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DarkElectric
09-03-2010, 01:36
Hi everybody,
I have a question concerning the Mars retrograde, that we'll be out of soon, but for me, not soon enough.

I admit, Astrology is my weakest point.
I have been wondering why there's been so much lack of forward motion. Especially in a relationship which is of long standing, seemingly moved to the "next phase" on Dec 20, 2009, but has lost considerable steam and energy, and in very frustrating ways.

I knew nothing about the Mars retrograde. Until today. As I said, Astrology is my weak point. I understand Mercury retrograde, but not Mars, or any of the others, so you can imagine my surprise when I noticed in my day planner that the symbol for Mars had a capital "D" after it, for March 10. I looked it up, and woe to me, all the effects I've been feeling lately were described in doomful detail. :eek:

Here's the scoop: Plans are in the works to "actualise" this relationship. Currently it's LDR, but that was supposed to change. I was supposed to be moving, hitting the road at the end of April and arriving at my destination May 1 ( 2010). I say supposed to, because all sorts of weird snags and strange delays have occurred, and now I'm getting the distinct impression that this whole things might be going....nowhere.

So this is my question: Do extant relationships survive Mars retrogrades if plans to move them forward are made, or will the plans regain their vigour after Mars stations on the 10th, and things start moving forward again? Will everything just fizzle, and I'll be left with a handful of the dust of dead dreams, and single twice over? (I left an unsatisfactory marriage to be with this man.) Or can we salvage our plan, and get on with our together-ness?

And how do I repair the damage done to the relationship due to impatience, frustration, and building internal anger that things aren't "On the go as planned"? It seems as if he's been dragging his feet, and malingering. I've been affected negatively by this, I'm reconsidering the whole thing now too, but I don't want to. What the hay? What is this strange Mars Retro beast?

I asked him if he's having second thoughts about all of this, that was 2 weeks ago, he gave me an unequivocal "No". But now there's all this wimpy weirdness. We'll both be experiencing major changes in our lives to be together, but now it seems to me like he's chickening out. I've also done some personal backsliding in the area of coping strategies, and there's a general sense of both of us "running away from issues" in the ways we used to find effective, but now only botch things up even more.

And during this time he's started on some nasty anti-depressants, which aren't working to stop his depression, it's actually made it worse, and also...there's an unwelcome "side effect" concerning libido, which is tantamount to chemical castration. :mad: :mad: :mad:

Can anyone offer me some advice, or suggestions to assist me in dealing with this?
Our natal signs:
He, Gemini. Me, Scorpio.
If anyone wants more detail than this, I can offer that information in PM. Thanks, I appreciate.

Minderwiz
09-03-2010, 07:26
The short answer to your question is : YES, extant relationships can and do survive Mars going retrograde, otherwise the divorce rate and split up rate would be horrendous, with no relationship lasting more than a couple of years.

Of course there are splits and divorces but even at worst, Mars would play a relatively small role - there would already be some predisposition to break up.

It's very difficult to be more precise, as we don't have any birth details and even with them there's a large workload for anyone going down the synastry route. An easier route would be to ask a horary question - similar to asking a tarot question - and using that to answer your worries. Given your worries about Mars, I'd leave that for a few days at least, even if you decide to go down that route.

DarkElectric
09-03-2010, 22:07
Thanks Minderwiz,

This whole thing's been making me nervous because there are a lot of issues concerning all this. Yesterday we spoke, and now the plan is that I move up my departure and anticipate leaving here on March 28, which is a month earlier than the original departure date.
I just don't want this whole thing to turn into a disaster. :eek:

Minderwiz
10-03-2010, 00:01
The more I think about this, the more it seems to me that Mars isn't really the main issue here, your concerns are more concerned with the relationship and your joint plans to progress it. A horary reading seems the best route from an Astrological perspective. The important thing is to think carefully about what your 'real' question actually is, as the main problem with horaries is not asking the question that really is the one at the core of concern, for example there is a real difference between 'Does he love me?' and 'Will he marry me?', or even 'Will our wedding ceremony go smoothly?'

In the vast majority of cases it's probable that the answer to all three is 'Yes' but if you think about it it is not necessarily the case that 'Yes' to one entails 'Yes' to the others (or indeed any other relationship question). Work out the question that you really want answering and then we'll try a horary.

Venusian
11-03-2010, 15:29
I know that this is off subject a bit, but I am SOOOO happy that Mars is finally direct!!! I COULD NOT be happier!

DevilishAngel
12-03-2010, 01:30
I know that this is off subject a bit, but I am SOOOO happy that Mars is finally direct!!! I COULD NOT be happier!
So with Mars direct should things that were kinda stuck get moving now?

DarkElectric
12-03-2010, 19:17
The more I think about this, the more it seems to me that Mars isn't really the main issue here, your concerns are more concerned with the relationship and your joint plans to progress it. A horary reading seems the best route from an Astrological perspective. The important thing is to think carefully about what your 'real' question actually is, as the main problem with horaries is not asking the question that really is the one at the core of concern, for example there is a real difference between 'Does he love me?' and 'Will he marry me?', or even 'Will our wedding ceremony go smoothly?'

In the vast majority of cases it's probable that the answer to all three is 'Yes' but if you think about it it is not necessarily the case that 'Yes' to one entails 'Yes' to the others (or indeed any other relationship question). Work out the question that you really want answering and then we'll try a horary.


The real question...there's the rub. I have so many, actually. It's not improbable that the questions I have rummaging around in my mind answer themselves, and perhaps I'm reluctant to look at the truth of what I'm seeing.
If I were to toss out a peremptory question, it would be- "What important details are being concealed from me about the nature of this relationship, and his true motives concerning me?"
If that's not the best sort of question to ask for a horary, I can amend it.

Minderwiz
12-03-2010, 20:58
Ler me just check that I understand and have the importance of your question by paraphrasing:

Is he concealing anything, both in terms of details and motives, about the relationship?

If that is a fair summary which does not distort your question then I'll cast a chart for the moment that you reply 'Yes' (To be completely sure please include the local time, giving any time zone, at the time that you post). Whilst I'll cast the chart for the moment I read and understand the question, knowing when you asked helps.

If I am oversimplifying or have missed an important element to what you need to know then please correct the question as I have phrased it. When I'm satisfied that I understand your question I'll cast the chart.

DarkElectric
14-03-2010, 08:42
Ler me just check that I understand and have the importance of your question by paraphrasing:

Is he concealing anything, both in terms of details and motives, about the relationship?

If that is a fair summary which does not distort your question then I'll cast a chart for the moment that you reply 'Yes' (To be completely sure please include the local time, giving any time zone, at the time that you post). Whilst I'll cast the chart for the moment I read and understand the question, knowing when you asked helps.

If I am oversimplifying or have missed an important element to what you need to know then please correct the question as I have phrased it. When I'm satisfied that I understand your question I'll cast the chart.

Yes. I'd like to determine his true motives concerning me, and this relationship. I know what he's said, and I'd like to believe him wholeheartedly, but I'm an old bird now, the wide eyed ingenue has learned to look a bit deeper when someone professes undying love. Especially when we both have some baggage. He is also planning on leaving an unhappy marriage to be with me. Which is where the problem comes in. He has issues in his situation which simply didn't exist in mine. I have a much easier time of picking up and going. In his case, there's a child involved. This is why I'm concerned about concealment of details and motivation. So, Yes, that's a fair summary of my question, because if he's not being truthful to me about how he really feels about me, and the relationship, it'll all come out in the chart I think. And the wash, but I'm hoping to avoid that.

Yes:Saturday, 13 March 4:38 PM Eastern Standard Time,(where I am) which equals 1:38 PM Pacific, (where he is) USA.

Thanks, Minderwiz, I do appreciate. Is there anything I can exchange to you for this? I'd be very happy to give a tarot reading in return if you'd like. :)

Minderwiz
14-03-2010, 23:26
I've cast the chart (see attachment). It is cast for my own location (Standish in England) and for the time I understood the question (much helped by your information about the child). The chart uses Regiomontanus cusps (as used by most Horary Astrologers).

Comments:

You, as querent take the the first house, and as this is located in Gemini, you are signified by its ruler Mercury.with the Moon as co-significator (standard practice in horaries). The Ascendant at 26 degrees 28 minutes is late in the sign - indicating that you have left things late here, almost too late.

He is signified by Lord 7, which with Sagittarius on the cusp is Jupiter.

If we look at the Chart we can see that Mercury (you) is in the eleventh House in Pisces (the sign of Jupiter) so we can conclude that you love him (or at the very least are interested in making the relationship work). Mercury is conjunct the Sun and this would usually rob it of much of its power to act, however it is actually within 7 minutes of the Sun and this is a position of great power (called Cazimi). The eleventh is a good house placement and Mercury squares the Ascendant (which is much better than no contact at all), Lastly it is swift in motion (also very positive). on the downside, Mercury is in the sign of it's own detriment and is peregrine (has no other essential dignity). Although you are well placed in the situation, you don't seem to have an awful lot of power to act, you may simply be swept along, if you do not use the situational power to take a long hard look.

Let's look at him. Jupiter is in Pisces (it's own sign) He has a lot of essential dignity, he is also placed within the tenth House, but virtually on the cusp of the eleventh and most Astrologers would consider him eleventh house. This is not a bad position. Jupiter is also oriental of the Sun and therefore strengthened (as it is falling behind the Sun in the zodiac and so moving away from combustion). Jupiter is also in a closing conjunction with the Moon (your other significator). He appears to be an honest and decent man. However your question is has he other motives/interests besides you.

