View Full Version : Fallen Angel Oracle
Not my style at all, I have to say, but I know quite a few people like their Angel decks and this one looked a bit different from usual, so I thought I'd spread the word.
It can be seen here (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/9781907563300/aeclectictaro-21/) and is by the same author (Nigel Suckling) who did the Dragon's Tarot
It is due out early next year (I seem to remember that February came up when I searched for it before) but can be preordered. I cannot find any other references to it apart from on amazon.
cardlady22
01-11-2010, 08:52
The description says: artist Sarah Perkins
How do we find out where to see more of her art?
Can't tell if I'll like it until then . . .
I wonder if it is this (http://www.eastwing.co.uk/artist/sarahperkins/) Sarah Perkins? For some reason, the artwork on the Fallen Angel box chimes a little with the artwork of this Sarah Perkins, especially the latter images on page 2.
All pure speculation, of course. :)
Blimey. I just googled this Gusion bloke that is mentioned in the write up - he sounds bad news
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gusion
Seems to be in this list?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_demons_in_the_Ars_Goetia
along with the other two names mentioned.
I'm all for something different, but this lot sound a bit errr OTT demony? Can't imagine them liking it if the artwork is in the slightest bit fluffy ;)
cardlady22
02-11-2010, 02:55
}) *tongue in cheek*
And the description at Amazon says 69 cards. What about the (at least) two who got left out?
I'm all for something different, but this lot sound a bit errr OTT demony?Hang on, maybe it is my style after all... })
cardlady22
02-11-2010, 05:26
equal opportunity blasphemist and all . . . :laugh:
Still need to see some card pics though.
*drumming fingers on the desk edge*
It's a long way 'til spring.
}) *tongue in cheek*
And the description at Amazon says 69 cards. What about the (at least) two who got left out?
*hides*
*shakes*
HighPriestess
02-11-2010, 07:53
Ooh, I love the cover art!
I've always had a fascination with demonology. This looks like it will be a nice alternative to all the sugary sweet angel decks that are already saturating the market.
I found another listing that has a tiny image of the box and the cards. The cards look like they're brightly coloured--not what I would expect from a deck like this. Still, I may be wrong.
ooooh, can you post the image you found?
HighPriestess
02-11-2010, 07:58
You can see a tiny image here: http://www.pickabook.co.uk/bookdetails.aspx?ISBN=190756330X
I did a search and found the cards on Amazon.com and Amazon.co.uk, but not on Amazon.ca, which is a shame. Maybe it will be up at a later date.
Here they are on Amazon.com: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=190756330X/ref=nosim/aeclectic/
Gosh that is tiny, isn't it! Thanks for posting anyway...
HighPriestess
04-11-2010, 13:05
I found more information!
Go here: http://www.rylandpeters.com/Catalogues.php
Click on their Spring 2011 Catalogue (Books) and keep flipping through until you come to the "Mind, Body, and Spirit" category (lavender borders). It's the fourth "dot" on the small bar at the bottom of the screen.
You can also see four (small) cards. One of them clearly says "Agares", which is a name I recognize. I think the others are "Bael", "Marbas", and "Pruftas" (I don't think that last one's right, the text is very small).
ETA: I just looked up the names, it's "Pruflas". I was close!
Here are some links to info about each demon:
Agares: http://www.deliriumsrealm.com/delirium/articleview.asp?Post=83
Bael: http://www.deliriumsrealm.com/delirium/articleview.asp?Post=102
Marbas: http://www.deliriumsrealm.com/delirium/articleview.asp?Post=295
Pruflas: http://www.deliriumsrealm.com/delirium/articleview.asp?Post=317
cardlady22
04-11-2010, 14:11
Thank you for drilling down to find it for us.
I don't think this will make it on my list.
HighPriestess
04-11-2010, 14:38
I just checked the catalogue again and you can zoom in a bit to see the cards better.
The images seem to have a sort of photo-realistic quality. They seem less like paintings and more like collages. It kind of reminds me of the Haindl crossed with the Graven Images Oracle, if that makes any sense.
