View Full Version : Lost and Found

21-05-2003, 23:44
A few days ago I posted an experience I had recently had in the Divination forum and asked for some help.


Briefly, I had mislaid two items - the Death card out of my old Mandala Astrological Tarot and an important photo Album containing pictures of me as a youngster and pictures of my grandmother, with whom I have a psychic connection. These items were mislaid at widely separate dates but 'suddenly' turned up together last Saturday on top of a filing cabinet.

In the ensuing thread Astraea suggested I did a horary reading in order to seek the underlying meaning of the event.

Having embarked on that I felt it best to transfer the discussion of the horary to this forum.

Although Astraea kindly offered to help me brainstorm the horary chart, please don't feel that this is a two person dialogue. I'd welcome other observations or even just queries about method and process.

The chart is based on the time of my first post in the Divination forum - I didn't time the actual event (although I have a rough idea and will be looking at possibilities) For those of you with Astrological software the information is:

Time 16:16 BST (1 hour before GMT)
Date: 18th May 2003
Place: Standish, Lancashire, England 002W40, 53N35

For those of you who don't have the necessary software I'll try posting the chart on the Web and put in a link to the site.

22-05-2003, 00:41
The link to the horary chart is given below


The question is: Is my grandmother sending me a message through the 'coincidental' discovery of the two items, and if so what is the meaning of the message.

The chart has Libra rising and could well be taken as descriptive of me as I'm Sun sign Libra.

Lilly places several tests on the chart being radical - that is fit to be read. Firstly, if very early or very late degrees of a sign is evidence that the chart is not radical - in this case the chart is safely radical.

The chart also fails to be radical if the Moon is Void of Course (does not make another major aspect before it leaves its current sign) - At 2 degrees of Capricorn, the Moon will make major Aspects so again the Chart is radical. The chart is also non-radical if Saturn is in the seventh - here it isin the ninth - so again I take the chart as fit to be read. The final test relates to the Moon and something called the Via Combusta - basically the middle of Libra to the middle of Scorpio - if the Moon is in this area the chart is not radical. As the Moon is in Capricorn this test is also succesfully met.

We can read the chart and get meaning out of it. I am signified by Venus. The question relates to my movable property and despite the spiritual/occult significance of the event I have decided, with Astraea's help, to go along with the tradition of the Second House rulership. The lost property is therefore signified by Jupiter.

I have decided to allow for at least two other significators - one for my wife, whose actions were instrumental in the discovery and who may well be bound up in the answer. The other for my grandmother, whose pscychic link may account for the discovery. Unfortunately both marriage partner and maaternal grandmother are ruled by the seventh House. I can't use the same significator for both so I think that I will take the ruler of the Seventh (Mars) as the significator of my wife and the Moon in Capricorn as the significator of my grandmother.

The Moon is always a significator in a horary chart and in this case I am using it as a significator of the object of my question - is there a message from my grandmother.

22-05-2003, 00:54
Minderwiz, I am going to ponder the chart and will post further after doing so. Thank you for taking the trouble to post the chart, as well as the coordinates.

22-05-2003, 00:56
Having set the scene and produced the chart. There is one seemingly straightforwad conclusion to be drawn.

The Moon is in the third House (dealing with communications) and it is in an applying trine to Venus, my significator. This would seem to provide a positive indication that there is a meaningful message being sent.

The issue now is to work out what is the meaning or significance.

Astraea, I used Placidus Houses for the chart - which is my normal practice. And lots of thanks for the help.

22-05-2003, 01:02
Thank you for the house system information. Moon applying to Venus already underscores the importance of your wife's involvement in the entire question. More later.

22-05-2003, 04:03
Hi, Minderwiz. I have examined the chart and have a few thoughts.

1). I find Mars, not Jupiter, to be the ruler of your possessions (as Scorpio is on the cusp of the second house of movable goods). Mars is in the fourth house of the home, where it conjoined Neptune in a fixed sign at about the time your items went missing (from the symbolic perspective, fixed signs, and the degrees separating planets in them, typically refer to long periods of time between events).

While I use the classical seven planets as the main significators in horary charts, I view the modern planets as influences conditioning the events/circumstances in question. Neptune here would thus suggest, not simply mental fogginess or strangeness surrounding the disappearance of your items, but a spiritual significance associated with their loss.