Jupiter is in none of the dignities of Mercury - that would suggest that at this moment his interest is not primarily (or even at all?) concerned with you.

You mentioned a child that is involved on his side. The eleventh house is the fifth house from the seventh - it is the house of his child. He sits on the eleventh cusp.

I looked for a planet to signify the child in order to see what it's role is. As the eleventh cusp is in Pisces, Jupiter would be the obvious choice. However I have assigned Jupiter to him. The next step would be to look at the Almuten (planet with the most essential dignity) of the eleventh cusp. The answer is Jupiter again. So the next step is to look for any planets in the eleventh. There are three. Mercury (which is your significator), The Sun and Venus. The Sun and Mercury are conjoined (and as you are not physically with his child, that rules out the Sun). That leaves Venus.

Lets then use Venus as the significator of the child. Venus is Aries but that is not important here - Venus is exalted in Pisces (the sign of the eleventh cusp) So Jupiter, on the cusp is in the exaltation of Venus. Using the essential dignities we can begin to construct his motives and interests:

Rulership - Jupiter (himself)
Exaltation - Venus (the child)
Triplicity - Mars and Venus by day (Child again)
Terms - Jupiter (himself)
Face - Jupiter (himself)

So his concerns and interests at the moment are for himself and the child. Perhaps even worse, Pisces is the detriment of Mercury - if you take him away from the child at this time, he will end up hating you for it. Perhaps that will take some time to come through but it is very likely to happen.

Looking at the chart we can see that as Mercury is further on in the zodiac than Jupiter (it is in a higher degree of Pisces) and Mercury is a faster planet, we get the picture that you are actually moving away from him - I think that mirrors the concerns you have expressed.

Is there a future for the relationship? One possibility might have been the position of the Moon. The Moon will conjoin Jupiter as it's next aspect and it will then move on towards the next planet in line, which is Mercury. If it reaches Mercuy before making an aspect to another planet it will 'translate' the light and the relationship will be succesfully concluded. However by the time the Moon has passed Jupiter, Mercury will have moved beyond the Sun and the Sun will prohibit that translation.

What should you do?

If this relationship is ever to work the issue of the child must be settled clearly and he must be happy and content with it. You have little time left but if you can (and you may not be able to help yourself) delay things till the issue of the child is sorted.

He seems a decent man and you may well have a future together but don't allow the child to come between you. I would guess that if he were forced to choose between you now, he will choose the child, especially if your planned new home is a significant distance away.

Help him or simply allow him to get that sorted and then perhaps the relationship can prosper.

Just one question, how influential or powerful is his mother or is his job (assuming he might have to give that up to relocate)? The Sun is the fourth house ruler (your home and family) but his tenth (career and mother). From what you say I don't see your 'side' causing a problem but his might.

Edited to add:

If it were not for your information relating to the child, I might well have suspected another woman (5th House is also the house of Romance) but given Jupiter's dignity the child seems to make more sense here.

DarkElectric
15-03-2010, 02:42
Wow, Minderwiz, that's an amazing reading...

Ok, to answer some of your questions and explain a bit further-

There is another woman. She's the problem. The "hopefully soon to be gone" wife.
He hasn't left her yet. He's supposed to be doing that March 29th.
To be with me. That's the plan.

I don't know much about her, he doesn't tell me a lot, but I do know that her sun is in Pisces, as far as I know Pisces and Geminii aren't that great of a match anyway, but as you know my knowledge is limited. She is not only clingy and controlling (as well as prone to anger issues and hysterical outbursts when she thinks she won't be getting her own way,) but makes most of the money. She has encouraged him to get out of the workforce and be a "househusband", but then criticises everything he does, and has nagged him into ill health, guilt, and weakness. She's a bully. He's scared of her. He tells me she's vindictive, he wishes he'd never married her in the first place, but he adores his daughter.

His biggest fear is that his daughter isn't strong enough emotionally to handle mum's bullying, but that's subsiding as the girl grows up. The daughter is Scorpio too, her birthday is 3 days after mine. :) This bullywife has manipulated his life to the point where he's financially dependent on her, and she has stressed him into ill health so he needs health insurance, and would have difficulty getting it on his own because he has "pre existing conditions" now. He's worried he won't be able to get coverage, but that's fear talking. When he gets together with me, I know his health will improve simply because the stress will go down. I know I'm a healthier person, with a healthier outlook on life. It's one of the things he loves about me.

I will be the one relocating. He won't be giving up his job, or the little girl. He has told me that he wants me to be her stepmother, that I'd make a very good stepmother, and that he sees me as someone who will be a positive influence on his daughter.

I am moving house 3000 miles to be with this man, so he can be close to his daughter. My career will allow me to do this, in fact, it might boost it because there's more opportunity for me there. He wants me to be involved in his daughter's life, and to be honest, I would love that more than anything, I'm unable to have children due to medical issues.

I just want him to be able to break the cycle of fear and abuse ( yes, she abuses him, he's embarrassed about that.) and he claims that he's ready to flee, but I know he's terrified of how badly bullywife might react to being told she's "out". I personally am not afraid of her in the least. I know how to handle bullies. The marriage I just left ended because my ex husband decided to let his inner bully run wild and free after we were married, and I told him to hit the road. I won't tolerate tyranny.

Does this information help to clarify things?

Minderwiz
15-03-2010, 04:03
When I said 'other woman' I meant someone else, distinct from you and his wife. With the focus of activity in Pisces and his daughter having a Pisces connection, it's more likely that it's the daughter that is his motive/interest.

However:

The chart shows that his interests/motivation is not with you at the moment, so you do have to stop and think a little before acting.

Other issues you might consider,

Is he simply manipulating you to have someone to evict his wife because he can't do it himself?

What will be the effect on his daughter if a complete stranger arrives and evicts her mother (assuming you are successful and he doesn't cave in to more bullying)?

I can see your motivation but please be careful in this situation.

Astraea
15-03-2010, 05:17
Hello, Dark Electric. As a fellow student of traditional approaches to horary astrology, and since this is a public forum and presumably you won't feel I'm intruding, I'd like to add a couple of comments on this chart.

First of all, I agree entirely with what Minderwiz has written.

In addition, I think that the late degree of the Ascendant indicates that on some deep level, you knew the answer to this question before asking it; indeed, your initial question was not "is he concealing something from me," but "what is he concealing from me?" It seems to me that, even now, you are in the process of acting on what your intuition and gut are telling you, as signified by Mercury (your significator) moving away from Jupiter (his significator). I think it is possible that the chart is guiding you toward listening closely to yourself, and perhaps allowing that distancing movement to follow its natural course.

The fact that Jupiter is in his own sign signifies that the man has all the power in this relationship, and Mercury - combust the Sun, peregrine and in detriment - is not in a good position to take him on. Jupiter (the man) assumes control over Mercury (you) in the relationship.

Mercury is in the 11th house of hopes and wishes, which is a caution about indulging in wishful thinking. Jupiter in Pisces straddling the 11th cusp indicates to me that the man might feel an intense sense of entitlement in this relationship, and might even be seeking someone to take care of him and remove him from a bad situation. He might not be a bad sort, and probably isn't, but the point for me is that he is calling the shots and his responses to you are overshadowed by the strength of his own needs; there is no reciprocity here, and while this might not constitute actual deceit, in practical terms it amounts to the same thing.

Jupiter in Pisces can be unaware of his own motives, acting the naif - this fellow could end up needing as much tending as the child. He might well have designated you as a savior figure, and you could spend a great deal of time, energy and other resources attempting to rescue him.

I agree with Minderwiz that this man's mother - or relationship to the mothering principle - poses subterranean threats to his relationship with you.

It would be in your best interest to move cautiously, assessing all aspects of the relationship in great detail and with as much objectivity as you can muster.

Toward the end of next week, Mercury will have left Pisces and will oppose Saturn - it seems to me that a fateful decision will be called for at that time.

Best wishes as you go forward in your deliberative process - decisions of this kind aren't easy, I know.

DarkElectric
15-03-2010, 09:35
Hello Astrea, I appreciate your input, and I most certainly do not think you're intruding. Thank you for your response, I greatly appreciate.

I agree that perhaps he's unaware of his own motives. The "fateful decision" I think will be him telling her that they're through, and that he wants a divorce. This is supposed to happen on March 27 or 28. Will Mercury still be opposing Saturn at that time, and if it is, what does it mean?

I seriously need to start making more of a presence back on the forum again, and especially take notes on the astrology section. What you and Minderwiz have determined by the chart is spot on. I'm gobsmacked at level of detail and description of the situation. It's as if I'm standing in a room outside and looking at the whole thing, going, 'Yes, yes, Oh yes, GOODNESS ME yes, that's familiar.....

DarkElectric
15-03-2010, 09:59
When I said 'other woman' I meant someone else, distinct from you and his wife. With the focus of activity in Pisces and his daughter having a Pisces connection, it's more likely that it's the daughter that is his motive/interest.

However:

The chart shows that his interests/motivation is not with you at the moment, so you do have to stop and think a little before acting.

Other issues you might consider,

Is he simply manipulating you to have someone to evict his wife because he can't do it himself?

What will be the effect on his daughter if a complete stranger arrives and evicts her mother (assuming you are successful and he doesn't cave in to more bullying)?

I can see your motivation but please be careful in this situation.


Thanks Minderwiz, I will be.

