Deck criticism - how do we feel about it? split from: Most Under-rated Decks?

This conversation was started in this thread (click) in the Tarot Decks forum.

Sulis - Tarot Decks / Talking Tarot co-moderator
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Scion my friend, knowing you personally adds some spice to your posts because I can envisage you actually saying it. You know in that infectious way thats usually at double the speed of a normal person... brilliant.

I have to agree about the trends and cycles. But your particular take of the recent Vamp trends certainly had some extra bite to it, but then you don't have a personal stake involved, you're simply lamenting the wimpyness of today's vampires. Regrettably nowadays fangs ain't what they used to be.

On a more serious note however, I agree with many of the comments about the the fickle and questionable value of tarots equivalent of one hit wonders, or in context , short lived hit wonders. But I really wonder at why its such a big deal. The volume and degree of resentment that seems to be generated on these posts seem out of all proportion. Tarot deck purchaces represents, what, a half tank of gas? In the vast majority of cases you can access reference to some if not all the images of a deck prior to buying it, so any real disappointment should be avoidable. If you have any doubts, or any real pain from the finances might result, then don't buy it. But if others do buy it, because they genuinely like the theme or are simply responding to the marketing hype as is often suggested, so what? The only real negative is that one may have to spend a little more time wading through an increasing quantity of options, and dismissing what you personally regards as dross, to find those that match our personal tastes or criteria of worthiness.

Personally I do agree with the underlying premiss though and find that temporary popularity is symptomatic of and a sad reflection of society's shallowness in the wider sense, and that conditions manifests itself in tarot via such decks, but even so its not some kind of personal tragedy that can only be exorcised via these threads.

I can't quite understand why so many threads and posts here are dedicated to ridiculing and constantly finding fault. Not this one particularly but certainly it's sister one and many others. Of course there are faults (in anyone's personal opinion) and before anyone says it, NO I'm not suggesting that only glowing praise should be allowed and that anything negative should be prohibited. Thats a tired cliché of a response that spouted like a mantra here. But any faults that you do feel a deck has doesn't exactly mess up your quality of life does it. As I said, most disappointment can be avoided, but if it does creep through, then trade the damn thing. Sometimes these threads sound like a Jerry Springer show, it may be entertaining if you like that sort of thing but I don't think it contributes anything of value to Tarot from Aeclectic's point of view. The amount of time and energy thats waisted moaning and bitching on these threads (yes me included) would be better spent with the decks you do like, or in my case actually getting on with some work which could be finished sooner (and hopefully won't be bitched about

cirom said:

Personally I do agree with the underlying premiss though and find that temporary popularity is symptomatic of and a sad reflection of society's shallowness in the wider sense, and that conditions manifests itself in tarot via such decks, but even so its not some kind of personal tragedy that can only be exorcised via these threads.

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Truer words have never been spoken.

cirom said:

I can't quite understand why so many threads and posts here are dedicated to ridiculing and constantly finding fault. Not this one particularly but certainly it's sister one and many others. Of course there are faults (in anyone's personal opinion) and before anyone says it, NO I'm not suggesting that only glowing praise should be allowed and that anything negative should be prohibited. Thats a tired cliché of a response that spouted like a mantra here. But any faults that you do feel a deck has doesn't exactly mess up your quality of life does it. As I said, most disappointment can be avoided, but if it does creep through, then trade the damn thing. Sometimes these threads sound like a Jerry Springer show, it may be entertaining if you like that sort of thing but I don't think it contributes anything of value to Tarot from Aeclectic's point of view. The amount of time and energy thats waisted moaning and bitching on these threads (yes me included) would be better spent with the decks you do like, or in my case actually getting on with some work which could be finished sooner (and hopefully won't be bitched about

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I could not agree with you more. Very well said!

I don't think it is a personal tragedy. I don't think it causes any anguish whatsoever. I think looking at trends, thinking about them, pondering them is simply interesting. If I buy a deck and don't like it, I still keep it, still find something to observe in it which might - or might not - stimulate my thinking. Same with books, and other things which are subject to tendencies. I never feel riled or angry in any way that I bought something and it didn't live up to my expectations.

I would have thought anything that fires us or intrigues us will be subject to critique or wonder or bemusement or whatever. As long as nobody is being needlessly vicious or expressing blanket hate with no reasoning or analysis and for no purpose whatsoever.

