View Full Version : ok, i give up...help!!

05-06-2003, 11:59
ya know, i've been struggling to wrap my brain around this T Square for over a year now...(not continuously, but since over a year ago) and i'm pretty much ready to give up...

you see, i was talking w/my astrologer friend...and she knows i generally prefer to figure things out on my own & will give me "hints" on things to look at...

so, we were talking and i mentioned getting my natal done for the last time around 22 yrs of age and how the astrologer had gone on about the amt of trines in my chart (and the grand trines), but barely mentioned the T Square (even though she had made note of it on the back of my chart)...so, my friend said this person must have been a "beginner" to go on about the trines, when it was the squares and especially the T Square that was where the "meat" was...

so, i asked her about it, and she did give me a few nudges in the right direction, but i really just cannot get it!!! it's driving me to the point of madness, i swear...

what's the big deal about the T Square? i know that the apex planet is the main focus and that it "activates" the energy of the opposing planets (or something like that)...but i don't understand how that relates to ME and my life...if mine didn't involve any personal planets, i probably wouldn't think about it too much, but it does...so...

heeeeellllllllpppppppp!!! :(

for those that need it, here's my birth info:

March 29, 1972 3:36am Elizabeth, NJ USA

see, it's my Sun & Moon opposing w/Jupiter being the squared planet (in Capricorn, no less)...

anyone care to help me on this? please? pretty please?? w/sugar on top???


Baby Owl
05-06-2003, 13:23
Azure, here are a few thoughts about your T-square.

First, I would say it is not a particularly strong T-square, for the following reasons:
- It does not involve more than 3 planets.
- The planets are not within a tight orb (7 deg. CAP, 8 deg. PIS, 3 deg. LIB)
- None of the squares is exact.
- The focal planet (Jupiter) is not at the midpoint of the two opposing planets.

A T-square typically provides motivation and achievement, but can also result in wasted energy or an unfavorable expression of energy. In The Art of Chart Interpretation, Tracy Marks describes people with T-squares as being out of balance, "like a 3-legged table," leaning too much in one direction, that direction being that of the focal planet.

Have you observed the effects of your T-Square in 11th house, 2nd house, or 8th house matters? Are you able to express the positive traits of your focal planet (Jupiter in Capricorn)?

Another area to look at is the empty space (opposite the focal planet). In this case, that would be the 5th house. This area needs to be consciously developed in a positive manner, because your tendency will be to focus on the are of the focal planet instead.

I don't know if this is helpful to you or not, but maybe gives you some things to consider.

Baby Owl

05-06-2003, 13:32
i think you meant 8 deg. ARIES, no? my Sun is 8 Aries...

as for it not being strong, it's the only one i've got *shrugs*

thanks for the food for thought...i've already looked into the 5th house thing...

eh, i give up...nevermind...one day i'll get it...

many blessings,


Baby Owl
05-06-2003, 14:18
Originally posted by azuremariposa
i think you meant 8 deg. ARIES, no? my Sun is 8 Aries...

Egads! Of course...I just kept staring at the chart and on it, the sun glyph looks like it's in Pisces instead of Aries. Sorry 'bout that!

The reason I mentioned that the T-square might not be strong is that might explain why you aren't able to get the sense of great importance your friend implies.

05-06-2003, 14:53
she never said it was greatly important...just that it had more potential for energy than all of those trines...and i can't get a sense of it b/c i have a hard time assimilating exactly what it's supposed to do...but like i said, nevermind...i'll figure it out eventually, and if i don't it's no great tragedy...at this point i think i'm utterly sick of looking at my own chart (have been for a year now, actually), so perhaps that has something to do w/it?


05-06-2003, 22:29
T squares are drivers - they are made up of the irritants, squares and oppositions - so they are an urget o action. However one should not overplay this and assume that the T square is your dominant characteristic and all else is secondary.

With Sun, Moon and Jupiter you are not going to get the irritant factor that you might have if Saturn or Mars was involved, or for that matter Mercury (which would drive you to communication and mental activity or to travel or to do some education) - or Pluto or Uranus. You could not really get a more 'light hearted T square than these three.

That being said it is a Cardinal T Square and this might well add to the motivatation you to say, run your own business and the second, ninth and eleventh Houses are succedent, concerned with stabilising energy and turning it into some sort of concrete expression. The second - eighth opposition is a pull between on the one hand stabilising your material possessions and talents one on the other a pull to merge with another in some way - to share talents and possessions or to engage in occult activites.