I was considering that, the possibility that he was going to 'encourage" me to put the mad cow out to pasture, but he's also told me that he was going to just give up, and try to muddle through his life doing his best to ignore the horrible truth about his dead end situation. But then he met me, and he realised that he wants to be with me instead of she. He's been telling me for 2 years that he wishes he were married to me, instead of she. And now that actually will be, if he takes the initiative and tells she that it's the end of the road for them.

I'm concerned that I'm behaving like a lovesick git in all of this, I hope not.

As far as the other other woman thing, I do believe it's the daughter. His focus is on her, it's all about her, she's an only child and his little princess.
My opinion is that because his marriage is so dead, he's dumped all his emotional needs onto the child, which is in my opinion too much of a responsibility for a 12 year old kid. Not only that, she's growing up fast, and is already wanting her own life, more involved with her friends, her sport, (she swims, and is quite good!) etc, which is as it should be at her age.

I'm sure if I mentioned something like that to him he'd be terribly offended, but I can admit to it here because don't we all know!

I also don't think the girl will resent me ( although I could be wrong) because I think she'll be more than happy to see her father happy for a change, and she's gotten tired of being the referee for their endless arguing. They scream and yell at each other, and it's terrible for the poor girl. She's really getting fed up with it. Drama, drama, drama, shouting and wailing. Dreadful carrying on. Ick.

Also, it will be explained to her, and in great detail, that I will not be replacing her mum in any way. I'm not a replacement at all, I'll be an addition.

She'll have one extra person to love her.

Either way, I'm not going to try to push her into accepting me. I'll let her choose the pace and the nature of our interaction. Many people go overboard trying to impress their new partners child/ren. This doesn't work, and many times scares the kid/s off. I don't want to do that.
She's a nice girl. I'm not a complete stranger to her, actually. Her dad and I met in an MMORPG. The girl had a character too, and she, her dad and I used to team in the game. She absolutely adored me, and put all my characters on her friends list. She used to bug her dad to play, so she could see me in game. She also was the one who told me that his character "liked" my character. I felt as if she were trying to fix our avatars up!
She is a little Scorpio, intensely intuitive. I love her already. :)

Astraea
15-03-2010, 10:06
Mercury leaves Pisces on March 18-19, by my ephemeris, at which time he will oppose Saturn. The opposition will have ended by March 27-28 in terms of exactitude, but by whole signs - Aries opposing Libra - Mercury will remain in opposition to Saturn throughout his stay in Aries (ending on April 3).

Saturn in the chart is exalted in Libra, but retrograde; this signals a return to a previous situation or mode of thinking, and it will be interesting to see what happens. Saturn signifies the workings of destiny, and in this chart he rules both the 8th house of endings and spousal resources, and the 9th of legal issues - it is Mercury who will oppose Saturn, though, not Jupiter (the man), so it is difficult at this juncture to say what the opposition will mean except that a turning point will have been reached with that aspect. But I think that it will involve you in a material way, since Mercury is your significator.

The opposition represents confrontation, so either a decision will be necessary on your part, or you will be face-to-face with an issue involving the 8th or 9th house and relationship, generally (since Saturn is in Libra, the sign associated with marriage and partnerships in the natural zodiac).

(Sorry, I keep editing for grammar - antecedents and all that! :) )

DarkElectric
15-03-2010, 11:29
Mercury leaves Pisces on March 18-19, by my ephemeris, at which time he will oppose Saturn. The opposition will have ended by March 27-28 in terms of exactitude, but by whole signs - Aries opposing Libra - Mercury will remain in opposition to Saturn throughout his stay in Aries (ending on April 3).

Saturn in the chart is exalted in Libra, but retrograde; this signals a return to a previous situation or mode of thinking, and it will be interesting to see what happens. Saturn signifies the workings of destiny, and in this chart he rules both the 8th house of endings and spousal resources, and the 9th of legal issues - it is Mercury who will oppose Saturn, though, not Jupiter (the man), so it is difficult at this juncture to say what the opposition will mean except that a turning point will have been reached with that aspect. But I think that it will involve you in a material way, since Mercury is your significator.

The opposition represents confrontation, so either a decision will be necessary on your part, or you will be face-to-face with an issue involving the 8th or 9th house and relationship, generally (since Saturn is in Libra, the sign associated with marriage and partnerships in the natural zodiac).

(Sorry, I keep editing for grammar - antecedents and all that! :) )

This is very interesting.
I have a couple of questions, I hope I don't sound silly.
I'm not sure why Jupiter is "his" significator, He's Geminii, isn't that ruled by Mercury? And I'm Scorpio, which I always thought was jointly ruled by Pluto and Mars, but seeing as how Pluto's planethood has been revoked, is it just Mars these days ruling Scorpio? Or do the sun signs not really matter all that much? If I'm Scorpio, how does it happen that Mercury be my significator? And "her" sun sign is Pisces. What a watery mess! I'm not quite catching on here. :confused:
( Forgive me, I'm such an Astrology Newb! And I edit too, for similar reasons, albeit your grammar is much better than mine. :))

Could the confrontation be the inevitable confrontation between "he" and "she"? Especially seeing as they have some problems with acrimonious, instead of harmonious, ways of relating to each other? I'm hoping that it won't be a confrontation between he and I...

Astraea
15-03-2010, 11:37
The horary chart stands alone as the map of the question. You, as the querent, are represented by the ruler of the first house of the horary chart - in this case, Mercury (since Gemini rises and Mercury rules Gemini); your relationship partner is signified by the ruler of the seventh house, which is Jupiter (since Sagittarius is on the cusp of the seventh house, and Jupiter rules Sagittarius). Your natal sun signs are not involved in the horary chart.

Astraea
15-03-2010, 11:46
I don't know what the confrontation might involve beyond the 8th and 9th house significations, and as I said it will be interesting to see how it plays out - it will concern you in some way, since Mercury (your significator) is the planet that will oppose Saturn. Jupiter, signifying the man, is not involved in the aspect. This need not be an actual confrontation (as in an argument), but rather a shift of perspective or a decision on some level. Aspects to relevant planets represent movement in matters signified by the chart. So however it plays out, I would expect that you (Mercury) will have more facts on which to base your decision by the end of the coming week.

(Edited to add: Bear in mind that a horary chart pertains only to the question for which it was drawn up - in this case, "Is he concealing anything from me?" While the chart yields a certain amount of background information, its primary focus is that specific question. So I would expect that Mercury opposing Saturn will bring an opportunity for you to understand more about your relationship with this man, relative to your question.)

DarkElectric
15-03-2010, 11:57
The horary chart stands alone as the map of the question. You, as the querent, are represented by the ruler of the first house of the horary chart - in this case, Mercury (since Gemini rises and Mercury rules Gemini); your relationship partner is signified by the ruler of the seventh house, which is Jupiter (since Sagittarius is on the cusp of the seventh house, and Jupiter rules Sagittarius). Your natal sun signs are not involved in the horary chart.

Thanks for explaining. :)
I appreciate your taking the time to help me out with this. You and Minderwiz are such patient folk, bless you!
I'm glad to have this information beforehand. To me, it's exceedingly positive news. 9th house- legal issues..."he's" an attorney! :D

All joking aside, I have told him that I'm not going to accept the same deal when I get there as I have here. He either files for divorce and carries it through or I'm gone. I told him I really dislike what I see as the inherent dishonesty of the whole thing. My ex husband was a controlling bully. I met "Mr Jupiter", who happened to also be unhappily married to a controlling bully. We fell in love. I am divorcing my ex as we speak, it should be final before June.
Both "Mr Jupiter" and myself had come to the conclusion long ago that if either of us had been happily married, we never would have been able to fall in love with each other. We could have been friends, but neither one of us would have felt anything other than that. However, we were both miserably unhappy in our respective marriages. And as time went on, it became clear that he and I were amazingly right for each other, and in some exceptionally profound ways.

I just hope this all works out for us.

DarkElectric
15-03-2010, 12:06
In any event, I'll post out what happens, as it will indeed be interesting to see, especially from an analytical perspective, how the situation develops accompanied by this particular chart.
I don't mind this being used for study and "research" so to speak, if you guys would like to do so. :)

Astraea
15-03-2010, 12:12
I was editing as you were posting your reply, and I just want to be sure that you see the little bit I added to my last post - it will help in assessing the scope and significance of horary charts.

Life, what a confusing potpourri it can be! I wish you light on the path and many happy days ahead.

DarkElectric
15-03-2010, 12:31
Yes, I did see it, thank you.
And thank you so much for your good wishes, too, it seems as if I'll need more than a little bit of luck here, and faery dust.

I also have been re-reading Minderwiz's explanation of the horary.
The issue of his child does need to be successfully resolved. It's pretty much all he's talked about, how the daughter will handle it. However, her best friend's parents are going through a divorce, as well as several friends from school, so that might de- mystify it a little bit, even though I know it'll be jarring and disconcerting. I care about her too, and don't want her to be devastated by this. She might not be, seeing as how she's tired of them fighting endlessly. "Mr Jupiter' is also concerned ( and well he should be) what sort of lessons about relationships this ugly home situation is teaching her. He's worried ( as am I ) that the message she might be getting here is 'It's ok to stay in an unhealthy relationship."