I like the concept of the deck, but I think I'll wait until I see some scans on AT before making a decision. For a deck about fallen angels, the colours seem too bright and cheery. Then again, we're only seeing four cards out of what, seventy two? I guess I was expecting something more along the lines of the illustrations in Colin de Plancy's Dictionnaire Infernal, that's actually a plus with me, because I don't like those illustrations.
Does anyone else find the "selling points" for the deck somewhat amusing? I mean "angels are the new vampires" and "no other Fallen Angel decks on the market". I mean, Dark Angels sort of qualifies, right? There's also a Luciferian Tarot.
I'm probably being unfair, judging the entire deck based on a few cards. I still think the box art is awesome.
Aaaaaaand I just noticed that this is the same publisher that published "The Art of Tarot", I HATE that deck, but that's neither here nor there.
WyrdRaven
31-01-2011, 08:47
I guess some people have copies already! There's one up at EB. I'm really intrigued and hoping that the artwork resonates with my Wendell Gothic and Graven Images. Wow, just the thing for people who don't want "fluffy" angels!
What's EB? Are there more scans up?
I'm still not convinced - I mean there are some things that are better off out of my head.
I'm reminded of the Fairy Ring where it warns you off "working" with some of the fairies.
Hmm. I've seen scarier demons on Sesame Street. The Abominable Snowman is more frightening. (I wish someone would do an Oracle of Childhood Terrors.)
It isn't the CARDS it's the demons they represent.
Personally I think they are scary.
I read up.
where are people seeing the card scans?
WyrdRaven
01-02-2011, 07:23
What's EB? Are there more scans up?
There is a deck up for sale at EBay already! I haven't seen any further scans, just the links already posted in this thread (and images are SO tiny)
Are all the cards representing goetic entities? I'd love to see the artwork and if they are represented the way they are described in the Goetia that would be interesting.
But only 69 cards? That's strange.
cardlady22
03-02-2011, 06:14
Amazon's description must be in error.
Let's see if this screenshot works/fits. The cards are too tiny to make out much detail, but it says 72 cards with a 64-page book.
Those look like photos of cemetery statuary. This could be the most unintentionally hilarious deck ever. On the trend of "the dark side" indeed!
Those look like photos of cemetery statuary. This could be the most unintentionally hilarious deck ever. On the trend of "the dark side" indeed!
Exactly. I don't want to prejudge, but it's not looking promising.
I just wish I could see some clear images. Not tiny ones (thank you cardlady; it was kind of you to post the images.)
It does look rather like just cemetery statue photos. Like the Power Animals deck, only for *dead people*
Those look like photos of cemetery statuary. This could be the most unintentionally hilarious deck ever. On the trend of "the dark side" indeed!
Or someone has been watching "Blink" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blink_(Doctor_Who) (which is scary when you watch it the first time).
Dusk Till Dawn
04-02-2011, 02:35
As far as I can tell, I definately want this! Especially since it's statues.
brightcrazystar
08-02-2011, 10:09
I bought it, and I am well versed in the fallen angels it details. As I said, the traditional Tarot association in the Western Traditions is that the Goetia are attributed to the Decans of the Zodiac, which are the 2-9 cards of any given suit. There are 8x4 36 cards, and two per card. The Spirits of the Goetia are divided into Day and Night polarities, and on those decans of the zodiac. I plan to use them as a basis for that kind of oracle, and bind each card to the seal and the names and seals of the Angels of the Shem-Ham-Phorash, which are the 72 names of God formed in wardenship over them.
There is also a way Eliphas Levi attributed them. I might see if that works, though I never applied this before, and it would kind of weird to change something so base up in my mind. Then again, that might be useful/...
If anyone wishes to use this deck, it can't hurt to recite the following:
And the angel of God, which went before the camp of Israel, removed and went behind them; and the pillar of the cloud went from before their face, and stood behind them:
And it came between the camp of the Egyptians and the camp of Israel; and it was a cloud and darkness [to them], but it gave light by night [to these]: so that the one came not near the other all the night.
