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franniee
04-04-2010, 09:29
Hi Guys,

I just learned about this today and I am so confused will someone help me sort this out.

I am a virgo with taurus rising (11 degrees) - capricorn at the top. The dispositor of my chart is clearly venus. All of my placements lead back to venus except my saturn and jupiter which are conjoined at the top of my chart with my MC and in cap and lead to saturn.

My venus is in leo 16 degrees in my 4th house.

So what does this actually mean? The conversation began about merc retro and the person I was speaking to has merc as his dispositor so he said retros really effect him...

Thanks in advance! :heart:
f

DevilishAngel
04-04-2010, 10:57
I've never heard of a dispositor before? How do you find it?

Minderwiz
04-04-2010, 18:56
'Dispositor' is from the same root as our word 'dispose' and if you can 'dispose' of something, you can control what happens to it, or 'rule' it. So a dispositor is a ruler.

That means that a dispositor of the chart is the planet (or planets) that rule your chart. There are several ways in which you can find the ruler of your chart, and seeing franniee asked the question, I'll use franniee's chart to show how these work.

1. Simply use the Ascendant ruler - Venus in Leo. The trouble, Astrologically with this approach, as in this case, is that it doesn't always (or often) give us a strong planet. In this case Venus is mildly strong through essential dignity (within Leo she is in the Terms of Venus) and mildly strong through accidental dignity (5th House cusp).

2. You can check for a 'final dispositor' - a planet that rules all the other planets. To do that the planet must be in its own sign and there must be other planets that are in it's sign(s). In this case we have Saturn in Capricorn, with Jupiter in Capricorn. So Saturn rules Jupiter but who does Jupiter rule? There are no planets in Sagittarius or Pisces so the answer is 'no body'. The trail only goes down one planet. Of the rest, Mercury, Moon and Mars are in Libra (ruled by Venus), Venus is in Leo (ruled by the Sun) and the Sun is in Virgo (ruled by Mercury). So at best franniee is ruled by a committee of Saturn, Venus, Mercury and Sun. Not a very useful conclusion. Sometimes this method does yield a 'sole dispositor' and in such cases it's worthy of serious consideration.

3. You can look to see which planet has the most essential and accidental dignities (combined). For franiee, that is obviously Saturn, which is in his own sign, has a mutual reception through exaltation with Mars, and is on the MC (most elevated planet) - on this measure Saturn is way out in front. This is the method that Lilly would use.

4. There are other even more complex methods, such as that of Ibn Ezra, which combines a whole load of factors and on his method Venus would come out again as the 'Almuten of the Chart' (Almuten means 'winner').

As you can see there's no simple winner here. Personally, I'd go for Saturn as a powerful planet in terms of essential dignity, ruling and conjunct with the MC. If we are willing to include rulerships through exaltation and triplicity, Saturn also has strong links with Mars and the Moon. His main problem is that, in a night birth, he is totally misplaced, he should be below the horizon, and in a diurnal sign. However given that he is so much stronger than any of the others, I'd still go for Saturn.

franniee
04-04-2010, 23:03
As you can see there's no simple winner here. Personally, I'd go for Saturn as a powerful planet in terms of essential dignity, ruling and conjunct with the MC. If we are willing to include rulerships through exaltation and triplicity, Saturn also has strong links with Mars and the Moon. His main problem is that, in a night birth, he is totally misplaced, he should be below the horizon, and in a diurnal sign. However given that he is so much stronger than any of the others, I'd still go for Saturn.

WOW Thank you Minderwiz! I have never heard of a lot of what you said!

Isn't capricorn a diurnal sign? I had no idea that the fact that someone is born at night or day is also a factor! :bugeyed: So much to learn!!!!

My fiery venus does add a lot to my personality but I intuitively have felt saturn as the strong one in my chart. I have had a lot a lot of surgeries.... injuries - dbl spinal fusion, knee & wrist surgery, sprained ankles, dislocated knee cap - a litany of injuries! I've had a lot of dental work. Things come to me but not easily. My muscles are strong, I feel stiff and have to stretch! Sounds weird but I think these are all saturn! But what does it really mean? Does it mean my lesson is with my moon and merc? and healing? or with patience. Things will come in time - so to speak?

