 10w. Thus it is the maximum, that cannot be exceeded any more. That can be a pleasure, or it can be frustrating. All 10s bear both side of the coin within themselves - the 10d hints to that other side with the old man.
Just my 2schilling ;)
Phoenix_Down
05-05-2003, 16:46
Looking at the card, I don't see the 10 as being a very positive card...
Pentacles represent material wealth and health... the 10 represents the conlcusion of the suit... The conclusion of wealth is riches. But the conclusion of health is death and old age. This old figure appears to have both. The woman in the background isn't talking to a lover; they are both facing different directions. The fact that he is holding a spear suggest that he is a guard. The woman takes with her a child, suggesting that there is a family line aspect to the card (the old man is probably the woman's father) and she wishes to see him, knowing that his time is coming... this is also suggested by the dogs. They pine for his attention, which he only replies with a stare. To him, everything has become disingenuous and so he simply sits... and waits.
Two of Wands
05-05-2003, 17:25
That's a really interesting theory - and yes I think that the stances of the people in the picture truly suggest something like this. I actually think that this is a far more complex picture than most in the Rider Waite Deck and there really does seem to be some sort of the story behind it.
Phoenix_Down
09-05-2003, 01:20
On second look, it is difficult to see, but the old man is actually petting the dogs, rather than just staring back. It is difficult to see without the recoloring, as his hand is so red that it blends in with the background. He still seems disgruntled however... =/
paradoxx
14-05-2003, 17:52
I like the odeyssius theory, very telling.
However, the Man can also be the Hermit from card 9, the Dog from the fool card, and the family from teh 10 of cups. All of this identifies with the 10 of pentacles meaning, the coming together of important aspects to create a larger whole or a larger picture.
Little Baron
18-06-2003, 06:23
Hi everyone
Very interesting thread.
I have been pulling a card each day to try and get to grips with this deck and today, the 10 of pentacles is the one.
I have read everybodys views on this card and especially, on the old man that sits in the foreground. I have learnt from studying this deck to never take any of the images for granted and also that there is a lot more within the 'stories' than you may see at first glance. I was especially interested in the threads that spoke of the skull on a cup (7 of cups) and the two faces on the girl (6 of cups). I had not noticed either of those details ... but from now on, as I study, I am keeping my eyes peeled! For example, I could see the old man staring at the dogs but it was not until someone here observed that he was actually petting them that I looked closer and could see that he is.
Now forgive me if my observation here is silly - maybe I have just misinterpreted what you have all been saying or possibly my eye sight is on its way out. From what everyone has said, I got the impression there were four figures in this card - the old man, the younger man, the woman and the child. Obviously, there are also the two dogs. Have I got that correct?
The reason I say this is as follows - when I looked at the staff/spear that was being held, I could not see it being held by the young man as it seemed too detatched and far away. It is also too far away for the old man to be holding it. Someone said here that the man that the woman was talking to was possibly not her husband/lover and just a guard.
If you look at what I think people are referring to as the arm holding the spear, in my eyes, this is a fifth person - the real guard. He is dressed in black and is leaning against the pillar of the arch. The spear is resting over his shoulder and it's tip touches the arch behind him. His head is dropped forward. He has quite long hair but on top, he is bald. Did everyone else see this already? Am I repeating the obvious? If so, I apologise, but if not, I hope I have shed just a little light on what seems to be a very complex card.
My other observations of this card are the pictures on the wall to the left. What are these? Is there anything written to tell the meanings of these images as I would be most interested? They must be there for a reason. My first thoughts (as a Rider Waite novice) is that the bottom one reminds me of a set of scales - maybe indicating a balance). To it's left, I can not make out the image, even though it does remind me of the castle (adventure) that erupts from the cup in the 7 of cups. I can see that the last image at the top is of a castle. Is it the castle in which this scene is based.
I hope that this thread continues, since I have enjoyed looking into this card very much and would be very interested to hear other peoples views and knowledge.