There is depths to the eighth house activites, strong subconscious desires - made even more intense with the Moon here. The urge to grow through friendships and associations (Jupiter in 11th) may well find these subconscious needs something of a limiting factor. The eleventh is also in many ways a house of sharing - friendships, associations, membership of organsiations and groupings involves merging to an extent. However your Sun is in the second and there is a strong drive (Aries) to be creative in a material sense (that is not necessarily wealth accumulation - it could be to physically create using talents and skills) however the second is concenred with you not others. Again there will be a pull against the Jupiter influence.

Your challenge is almost literally to square the circle - find a way of harmonising your personal needs, your subconscious needs and your social needs. If you look opposite the eleventh there is the fifth - possible ways of squaring the circle then lie in sports, pastimes, hobbies, romance, children.... All of which will bring you together with others but allow you to be yourself. Also the Sun is the natural ruler of the fifth so you might well be able to release that creativity through fifth house activities.

Baby Owl
06-06-2003, 00:56
Minderwiz wrote: Your challenge is almost literally to square the circle - find a way of harmonising your personal needs, your subconscious needs and your social needs. If you look opposite the eleventh there is the fifth - possible ways of squaring the circle then lie in sports, pastimes, hobbies, romance, children.... All of which will bring you together with others but allow you to be yourself. Also the Sun is the natural ruler of the fifth so you might well be able to release that creativity through fifth house activities.

Well said, Minderwiz!

Azure -- I understand what you are saying about being tired of studying your chart. You might find it interesting to look at T-squares in other people's charts when you get an opportunity. Maybe some of the people in this forum would comment on how they see their T-squares?

06-06-2003, 01:08
thank you Minderwiz, that was very helpful indeed...

Baby Owl, my son also has a T Square, so perhaps I'll look over his, thanks...


06-06-2003, 06:40
My views on your chart may be contrary to those expressed earlier.
*** I would consider your Sun opposition to Moon as quite personal, especially as the Sun is your next-rising astrological planet. SUN-opposite-MOON puts the whole male-female, me-you, assertive-receptive set of symbol-expressions into high focus. How is this polarity to be accomodated in your life? There are several factors here. 1) Mercury Rx is close and closing to your Sun: There will be a "trueness" to your preceptions and words. 2) Moon-conjunct-Pluto brings an intensity of emotions and need for expression and acceptance: You wear your heart on your sleeve and take feelings seriously. You have to understand them and why they flow through you and others. 3) Moon-Pluto trines Mars-Saturn. There is a go-stop-go factor here. Perhaps spontaneous outbursts have been detrimental and you have adapted a self-discipline or personality trait in which you think before leaping. This Saturn opposes Neptune: you can build bridges between fantasy and reality, you can link the practical with the spiritual. This factor builds on the need to understand underlying emotions and how the Sun-Moon polarity works in you and in others. 4) The square from Jupiter to Sun and Moon suggests that your philosophy and ability to expand your experiences and understandings is tied to the process of integrating mind and feelings. By grasping the whole you can enrich the details for yourself and for others.
*** Now, if we look at planetary containments we can learn some more helpful details. Jupiter-Sun-Mercury sequence: Your deep views are infused with creative power and strongly expressed. Sun-Mercury-Venus: Your core values are articulated artistically and have balance and harmony. Mercury-Venus-Mars: Thoughts and plans are carefully crafted and aggressively and creatively expressed. Venus-Mars-Saturn: Artistic sensitivites are creatively expressed through specific channels or skills in a professional and detailed manner. Etc. Now, I've viewed your website -- YOU ARE LIVING YOUR CHART. That is not to say that these symblols cannot be expanded and modified. But, you are being true to your self, your personality is creatively expressing itself though a sensitive set of channels (business ventures) to help others. Continued good luck. Thanks for sharing your chart. Dave.

06-06-2003, 07:36
yowza! thank you soooo much dads...i agree completely w/what you've stated here, and i appreciate you taking the time to break it down for me in such an easy to comprehend manner...

my Sun opposition to Moon is definitely personal and has always had a strong presence in my life...i've been trying to nail that "live your sun, satisfy your moon" philosophy and it's not always easy when those two are opposites (imagine how much easier it might be to have an Aries Sun & a Leo Moon!! lol...well, no i wouldn't wanna imagine that...heh, but you get my point)...

the Sun/Mercury thing? absolutely! and especially w/Uranus where it is and my Aqua AC "trueness" is extremely important in all ways...