I found this Sun sole dispositor is the most candid and artless of the sole dispositor types – and therefore perhaps the subtlest. You have a childlike desire to shine in the world, together with a childish exhibitionism and an inclination to tantrums when you feel neglected. In other words, with this dispositor you possess all the characteristics of Leo in exaggerated form: the regal, lofty pride together with the paper-thin ego which is so easily scratched and hurt. You succeed by projecting a naďve innocence which arouses the protective instincts of other people, and disposes them to indulge or overlook your overblown vanity and flagrant egotism. Your moves and power plays are so blatantly obvious and unabashedly theatrical that no one really feels threatened by them, and hence no one seriously opposes them. You win people over with a hearty sense of amusement with both life and yourself, and with a spirited joie de vivre.

Moon sole dispositor occurs rarely; Some examples are: Julian Huxley, Anne Morrow Lindbergh, Liza Minelli, and Igor Stravinsky.

Mercury sole dispositor is the most amiable of the sole dispositor types; the one most involved in group ventures. Outgoing and friendly, you make a point of keeping things calm and sociable. In fact, you can carry your imperturbability to maddening lengths. You are a good listener, giving other people your full attention and concern, and smoothing out any differences of opinion. Yet you always maintain your space and distance, and you have a knack for getting on a personal basis with people without actually becoming intimate or committed. You depend for much of your success on other people’s good faith and tractability, relying upon your patient reasonableness to sway them. You present yourself as the impartial expert or arbiter, one who has no emotional stake in the proceedings but merely wishes to see things carried out in good order – i.e., your way. You win people over with your dry sense of humor and radiant good cheer.

Venus sole dispositor is the most overtly compliant and conciliatory of the sole dispositor types. You are kindly and solicitous for the feelings of other people without letting yourself become too involved with them. You shy away from any sort of disharmony or fuss, and thus can be amicable without being intimate, and sympathetic without being warm. You cut yourself off from the emotional ties which produce ups and downs in other people, yet you have a dark, brooding side intrinsic to your own nature which often sucks other people into your moods. You succeed by maintaining your own equilibrium in the face of disharmony, by refusing to be drawn into conflicts which dissipate your energy. You emerge from strife as fresh as a daisy, having worn everyone else down to a frazzle. Yet you have a pleasant, unruffled disposition and a cool serenity which wins the respect of all the people around you.

Mars sole dispositor is the most intense of the sole dispositor types. Although you possess great personal charm and elan, you have an overriding need to feel in the right and have the final word. You thrive on contention and throw down your gauntlet at the slightest provocation. You can muster a formidable array of justifications and rationalizations, Talmudic in their intricacy and Koranic in their inflexibility, to meet any argument or plea. You depend for your success on the inertia of others, gladly taking up responsibilities which they drop or avoid, and thereby augmenting your own power. You don’t shrink from tasks which are dirty, dangerous, or dull, so long as you can execute them without interference or the need for compromise. You manage to avoid seriously antagonizing people – and indeed, win their indulgence if not their support – with your quixotic optimism, youthful cockiness, and readiness to tackle anything.

Jupiter sole dispositor is the most humanitarian of the sole-dispositor types, the most concerned with people en masse and with standards of fairness and abstract justice. Because you tend to see yourself as a victim, you assume the role of protector and defender of the helpless and oppressed, a bulwark of rectitude in a world without conscience, a mother hen in a world full of hawks. You succeed by identifying feelings and concerns with the moral right, thereby expanding your power by defending an ethical principle, and pursuing personal interests under a rubric of disinterestedness. Although you are self-effacing and mild of manner, you are far, far from being humble; and when aroused you can be as tough and adamant as any sole dispositor type. You win people over with your high idealism, ingratiating manner, and true sincerity.

Saturn sole dispositor is the shrewdest, most calculating of the sole dispositor types. You carry out your empire-building in the most deliberate, step-by-step fashion, and yet caution has no part in your make-up. You possess an uncompromising dignity and a stone-faced determination which hardens as the odds mount against you. You have nerves of iron and a calm, unhurried manner in situations where most people would be biting nails. You take a rather cynical view of human nature, and uphold a strong sense of personal competence and superiority. You depend for success on the confusion of other people: you know you can wait them out, or else exploit their doubts and hesitation with a rapid, bold stroke. Your greatest asset is your pride in your own fitness and complete self-dedication to everything you do.