Best wishes to you all
Yaboot
Little Baron
18-06-2003, 09:18
Just a small point to add ...
I have been looking at this card from the 'universal waite' deck and my findings of the fifth person do not exist there; only in the original 'Rider Waite' deck. What appears to be a person in the RW has become a cuff in the UW. I even asked my mother to get her reading glasses and take a look at the two cards. She could see the figure in the first but not in the latter.
Just thought I would mention that incase you were looking at your UW and wonderered what I was talking about.
Best wishes
yaboot
Ruby Red Slippers
18-06-2003, 18:28
Thank you for the interesting thread :)
My take on this card is a little different in that I see the 10 as a new beginning, not an end. (I see the 9 as compeletion).
Therefore, I see this card as the view of the world from both sides. I consider the "old man" as having crossed over/died in the material world and that is why no one but the dogs seem to be aware of him. I believe that dogs see spirit. The child also seems to see the dog, or at least, is aware of him. There again, I believe that children are more open to "seeing" what adults have closed off for themselves.
I also think that it is not only the "material" in the sense of worldly goods reflected in the card but the continuation of "family" through memories, values, traits that is depicted here. I believe it can also be reflected of the family/community as a whole/the world, traditions, bias, cultures in some readings.
I think the pomegranates and oak leaves on the old man side represent prolific energy and wisdom. The castle, ships and tower could be representative all the things that goes through in a mortal life.
Ruby Red Slippers
I just picked this card for a question of when will I get a new job? Confused. BUT anyway I noticed going through here no one mentioned the Tree of Life made with the 10 coins.They coins show this. Does anyone know what it means on this card? ( I don't)
Also does anyone use this card as a move card. I had a reader tell me once that when this card is up you'll be moving. I just thought about it as inheritance & family etc. you know the rest.
Cerulean
10-01-2004, 17:58
"A man and woman beneath an archway, which gives entrance to a house and domain. They are accompanied by a child., who looks curiously at two dogs accosting an ancient personage seated in the foreground. The child's hand is on one of them. Divinatory meanings: Gain, riches, family matter, archives, extraction, the abode of a family. Reverse: chance, fatality, loss, robbery, games of hazard, sometimes gift, dowry, pension."
Pictorial Key to the Tarot, Arthur Waite. There's a free site that lists all the meanings as well from the Pictorial Key.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/tarot/pkt/index.htm
I've been carrying around the Pictorial Key and the Universal Tarots (mignion size) by Roberto De Angelis and in this version, one grayhound is nearer to the child and is looking to the child's left, outside the card. The other dog is a grayhound and looks friendly and curiously at the old man, who is well-covered with a nice cloak and blanket.
Here to me is a family on a beautiful day and the child and dogs add a family note. The old man's comfortable and quiet sitting shows he is at peace in a rich household. The citadal and buildings beyond can be the entrance beyond to a pleasant town or a nice family courtyard. The woman and child can either be going or coming home and the young man could be part of their pairing or with the old man. The dogs seem to be friendly and part of this domestic scene.
In the Pictorial Key to the Tarot's depiction, the old man's cloak has either the pomegranates of the High Priestess or the grapes and leaves in the King of Pentacles. The suit descriptions begin with the King of the Suit and go down to 10 to the Ace.
It may be the end of the road, where "they lived happily to the end of their days" or it may be a fruitful dream of generations living close together. Wherever this world is, I like the card.
0_seeker
10-01-2004, 19:08
Ros, did you draw this card in isolation or as part of a larger spread? If the latter, for what position?
I've always thought of the younger couple as circling/orbiting each other, rather than disconnected or facing off. They recall the Three of Cups, in which we see fullness/completion of another kind -- very strong and very "tight" (three being the least number necessary to create an enclosed space), as opposed to the "looseness" of material abundance (which seems less...controllable?). The Ten feels close, claustrophobic: lots of "stuff", though not necessarily in a bad way. The old man is surrounded by comforts, as if wrapped in a thick blanket -- not at center stage, but definitely cared for.