I bought the Llewellyn Vampyres. I don't like it. But I get it out and look at it and think about it and wonder why I don't like it and I have some answers as to why I don't like it and I just find the whole thing - well - fascinating. I don't regret buying it at all. And any reaction to anything is worth analysing in my opinion. Or maybe I just have too much time on my hands. It doesn't feel like it though...

Aren't all trends a sign of the times?

Whether tarot or clothing or foods ..... there are always going to be trends that people jump on, the difference with tarot is that it's so subjective, one can stay with a deck even after the "trend" wears off if it's a favorite deck. It's just one's taste. With many other trends, it's a bit more difficult not to change with the times without appearing majorly eccentric or really outdated. But then again, what goes around, comes back around! Everything old is new again...

cirom said:

Scion my friend, knowing you personally adds some spice to your posts because I can envisage you actually saying it. You know in that infectious way thats usually at double the speed of a normal person... brilliant.

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Isn't this wonderful!! I've noticed myself doing this after meeting everyone in person at RS10 too. I actually hear them saying the words as I read them. I love it!! And you're exactly right about Scion. Full speed ahead!

cirom said:

On a more serious note however, I agree with many of the comments about the the fickle and questionable value of tarots equivalent of one hit wonders, or in context , short lived hit wonders. But I really wonder at why its such a big deal. The volume and degree of resentment that seems to be generated on these posts seem out of all proportion.

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Case in point for me is the so serious, so vehement dislike of the different languages on most of the LS decks. It's really not that big of a deal people!! Sheesh!!

cirom said:

I can't quite understand why so many threads and posts here are dedicated to ridiculing and constantly finding fault. Not this one particularly but certainly it's sister one and many others. Of course there are faults (in anyone's personal opinion) and before anyone says it, NO I'm not suggesting that only glowing praise should be allowed and that anything negative should be prohibited. Thats a tired cliché of a response that spouted like a mantra here. But any faults that you do feel a deck has doesn't exactly mess up your quality of life does it. As I said, most disappointment can be avoided, but if it does creep through, then trade the damn thing. Sometimes these threads sound like a Jerry Springer show, it may be entertaining if you like that sort of thing but I don't think it contributes anything of value to Tarot from Aeclectic's point of view. The amount of time and energy thats waisted moaning and bitching on these threads (yes me included) would be better spent with the decks you do like, or in my case actually getting on with some work which could be finished sooner (and hopefully won't be bitched about

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Again I completely agree but I see this as a swing in the opposite direction. Like you alluded to a couple years ago nobody wanted to hear anything bad about a deck. Everyone jumped all over a person if they said something negative - even if they were being kind about it. Well now I see it swinging the opposite direction. What I'm hoping is that soon people here will find a middle ground. I pretty much stay away from the attacking, Jerry Springer type thread completely.


OK, I'm off my soapbox and now back to our regularly scheduled thread topic!! Under-rated decks!!!

faunabay said:

Case in point for me is the so serious, so vehement dislike of the different languages on most of the LS decks. It's really not that big of a deal people!! Sheesh!!

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For me (and heaven forbid my personal opinions be taken as objective truth), these titles and borders utterly destroy the art — utterly.

Often the colors chosen flavor the feeling of the cards, or detract from the artwork. Sometimes it's almost as if the cards are circled — yes, we know they're there, so I don't see a reason for this.

The multi-lingual titles are not only insulting (Really, you can't tell you are looking at Death? Poor thing, let us help you), but they pose a philosophical problem as well. "La Papesse" does not mean the same thing as "The High Priestess", "Le Bateleur" does not mean "The Magician", etc. For a deck like Dame Fortune's Wheel, for which a lot of research went into the titles of the cards, this multi-lingual treatment would have been disastrous — luckily, LS did not treat that deck in their usual fashion.

From an aesthetic standpoint, they make something that should look old and mysterious (from my point of view anyway) look modern and commonplace.

I am passionate about this, and I know it rubs a lot of people the wrong way. I'm not apologizing for my opinion. LS often commissions fine artwork for their products (like the Bosch). I just wish they'd let their art and artists speak for themselves without all the editorializing.

Le Fanu said:

I think looking at trends, thinking about them, pondering them is simply interesting.

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Don't get me wrong, I find trends interesting and enjoy sharing thoughts and discussion about them also.

Le Fanu said:

As long as nobody is being needlessly vicious or expressing blanket hate with no reasoning or analysis and for no purpose whatsoever.

