But what does it MEAN ?

I have no idea.

What I want to know is - you have a card in front of you.

What defines its meaning ? The book ? The picture you see ? Your background ? The background of the person who created it ? Where, ultimately, does the meaning come from ?

I think particularly of cards created way back when (this thought came from another thread) when the creator would have thought very differently about the world than we do today. If, for instance, there had been (maybe is) a deck created by someone who "knew" the world was flat and/or revolved around the sun; who "knew" that women are intellectually inferior to men - and the like - does that in any way colour what we see years later - does it in some way come across because that was what went through the creator's mind when the card was created ? And if not - what else may we have lost of the original intent ?

Or is it all in what WE see ? (as many here will know, I go by what I see, basically...) Or how much is in the "accepted" meanings anyway ?

And - what implications does this have for the old chestnut thing - "but I read intuitively" - I don't actually say that any more, but I do know that some here call it that when what they mean is that they discount generic meanings.

Is "your own meaning" paramount ? (I realise it has to count for a lot, or we could all just look it up in books.) Do you think you get something from the background prevailing when the deck was created ? Do you "decide" what the card means when you see it ?

What a lot of questions; this is a huge question for me..... Now I expect answers. Postcards not necessary.

My meanings come from my life..

We went out for a walk yesterday afternoon here in Lisbon, to see a few exhibitions, have a coffee, cake... and stumbled into an 18th Century church and sat down and I looked up and over the altar was a baroque sculpture of a woman holding a broken column and I thought "Oh look! Fortitude from the Minchiate!"

And the Minchiate I was thinking of is from 1725 and the Basillica is from the mid-later part of the 18th Century so I think it is feasible to compare.

And I thought she must be there - billowing on a marble cloud over the altar - to signify a certain crisis of faith. Strength as our ability to stay firm in what we believe (perhaps?) And I take this on board and it becomes a part of my repertoire of meanings. And I only left home for a cake and look what I stumbled upon.

And I feel this so much with my tarot cards. All my experiences looking at Art, allegorical sculpture, engraving, feed back into my tarot reading. Or I read for someone the other day and when I interpreted the Hermit as an idol, someone we idolise or who holds the lantern of inspiration for us, and it chimed with the querent and then that too gets taken on board as an acceptable meaning to possibly draw on in the future. I have had the Queen of Cups in the Thoth - behind her misty veil - signify repressed homosexuality. These things get taken on board and that is where meanings come from... But then each time you turn the card over you have to still think carefully because something may leap out which is relevant to that question and that question only.

So I would say the meanings come from past readings and my non-tarot mental storehouse; Western imagery, iconography and its symbolism, then a good, long, hard look at the card in question. I have to say - and you can call me elitist if you like - I tend to think it's good to have a decent working knowledge of religious and western iconography to see where these archetypes come from and how they have been reworked. People will say that's rubbish, but I don't think you can go wrong by knowing just that little bit more about what these images originally were. I think it makes those meanings we create for ourselves that little bit more rounded...

I'd agree that a background really helps (though I know some ace readers who have "none".)

But - what if the creator of a deck's beliefs were totally opposite to yours. Anathema, even. Do you think any feel of that would get across and colour what you saw ?

Like some people cannot use the Thoth because they (say they) feel evil coming from it. I suspect this is at least in part the result of what they have heard of Uncle Al - but is it possible that it isn't ?
That one could actually - channel ? - involuntarily - even unconsciously - what the creator had in mind - and that if that were in fact vile (NOT the Thoth here !) - that would come through ?

I have lots of thoughts on this, but have a migraine, so will start with my first reaction.

I'm an artist. When I'm creating something, its mine. I have intentions, ideas, feelings. But when its done, and someone loves it enough to buy it, it becomes theirs. I feel very strongly that my intentions don't matter anymore, at least not to them. They can ask. I might even answer, but not always. Because when I sell it I let it go. It becomes whatever the viewer/buyer needs/wants it to be.

An example. I created a painting several years ago about my feelings about 9/11. It was quite abstract, but to me it was clearly a Tower card. I could see, in my strokes of paint, the spirits of the fallen. I could plainly see the towers. I saw darkness and change and fear.

A friend saw the painting and loved it. She felt calm and peace and beauty from it, and bought it to hang in her massage room.

She asked me what it meant, and what I'd felt when making it. I didn't tell her. I told her it didn't matter anymore, and I meant it. I told her that if she really, really wanted to know, I'd share it. But she thought about it awhile and decided that I was right (for her) and she didn't need to know.

That makes so much sense.