I admit, I'm worried that he might call the whole thing off if his daughter freaks out about it.
But if she does, I simply won't be able to stay with him because no, I won't come between him and his child. So indeed, the child may come between he and I. I pray that doesn't happen.
Minderwiz said that according to the chart, it was nearly too late for us.
I've been feeling as if a window of opportunity has been there, but we had better jump through that window before it closes right in front of us. Windows of opportunity don't open very often. Perhaps that's what the "urgent" feeling I'm getting about this is all about? Because there is an urgent quality to it. I moved up the date of my departure, because I felt I needed to, for some reason. I was originally supposed to leave the East Coast on April 26. Now I'm going March 29.

Astraea
15-03-2010, 13:31
Saturn rules the 8th and 9th houses of the chart, but he is physically present in the 5th house of children - so the child's understanding of what is happening could indeed be a bit of a problem.

Normally we would take the ruler of the 5th house cusp to signify the child, but Mercury (ruler of Virgo, the sign on the cusp) is already in use as your significator. This is symbolically important, as it indicates that you identify with her and understand her situation.

I think that we can consider Saturn to be at least a co-ruler of the child, since Saturn is in the 5th house; Saturn is exalted, indicating the high value placed on her by both you and her father. The fact that Saturn is retrograde signifies that although that planet is in a strong position, there is also some degree of discomfort.

I agree with Minderwiz that we might consider Venus as the ruler of the child, though it's also conceivable that Venus represents the wife. Either way, Venus is uncomfortable in Aries - so neither of them is likely to sit easily with the news.

Children can be very resilient, given enough time to absorb and assimilate situations - so maybe the pressure that you feel has to do with clarifying your plans and setting them in motion; the daughter might need to adjust by stages. The chart really doesn't speak much to that issue, since its central focus is the man's level of disclosure.

DarkElectric
15-03-2010, 14:07
True.

It's sometimes difficult for him to speak of deep seated emotions, albeit his fear is something he's always discussed with me. I think there's a lot more to his interaction with the bullywife than he's letting on to me. Perhaps guilt kicking in that he's really planning to go through with it. Maybe he's having second thoughts due to overwhelming panic, and is looking for some way to get out of the promises he made to me, so he won't have to deal with the consequences? At this point, I'm 3000 miles away. If he were to pull the plug on our relationship, he wouldn't have to see or deal with me on a regular basis. In fact, he wouldn't ever see me again.

Giving the mad cow the boot, however, he'll have to deal with the divorce process, all the concomitant misery, and she'll always be the child's mum, so he'll have to deal with her quite often. Even though he claims that he loves me, he doesn't love her, and wants us to be together so very badly, if he's indeed a coward I can guess which choice he'll make. He's told me several times he's not having second thoughts, but I think he's having second, third, and fourth thoughts. This also could be Ye Olde Paranoia on my part, because I want this to happen so badly. Or it's my gut shrieking, 'Listen to me, you fool!! This is NOT indigestion!"

I sometimes cannot discern which is which at times. That can be problematic.

Minderwiz did tell me I'd know more about what's really going on by next week. I'll just prepare myself to deal with whatever comes down the road, be it the worst, or the best. I'm glad the Mars retrograde has passed, however. I don't feel the stagnant, heavy weight in the general energy which I felt before..

Astraea
15-03-2010, 15:02
If he's got cold feet, better to find out now than after uprooting yourself. He would have to be a very unusual person to feel no trepidation about breaking existing family ties - indeed, you wouldn't want to be with someone who lacked emotion about it.

You are already well along in your divorce process, but he has not even started and he might not be able to face the responsibility of owning his actions. The chart shows you moving away from him, so maybe your gut is roiling for a reason. If you don't force the situation through acts of will, it will likely resolve of its own accord in a way that is best for all parties.

OmSeaweed
15-03-2010, 16:20
Minderwiz,

I just wanted to say your horary is amazing and was incredible to read. I am in awe!

Minderwiz
15-03-2010, 22:04
Thank you Omseaweed!

Wow, quite a lot of activity overnight!

Thanks for providing the extra info DE and thanks Astraea for explaining the nature of significators in a horary chart, something that I had not really gone into at the outset.

I should perhaps also point out some things implied in Astraea's posts. A horary is a chart for the specific question and focuses on that question. As Astraea points out this means that we do get a certain amount of background and context but not the answer to other questions that were not asked.

The question was 'what is he concealing' and the answer is that if focus and motivation are not with you (DE) they are with a fifth house issue, probably the child. You didn't specifically ask 'Does he love me?' - if you had the answer would have been 'No' BUT that is a different question and we might have got a different chart, which might have shown he did. That is why it's very important that you ask the question that really concerns you. If you were doubting his love then you SHOULD have asked 'Does he love me?' if (as was the case) you had other concerns that something was getting in the way, then asking 'Does he love me?' might show that he does, though that is not the same question as 'Will we marry?' - He might love you but you may still not marry. Again that stresses the importance of asking about your real concerns.

Secondly Horaries are not for ever (unless you specifically make them so). Often that means that a time limit should be set on horary questions (in your case one did not seem appropriate). As Astraea points out the coming opposition of Mercury and Saturn may well mark the end of the period in which this horary is in force. The 'here and now' though is that he has other more pressing concerns.

Your question did not specifically mention his wife, nor was she mentioned as a potential obstacle to the potential marriage. In that case it's not always easy to pick out a significator for her in the chart. Possibilities are the Moon and Venus (as these planets have natural signification for wives). I gave Venus to the child, who you did mention as a potential issue and that seemed to fit. The chart is a Day chart, so if I had had to pick a significator for his wife I would have taken Venus (assuming that the child was not an issue). That might have suggested that it was the wife who had some hold over him that he could not (or would not) break in the current circumstances - a sort of 'battered husband syndrome'. I'm not trying to undo the horary, simply showing how the way in which you phrase the question and the surrounding information supplied can influence the reading.

You did not see the wife as an obstacle, but you did feel that the daughter might well be (consciously or unconsciously). The chart certainly reflects those concerns. If you had felt (or indeed really do feel but don't want to admit it, even to yourself) that the wife was the obstacle, then the chart would need to be read with Venus as the wife.

One thing that you should get out of this is that many of the issues around the relationship have been stirred up for your consideration and if you consider them carefully you will be OK. Not all questions have been answered of course, only one specific one but you may well be able to answer the others for yourself. If there is something that bothers you and you need to ask a further question then by all means post one!

Good luck!!!

DarkElectric
16-03-2010, 01:14
Minderwiz, thank you.
You are indeed the best. :)

I did ask the question that has been preoccupying me.
I didn't ask if he loves me, because I know he does, but there are indeed obstacles.
I've been concerned about "battered husband syndrome" myself, and also have concerns that she has some sort of unhealthy grip on the man.

The horary answered the question accurately. He does have some other pressing concerns, and I have felt as if he hasn't been focused on me since the second week of Feb 2010. What I find interesting about our situation, is that he made the proclamation that he was going to take the necessary steps to remove the obstacles to our being together on Dec 2009, and this was the beginning of the Mars retrograde. He had also started taking anti-depressants. I discovered that she is now on them too, she went on them first, and I believe the psychiatrist who prescribed them for him is HER psychiatrist, who I think he began seeing at her insistence. The first Dr he saw recommended improved diet and excercise. I think that guy had the right idea. This new one threw drugs at him. Typical American Big Pharma thrall. :mad:
The pills have destroyed his libido. :(

Call me paranoid, but I suspect that bullywife may have had a feeling that he had 'interest' elsewhere, and possibly nagged him into seeing her Dr, and going on meds she knew would kill his libido, in order to keep him docile, controlled, and with her. I might be dead wrong about this but I would put nothing past her.
Indeed, I've noticed a change in him since he started taking those things, and it's not a change for the better. There are terrible side effects from those damned pills, and he's still depressed.

I do feel that the wife is an obstacle, in the respect that he's so terrified of her and how she'll react to this. He has told me he hasn't loved her for quite a while. He said that fear isn't love, it's the opposite of love, and he's right about that.
I also feel she's an obstacle because of what I perceive as her unholy grip on him.

Something is bothering me, and I appreciate your invitation to post another question.

I'll do that, in the next post.

DarkElectric
16-03-2010, 01:31
Hello Minderwiz,
Thank you for encouraging me to post another question.
I hope people are benefiting from them on many levels, and are able to use my situation as a living example of horary charts in action. :)
I hope my feedback is detailed and useful. I'll also exchange tarot readings as well if you'd like.


My next question:

Will he actually leave her, and will my physical presence in his world at the crucial moment be the deciding factor in bolstering his courage enough for him to get out of there and away from her?


Monday March 15- 10:30 Eastern Daylight Time, 7:30 pacific Daylight Time.

214red
16-03-2010, 02:00
thanks to all of you for not only giving the reading but explaining things very thoroughly, its been interesting to read

DarkElectric
16-03-2010, 02:12
I'm personally amazed by it all.
I'm reading the "Traditional Astrology" thread right now, and am trying to grasp the concepts. It's fascinating, and exceptionally in- depth.

214red
16-03-2010, 02:17
the amount of insight and teaching i have gained here has been amazing, Minderwiz, dadsnook, and others have been invaluable in the information they have taken their time to pass on.

DarkElectric
16-03-2010, 02:52
the amount of insight and teaching i have gained here has been amazing, Minderwiz, dadsnook, and others have been invaluable in the information they have taken their time to pass on.

I'm also impressed by the kindness and patience the good folk here have shown to someone (like me!) who is terribly inexperienced in the discipline of Astrology.

Thanks again, so very much.