Neither venus or saturn describes me adequately. :rolleyes:

The only planet in it's sign in my daughter's chart is uranus in Aquarius and I am not sure that counts because it is an outer planet.

Minderwiz
05-04-2010, 00:53
Your welcome frannie :-)

I think it's a very rare person who can be encapsulated by one planet and 'rare' there is not in a good sense. We are all extremely complex beings, often with simultaneous opposite urges and emotions. As you don't have a sole dispositor, I wouldn't put too much emphasis on that interpretation set (though it is interesting). Lilly would actually refer to Saturn as 'Lord of the Geniture' which is not quite the same as meaning Saturn rules everything. He is, though, the strongest planet by far in your chart. Use Saturn for patience, tenacity and structuring your world view, but you are a temperamentally sSanguine person , so Saturn has to be kept in his place and allow the other planets to shine through when they need to. He gives you that extra substance and gravitas but he shouldn't dominate.

Early Astrology place a great emphasis on whether you were born during the day or night - for more info have a look at my thread on Traditional Approaches to Astrology.

Incidentally Saturn rules both your MC and your daughter's. He's your point of contact or would be if he wasn't highly dignified in your chart and in detriment and peregrine in your daughter's. What's more, from your daughter's point of view, Saturn rules the 10th house of 'Mother'. Your Saturn actually falls in her eleventh House of friends, so I would guess one lesson is not to appear the authoritarian parent but to be the 'friend' yet still have that Saturnian essence of the teacher and guide.

franniee
05-04-2010, 12:04
Lord of Geniture! hmmmmm another thing to look up. :D Thank you for the lesson(s)!

I am temperamentally a sanguine person and patience is definitely something I need to work on. :) Tenacity comes and goes with me.... it all depends on what I am going for but when it is on it is infallible.

Incidentally Saturn rules both your MC and your daughter's. He's your point of contact or would be if he wasn't highly dignified in your chart and in detriment and peregrine in your daughter's. What's more, from your daughter's point of view, Saturn rules the 10th house of 'Mother'. Your Saturn actually falls in her eleventh House of friends, so I would guess one lesson is not to appear the authoritarian parent but to be the 'friend' yet still have that Saturnian essence of the teacher and guide.

You are right, I do so much better when I approach her as a friend. When I lay the laws down all hell breaks loose! Talk about tenacious! :laugh: But unfortunately I do need to make her conform. It makes our lives so much easier. I knew it the second I looked into her eyes that I had to delve into her chart and understand her on a different level. There is so much of her that is innate. I saw it immediately when she was born. That old argument of Nurture vs Nature. With her it is still all about nature. })

I found this interesting on skyscript.co.uk
Let’s look at another Scorpio: Nov 12, 1934, 4:40 PM Cincinnati, OH 39 N 10, 84 W 27. The ASC is 5 Taurus 15. The native is Charles Manson, a man who needs no introduction, if for no other reason than he is well known as one to whom most would not wish to be introduced. Manson’s Lord of the Geniture is easy to spot: Saturn in Aquarius in 11. Saturn is in domicile rulership and triplicity and is in what is generally considered the most fortunate house in the chart. So what happened? Let’s face it, even a highly dignified Saturn isn’t cheerful, but it could give Saturn’s better qualities of self-discipline, organization and structure. This powerful Saturn also rules the MC, the place of honors. Manson would receive honor or recognition through his friends. Note his “friends” tended to come from conservative, well off backgrounds (Strong Saturn).

Saturn squares the ascendant ruler, Venus, linking Saturn to the ASC and appearance. William Lilly on the coporature of Saturn: “Most part his body more cold and dry, of a middle stature; his complexion pale, swartish, or muddy, his eyes little and black, looking downward, a broad forehead, black or sad hair, and it hard or rugged, great ears; hanging lowering eyebrows, thick lips and nose, a rare or thin beard, a lumpish unpleasant countenance, either holding his head forward or stooping, his shoulders broad and large, and many times crooked, his belly somewhat short and lank, his thighs spare, lean and not long, his knees and feet indecent, many times shoveling or hitting one against another etc.” (Christian Astrology page 58). Not perfect, but not bad considering it was written almost 300 years before Manson’s birth.