I tend to make much of the white dogs. I see them as a sort of pure spirit; the people in this image, to me, are not at odds with the material world, but draw strength from it. It's like those birds that are always twittering around Snow White, or the medieval belief that unicorns were attracted to virgin young girls -- that natural spirits are attracted implies purity, a resonance or alignment with natural forces. The dogs are at ease, playful, affectionate, so the scene must be somehow *right*. All the characters form a kind of chain -- young man connects to woman, to child, to dog, to old man, to other dog. (I also tend to think of the child as looking at the aged man, noticing him, including him.)
I like the Odysseus reading and can see it in the R-W rendering, but personally I'd shy away from it. When Odysseus returned home in disguise, he was *uneasy*, not-secure, for his roles as husband and lord were being threatened by a line of persistent suitors. For him, the big battle, in which he eventually expelled the suitors and reclaimed his position, was yet to come. I agree that this card is more about this man than about the younger couple, but I think of it as a card of resting contentedly on the sidelines, letting others continue what's begun. Ten; completion; no more strife, no more plot twists.
To me the dimness of the wall images (skull, &c.) represents the distant past, the world outside the walls, struggles overcome. This is the burden that the old man has already carried. He has created a strong home in which his family can grow in peace and security, and now he can pet the pets and just "relax with his thoughts". The only negative I generally read here is the danger of complacency or insularity -- i.e., things may be good and comfortable within this home, but growth requires adversity, adventure, novelty, discomfort. Basically, a good, warm, secure card, though with the usual caveats about warmth and security.
Wish I could offer some wisdom on the Tree of Life; I pursued the Kabbalah zealously for a while, but I never could connect it with my here-and-now. I'd expect to see the Tree in Swords, rather than in Pentacles, but I suppose rendering it in any other suit would pose logistical problems! :} AEW might say the Tree transcends/exceeds all suits.
Still, I might make one point about it: The discussion of this card has touched several times on the themes of inheritance and transfer, and to me the essence of the Tree is just that kind of *flow*: a shift in focus, or energy/essence moving in a mass among points. Concentration shifts from one space to another -- old man to young couple, young couple to child, sephira to sephira, point A to point B. This may or may not be the origin of your reader's association with relocation, but it does seem to tie the card thematically to the Tree of Life.
Hope this helps! I don't have much experience with this, so I'd be glad to hear thoughts. Best wishes!
Thanks to both replys.
I do have a job & just asked if I'll be getting a new one this year. It was just a one card draw.
I liked the part about the dogs & Snow White, this is new to me but sounds good.
The Tree of Life from the coins & Kabbalah I don't understand & probably means coming or going of another lifetime. We'll see if we can get more replys on this.
O-seeker very good start! IMHO
To me the Tree of Life made out of coins says that this family also enjoys Emotional and Spiritual prosperity.
Along with the material comforts of life, the harmony they live in speaks of something more.
That in order to truly have it all mind,(emotional) body,(material) and spirit (spiritual) need to be satisfied.
I think that is what the scales on the wall are symbolizing. A well balanced life.
Cerulean
10-01-2004, 23:31
I've been comparing my Pictorial Key to the Tarot with various decks with illustrated pips. The keyword on the Tarot of the Stars (Celesta Portal) for the Ten of Pentacles is Origin and it shows a familar Rider Waite scene with a man, woman, gate and old man sitting in front of the portal with two dogs near him.
He usually has some astrological symbolism and little alternative perspectives to any of his scenes, which could be Rider-Waite in style, or include some ornamental details from older decks such as the Mantegna or Milianese decks. Some keywords I pulled out of the blue booklet suggests a harmonious integration stage of earthly material wealth and home, and family.
Tavaglione is an esoteric scholar as well, so in his booklet he mentions numerology significance of ten, kabbalah references and ten Buddhist deities...it takes me awhile to go through even one card of this deck, but I really like the rich blend of correspondences...anyway, it underlined the peaceful feeling of integrated wealth that I got from the other Rider Waite Smith styles of symbolism...so hope this adds a good feeling to the card draw. Thanks for bringing up the old man!