Minderwiz
16-03-2010, 03:18
Thanks DE,

I've cast a chart for 'Will he leave her?' (including your rider about your own presence) and will think about it and get back to you. One principle of horary is that you can't ask the same question twice in quick succession. This question is clearly different, even though it's concerned with the relationship, so we should get an answer.

In the light of your further comments about the wife, I am beginning to think that the wife should be the Venus figure in your first horary and the issue is that he is loathe to sever the knot - for all the reasons that you have outlined and seems to be more the problem than his daughter. I think that deep down that is what has been concerning you, as you seem fairly relaxed about taking on the daughter and indeed seem already to have established a good relationship, albeit at a distance. The drugs might also account for his showing no interest in you in the previous horary.

Oh - I enjoy being able to practice my Astrology, so please don't think that it creates any obligation at all, I am learning and enjoying the process.

DarkElectric
16-03-2010, 03:29
Thanks DE,

I've cast a chart for 'Will he leave her?' (including your rider about your own presence) and will think about it and get back to you. One principle of horary is that you can't ask the same question twice in quick succession. This question is clearly different, even though it's concerned with the relationship, so we should get an answer.

In the light of your further comments about the wife, I am beginning to think that the wife should be the Venus figure in your first horary and the issue is that he is loathe to sever the knot - for all the reasons that you have outlined and seems to be more the problem than his daughter. I think that deep down that is what has been concerning you, as you seem fairly relaxed about taking on the daughter and indeed seem already to have established a good relationship, albeit at a distance. The drugs might also account for his showing no interest in you in the previous horary.

Oh - I enjoy being able to practice my Astrology, so please don't think that it creates any obligation at all, I am learning and enjoying the process.


I'm glad I can help you as well. :)

I did a tarot reading on this too, (of course!) and the results indicate to me that he is indeed going to get the courage up to escape.
Nothing is ever carved in stone, but from this morning's reading it looks better, at least. If you'd like me to PM the results of the tarot reading to you, I'll be glad to.

He dislikes living in fear. I too think he's loathe to sever the knot, and it isn't because he's got any deep love for her, it's fear, finances and logistics. I've asked him what he fears the most, he said "Change".
Since change is the only constant in life, I'd think that for his own peace of mind he'd best get a grip on this change thing. It's not going to stop happening any time soon.

We had discussed canceling "The Plan" altogether several weeks ago, and he told me that would make him feel worse than going ahead with it, because he'd feel like a total coward and a wimp besides.

Minderwiz
16-03-2010, 07:43
Well I've done the chart:

Question: Will he leave her (especially if I am present)?

The universe has a way of making it's point. If you examine the attached chart you will find that Virgo rises and Pisces is on the Descendant. So your significator is Mercury (again) and his significator is Jupiter (again).

Mercury is in the eighth house and is combust, two very big accidental debilities, and is still in Pisces so has massive essential debility. Mercury is much weaker than before, but being in Pisces, is received by Jupiter, so you love him. (which we already knew)

He is Jupiter in the seventh. As before he has major essential dignity and now a lot of accidental dignity because he's angular in the seventh.

In this case, I've got to assign Venus to his wife, as it's still a Day chart (but the answer would still be the same if I had used the Moon). The same thing comes over in terms of what he is interested in and motivated by, Himself and Venus (which is now his wife). Whether he loves her or not, he is under her sway, as you are under her sway. You (Mercury) do not appear in his motivations/interests.

Mercury is still moving away from Jupiter, so your presence will not help. He is firmly in his own house and sign - he's not moving anywhere The Moon cannot help you as she's combust, though in the Seventh. If she were his wife's significator she would be at home with him, though if you wish to clutch at straws, she is on the eighth cusp, which might be interpreted as leaving home. She is however in his Sign, Pisces, and therefore she loves him (or at least the present arrangements) and the Moon rules his fifth House of children and romance. OK he might not love her but she controls the child (will she get custody as the mother, if it comes to a divorce, instigated by him throwing her out?)

Either way I look at the significator of his wife, I don't get a situation where he is going to leave her. He is dependent on her. You may well be right that this is drug induced and Jupiter in Pisces seems to symbolise that condition.

The good news, such as it is, is that Jupiter is stronger than either signifcator of his wife. He could throw her out if he chose to do so.

The bad news is that the chart does not indicate any willingness on his part to do that. Indeed if she is Venus, he wants her, (or the life style) and if she is the Moon, she has occupation of his house and controls his child. Nothing that you can do will change this situation - he himself must change if things will move in your direction.

One ray of hope is that only 3 degrees of Virgo is rising - it's perhaps too early to get an answer, or rather now is too early to expect him to break the bond. That does not rule out hope for the future but I repeat, he will have to change and change quite radically for that to happen.

I know this is not the answer you want to hear and I realise you may choose to try anyway. But you have to face the real possibility of going out there and finding he's in no condition to fight and your situation relative to him is extremely weak. Once again you need to consider your actions carefully.

Sorry to bring bad news but I think you expected that result, even if you hoped for something much better. Again I wish you the very best for the future and if I could change the result I would but that is what the chart tells me.

Edited to supply the right chart LOL

DarkElectric
16-03-2010, 08:28
Oh dear....
Thanks Minderwiz,
I'm trying to digest all of this.

I know "she" will get partial custody of the child, by law.
His plan is to tell her they're through, that he wants a divorce, and has told me he intends to completely walk away from the house, the money, everything, all he'll ask is that she take over the majority of their marital debt, ( she spends like a sailor. He hates it.) and grant him equal custody of the girl.
We'll see if he stays the course or not.
I'm beginning to get nervous about this. My plan is to be on a flight out on Monday March 29th, but that's 2 weeks away.

I'm confused about something here. You said the Moon is in his sign, Pisces. Did you mean his sun sign? "She" is Sun Sign Pisces, HE is Sun Sign Gemini, but as I'm learning, this doesn't have much influence. I'm trying not to be a goose here, I'm truly confused and trying to forget much of what I do know about the way modern astrology is put forth, with the predominance of the sun sign and all. Yes, I admit, I'm clutching at straws...

Astraea
16-03-2010, 08:50
Hi Dark Electric. I just want to say that I agree with Minderwiz' analysis of the chart. For whatever reasons, this man is right where he wants to be - strong in his own house and sign, calling the shots. Mercury (you) has no sway over Jupiter (him). I don't think that your presence on the scene would improve or expedite the situation, and might even stir the pot in an unproductive way.

As Minderwiz says, it's all up to the man at this point - his reasons for leaving must outweigh those for staying, and only he can position himself on that spectrum. If you were my client, I would advise you to proceed very cautiously, principally by stepping back and waiting to see what he actually does (or doesn't do).

DarkElectric
16-03-2010, 08:56
Good advice given.
Thank you so very, very much.

I am going to step back from this and take a watch and wait attitude.
When we last spoke on the phone,(Friday) he was exceptionally distressed when something I said in passing seemed to indicate that I'd changed my mind about going out there, but then when I explained that I'd be flying, not driving, he was quite relieved.

Watch and wait. 2 weeks can be forever, or it can be one flash of light.
I'll be watching carefully. I've already hedged my bets by flying out instead of driving. If I fly there, and things don't go well, I hop on a plane and come back.
Driving back would be much more difficult.

I also think that by my choice to fly there I've possibly gone with my paranoia, in granting the possibility that he'll chicken out, (which he has sworn he doesn't want to do, but...) because he knows if he calls me on the night of the 28th and tells me things went terribly, the daughter freaked out, all hell has broken loose, and not to come out, I'll only have lost $175. bucks on a flight, which he will probably send to me. (Although I'll be so angry I'll not be speaking to him again.)

Fire Cat
16-03-2010, 08:59
This is an horary chart which is not based on anyone's birth data. It is a chart cast with the current date, and planets, houses, etc. are assigned to the acting characters (you etal) within the chart.

I am fascinated by all this and rush off to look up some more stuff on the horary!

DarkElectric
16-03-2010, 09:10
This is an horary chart which is not based on anyone's birth data. It is a chart cast with the current date, and planets, houses, etc. are assigned to the acting characters (you etal) within the chart.

I am fascinated by all this and rush off to look up some more stuff on the horary!

Does this mean the data will be consistently changing? Concerning the significators, I mean.
Will I always have Mercury as a significator, will he always have Jupiter, or will these change too, given the date, time, and the question which is being asked?:confused:

Fire Cat
16-03-2010, 09:18
That one's too technical for me lol. I am a newbie on this end.

I think your significator can change.

DarkElectric
16-03-2010, 09:52
I'm a newbie too. It's getting somewhat less confusing the more I read, but there's really a lot to it. Sometimes the more I think I understand, the less I really do. *Sigh*. It takes time. I've been reading tarot for 15 years now. That confused me quite a bit at first too. Now it only confuses me once in a while!

Astraea
16-03-2010, 09:55
A horary chart is cast for the time and place that the astrologer understands the question. Significators are thus dependent on time and place, as all 12 signs of the zodiac will rise (appear to cross the earth's horizon - hence the term "rising sign") within each 24-hour period. So yes, significators can change. One of the most remarkable features of horary astrology is that, even though significators can change, it is not possible to fudge an answer as long as certain astrological conditions (known as "considerations before judgement") are met. When significators don't change, or when they remain significantly related to one another through rulership (as in the two charts for thematically related questions that Minderwiz drew for you, Dark Electric), it is as if the universe were underscoring its answer.