It can be argued that Manson exercised his free will by ignoring the strength of his Saturn, and going with the flow, in this case the ASC ruler, Venus, who is in detriment and combust in 7.

Manson wanted to be a Rock star, and wrote and performed music. Venus is the traditional ruler of music and she rules his ASC, but as stated above is very weak, and a weak Venus gives in to the baser desires. He needed self-discipline and structure. The potential (essential dignity) was there (Saturn in domicile and triplicity in aspect to Venus), but it required more power (accidental dignity), and Mars in Virgo in Manson’s chart is accidentally weak in the 6th and cannot give to Charlie what he gave to George.

So what did Manson do with his Powerful Saturn? He gave it to the Moon - ruler of the 4th house of family and exaltation ruler of the ASC. The Moon is in the rulership and triplicity of Saturn. In Aquarius it will be associated with groups. The Moon is conjunct the (true) north node: where you get help. Being in charge of the group (elevated Moon in 10 exalting the ASC) gave Manson the emotional support we all need. Saturn also squares the Sun-Venus conjunction that has the effect of blocking his self-expression. In summary, Manson certainly had his share of obstacles, but chose the path of debasement, rather than work with a Saturn so full of potential.

I am reading through the other thread..... just got home from a couple of Easter dinners so I may have to finish it tomorrow but thanks for all of that!!! :heart:

Saturness
30-09-2011, 05:47
I was reading this thread while looking for a definition of what is a "dispositor" in astrology, and I'd like to add that it's possible to get a "dispositor graph" at astro.com.

www.astro.com/cgi/genchart.cgi

On the drop down menu, select "Sign / House Dispositor Graph".

I have no idea if this is any good, specially because some two planets can appear as "dispositors"... I suppose a professional astrologer should be able to tell for sure which planet is stronger, using Minderwiz techniques suggested above.

Also, this chart uses the outer planets, and form what I have seen there's no explanation of what that means. Maybe it means nothing, or is helpful in one specific context. So far I haven't seen how the final dispositor can enhance the interpretation of a chart.

And, for what good it may do, here's a definition of the dispositor according to Astrowiki.
Dispositor
Each sign of the zodiac is ruled by a particular planet. When a particular planet A is in a sign of the zodiac ruled by another planet B, then B is said to be the dispositor of A. For instance, if Venus is in Cancer, the Moon is its dispositor.
The house and sign position of the dispositor is considered to influence the other planet and can add subtle nuances when interpreting the horoscope.
A special case occurs when planet A is the dispositor of B and vice versa. This is then called reception, and the mutual influence is considered to have similar qualities to an aspect between the two planets involved – even if no actual aspect between the two is formed. An example of this would be if the Moon was in Taurus and Venus in Cancer.

Sadly it does not make clear exactly how this influence works, or how you can observe it in a chart (or even if it makes any significant different in a chart analysis)...

Minderwiz
01-10-2011, 08:56
I was reading this thread while looking for a definition of what is a "dispositor" in astrology, and I'd like to add that it's possible to get a "dispositor graph" at astro.com.

www.astro.com/cgi/genchart.cgi

On the drop down menu, select "Sign / House Dispositor Graph".

I have no idea if this is any good, specially because some two planets can appear as "dispositors"... I suppose a professional astrologer should be able to tell for sure which planet is stronger, using Minderwiz techniques suggested above.

Also, this chart uses the outer planets, and form what I have seen there's no explanation of what that means. Maybe it means nothing, or is helpful in one specific context. So far I haven't seen how the final dispositor can enhance the interpretation of a chart.

I'm not to sure of the problem in the last paragraph - Astro.com is a psychological astrology site (and a very good one of its type) but the approach entails the use of the outer planets, or at least I've never seen a Jungian interpretation that does not use the outer planets. The problem that I see with that approach and dispositors is the use of dual rulerships for Aquarius, Pisces and Scorpio which begs a lot of questions when choosing which of the joint rulers to use in a dispositor tree.

What use does a final dispositor have in chart interpretation? Well it can give some indication of the relative strength of planets and possibly identify the most active planet in a chart - though to be honest I'm not at all convinced of that. The most that can be said is that the final dispositor (if there is one) is a planet in its own sign, whereas all the others are in the sign of another planet. While I've found rulership a very useful tool in my approach, I've not found dispositor trees add anything at all.