Moreover, since Mars is the ruler of your 7th (maternal grandmother), the conjunction of Mars with Neptune -- otherworldly circumstances -- in the 4th house of the home (which also refers to the deepest substrata of your psyche, the grave, and the "end of the matter") suggests a conjoining of your grandmother's energy with the missing items, and the role they were to play in your life.

2). Your wife seems to be not only a catalyst, but a pivotal player in this drama. Her ruler (Moon, in order to differentiate her from your grandmother) is in Capricorn in the 3rd house of communication, where she translates the light of Saturn (her dispositor, and the ruler of your 4th house -- a culmination) to Venus: yourself. She is literally the bearer of the message, the carrier of meaning. Indeed, she is identified with your maternal grandmother, since the house that would normally signify your wife is the abode of the maternal grandmother in this chart. And even though this would be true of any question a married person asked regarding a maternal grandmother, the fact remains that this relationship is highlighted in -- and shown to be central to -- your question

3). Your grandmother's nature can be seen by Mars' condition, placement and aspects. In the 4th house of your deepest being, conjunct Neptune, Mars' presence signifies your psychospiritual -- and ongoing -- connection with your grandmother; Mars, her ruler, is in Aquarius, traditionally ruled by Saturn (which, as the Moon's dispositor, is a further indication of your wife's central role in these events). Your grandmother was in all probability a woman whose serious, even profound, intellect was not afforded a warm welcome while she was alive, and now finds expression in you.

This is confirmed by Saturn's placement in the 9th house of the chart -- your work as a college lecturer plays an important role here, because your 9th is your grandmother's 3rd house of communication. In a sense, she speaks through you. She also speaks through your wife, with Moon translating the light of Saturn to Venus, and also to Mercury (natural ruler of communication, and ruler of the 9th and 12 [!] houses in this chart: otherworldly communication, input and association of a deep and profound order).

Your grandmother is further described as someone whose environment afforded few opportunities for meaningful communication, since Mercury squares Mars and opposes Jupiter in Leo in the 10th house -- authority figures, perhaps even kings; certainly, a societal status quo.

With Mars conjunct Neptune, your grandmother was a deeply intuitive, aware individual who must have suffered greatly under such repression. She no doubt enjoys -- even thrives through -- your participation in astrology, tarot and other metaphysical pursuits, and her "hand" in the loss of the Death card (seen through Saturn's placement, as above) seems clear.

Your intimate ties with your grandmother are shown to be representative of the stream of continuity from life-to-life which we experience with our loved ones and close associates, on this side of the veil and the other.

4). If we consider the 9th house as the ruler of tarot cards, per se, we again see the connection of Saturn (classical ruler of death) with the missing Death card, and the fact that your wife (Moon) was literally responsible for your finding the card (Moon translates Saturn to Venus -- you), even though you were "assigned" to discover her own lost item.

5). As the 2nd of the 7th, your wife's possessions and your grandmother's are also identified in the 8th house of the chart: your wife's photo, and the photo album embracing memories of your grandmother. With Venus ruling the 8th, you discovered the photo/album/Death card when your wife (Moon) occasioned that event.

6). The lunar nodes are in the 29th degree -- a fateful degree, signifying the culmination of a process (again, there is the connection your wife's ruler in these events).

The significations go on and on -- many pages could be written about this chart.

In a nutshell, my view is that your original intuition is correct, and subject to amplification: you are encouraged to think more seriously about pursuits which have heretofore seemed to you peripheral, and not as significant as your customary forms of work and thought. There is no need to abandon the former, so long as you integrate the latter in a conscious and honoring manner. Do not assign "basement status" to your own psychic nature, but incorporate it more fully into your life; whether or not you seek a new career along those lines is up to you -- what is essential, is for you to integrate both sides of your being, and to honor each equally. Take care that you do not repress your own spiritual and creative gifts; see these as ways to continue sharing wisdom with others, and as a way to expand your own -- and others' -- worlds (including your grandmother's).

22-05-2003, 06:42


Thanks for the post - I've not really had much time to look through the chart but I don't think that I would have got half of that, even if I had.

Thanks for pointing out my error - I was in a bit of a rush and looked at the third cusp not the second (well that's my excuse LOL).

You've reversed significators for wife and grandmother over my intial stab and I think if I'd realised the house ruler error I would have gone for your interpretation because it fits at more than one level, rather than mine which is somewhat arbitrary.

I'll read through and get back to you.