And Moses stretched out his hand over the sea; and the LORD caused the sea to go [back] by a strong east wind all that night, and made the sea dry [land], and the waters were divided.
translation from wiki. I prefer the Hebrew, which I kind of have a way to sing along with parts of the Song of Solomon and a Psalm (27) of David. I guess if you just don't care none of this matters, but I thought I would offer.
This is the origin of the Shemhamphorasch names and a general vocal talisman against the Goetia.
I bought it, and I am well versed in the fallen angels it details.So it's available then?
brightcrazystar
08-02-2011, 10:56
I just bought it at Barnes and Noble today in Paramus, New Jersey.
(Not surprised it is easy to find demons in new jersey, though.)
HighPriestess
08-02-2011, 10:58
So it's available then?
I just checked Amazon.com. It says it won't be available until March.
I'm wondering if anyone buying it would be kind enough to post a couple scans when they get it? I'd like to see more than just tiny images.
The deck has an interesting premise, but the art looks iffy...
brightcrazystar
08-02-2011, 12:27
http://search.barnesandnoble.com/Fallen-Angel-Oracle-Cards/Nigel-Suckling/e/9781907563300/?itm=1&USRI=fallen+angel+oracle
bn.com says it ships in 24 hours,
I didn't open it yet, but it was on the shelf and I picked it up.
A find in store option showed it in five local barnes and noble
stores near here,so I guess it is being distributed already.
I am looking for a full list of the 72 fallen to see if it is the list of from the manuscript Theurgia Goetia, Johan Weir's Pseudo-Marchia Daemonium list that seems to have inspired that one, or Reginald Scot's from The Discourie of Witchcraft, which was banned by King James. Worst case scenario, it is Dr. Rudd's from the 1800's. Personally, I hope it is Weir's as he has that Trithemius, Agrippa lineage going for him. Besides, it is the oldest. If not that basis, if the deck is based on Mathers' Goetia translation financed by Crowley would also be cool.
brightcrazystar
10-02-2011, 02:45
I opened this, and it is lovely.
It tells the story of Johannes Wier, and all but three of the spirits are from his seminal work from 1563. YAY! Someone who actually did some historical research. The other three are from Reginal Scot, who wrote the second best book on the subject, in the 1600's. In short, it is exactly the same set of fallen angels I use and shows some serious work on the part of the researchers. He also attributes them to solid elemental and planetary ideals, and gives them keywords that are awesome and could easily tie they into being a synthesis of energies of the Major Arcanum, instead of a one to one relationship with a standard Tarot Deck. Their Zodiacal Associations are not mentioned here, but are well displayed in other decks.
He introduces Dr. Wier well, and explains how his continual legacy as a Dr continues to help in his native Netherlands. He does his utmost to respect this often unknown link to the pccult heritage of humanity, and to redeem his work. The theme of the Pseudomarchia Daemonium is that there are angels to earth, by pride, curiousity, or impudence. It is their task to help and present themselves to the Magician to be considered eligible for redemption. Only in using these beings irresponsibly or with unchecked ambition or malice does one invoke their dark nature as they invoke their own. The goal is uplifting them, by letting them once again serve the light. It is a fantastic deck, and may be a valiant effort to do that.
He makes this work a legacy of a kind, gentle physician who studied with the Greatly Honored Agrippa, instead of some depraved anti-christian rhetorical lashing out. He doesn't rely on Christian dogma, or any Religion for that matter. He instroduces the Hexagram and the Pentagram as keys to this Notary Art, which is refreshing and traditional at the same time. His work tends to tone down the literary inspired cautionary tone of the Theurgia Goetia, which is clearly an adoption of Wier's work set to the tune of 1001 Arabian Knights as a way to tap into the Mystique of the Ottomon Empire.
Furthermore, my first glances at the book (haven't touched the deck yet, but book includes full color illustrations of all cards and excellent guidance for use of the cards. The images are largely driven by the atmosphere of the keyword, and the traditional talismantic image of the spirit. I personally love the artwork of the deck, which is surreal interlayed photorealistic images. I cant speak to the quality of the cards yet, but I can't imagine them being any less solid than the book, the integrity of the research, and this is highly recommended.