And, for what good it may do, here's a definition of the dispositor according to Astrowiki.

Sadly it does not make clear exactly how this influence works, or how you can observe it in a chart (or even if it makes any significant different in a chart analysis)...


Again I'm not sure which part of the quote you're focussing on - it seems to be the latter part about Mutual Receptions, so I'll try and deal with that but if it's the earlier chunk please make me answer that part too :)

Firstly the quote is a little misleading or at least imprecise. Reception is strictly speaking a situation where one planet, let's say Venus, is in the sign of another planet, let's say it's in Capricorn. To complete the reception there has to be an aspect between Venus and Saturn. Let's assume Saturn is in Aries, and squares Venus. Normally we'd take a Saturn square to Venus as being a hard aspect - psychologists would see this as a possible restriction of the ability to relate to others, or to appreciate beauty and art, or difficulties in establishing romantic relationships (and indeed those are only some examples). However where there is reception, as in this example, Saturn and Venus may not get on, but Saturn has aspected Venus and that act 'receives' Venus into Capricorn. So Saturn has to be something of a host, albeit grudgingly. It's something like the ancient rules of hospitality - if you take someone into your house and property, you are obliged to ensure their safety whilst they are there, even if you don't like them or it turns out that they are your bitter enemy. Once they have left your home, then normal hostilities can be resumed. In other words the 'stress' of Saturn square Venus would be abated, if not completely it would be greatly reduced.

Strictly speaking a Mutual Reception would be between two planets, both in their own signs but which aspect one another. For example Mercury in Aries sextiling Mars in Gemini. The obligations of the host go both ways, and each has some obligation to the other - they work together.

Now note that it doesn't matter what the aspect is, simply that there is one. Also it's not just rulership - reception can apply to a planet in any dignity of another, and being aspected by it and a mutual reception can allow any dignities to be mixed, for example Saturn in the Terms of Venus and Venus in the Triplicity of Saturn.

By the time of Lilly, Mutual receptions were seen as best with an aspect, but still had power simply from the sign or dignity relationship. In modern Astrology, the role of a mutual reception seems to be vague and applies to sign rulership only. No aspect is required. Some Astrologers, seem to suggest that mutual reception is the same as if the two planets changed signs - That is Sun in Libra and Saturn in Aries, is a mutual reception through exaltation and has the force 'as if' Saturn was in Libra and the Sun in Aries. I think that's excessive, however, without the mutual reception both planets would be in Fall, so they are stronger than they otherwise would be, whether they are strong enough to effect an outcome depends on accidental as well as essential dignities.

Saturness
01-10-2011, 14:51
I'm not to sure of the problem in the last paragraph - Astro.com is a psychological astrology site (and a very good one of its type) but the approach entails the use of the outer planets, or at least I've never seen a Jungian interpretation that does not use the outer planets. The problem that I see with that approach and dispositors is the use of dual rulerships for Aquarius, Pisces and Scorpio which begs a lot of questions when choosing which of the joint rulers to use in a dispositor tree.

Sorry, I explained myself wrongly! I meant, it could be a problem for people who do not use outer planets in their method. :) Then the dispositor tree would not be much of help, because it takes into consideration the outer planets and their co-rulerships. If you don't use outer planets, then their rulerships are not considered and the tree offered by Astro.com will be a bit a useless. I just wanted to make people aware of it, but I realize I made it all confusing!

What use does a final dispositor have in chart interpretation? Well it can give some indication of the relative strength of planets and possibly identify the most active planet in a chart - though to be honest I'm not at all convinced of that. The most that can be said is that the final dispositor (if there is one) is a planet in its own sign, whereas all the others are in the sign of another planet. While I've found rulership a very useful tool in my approach, I've not found dispositor trees add anything at all.

Thank you, that's what I wanted to know. It's supposed to add something to the interpretation, but nobody says what it does, for real. In a practical way. If Pluto is the final dispositor in my chart, does it make its aspects 'stronger'? Or its influence in my situation/personality/etc. more pronounced? Does it add to interpretation or change anything? It does not seem obvious to me, it's like an 'important thing' (because so many people talk about it) but only in a theoretical way.