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And there my friend is where I do so see an issue. Not vicious hatred, but certainly excessing negativity that at times borders on rudeness, and certainly seems to serve little purpose whatsoever, other than exercising ones right to voice an opinion from the protection of an alias, at the expense of some else's opinion or work.

Possibly if one has never been on the receiving end of such occurrences, they may go unnoticed or seem trivial.

I think offering one's opinion of wether a deck is over or underrated is interesting possibly even useful as a reference to others who may be considering buying the deck. Pontificating on wether a deck has the staying power to pass the "relative" test of time can also be and often is interesting. But the devil is in the details is it not or in this case in the tone or rational used.

Saying that you believe a deck may have been produced to take advantage of the current popularity of a theme, i.e. a Harry Potter deck, and then go on to say that its success may be in grand part be only because of that connection, and in turn predict that interest in the deck may wane quicker as a result, is probably very often the case. But somebody presumably still put a lot of effort into it and its association with a theme or passing fad does'nt make it automatically shallow and appeal only to the sheep like members of the community as is often suggested on these threads. I think those last kind of opinions don't need to be publicly voiced. I don't believe Aeclectic would lose its diversity of opinions were they to be avoided, but it might avoid many of its darker conflicts.

Greg Stanton said:

For me (and heaven forbid my personal opinions be taken as objective truth), these titles and borders utterly destroy the art — utterly.

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I don't agree its necessarily an objective "truth" but certainly an objective personal "Opinion" but you supported it with a compelling rational. Which "A" you're entitled to and "B" actually has me agreeing with you on now, whereas I previously found myself on the fence on that multi language subject.

cirom said:

Saying that you believe a deck may have been produced to take advantage of the current popularity of a theme, i.e. a Harry Potter deck, and then go on to say that its success may be in grand part be only because of that connection, and in turn predict that interest in the deck may wane quicker as a result, is probably very often the case. But somebody presumably still put a lot of effort into it and its association with a theme or passing fad does'nt make it automatically shallow and appeal only to the sheep like members of the community as is often suggested on these threads. I think those last kind of opinions don't need to be publicly voiced. I don't believe Aeclectic would lose its diversity of opinions were they to be avoided, but it might avoid many of its darker conflicts..

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I am looking for personal clarification here

Are you suggesting that "Saying that you believe a deck may have been produced to take advantage of the current popularity of a theme, i.e. a Harry Potter deck, and then go on to say that its success may be in grand part be only because of that connection, and in turn predict that interest in the deck may wane quicker as a result, is probably very often the case" is unfair on the creator of such a deck? Or is it that you think expressing an opinion that "it is shallow and appeal only to the sheep like members of the community" is the sort of hurtful negativity that should be avoided?

At what point does a genuinely held opinion about a deck, backed up by reasons, become offensive? Could I say I disliked the artwork? and say why or might the reason be hurtful if it should be that I genuinely felt the artwork not quite up to the mark?

If I dislike a deck, for reasons that feel valid to me, and think my fellow member XYZ (who has a very similar taste in decks to me) would hate it too, and XYZ then posts asking me to state my opinion of the deck so that they can possibly avoid wasting their hard-earned - do I refrain, even though this is a public forum, and I have been asked for my opinion?

I quite understand not wanting gratuitously negative comments to be posted; this must be hurtful. But if a negative comment is backed up with a specific reason "I find the deck appallingly garish, because it is all done with fluorescent primary colours" - is that still a hurtful comment, given that it is a subjective opinion and a reason for it is stated? I'm not trying to pick holes, truly - I just really want to know at what point (for you) criticism becomes negativity, because I believe one should be allowed to be critical but negativity is damaging and pointless. But my critical may well be your extreme negativity, and I can't gauge it without knowing at what stage it tips over the edge from one to the other from your point of view.

This thread has gotten interesting, to say the least. Ultimately I agree more with Ciro than with anyone else, though there were good points made even in the posts that raised my hackles. Hackle-raising, though, has more to do with tone than with content, as Ciro suggested.

I don't bite at every deck that strikes my fancy; I can't afford to. The wish list will stay as a list until my finances get better, and it doesn't cost anything to revise a list! But I do take exception to the idea that there's something bad about a large number of RWS-derivatives, for instance, or that a currently popular theme can't produce a classic deck. It's all in how well it's done. If the RWS system works for you, and you like a different artist's take on it far better than the original (or someone else's take on it), then go for it! Atmosphere, including art styles, is a huge influence on many people. And not everyone has the same desire to investigate all the nuances in depth, nor do the same images or styles convey the deeper nuances to everyone.