Mari H.
I'm just starting out with Bunning's book and today this card came up.
I don't know if I interpret it all wrong but to me first seemed like the woman was coming to get some advice from the wise old man. The man she was talking to seemed to be a guard and she was asking if she would be allowed to have an audience ;)
The cihild to me represented curiosity towards life and the dogs and the man patting them gentleness. So I thought it was about getting advice and willingness in following it and also curiosity in life and possibly even for me good luck in finding a job!
janstar17
06-06-2004, 17:38
The RWS image on the Ten of Pentacles speaks of material completion to me. Tens do that for me...the completion of the journey begun with the Ace, but also the possibility of a new beginning if we choose.
The old man, wrapped in an elaborately decorated cape or blanket, appears still strong and vital yet content to set in stillness and watch the next generation(s). The pattern of his wrap speaks to me of abundance (grapes, same as the King of Pentacle robes) mixed with what looks to me to be achemical symbols!!
Is he forgotten? Certainly not by the hounds...they see him with different eyes, the eyes of pure feeling. The young couple, just beginning their journey as adults, appear to have eyes only for each other. The young man, back to his elder indicating acceptance of his own independence and destiny; the young woman leans in toward her mate though in such a position she can still make eye contact with the older man. Whether he is an elder male of her own family or not, she would not hesitate to seek his counsel if need be.
The 10 pentacles arranged as an overlay to the scene form the Kabbalistic Tree of Life. To me, that hints at spiritual fulfillment -- perhaps embarking on a path of enlightenment. Maybe now that he has obtained the material success of the earth pentacle (coin) the older man can guiltlessly begin a journey of higher purpose knowing he leaves his "family" with a firm foundation for success themselves.
Sort of a 'my work here is done' kind of card!! :-D
Before I read the posts on the thread, I decided...10 Pents...domestic harmony, security at a material, earthly level
and the older man outside the gates, almost like a "grandfather" looking over his "family" or "community.
I don't see the dogs as accosting him...as in Waite's definition. I see him as dogs he knows...He seems to be petting one.
There is always a tinge of sadness when this card comes up for me, since we see his back, but we see the others facing us...as if his back to us, tells us he is leaving this plane soon. His garments are quite richly adorned...so even with all one's material needs met, growing older and facing the fianl frontier has a bittersweet quality about it.
Silvie Simon says the card has been dubbed the lord of wealth...It signals great success in financial matters but also wisdom and good fortune....Thanks to the influence of Mercury, courage allied with presence of mind leads to great understanding. And if one stays vigilant, this properity will last.
But I still see a bittersweet quality to the man whenever I see the card...perhaps because I am aging and have the kind of security in the earthly plane that was so elusive when I was growing up in a very "cash poor" household during WWII. It has been a long road of learning and work for me and I am grateful for all I have as I "survey" my own holdings and family....but I am entering the last phase of my life...it's a kind of peaceful sadness.
terri
I’m glad Vincent posted what he did. I think it’s an important point in understanding this card. For the sake of clarification I’m going to try an give an extremely simplified version of how Qabalah pertains to this card.
Qabalah is essentially a model of creation-- a step-by-step process illuminating the Divine plan as it unfolds itself in our world. Cabalists believe that God/Divine Power created the material world through a series of ten emanations (sephiroth), each one flowing from the next. These sephiroth are usually depicted as spheres connected by twenty-two pathways (each one corresponding to a major arcana card) in a diagram called the Tree of Life. The energy of creation moves from Kether (pure divine energy), sephirah one, down the Tree to Malkuth (our material world), sephirah ten. Part of the idea behind the tarot is that while creation flows down the tree, we can travel back up the tree and reunite with the divine.