DarkElectric
16-03-2010, 10:02
A horary chart is cast for the time and place that the astrologer understands the question. Significators are thus dependent on time and place, as all 12 signs of the zodiac will rise (appear to cross the earth's horizon - hence the term "rising sign") within each 24-hour period. So yes, significators can change. One of the most remarkable features of horary astrology is that, even though significators can change, it is not possible to fudge an answer as long as certain astrological conditions (known as "considerations before judgement") are met. When significators don't change, or when they remain significantly related to one another through rulership (as in the two charts for thematically related questions that Minderwiz drew for you, Dark Electric), it is as if the universe were underscoring its answer.

Ah, alright.
I was wondering if I'd waited several days before asking my second question what I would have gotten. ( Will I try anything, anything to encourage things to work out between myself and this man? :P )

Could a horary reading be understood as a description of the planetary energies influencing a given situation on a certain day at a certain time, sort of a snapshot of the energies at work at that moment, and later, as things move through their natural cycle, the pattern of events changes?

Minderwiz
16-03-2010, 10:18
DE,

To answer your (and others) questions about significators:

A horary chart is cast for the moment that the Astrologer understands the question. It is, or should be, the culmination of a series of events, whereby the person asking the question (the 'querent') thinks carefully about what it is they want to know and phrases the question as best they can.

They then negotiate the question with the Astrologer who will answer their question. This negotiation is to ensure that the Astrologer knows and understands the question and the question is one that can be answered by the horary process (there are very few that can't but one that would fall into that category would be 'Does God exist?'

Once the Astrologer knows and understands, the moment is right for the question to be asked and a chart is cast. The chart is a chart for the question and is in no way derived from birth charts or any other charts.

In both the charts I cast, one in the morning and one in the mid afternoon and on different days, I ended up with a Mercury ruled sign on the Ascendant and a Jupiter ruled sign on the descendent. For the 'universe' at least the two questions are intimately related (and of course you know that they are).

Unless there are very good reasons not to, the planet ruling the Ascendant is the significator asking the question, in this case Mercury signifies you in both charts. In questions about relationships, as these were, the other person is signified by the planet ruling the Descendent. In both cases this was Jupiter, so Jupiter signifies him. In the second horary, Jupiter is in the Seventh House - the House it rules, and also in Pisces, one of the signs it rules. This signifies that in the situation he is in his own home and as the question relates to him leaving his wife or getting her to leave him, that is actually quite important. If his wife were signified by the Moon, she too would be at home with him (the Moon being in the seventh and in Pisces) In that sense she, the wife, is in Pisces, that is nothing to do with her Sun sign at all.

Now do signifcators change regularly. Horary practitioners take the view that if you keep asking the same, or very closely related questions with short intervals in between that you will end up with charts that don't make sense. This is thought to be because the scenario in which this would happen is that the querent will not take 'No' for an answer (obviously if the first answer is what they want to hear they don't ask again). If the querent will not listen to the answer then the 'universe' will not bother repeating the answer.

Now it's a different matter if the querent, goes away, thinks about the answer waits for the circumstances to change and then comes back and asks again. Thus if DE were to wait till he actually does leave his wife, or throws her out, then the circumstances have changed and further questions could be asked - though I think she would be on the first flight there, instead!!

Modern Astrologers tend to regard horary with suspicion because it doesn't fit in with a modern view of the universe. It is base much more on the idea that the universe is not disinterested matter but is part of an organised living Cosmos that binds us all together. 'As above, so below....' For the Tarot Reader the ideas behind horary will be very familiar, even if the methods are not.

Going back to the main theme, I think Astraea's advice seems very sensible. Conditions may change and clearly you have plans to get there quickly if necessary. Astraea also thought that the coming opposition of Mercury and Saturn might well mark a change in circumstances. As I think from memory that is next week, that's not a long delay and you could well stll go ahead with your plans if his circumstances change in the desired manner.

DarkElectric
16-03-2010, 10:59
Thanks for explaining the horary chart in finer detail, Minderwiz.
I think I may be somewhat catching on!~

We've been working on his "escape plan" for several months now, He's still assuring me he's going to do it, that he's telling her "Sayonara" on either the 27th or 28th of March, and that we'll be together, on the 29th.


Even though I don't want to doubt him, I do, and unfortunately, I will doubt until I get on that plane the 29th of March because he's told me "the deed is done". My pessimism is telling me that he'll chicken out at the last instant, although I have NO proof. Do I think he's acting "funny"? Yes. He did tell me that knowing we're going to be together in person has caused him to lose interest somewhat in internet communication, because the real thing is so much better. ( Yes, I have proof of that!)

Two weeks. I'll be observing a lot in two weeks time.

Minderwiz
16-03-2010, 21:32
Hi DE,

I think the horaries confirm that you are right to have such doubts. Not because he is being deceitful but because his interests and motivations lie elsewhere - with his daughter and through her his wife. This may be the result of the drugs, and hence an abnormal state of mind for him, but that is the reality of the situation.

Horary is an ancient technique, it predates the Tarot by a millenium and a half, at least. but in many ways the same princilples apply. The querent must have a real interest and connection to the question (you obviously do) and the planets (like the cards) cannot be treaated capriciously

You asked Astraea whether asking your question a little later or a little earlier would change the significators and presumably change the answer. Yes asking earlier or later might well change the significators but the answer might still essentially have been the same. In the past I've done horaries for both the location and time of the person asking as well as myself, because of long delays in me reading the question. I've therefore had different signs rising and different significators but the answers have been essentially the same.

I've not tried repeatedly asking the same question at regular intervals during the day but to do so is not really asking the question in a serious manner, there is a hidden but more real question 'Does Horary work?' the question actually asked is not important to the querent and therefore the answers may well vary after a time - but that is not because the circumstances have changed or one answer is 'wrong' it's because the querent is abusing the method - I'm sure this would hold for Tarot too.

Real circumstances do change, as planetary configurations change and thus questions asked then may yield different answers - but that requires a waiting period, from as little as a week or two to months or even years in some circumstances.

DarkElectric
16-03-2010, 23:55
Hi Minderwiz,

I definitely wouldn't say that the horaries are not describing the situation accurately, I'd say they're quite precise in describing the reasons behind the current situation, something that he has been either unwilling,unable, or unaware of within himself to be able to do.

I'm interested to see what occurs during the upcoming opposition of Saturn and Mercury.
Astraea said this would be the 18-19 of March. Showdown time? Aren't those the Ides of March? Caesar beware!

I feel the distancing effect, which was mentioned by the horary. It's interesting, because 'she' is away on business, and usually he's quite eager to talk to me, play the video game we play, be with me as much as we can be in a cyber world. But not this time.

So I'm hurt, and getting angry with him, because after two years of assurances, at the crucial moment, when we've decided to take the leap and actually be together, I'm getting the distinct impression that he's running away. But he's not telling me. I wonder when he intends to tell me, or if he's subconsciously trying to push buttons so I'm the one who ends this in anger, and he's off the hook with everyone.

The horary gives a concise explanation, not for the "What is he doing" but "Why is he doing it".
I think there was some reason I bumbled back onto the forums again, came to the astrology section seeking information on what a Mars retrograde meant, and through your kindness, received the information which will encourage me to "dodge a bullet" so to speak. :)

Astraea
17-03-2010, 01:19
Hi Dark Electric, I want to be clear about the March 18 opposition. If you go back and read my posts, you'll see that I was referring to some type of turning point, which could well be on the inner planes - i.e., a confrontation with self or a demarcation, a clarification, perhaps a decision. Try not to fixate on the date, because often things are set in motion whose manifestation appears at a later, and seemingly unrelated, time. I mentioned the March 18 period because I thought it might help you to see that the momentum of your question was purposeful, and that a clearer idea of your situation would be possible soon.

I would also like to add a bit to what Minderwiz has said about significators. I didn't want to go into too much depth about that subject in my post yesterday because I thought that I might only add confusion to the mix, but Minderwiz has described horary conditions and philosophy in such a masterful way that he has cleared the path for me to affirm that, yes, horaries done for different locations and times in response to sincere questions and a genuine need to know do produce essentially the same answers. In fact, I did my own charts for your questions based on my location and time (that is, where and when I understood your question), and came up with the same answers that Minderwiz' charts produced.

In four charts, then - based on your two questions - the answer was that you hold an almost peripheral position for this man right now. His primary focus is maintaining the status quo, for even though he might be unhappy, he seems unwilling to risk upsetting the apple cart. I would also add that the more you push, the more he will tend to see you as a carping wife-figure, and will feel even more caught between a rock and a hard place.

This dilemma is his to resolve, pure and simple. There is nothing you can do on your end but encourage him to be honest with himself and do what he thinks he can live with. Otherwise, your lives together will be miserable and you will have gained nothing.

(Edited to add: I wish that the charts revealed an easier picture, but the fact is that this fellow is conflicted - efforts to force him into action before he's genuinely ready are likely to produce resentment. That's just basic psychology. It has not been suggested that you break with him, only that you assess the situation carefully and realize that the ball is in his court at this point. The two of you established a timetable two years ago that might need to be reexamined in light of his current feelings. If he leaves his family situation in a way that seems premature to him, your relationship with him will not have as firm a footing as if he'd left with sadness, perhaps, but not regret.)

DarkElectric
17-03-2010, 03:06
Hi Astrea,
Thank you for your kindness and wise advice.
I appreciate the time and effort you put in to doing charts for me on this, I hope that my experience here is helping others learn, and is an example in action as to how horaries function.