I will write a full review in Behutet, a philadephia based journal of my O.T.O. community, which will be released after I make a more thorough study of the cards, and do some test runs. If no one objects, I will post it here.
WyrdRaven
10-02-2011, 06:53
Thank you, brightcrazystar! This deck sounds fascinating and I am looking forward to your review. I can hardly wait to get my paws on one of these decks!
Libra8ca
11-02-2011, 07:55
Just received my deck and first impressions: I really like it! :thumbsup:
I know nothing about Fallen Angels but for some reason this deck was calling out to me and since it was only $15 at amazon I ordered it.
The cards have a nice gloss and are quite large (8 x 13 cm). They are photo-collages with some really nice crosses and buildings. The colors are autumn colors (browns, rust, dark blue and purple, grey and lime) -just in time for spring :P. The colors are not too bright, they are not as bright as the picture in the catalogue that was linked shows. There is a bit of mistiness to the images. In fact, the style reminds me very much of the Bohemian Gothic deck :bugeyed: There are no gory or obscene cards.
The title is printed across the middle (!) half of the image i.e. "Marbas - 3- discovery". In fact this is one of the only things I don't like and could have been done better; i.e. they should have put the title at the bottom of the card. I don't find it too distracting but it's a little weird. There is a keyword on each card and there are no borders.
I did a one card draw and got quite an interesting and insightful result. The companion book has short and concise descriptions and appears to be well written but I have to admit that I know nothing about fallen angels. The deck comes in a nice box.
I think this will be a must-have for anyone who likes darker decks. Should be great for the fall / Halloween.
ETA: the title image is on the back of the cards. They are not reversible.
cardlady22
11-02-2011, 08:07
I have a question regarding the numbering. Does it have any significance, or is it in alphabetical order like other oracles?
brightcrazystar
11-02-2011, 08:46
The numbers 1-68 was the order they were listed by Reginald Scot, and their typical order in each of the typical grimoires. It is not their "common sequence" in the Goetia.
The other three are from the Goetia, as Johan Wier only has 69 in his list, and this is 72. In 1904 Mathers translated the Goetia for Crowely, and this is consonant with that text, but the order is different.
And again, please don't fall for the superstitious judeo-christian hype, it was what people had to do in books like this so they didn't get burnt to death or lynched.
Libra8ca
11-02-2011, 10:01
Just wanted to add that some cards have the titles at the bottom, some have them at the top, a few have them in the middle but on one side (this I don't like but there are only a few like it) and then there are some cards that have the title a little above the bottom or below the top. Basically they are all over the place. Overall, I like the design.
Dusk Till Dawn
15-02-2011, 17:50
I received mine. The Box is very Nice and Sturdy, very soft to the Touch. Similar to the Quatum and Golden Box, opens to the side not top.
The Book has full color images and several spreads.
The Cards, well I love the images, the size is Ok, but:
I wish the cards were not so thin. My Copy arrived damaged and warped on several cards. Some were bent, and some actually damaged on the back. I shuffled them to pull a card, and others were damaged imediately.
I love the Concept, but the Deck is way to fragile in my opinion.
I was so happy to open that nice box, then I saw how the Deck was wrapped with some plastic in the middle, which caused some of the cards to warp backwards, only the back of the deck not the front.
cardlady22
15-02-2011, 23:32
Unfortunately, Cico (the publisher) uses flimsy stock. Many people have this problem of the damaged cards, which has to be happening in the packaging stage.
Dusk Till Dawn
16-02-2011, 00:02
I have picked this Deck up many times today. Looking through the Cards, reading through the Book, and I really Like it. I immediately housed them in a nice bag, and will use them. I love the images, and really do like everything else, except that cardstock.
Libra8ca
16-02-2011, 00:10
I wish the cards were not so thin. My Copy arrived damaged and warped on several cards. Some were bent, and some actually damaged on the back. I shuffled them to pull a card, and others were damaged imediately.
