Question about Traditional Astrology

Inspired by Minderwiz and the Traditional Astrology thread I have been learning as much as I can about this approach. I'm finding it absolutely fascinating, but also a little worrying. Just hoping that someone here can help me out with a quick question.....please.

In the traditional approach the 2nd, 6th, 8th and 12th houses are not 'prettied up' the way they are in modern astrology. This is fine until I realise (with a sinking feeling) that I have a pretty full 12th house, my husband has Sun and Venus in the 6th, one daughter has a 12th house Moon and, most worrying of all to me, my other daughter has an 8th house Sun. Now, maybe I shouldn't be worried, it's just that I don't know enough yet to know what exactly all this means. Can a benefic planet in a horrible house make things better, or worse? Or is it more about whether the planets are dignified or afflicted. I hope my question makes sense and I apologise that in the end it hasn't ended up being that quick a question after all.

No you shouldn't be worried. I have Saturn and Mars in the twelfth and the Moon in the sixth (admittedly conjunct the Descendant). My Saturn is in Leo so on first sight it is doubly disadvamtaged being in its detriment and in the twelfth. As far as I can tell I haven't had a terrible life as a result (at least up till now). I would even say that it has been 'fortunate' but I haven't made it big time though.

There are three general comments for you to muse over:

1. What is your attitude to the free will/predestination debate? If you take things as predestined then you will probably shake your head and accept your fate (and that of your family). If you believe in free will, then you will probably decide that you might not have been dealt the best hand but then some of the best poker players are ones who make average or poor hands into winning ones. It's not what you have that determines your fate, it's what you do with it.

2. Lauguage changes, I don't remember Lilly using the word 'bad' he talks of good and 'evil' but clearly what he means by 'evil' is 'bad' in a modern sense (or even 'not good') We have overlays of meanings which we attach to 'evil' or 'unfortunate' that were not there in Lilly's time or in medieval or classical times. It's possibly as a result of those overlays that modern Astrologers and counsellors tend to 'pretty' up their descriptions to try and avoid clients reading things into interpretations that aren't really there. This is not to say that a twelfth House Sun is as good as a first House Sun, merely that it is not as good and will not produce as much return without more effort.

3. You need to take a wider view of a chart. The eighth House means a lot more than just 'death' - indeed in most horary redings, that is the last interpretation that would be attached to it. 'Other people's money and resources' is a much better day to day usage. Your daughter's Life force or vitality might need other people's money and resources to shine through. In that sense, it's not as good a placement as her own second, or in an angle, so it's less fortunate. It is not however, the end of the world. You also need to look out how those planets relate to others. If they are connected through aspect or reception (especially mutual reception) they may be able to express their energies quite strongly, even though their 'accidental' placemnet is not good. For example, my Saturn in detriment in Leo, gains becaus the Sun is in fall in Libra (Saturn's exaltation). Both planets are in essential debility but have a mutual interest in supporting each other. That might not suddenly make them strong again (though I've seen some Astrologers argue that it will) but it does mean that things are not as bad as on first sight. Saturn also 'joys' in the twelfth - iit can be good to have the 'malefics' out of the way! (and don't forget the etymology of 'malefic' has changed to from simply meaning bad' or 'ill'

I tend to see 'good' and 'bad' as areas or ranges rather than polar opposites. Something can be mildly good or mildly bad, not always extremely good or extremely bad and I think that built in but unspoken qualification makes all the difference to how we use the words. It comes down to using the terms sensibly and not see them in the same terms as some evangelical Christian preacher.

Who let the cat out of the bag?

I say again, "Who let the cat out of the bag?" Despite "astrological books", the 12th house can represent wonderful people and planet symbolism. Sun in the 12th people tend to have sunny and outgoing dispositions. Yes, some are in the caring professions, but their personalities make them very popular and their efforts in interacting with others make them much appreciated.

The sixth house? Perhaps you should, for general purposes, look at planets there as indicating how you work, how you cooperate behind the scenes with others (it is the 12th house of the 7th house of partners), your attitudes towards making an effort for your self and for society.

The eighth house? "Unequal sharing" is one of my favorite quips for this location in our charts. Your partner's resources, shared values of the group or groups you participate in. Yes, death and taxes and sex --- but those are also topics related to unequal sharing and group/partner values (except for "death" which can be many things).