Again I'm not sure which part of the quote you're focussing on - it seems to be the latter part about Mutual Receptions, so I'll try and deal with that but if it's the earlier chunk please make me answer that part too :)

It was all of it, lol! Like I said, I feel like they say what is it theoretically, but not what it does in a practical way. Their explanation does not answer the question I asked above, for instance. I've been looking for definitions in other websites and all agree that being a final dispositor, or being in 'mutual reception', add strength to a planet (or a pair of planets), but the difference it could make in a chart or how it could interfere in the interpretation.


Firstly the quote is a little misleading or at least imprecise. Reception is strictly speaking a situation where one planet, let's say Venus, is in the sign of another planet, let's say it's in Capricorn. To complete the reception there has to be an aspect between Venus and Saturn. Let's assume Saturn is in Aries, and squares Venus. Normally we'd take a Saturn square to Venus as being a hard aspect - psychologists would see this as a possible restriction of the ability to relate to others, or to appreciate beauty and art, or difficulties in establishing romantic relationships (and indeed those are only some examples). However where there is reception, as in this example, Saturn and Venus may not get on, but Saturn has aspected Venus and that act 'receives' Venus into Capricorn. So Saturn has to be something of a host, albeit grudgingly. It's something like the ancient rules of hospitality - if you take someone into your house and property, you are obliged to ensure their safety whilst they are there, even if you don't like them or it turns out that they are your bitter enemy. Once they have left your home, then normal hostilities can be resumed. In other words the 'stress' of Saturn square Venus would be abated, if not completely it would be greatly reduced.

Strictly speaking a Mutual Reception would be between two planets, both in their own signs but which aspect one another. For example Mercury in Aries sextiling Mars in Gemini. The obligations of the host go both ways, and each has some obligation to the other - they work together.

Now note that it doesn't matter what the aspect is, simply that there is one. Also it's not just rulership - reception can apply to a planet in any dignity of another, and being aspected by it and a mutual reception can allow any dignities to be mixed, for example Saturn in the Terms of Venus and Venus in the Triplicity of Saturn.

Well, the quote really did not explain much! I like your explanation, that's the kind of stuff that I like because it says how the thing works, not simply what it is. Thank you very much for this masterclass on reception, it's definitely going into my astrology notebook!

From your explanation, it seems to me that for reception it's not simply enough that a planet is visiting another's house, but also that the 'house owner' has seen the planet (represented by the aspect). Using your example, is Venus is entering Capricorn, and has an aspect with Saturn, that means Saturn is 'seeing' Venus and saying "okay, you can sleep at my place tonight. Here's some water and bread and a mattress." ( I suppose Venus would look around and think "Ew. Well, better than nothing. *sigh* I hope I am not eaten by rats and roaches during the night... *snif* Oh my God, is this mattress a flood survivor!?").

Now, in mutual reception, you have planets visiting each other's houses, and since they depend on other, they probably are going to be nice. They are going to offer each other some ale, meat and a warm stew, and a room with a decent mattress and possibly a fireplace. Like you said, they depend on each other... but they have to see each other, so they can properly exchange these amenities.

If they are not in aspect, it's pretty much as if they are ignoring each other. If they are in a friendly house (like, exalted), then it's okay, they are a good friend of the owner and the servants know how to proceed. They are welcome. If they are in a... difficult house (fall or exile), well they are kind of sneaking in or being forced there for some reason.

I realize this is a very silly analogy, but I confess that imagining the planets as things with a bit of a personality helps me to understand them better, and how they'd behave in different part of the chart, and in different aspects. :laugh:

Minderwiz
02-10-2011, 00:51
I realize this is a very silly analogy, but I confess that imagining the planets as things with a bit of a personality helps me to understand them better, and how they'd behave in different part of the chart, and in different aspects. :laugh:

Silly analogies, with the planets as 'people' actually can be very helpful, we can learn a lot from them as they give concrete situations to possible meanings :) I use them myself and I think that's the true value of the use of myth in Astrology - it gives some recognisable analogy that has meaning to us and which helps us understand the functions of a planet. However the big problem for the psychological approach is it elevates myth into the origin of planetary meaning, when if anything the situation is more likely to be the other way round - myths derive from trying to explain the planets.

As long as we recognise it is analogy then it does little harm and can be extremely helpful.