I love the Concept, but the Deck is way to fragile in my opinion.
I was so happy to open that nice box, then I saw how the Deck was wrapped with some plastic in the middle, which caused some of the cards to warp backwards, only the back of the deck not the front.
I don't find that the cards are that thin and fragile but they are not as thick as the Bohemian Gothic 2nd edition for example or other oracle decks such as Dragonfae.
I found one card that was slightly damaged where the printing had come off at the edge on the back showing the white cardstock underneath. I used a brown marker to cover the white area. I haven't found any other cards with damage or noticed that they become damaged from shuffling. I think I may have to examine them again more closely. The only other thing that I noticed is that they are quite slippery probably because of the finish they used (but it's better than having them stick together).
I too love these cards but I'm afraid this may be another deck with quality issues (printed in China?-not sure where it's printed; I don't have the deck in front of my as I'm typing this).
HighPriestess
28-02-2011, 01:48
I found some pictures:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-MDLde65TTZ0/TWTq3tLSPeI/AAAAAAAACrw/AtvH5pyE77E/s1600/fallen%2Bangels%2B1.jpg
and here:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-ckHHNpfyVbw/TWTq_-_hoII/AAAAAAAACr4/TAopsT4GKi0/s1600/fallen%2Bangels%2B2.jpg
and here's a link to the review with the pictures:
http://www.badwitch.co.uk/2011/02/preview-fallen-angel-oracle-cards.html
Avnas' card looks a little cheesy to me, but the others look sort of cool. I guess some might call it a cheap imitation of the Graven Images Oracle, but I might pick this one up now. It's not like I have any other decks with this theme.
Now that there is more info - and more images - I really like the look of this deck. I'm in an Oracle phase right now so this is going to be interesting for me to play around with (whenever it is released).
I have Suckling's Dragon Tarot which comes with a warning at Somerville's, "low quality card, made in China" and I find that it is OK.
I am guessing that the cardstock is the same as Suckling's Dragon Tarot and maybe Liz Dean's Golden Tarot (isn't that cico?)
It has that "goth album cover (cerca 1983)" look to it. I like the way how on his site, Suckling makes a point of saying that these angels are "neither on the side of God or the Devil".
I can see that it is similar to the Graven Images Oracle but it has more artistic interferences, which I like.
Thanks to everyone who has posted to give us more of a sense of what to expect.
Dusk Till Dawn
28-02-2011, 03:06
I have a Back Up now, and the Deck has no flaws whatsoever! I have been using the damaged one , ever since I got it, and the cards do hold up after all. I would say, this is easily one of my Favourite Oracle Decks.
Where did you get yours from? Is there a stockist in Europe?
Dusk Till Dawn
28-02-2011, 04:35
I got mine from Amazon.de, but not directly from them, a seller, and he sent replacement immediately. Wonderful customer service.
weird, as it is isn't listed as available on amazon uk.
ETA; I don't understand German but is it saying it is in stock on German amazon?
HighPriestess
28-02-2011, 04:51
weird, as it is isn't listed as available on amazon uk.
ETA; I don't understand German but is it saying it is in stock on German amazon?
I think it says 'Usually Ships in 2 to 3 weeks'
Here it is on Amazon.co.uk:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Fallen-Angels-Oracle-Cards-book/dp/190756330X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1298836234&sr=8-1
Seems kind of strange that on some sites it's available for preorder but others have it in stock already.
I know! I'm trying to find a site that has it in stock in Europe!
Maybe I'll just contain myself, sit on my hands and just wait for it to be in stock at amazon/BD
ETA; LOL. Can't believe it, here's me F*rting around on amazon and it's in stock - just checked - at the BD!!
*off to order*
:D
It's on the way!
*claps hands*
I think its a shame that an informed approach is paired with the photo-collage style artwork. No criticism intended to the artist, but I'd love to see something based around the seals and the line drawings from the texts, rather than something so modern appearing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astaroth
There is another deck based on the goetic demons, OOP and not great though.
http://www.tarotgarden.com/database/images/w-decks/wisdomsolomoncards.gif
cardlady22
28-02-2011, 11:10
Exactly, Grigori! I'm going to have to hold out for a reprint of the Solomon or a new rendition.