22-05-2003, 07:05
I believe that the main focus of the seventh house in this chart is your grandmother, and thus the reversed rulerships with regard to Moon/Mars. Often the chart, itself, will lead you: it might have been read either way, but the Mars/Grandmother connection seems to provide very pointed information, especially with Mars ruling the 2nd house.

22-05-2003, 08:01
Just a couple of points:

I did try an event/horary for the approximate time of the discovery of the album and death card. I found that the chart was non-radical and even adjusting the time for a possible range it remained non-radical for the possible time range.

The posing of the question in the forum is therefore the proper time for the horary.

Secondly with Mars in the fourth the items would be found in the home and in Aquarius (Air sign) would be in a relatively high place The top of my filing cabinet is one of the highest places in the room (beaten only by the top of my bookshelves).

Mars/Neptune is also assertion through spiritual means - which is what she did to draw my attention and indeed what I think I have to do to achieve what she wants.

Saturn is also the ruling planet of my natal chart - being conjunct my Leo Ascendant, My wife is also Capricorn and the Capricorn Moon fits there. I choose to assign her to Mars because I felt that the partner probably took precedence over the grandmother as the seventh house signified person. Though you are quite right that both are brought together by the Seventh. I have no date of birth for my grandmother but from the records but she was seven months old at the 1881 Census in March. This suggests either a Leo or Virgo birth. My Ascendant is Leo, my Daughter's is Virgo.

The Horary Moon was also 2 minutes past an exact trine to my natal Part of Fortune - again linking my wife to my own well being and health. And horary Venus (my significator) is 44 minutes off my natal Part of Fortune again emphasising the point. I also think it was the Moon's transit of the Part of Fortune that triggered the process of bringing the question to the fore.

Horary Mars (my grandmother's significator) was 36 minutes past an opposition to natal Pluto - there is a tranformation process being initiated here and as natal Pluto is in the twelfth this will clearly have a spiritual dimension.

You drew attention to the Nodes in the 29th degree - the horary South Node also conjuncts Natal Jupiter by 14 minutes and the North Node is inconjunct my Natal Sun by 1 minute. Their role in the horary as indicating the culmination of a process also relates directly to my own creativity and personal growth.

I also see a large predominance of close but separating aspects in the Transist chart for the horary time. It clearly is a time of release.

I will get back to you on my thoughts on your analysis of my grandmother's character later.

22-05-2003, 09:00
Yes, the time of your post produces a chart that is radical in all respects -- even to the Sun (ruler of Leo, your natal Ascendant) ruling the day, and Venus (your significator) ruling the hour! It is such a blessing when all indications point in the same direction.

My thought right along has been that your grandmother was a Leo. The reason is that when you described a sense that your grandmother was unhappy about your discovery that she was probably born out of wedlock, I got a powerful feeling of wounded pride and shame (indeed, mortification); the thought struck me that this was a very leonine reaction.

The fact that your Ascendant is Leo, coupled with your strong tie to your grandmother's spirit, lends emphasis to the probability of her being a Leo native. Her natal Sun falling in either your 1st or 12th (probably conjunct your Asc/Saturn position) makes sense. Further, she is ruled by an Aquarian Mars in the horary -- Leo being the opposite of Aquarius, contrasting her condition then and now; almost an astrological pun.

A passionate, intuitive, intellectual and creative woman (perhaps born out of wedlock, and/or in some other socially stigmatized position), at the turn of the 20th century, would indeed have had a rough time of it.

22-05-2003, 21:19
I'm fairly sure of the Leo Sun, Its technically possible that she might have been Virgo and also possible that she might have been late Cancer but Leo feels right to me.

I have not much to go on in terms of her early life - though her father became a fairly well to do merchant in Manchester and she in turn married the heir to a sizeable furniture manufacturing company. Her married years were quite comfortable with servants and a Rolls Royce - though I feel that she still felt constrained by this - I think she would have wanted to have a career of her own.

Unfortunately her husband having inherited the business lost all the assets through bad business plus women and, I think gambling. They split up and she took on the responsibility of the Children (though I think they were nearing adulthood).

I believe you are right in terms of her interest in the Occult - I know my Mum went to a seance and I have a feeling that other family members went with her. Certainly my mother's belief system allowed for that area of life and showed a real interest and I can only think that she in turn took it from her Mother (and her grandmother).

22-05-2003, 23:22
Your grandmother must have been an extremely capable and resourceful woman, with a very rich inner life. She is so fortunate to have found appreciation like yours, at any stage of her life.