I'm happy to see someone actually question the oft-repeated misconceptions of the thousands of non-thinking "astrologers" and authors out there who just repeat what they are told without a thought in their heads. Good for you! Questions like these will lead you faster and surer along the path of astrology. Dave

Thanks SO much to you both for your replies. They have been a real help. I've spent years learning about astrology but suddenly I feel like a complete beginner again, which is actually quite exciting. I've also started playing around with whole sign houses and so my chart is almost unrecognisable to me compared to what I'm used to. Thanks again.

As we have said, there needs to be a sense of realism here. To be slightly morbid, everyone dies, but only dies once during a lifetime (usually at the end ) However a planet in the eighth can appear regularly in natal charts, solar returns, transits, profections or any other chart we cast for ourselves or others. It is totally unrealistic and indeed downright 'unprofessional' to see 'death' every time, UNLESS you are doing a horary reading for a question specifically on the death of someone or other. As Dave points out 'Death' can have many shades of meaning and every Tarot reader knows that 'Death' may symbolise 'Endings' rather than the cessation of life, though in Astrology the fourth House is usually taken as 'the end of the matter'.

Exactly the same can be said of the symbolism of the Twelfth for things such as prisons, or hospitals (or religious or other institutions). Sun in the twelfth should never be read as evidence that you will go to prison or spend a lot of time in hospitals, etc - unless it's a horary asked on that subject and the Sun is a signficator for you. I don't take the twelfth as having anything to do with 'spirituality' that's a ninth/third issue. It's more likely on a day to day basis that it involves 'working behind the scenes' if it's you or 'hidden enemies', if it's someone else. Again 'enemy' can range in meanings, and it's far more likely to mean someone whose actions, whether deliberate or not, will work against your interests, than someone working to stab you in the back in a literal sense - context is essential, not paranoia. Lord 12 having an important role in a house sale, is more likely to mean that there is someone whose unseen actions will work against the sale than someone hiding in the bushes waiting to shoot you when you turn up to hand over the keys. In most cases, the first consideration should by that you don't like being the centre of attention and prefer to work in the background.

The prime day to day meaning of the sixth used to be related to servants and small animals. It's role in medical Astrology led to it's connection with the 'disease' or 'illness' but unless you have health issues, that shouldn't be your first port of call. These days few of us have servants, though we do, from time to time, employ builders, plumbers, electricians, car mechanics,etc. The modern approach is to try and push the meaning onto co-workers but I have real doubts on that one, unless the 'co -workers' are part of a team answerable to you. Few of us keep small animals in the traditional sense of being there for food or to supply wool or other materials. But we do keep pets, and for many people, that should be the first meaning that they look to.

In summary, House meanings are wide ranging and which is appropriate depends on the context. That's why it's difficult to do a reading for someone unless they supply a lot of context. Many ask for a 'general' reading but that leaves the Astrologer having to decide which of the many available meanings is appropriate. We tend to go for the most likely in a world in which extreme events do not happen to us every day. The dialogue between Astrologer and client/subject means that the reading is directed to their needs at the time. Any Tarot reader knows that the person who sits down and asks for a reading but refuses to enter a dialogue is the most difficult person to read for. Neither Astrology nor Tarot is 'objective' in that sense.

More on chart reading

Minderwiz noted, in part, "In summary, House meanings are wide ranging and which is appropriate depends on the context....Many ask for a 'general' reading but that leaves the Astrologer having to decide which of the many available meanings is appropriate....The dialogue between Astrologer and client/subject means that the reading is directed to their needs at the time. Any Tarot reader knows that the person who sits down and asks for a reading but refuses to enter a dialogue is the most difficult person to read for. Neither Astrology nor Tarot is 'objective' in that sense."

FIRST; one of the many problems in learning astrology is that books often combine interpretive meanings of various practices such as psychological, hoary, event, physical characteristics, attitude, emotional bias, electional and mundane. It has to be kept in mind that any single natal chart can be read in terms of its layers of meaning or strictly relative to a question.

SECOND; one of the list participants recently asked for a general reading and was disappointed that it did not provide the specific information that was expected or desired. That's the nature of a general reading. Without a context of one's life or desires or situation, the chart could just as well be cast for a rock in one's back yard.