Qabalistic theory also depicts the universe as being separated into four different worlds—with each world coming into being from the world before it (in some models this is pictured as an extended tree). The highest of the four Qabalistic worlds is Atziluth which corresponds to fire and the suit of wands. The second highest of the four Qabalistic worlds is Briah which corresponds to water and the suit of cups. The second to the lowest Qabalistic world is Yetzirah, which corresponds to air and the suit of Swords. The lowest (and the last one formed) of the four Qabalistic worlds is Assiah, which corresponds to the element of earth and the suit of pentacles. Each of the four worlds contains the 10 sephiroth (a total of 40 sephiroth), each with its own unique quality determined by the element of the world it’s in. These 40 sephiroth correspond to the 40 numbered cards of the Minor Arcana.
So when you say that the ten of pentacles represents Malkuth in Assiah, you are essentially saying that in the journey on the physical plane you have reached the end of the line. You’re at the lowest sphere (number ten) of the lowest Qabalistic world (Assiah)—you’ve reached the most solid point of physical manifestation. There is no place on the tree to go—except back to the beginning. To reincarnate anew as the fool.
An interesting point is that on the RWS card (not on the recolored versions), the old man’s beard is yellow. I can easily imagine him as the RWS golden haired fool in old age.
This is definitely a card of material plenty, perhaps with a warning that we should not forget the importance of spiritual riches as well as material ones. For me it is also a card dealing with the legacies we leave behind—material as well as spiritual.
Rose
Thank you, Vincent and Rose...there it is ...right in front of my nose....The Tree of Life in the RW Ten Pentacles!
The pentacle hovering over the old man's back, (I am just beginning to explore the Sephiroth...) would correspond, position-wise to Hod (Splendor or Glory)..the number 8...the sphere of Mercury and therefore, intellect....If Netzach, Force is the Seventh Sephirah and Hod brings forth the forms within Netzach, the rational intelligence is showing itself to human consciousness...nature animating living beings.
This is such a wonderfully , clear image of the Sephiroth in this card.
Vincent ...don't know about the checkerboard or designs on the left column.
Now that I see the Tree of Life, I also see that the people under the arch seem to not notice the Tree...complaisance in one's earthly security?
terri
I had some notes on the symbols on this card at home--so straight from my notes:
Checkerboard—This pattern of geometrical shapes is a representation of the material world, woven from light and darkness. It can symbolize the conflict situation between opposing forces within both the physical world and the human individual. The checkerboard symbolizes the arena in which the conflicts and battles take place (Like a chess game).
Archway—Archways are related to the twofold symbolism of the square (the symbol of physical reality) and the circle (a symbol of heaven and eternity). It represents a triumph over the trivialities of life. As a portal it may represent the concept of being born again, a new beginning with fresh insights.
The buildings and wall beyond the archway may represent the worldly concerns which the old man has left behind. He has passed through the archway to a higher spiritual state.
Scales on shield—may relate to the Justice card and represent Karma and/or the measure of the old man’s actions in life. We must accept the ‘justice’ of our lives, what we are we have made ourselves.
Towers on the shields may relate back to the Major Arcana cards—There are two towers in the Death Card and the Moon Card and a single tower on the Tower Card. The towers in the Death and Moon card can be read as gateways from one place to another, but, more importantly, from one state of mind or attitude to another. The single tower on the Tower Card represents our ego and the structures we build. Perhaps the towers on the shields represent the old man’s spiritual journey and the wisdom he has acquired.
The grapes—on his coat symbolize harvest and abundance. (Note: It’s interesting that the female on the Devil Card has a tail of grapes signifying enslavement to materialism and/or misuse of pleasure). Maybe the grapes here signify yet another lesson that he has learned.
The magic symbols—on his coat (and his age) perhaps identify him with the Wise Old Man archetype. In stories the Wise Old Man is a mentor who gives good advice and often helps the young hero with his spiritual growth.
His yellow beard, (found in the original RWS deck), may identify him with the Fool at the end of his journey.
Perhaps the wand, held by the young man, is part of the legacy the old man has passed on.
At its simplest level the pentacles in the shape of the Kabbalistic Tree of Life may signify the importance of not forgetting spiritual growth in the midst of material abundance.
Rose