I'm to the point where I feel marginalised to such a degree that I'm ready to just not bother speaking to him altogether.
I feel perhipheral.
I feel low priority.
I am not a low priority person.
I am feeling as if I'm ready to pitch this whole thing into the bin.

Not based on the charts, but based on the anger I feel at being marginalised after all that I was told, and encouraged to believe, by this man.
I don't want to become a carping wife figure.
I'm now starting to wonder if 'she' was always a carping wife, as she is today, or has become so due to frustration with aspects of his personality and ways of dealing with things which I now believe are in no way exclusive to his relationship with me.

I sent him an email last night asking him why he was so reluctant to talk to me. Perhaps that was the wrong thing to do.

IF I hear from him, which I might, unless he's so terrified of all of this, and embarrassed that he got himself into the position that everything said he wanted has a serious risk of actually coming true, I'll tell him that he needs to be honest with himself.
I have to be honest with myself too. I love him, but if he's going to behave this way, and grant me low priority, I deserve better.

(Edited to add..)
We established this timetable 4 mos ago, when he declared that he was finally ready to take our relationship to the "next level" and this is when we began to plan 'our' future in earnest. We've been together for 2 years, LDR, internet, and those sweet occasions when 'she' went off on business and I flew out.
I was overjoyed when he assured me that he'd made his decision, had chosen me, and now was ready to take the steps necessary on his end for us to be together. That was Dec 20, the day Mars went retro. According to him, this was his decision. And now, I feel as if I'm getting the cold shoulder, and the run around. Bah.:mad: It's the reason I feel "Bait and Switched" right now, and why I'm so mad that I'm considering that I might be ready to be the one who walks.

Thanks Astrea, and Minderwiz, you guys are the best. :)

Astraea
17-03-2010, 03:42
I'm now starting to wonder if 'she' was always a carping wife, as she is today, or has become so due to frustration with aspects of his personality and ways of dealing with things which I now believe are in no way exclusive to his relationship with me.
You raise a good point. With Jupiter in Sagittarius and Pisces, respectively, in the two horaries reproduced here, the man is shown as a figure who might feel a sense of entitlement and ease, even complacency, in his current situation. Jupiter in his own signs can be passive-aggressive, that is, he would probably prefer to avoid open conflict. It doesn't make him a bad person, but yes, you want to have a central place in his life and if he can't make that call on his own, the relationship will inevitably suffer. For the purposes of your question, Jupiter describes his modus operandi; more generally, a person's behavior under stress of this kind can bring many fundamental issues to light which are painful to see, but important to recognize.

It seems to me that this is what we're witnessing with Mercury (you) moving away from Jupiter (him). You're gaining the perspective needed to assess what is really happening here, and how you feel, as well as what his needs are (and those of the child). There is also the wife to consider, and monetary implications as well as custodial decisions (the planet Jupiter is concerned with finance as a general principle). So I think the charts are saying not to rush or push a decision; waiting and watching will work to everyone's benefit in the long run.

DarkElectric
17-03-2010, 04:10
You raise a good point. With Jupiter in Sagittarius and Pisces, respectively, in the two horaries reproduced here, the man is shown as a figure who might feel a sense of entitlement and ease, even complacency, in his current situation. Jupiter in his own signs can be passive-aggressive, that is, he would probably prefer to avoid open conflict. It doesn't make him a bad person, but yes, you want to have a central place in his life and if he can't make that call on his own, the relationship will inevitably suffer. For the purposes of your question, Jupiter describes his modus operandi; more generally, a person's behavior under stress of this kind can bring many fundamental issues to light which are painful to see, but important to recognize.

It seems to me that this is what we're witnessing with Mercury (you) moving away from Jupiter (him). You're gaining the perspective needed to assess what is really happening here, and how you feel, as well as what his needs are (and those of the child). There is also the wife to consider, and monetary implications as well as custodial decisions (the planet Jupiter is concerned with finance as a general principle). So I think the charts are saying not to rush or push a decision; waiting and watching will work to everyone's benefit in the long run.


It's definitely difficult for me not to shoot off an email to the guy telling him I'm tired of feeling marginalised, buh-bye. I'm really, really angry.

I know we'd be able to make it financially on our own, I have some wherewithall myself, albeit it's not as considerable an amount of massive wealth as she possesses. This union with him would be financially beneficial for me, in many ways. I was planning on purchasing property there, "Expanding my empire" so to speak. But this all looks so shaky right now.

He's no dummy, he's an attorney, and I think it might help him feel better about himself knowing that he was pulling his own weight, instead of depending on a rich wife for his sustenance. But it's the fear thing again.
Yes, I'm gaining perspective. I'm not happy with the insights I'm gaining, but true knowledge isn't just learning about what we want to learn, it's about learning what we NEED to know.

I'm resisting the urge to fly off the broom handle here and send an angry email. Watch and wait. The best thing to do.
My mom tells me she has a "feeling" that I'll go out there, and everything will be fine. I'm not so sure anymore, and in fact have ceased all travel preparations.


Thanks, Astrea :)

Astraea
17-03-2010, 04:42
true knowledge isn't just learning about what we want to learn, it's about learning what we NEED to know.
So true, and one of the hardest lessons in life (about everything,eh?)!

I had a taiji teacher once who said that the only time a person can be thrown is when he has stepped outside his own center; if he leans forward or backward in a movement, he can be grabbed by the arms or have his legs kicked out from under him. Something similar seems to true in relationships. The more centered in yourself you remain, unclouded as much as possible by anger and hurt feelings, the clearer will be your vision - and this will also help the man to identify his own primary motivations.

DarkElectric
17-03-2010, 04:49
Thanks, Astrea, for the comforting words :)
I feel so far off centre right now that I'm starting to wonder which direction centre is in.

I need to gain some solid footing here, and some peace of mind.
He hasn't sent a response to last night's email. Not a good sign.

I'm not going to send another one.


Hugs,
DE

DarkElectric
17-03-2010, 06:43
Mercury Vs Saturn...or the saga continues.

I just received a phone call from him.
He told me that as he was driving his daughter home from school yesterday, they got on the subject of her little friend's parent's divorce. She said to him 'It's so good you and mommy aren't getting a divorce". He was gobsmacked, and said,
"Um, yeah, yeah, that's good" And changed the subject. He was so freaked out by her comment. He said he feels like he blew the perfect opportunity to discuss the subject in a meaningful way, but that visceral fear enveloped him, and he didn't know how to react.

He doesn't know what to do now. He doesn't want to be married to that woman. He doesn't know how to tell his daughter. If he were to stay with that woman, he'd be living a lie, and the kid would see through that the minute she was old enough to realistically understand the concept of dating, and adult relationships. Which will be really soon. She's 12, but she's a "mature" 12, meaning she has biologically entered puberty. That changes a lot of things.

It is all about the daughter. He's sick and tired of the wife. He so wants to see the back of her. He was discussing how much he can't stand her with his mother yesterday. His mum said that if he wanted to divorce 'her" she'd support him fully in that decision ( She doesn't like 'her' either, this I know.)

I told him that he needs to live his own truth. Living a lie is no way to live, because the longer one lives a lie, the worse it is when the truth comes out. And the truth always comes out. The truth may be painful, unexpected, unpleasant, but it's always better than a lie. So I told him he needs to live his own truth, and that I'm not going to tell him how to do that.

He needs to decide for himself what his own truth is. He realises that the child will grow up, and when she does, if he stays with that woman, he will be sitting across a table from her, the kid'll be grown up and gone, he'll be hating every minute of his life, and wondering what happened to me. Because I also told him I won't put up with a situation where I'm kept hanging on, lonely nights, year after year.

I told him I'm patient, but my patience isn't inexhaustable. A little patience goes a long way but too much goes nowhere. I also told him that there comes a time in everyone's life when they have to face their fears, and confront them, otherwise fear will continue to rule.

He's so terrified that the kid will be destroyed emotionally. He's scared to death that her grades will go down, her sports will suffer, and that she'll "Go Bad" because of it. I don't think that will happen, I think it'll be rough at first, but kids adapt very well. I love her too. I don't want to hurt her either.

I have a different opinion- I think that if the daughter finds finds out her "Happy Family" is a lie, she'll be resentful, angry, and probably feel a modicom of guilt, because she'll feel that the dad she loves so much is unhappy because he continued to live a lie "For Her", and that it's all her fault he stayed in a miserable marriage. The truth is always better. People get used to the truth. They feel betrayed by lies. Even if they're 12, they feel betrayed by lies.

I feel that the truth will be tough to handle at first, but she'll adjust when she realises that this is about her dad and mom not loving each other any more, and that it doesn't mean that anyone will stop loving her.

I told him I understood that he's in a very difficult situation, and that I love him. He told me he loves me too. I believe him.

He's going to call me again tonight to discuss things further.
When he does, again, I will advise him to live his own truth.

Astrea, you said that the Mercury/Saturn could be something on the inner plane- I think that he's come to that inner plane, that point of searching his soul. He also said he'd have a lot more time to discuss things with me tomorrow. Interesting. The 17th. Whatever we discuss, I'm sure, he'll be soul searching and discovering things about himself, whatever those things are.

Minderwiz
17-03-2010, 06:57
I've been quite busy today but have just been catching up on the thread. Astraea's advice seems to be very good. I'd just add that I don't think it's a good idea to let fly at him via email. For your relationship to have any chance, he has to be given an opportunity to act for himself. Only he can sort out his problems. IF he chooses to do so. then you may have a chance together. If you try and force the issue or 'shout' at him, you are (in his eye) acting like his wife and he is more likely to opt for the status quo.