THIRD; once one moves from natal charts to secondary progression or to solar arc directions or solar returns or mundane event charts, the whole approach to reading has to change. You can't read a progressed chart in the same manner as a directed chart....the calculation concepts are quite different and so is the method of reading them. Yet, we see so many examples that gloss over these differences.

All of these reasons are behind the reason why I often express my views in a critical manner....it helps to be quite rigorous in how one learns so that one can take liberties later in their practice. Dave

We're moving away from Sapienza's original question but I think what you just posted is well worth re-emphasising, as it will help both us and others who wish to read and also those seeking a reading.

dadsnook2000 said:

Without a context of one's life or desires or situation, the chart could just as well be cast for a rock in one's back yard.

Click to expand...

I think that should be added to the guidelines for people seeking readings. For a horary reading it's always essential to think long and hard about the question and to ensure that the right question is asked, but the same holds for any natal reading or other reading. The aim should be to create the conditions that will lead to more useful and effective readings.

Thanks again for all the great info. I've been looking on-line today at different web-sites and info about traditional astrology and am really enjoying what I've been reading. One confusing thing though is trying to work out the difference between traditional, classical, hellenistic and medieval astrology. Is there a difference, or does anyone know of somewhere that gives a bit of an overview, or is that where the history of astrology book that was recommended comes in?

Glad to know you're enjoying your research

I don't think there's a precise definition of the terms but I think the following is a reasonably generally agreed division.

Traditional: This is the hardest term to define because it's the most imprecise. I take it as all Astrology before the work of Alan Leo - say before 1890. It could however be easily argued that the dividing line could be drawn a 100 or more years earlier. Traditional therefore covers everything up to Leo.

Classical Astrology is that centred on Greece proper from around the time that the ideas of Mesopotamian Astrologers began to influence Greek thought to around 146 BC when Rome annexed most of the Greek mainland. This includes the period of the great Greek philosophers and the conquests of Alexander the Great which led to a cross fertilisation between Greek, Persian, Egyptian and Indian approaches to Astrology. Again you will find some different periods quoted in other disciplines.

Hellenistic Astrology is that practised between the annexation of Greece and the fall of the Roman Empire but perhaps more accurately that practiced by Astrologers who spoke and wrote in Greek but lived outside Greece, in places such as Alexandria, Antioch and other cities in the Eastern Mediterranean. Ptolemy lived in Alexandiria in Egypt, Dorotheus in Sidon in the Lebanon. For Astrology, Alexandria was probably the principle city.

The Medieval period is generally taken as that between the fall of the Roman Empire (approx 500 AD) to the fall of Constantinople (1453) but in terms of Astrology this is better divided into the Arabic Period, most notably the assembly of 'pagan' texts under the command of the Caliph, Harun al Raschid, which did much to preserve the knowledge of the Greeks and the work of Islamic Scholars such as Masha'allah (who was Jewish), Abu Ma'shar, and Avarroes (Ibn Rushd). From around 750 to 1200, it was the Arab scholars who carried the torch of civilisation and kept the Western branch of Astrology alive.

Trade,the crusades and the Islamic conquest of Spain brought more contact between Western and Eastern Europe and the Middle East and Astrology began to resume it's place as a proper scholarly subject, especially in the art of medicine. It also brought Aristotle and Plato back into Western Europe and the Astrological ideas that are present in their works. Guido Bonatti is probably the most notable thirteenth century Astrolger but it's clear from Chaucer and Roger Bacon that Astrological ideas had taken a strong hold amongst the educated classes.

Historians tend to class 'modern' as beginning at the Renaissance at the end of the fifteenth century but for Astrology, that is based dated from Leo. So Astrologers such as Lilly and Morin have much more in common with Arab and Hellenistic ideas than anything that would be remotely recognised as modern Astrology. Indeed most of the texts they used were translations of Arab or Greek Astrologers (the latter having first been translated into Arabic) and the only Greek Astrologer they were really familar with was Ptolemy.

Obviously these periods are generalisations and should not be treated as clear cut. Also I've really dealt with what we would call scholarly Astrology, that which would be taught in places of learning.

Hope that helps