oy, that Moon-conj-Pluto thing is one of my favourite aspects, but you know, i get into so much trouble b/c of it! :D seems like my whole life i've been trying to achieve a better understanding of my feelings and those of others...the deeper i dig, the more i find, eh? and yes, i do wear my heart on my sleeve (completely and totally...on my face as well)

the "go-stop-go" thing made me think of frogger, the old videogame...if you just blaze across you can get eaten by a gator, sink and drown, etc....but if you take your time, weigh your options, you can always make it to your "lilypad" :D i like how you link the Saturn-opposing-Neptune to the previous Moon-trine-Pluto...gonna have to give that one more thought :)

now, here's the "meat"...by integrating the mind and feelings i can expand (jupiter) my experiences and understandings? now that i like and that i can understand...i knew Jupiter could bring expansion, "blowing things up" but not in a destructive sense, more in a "zoom in" sense...

now, as for the rest, all i can say is: yes, Yes!, & YES!! :D i'm honoured you took a look at my site and i must admit it has grown out of my desires and my goals to: help people by showing them how they can improve their lives; help them discover more about themselves in order to bring about changes they would like; have a creative outlet that will also help pay the bills...

thank you, again, dads, for your insight...ya know, all of this is stuff i know, but sometimes it helps just to have someone smack ya upside the head and say "look!!" :D and many thanks for helping me get a handle on the T square thing and how the energies relate to each other...(can i say thank you one more time??)

thank you!!

much love and many blessings,


edited to add: of course, it also helps that i am in a much better mood today than i was yesterday :D :*

07-06-2003, 05:03

A really good reading - thanks for sharing it with the forum as well as Azure.

Don't really see anything contrary to the previous posts - although those were confined to the T square. You show nicely that taking one factor, such as the T square on its own is not enough in a chart reading - there are always other things to take note of and to integrate into the final reading.

07-06-2003, 05:29
My sense of "contrary" was that the T-square was significant and that the Sun-Moon opposition was personal. Of course, its all a matter of degree as readings are as much a personal veiw and art form as a science or standard technique. In all, I think our combined efforts have helped Azure--- get a handle on some of the dynamics of her chart. I know I get blindsided reading my own chart at times -- and particularly Tarot readings about me. Dave.

07-06-2003, 05:41

Thanks for the reply - I wasn't disagreeing with your views, quite the contrary, I thought they provide greater depth than the one I put in - I tended to keep to the T square per se, you expanded and took other areas into account and got quite a lot more out of it.

As you say readings are something of an art form and I found your interpretation really interesting.

07-06-2003, 05:53
absolutely! everyone did help and i thank you all very much!! :D

i've always seen my Sun-Moon opposition as something personal, and my astrologer friend has over 30 yrs experience, so i don't think she would have told me to look at something if it wasn't significant...

my thoughts on this whole thing, though? there are lots of different astrologers with lots of different methods (i mean, look at all the house systems there are out there!! it's ridiculous!!)...so, not every astrologer would see importance in every aspect...which is why, i think, certain people don't get much out of astrology and other people get so much out of it that they become astrologers themselves! :D i think alot of it depends on the astrologer they end up having contact with, how well the astrologer's methods mesh with the person's own view of themselves and their impressions of astrology in general by way of the astrologer...

myself, the first astrology books i ever read (fluff, but i still love them) were Linda Goodman's books...they were written for the average person to gain a better understanding of how astrology relates to one's life...i've read a few other books since and have enjoyed them all, but i still love the way Goodman wrote to the average person...when people get caught up in technical talk, my brain freezes and i zone-out...blah...my mind doesn't function that way...

the first astrologer i went to (back when i was 16) was really nice and helped me understand enough things about my personality to realize that i'm not so crazy afterall...

second natal i had done at 22 was the same...i had more insight into various aspects...that particular astrologer introduced the asteroids to me and the part of fortune (which i know a few astrologers don't really use)...i *like* the idea of finding karmic influences in my chart...so this is what i'm studying now...

my astrologer friend doesn't deal w/the karmic side of it...by every conversation i've had w/her about my chart has significantly changed my life...she never ceases to amaze me by breaking down the bits and pieces that i need to know NOW that will help me along in the time to come...

from my experience on different astrology boards, i've only met 2 other astrologers who talk like her, who disseminate their knowledge so effectively...it's a rarity, i know...

and this is not to say that i haven't witnessed other extremely talented astrologers...i just think some have a true gift for it...just like tarot...some have a true gift for reading the cards...some have a true gift for reading runes...we all have a specialty somewhere i think...

in either case, thank you all very much and sorry for the length of this post!! lol...i get carried away sometimes...:P

much love and many blessings,


Baby Owl
10-06-2003, 07:31
Hello again, Azure!

I feel like I need to clarify that I was not saying your T-square was not significant when I said it wasn't "strong." I was trying to suggest that its effects might be subtle, that its manifestations might not "hit you over the head," and perhaps that was why you were having trouble tapping into or understanding its energy.

It seems that your astrologer is telling you it's worth your while to continue to seek understanding in this area, and with that I think we would all agree.