Your decision appears to be how much time you are prepared to give him to sort out things at his end, without trying to force him to act. It's tempting to say that if he loves you he will, of his own volition, honour his pledges to you. However life is often more complicated than that. At the moment you are within your previously agreed time scale, he may still do what you both agreed within that time scale. Your decision is how far beyond that point are you willing to wait if he fails to do so. Neither I nor Astraea, nor anyone else can take that decision for you but it is something that you will have to face and in the not to distant future, if he does not act.

I am not optimistic that he will act but no one will be more pleased than me if he does.

Again I wish you the best of luck in this situation.

Edited to add:

Our posts crossed so I've now read your update. Taking his story on face value (and I have absolutely no reason to disbelieve him) I think that is an awfully big spanner in your plans.

Yes he has to sort out his own situation and he does have to be honest to himself, but he also has to do the best thing for his daughter and I don't envy him the decision he has to take.

I'm not sure at what age she is legally entitled to leave home and set up for herself (here it is 16), or at what age she becomes an 'adult' in law (here it is 18) but that could well mean that she will be a direct part of his life for the next 6 years or more. He has to work out what will happen in terms of custody if he goes for a divorce, he has to work our how she will cope with that situation (he's an adult, she isn't). To be slightly brutal, she's his daughter, not yours and he has a duty to her as her father, that might take precedence of his duty to you. As I say I don't envy him, as the father of a daughter (albeit one who is now 30 and engaged) I have some sympathy with him.

This may prove the catalyst to him telling his daughter or it may mean that he decides he has to stay put for the time being, or even till she is old enough to be independent. Using UK law as an example, at 16 she could decide to live with you and him, no matter what her mother wants - is he going to wait for her to get near the equivalent US age or is he going to decide he can't live with his wife, even if it means a risk of losing his daughter. That's the decision that has now been forced to the front of his conscious. This is no longer a 'fairy story' romance, it's potential to be messy has hit him.

DarkElectric
17-03-2010, 07:08
Thanks, Minderwiz,
I'm just going to stick to my guns when he calls later, and continue to tell him he has to live his own truth.

He does. He has to.

Whatever that truth is, he has to live it.

And I can't hang around waiting. I'm so tired of false starts and lonely nights.

I don't want to be with anybody else but him, however I'm not going to encourage living lies, living in fear, or continuing to be a co- conspirator in deceit. And if he wants me to enable him to do that, in good conscience, I cannot. He wants to be with me. I can hear it in his voice. He loves me. He doesn't want to lose me. but I can't continue to live like this, and as he's coming to realise, he can't either. He has to make his own choices here. He's being handed a perfect opportunity for an essential life lesson here. Either way, he'll learn something, and so will I.

More than anything else I want him to choose to go forward with our plan. But he may not.

*sigh*

Astraea
17-03-2010, 07:27
I am not optimistic that he will act but no one will be more pleased than me if he does.

Again I wish you the best of luck in this situation.
Same here.

Something else occurs to me in relation to Saturn, and it might not be anything that's even remotely within the scope of your thinking or willingness to entertain - but I'll put it out there, just in case.

Among other things, Saturn represents the maturation process. As both you and the man are adults (let's give all the characters names so that we don't need to keep saying "the man," "the wife," "the child" - how about Dick, Jane and Sally? :D), perhaps there is another solution to your dilemma that doesn't involve divorce - for the time being, anyway. Maybe Saturn opposing Mercury can be understood as the ripening of a thought process.

You might consider the possibility of having a long-term, non-exclusive relationship with Dick that includes the possibility of commitment at a time when Sally is older and Dick feels that she'll be able to tolerate a split. Custody will not be such a crucial issue in a few years, since judges generally give children of 14 or 15 the opportunity to choose which parent they wish to live with. As a lawyer, Dick knows the difficulties he faces regarding custody as things stand now.

Many long-distance relationships work quite well, even though they don't fit within conventional molds. This is between you and Dick, and as adults you can forge your own path.

Again, you might not be comfortable even considering something like this - but there might be other ways for you and Dick to "think outside the box" that will ease some of the pressures for now.

Minderwiz
17-03-2010, 07:35
I added an 'edited' bit to my previous post. I understand his dilemma and situation. I know that some husbands in this situation will choose to continue the status quo and hope to continue the romance on the side, until the daughter is old enough to make her own choices.

Whether that is an option for him here is your decision. I very much see your point of view, remaining the 'lover' in the background is not a nice option and indeed there would be a real risk that you become a 'convenience' and he doesn't leave his wife even when his daughter is potentially independent.

Back to the main point - you have to decide how much more time, if any he has to sort things out.

DarkElectric
17-03-2010, 09:05
Hello :)

I think the problem comes in with his fear issues.
He admitted to me that when he heard that comment he was paralysed with visceral fear, and has been kicking himself ever since for not using it as the opportunity to discuss the issue in a loving, non threatening way.
He has expressed that he wants both himself and the wife to tell the girl that the divorce is happening, he doesn't want to be the one to "drop the bomb" on her without her mother there as well, and I can understand that.

He really, really wants to divorce the woman.
He was terrified by his daughter's simple comment, which could have opened the door to intelligent discussion about the impending divorce, and instead let the opportunity go by, and is beating himself up over that.

He told me that he's finally coming to the realisation just HOW unrealistic it is to expect that this whole deal is going to be the way he wanted it to go, which was..( and I quote him here) "I was hoping this whole thing could be seamless, you know, go from her, to you and nobody would get hurt. I know that's unrealistic, and people are going to get hurt. I don't want to hurt anyone...." Now, I admire him for not wanting anyone to get hurt. It's one of the reasons I love him so much. However, yes, it WAS unrealistic to think that it'd be seamless, with no discomfort to anyone. That was fear of confronting the truth about things speaking.

He's doing the child no favours by letting her think that she's in a Disney family, because when she finds out the truth, and she will, she'll feel completely betrayed because she was lied to.

I think she was 'fishing" because she's a highly intelligent child, sees the H.E.double hockey sticks that goes on around the house, and might have been wondering if that meant impending divorce, I don't know. But I do know that people can't fake it. For a little while maybe, but not for long, and kids have a way of seeing through BS.

My take on all this is that the universe is telling him "NOW IS THE TIME TO CONFRONT YOUR FEAR ISSUES, SIR, AND YOU ARE BEING GRANTED A GOLDEN OPPORTUNITY TO STEP UP TO THE PLATE!" Because it all seems to converge on this - the being tired of running, and living like a scared rabbit.

Franklin D Roosevelt said it all when he said "There is nothing to fear but fear itself!"

I don't want to remain a "lover in the shadows". I want real love, a real life and to walk in the sun with him, the way we'd discussed. We both deserve it. And we're not getting any younger.

DarkElectric
17-03-2010, 09:22
Same here.

Something else occurs to me in relation to Saturn, and it might not be anything that's even remotely within the scope of your thinking or willingness to entertain - but I'll put it out there, just in case.

Among other things, Saturn represents the maturation process. As both you and the man are adults (let's give all the characters names so that we don't need to keep saying "the man," "the wife," "the child" - how about Dick, Jane and Sally? :D), perhaps there is another solution to your dilemma that doesn't involve divorce - for the time being, anyway. Maybe Saturn opposing Mercury can be understood as the ripening of a thought process.

You might consider the possibility of having a long-term, non-exclusive relationship with Dick that includes the possibility of commitment at a time when Sally is older and Dick feels that she'll be able to tolerate a split. Custody will not be such a crucial issue in a few years, since judges generally give children of 14 or 15 the opportunity to choose which parent they wish to live with. As a lawyer, Dick knows the difficulties he faces regarding custody as things stand now.

Many long-distance relationships work quite well, even though they don't fit within conventional molds. This is between you and Dick, and as adults you can forge your own path.

Again, you might not be comfortable even considering something like this - but there might be other ways for you and Dick to "think outside the box" that will ease some of the pressures for now.

Interesting you should mention something like this, Dick and I are coming to this through an evolutionary process. Jane has no concrete knowledge that I exist. ( Albeit I think she suspects that there's somebody else, and has for a while.) My ex husband however, Let's call him "Bill", knew all about Dick. Bill and I were polyamourous. Bill had a girlfriend, that was fine with me, but Bill and I broke up because we had personal issues between us that weren't able to be resolved.
I really wanted to be with Dick, he said he was ready to leave Jane, and he was hoping that Sally wouldn't be devastated.
I can think outside the box, but Dick has told me time and time again that he wants me to be his daughter's stepmother, he wants to marry me, all that.

But thank you for the suggestion. Thinking outside the box is good. :)

Minderwiz
17-03-2010, 10:23
If he loves you enough then love will find a way

It might not be easy from here on in and it could become very messy, you may indeed have to think outside the box.

What matters now is how he resolves his issues, especially whether and how he tells his daughter. Incidentally if she were fishing, she would have phrased her comment in a different way - not one which almost demanded a 'No to divorce' answer. It might just have been an innocent comment,

However, the fact is that it spooked him and he has to address that. Let's wait and see what he decides, because the next step is his call. Let's also hope and pray that the universe helps him reach that decision.

DarkElectric
17-03-2010, 11:36
(((((((Minderwiz))))))))))))))
((((((((Astraea))))))))))))
Thanks guys :)

Kissa
02-06-2010, 20:04
reading this old thread, i wonder how my fellow Scorpio fell back on her feet...