I had this with an artist once - of a deck - when someone saw something in a card he had not intended, he said OK, he never thought of that, but if he HAD, he WOULD have intended it, and now he felt it too...

Take care of that migraine...

For me, I am influenced by the numerology, elemental aspects of the suit and the image on the card. That is to say, that part of the image that leaps out and screams in my mind. If nothing comes to mind at all, then I think about what, say "two" or "five" means to me. Or the characteristics that I associate with that particular court card - the rank, the suit/element. Or the correspondences that go with a particular major.

As I go on thinking, I usually fix on one thought with an almost tangible "Ahhh, that one", and it's amplified by "and that, a little" - until I have what the card means to me in that particular reading, that day.

I generally know very little about the creators of the decks I prefer. I'm not sure if this is deliberate or not. (I know very little about the singers and bands I prefer either... just that I like their music). I am not sure I would be influenced adversely if it should be that the deck creator held beliefs I found anathema to my own. I think, more likely, that I would tell myself that I am free to see anything with my own eyes and not through someone else's. Yes, the deck creator's vision affects what he puts on the card - but my vision interprets that image in the light of my own character, beliefs and knowledge - which may be very different to that creator's. I mean - Uncle Al would find me facile in the extreme - but he would never deny me the right to read his deck in my own way!

Everything I am, do, see and experience affects how I read tarot. I do not see that a reader can keep tarot in a seperate mental compartment and not have his or her readings coloured by themselves in some way.

i suppose that each of us will have different associations and experiances which we will then project onto a scene in the card, what does that means to us as an individual, I think it would be very difficult not to or at least we need to be aware of it and be careful not to be restricted by that association.

I tend as a novice to say what I see in the card, I am guided by the suit, numbers etc and I will think about what it means to me, what do I see in the card that speaks to me but as a novice I will invariably go check in the book lol. There are times when I just dont feel the book meaning is for me in a reading and I disagree with it, then I go with my gut (hold my breath and wait for the sitter to tell me im a moron and she/he doesnt know what im talking about) but so far it seems to work out quite well thankfully...

I can see what you mean about losing the orginal meaning as times change, but as Tarot is meant to be a tool to bring out what is within us already perhaps the only thing is what it means to the reader/sitter as it is bringing out thier inner knowing

I mean is there a right or wrong interpretation of each card? perhaps we may be biased in our reading ie have something dominant in our mind and every reading is about that type thing or we turn the meanings to suit what we want but thats not about the cards thats about our bias or single mindeness....

Interesting and i dont think I know the answer im just kinda pondering....

Wendywu said:

For me, I am influenced by the numerology, elemental aspects of the suit and the image on the card. That is to say, that part of the image that leaps out and screams in my mind. If nothing comes to mind at all, then I think about what, say "two" or "five" means to me. Or the characteristics that I associate with that particular court card - the rank, the suit/element. Or the correspondences that go with a particular major.

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So a lot for you comes from "learned" knowledge ?

But what I meant about the creators so whether what they felt or intended can come through - even if we don't know about them, their time in history and so on ?

gregory said:

I'd agree that a background really helps (though I know some ace readers who have "none".)

But - what if the creator of a deck's beliefs were totally opposite to yours. Anathema, even. Do you think any feel of that would get across and colour what you saw ?

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Of course. I suppose I just interpreted the O.P as "But what does it MEAN (for you)?"

To be honest, I cannot imagine feeling anathema to a deck creater's thinking. Unless it was nazi or something. I find that I can prettty much accept and contemplate other views and take a deck on it own merits and feel if it is coherent or not.

I have to say though, I would having difficult finding meanings for the Motherpeace or heavily feminist decks, Crone etc. They are not anathema to me. I don't speak their language and they don't speak mine. In terms of finding meanings for them, I'm not sure how successful I would be.

gregory said:

But what I meant about the creators so whether what they felt or intended can come through - even if we don't know about them, their time in history and so on ?

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I would say no. I shall lay my neck on the line and say "no".

Just as I don't think we can truly understand what is the true meaning behind Renaissance art or African sculpture. We don't have that mindset. We think we can (either that or we say it doesn't matter, it is what I think that's important.)

But I genuinely do not believe that we can entirely get inside something historically speaking. I am thinking of art, literature and by extension, tarot. However, something created within our own lifespan, with our cultural references, then we might just stand a chance. But, no, I don't think I can ever truly know what exactly Mr Vieville was trying to convey to his contemporaries and, subsequently, 300 years later, to me.

I know people will disagree - and that's fine - but I think the only route you can go down is "it doesn't matter" and I shall make the deck my own.