Dusk Till Dawn
28-02-2011, 17:27
I know! I'm trying to find a site that has it in stock in Europe!
Maybe I'll just contain myself, sit on my hands and just wait for it to be in stock at amazon/BD
ETA; LOL. Can't believe it, here's me F*rting around on amazon and it's in stock - just checked - at the BD!!
*off to order*
:D
LOL! I am glad you found it! I think you will enjoy it.
Mine just arrived (from Book Depository).
Mine just arrived (from Book Depository).
And? Give us the lowdown? :D First impressions?
brightcrazystar
01-03-2011, 17:24
I think its a shame that an informed approach is paired with the photo-collage style artwork. No criticism intended to the artist, but I'd love to see something based around the seals and the line drawings from the texts, rather than something so modern appearing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astaroth
There is another deck based on the goetic demons, OOP and not great though.
http://www.tarotgarden.com/database/images/w-decks/wisdomsolomoncards.gif
The thing is he is tapping into these pre-fall, from Wier's work. the seal is not any part of the same work for the infernal dictionary, and with a single look at the facsimile of the manuscripts of the Lemegeton, you will see these modern seals are not all accurate.
Joseph Peterson's treatment of the Lemegeton is awesome and worth it. Dr. Rudd's is what most modern work is based on, but rarely is it well and fully represented.
http://www.amazon.com/Lesser-Key-Solomon-Joseph-Peterson/dp/157863220X/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1298965839&sr=1-1
http://www.amazon.com/Goetia-Rudd-techniques-Sourceworks-Ceremonial/dp/0954763920
this completes the best triad of popular definitive sources published:
http://www.amazon.com/Clavis-Key-Magic-Solomon-Talismanic/dp/0892541598/ref=pd_sim_b_2
here is the prime materia for most western attempts at the solomonic art: Sepher Maphteah Shelomo pdf at link.
http://www.archive.org/details/sefermafteashelo00golluoft
you may see each text has different seals, and the point is that the spirits of the Theurgia Goetia should be compelled to human form so they are respecting the divine providence man gave god - the form of the pentagram as seen in the seal. In my opinion, the author was wise to not employ images and seals, for there are variances in even these definitive texts.
And the images from the dictionary infernals would defeat the spirit in which he hopes the cards would be used. they are fun though. but that text is just not an occult text of reference, it is initially a book mocking human superstition, and a very racist one, actually. later it is revised to be a total support of catholic superstitions about angels and demons.
brightcrazystar
01-03-2011, 17:25
besides, you really should draw the seals yourself to employ them.
Ashtaroot
01-03-2011, 18:47
I really need to stop coming here:rolleyes:
Waiting for your review Le Fanu ...
I can't really add much to what has already been said.
Personally, I like the artwork and find it very appealing - otherworldly and with a dimensional quality that seems to draw you between its layers.
The lettering of name and keyword within the image is a bit distracting, I'm a linguistic type and can't ignore a prominent keyword, so I usually prefer more unobtrusive approaches.
The box is nice and sturdy, however, if you pull out the book while the cards are inside, some will drop down outside their well and get stuck. I cut the original banderole and there is not enough space inside to tie a ribbon around the cards, so I will probably transfer them to a nice bag.
From the first glances, the book is sufficient if you want to use the cards "only" as an oracle. With my limited knowledge about Goetia, I think the handful of introductory pages don't tell the newcomer enough to even evaluate if this is based on good research... shall have to read up on it using other sources, because the images, while beautiful and haunting, would not give me enough to work with otherwise.
Waiting for someone to offer a few readings with these :D
But if like me, you know nothing about seals and Wier and Lemegeton and have no idea what some of these posts above are referring to :| would it be fairly easy to make headway?
Or will I have the sense that it's all *wrong* ? :(
Ummm... didn't I say that? I know I meant to!
Without Goetia knowledge, it is an oracle populated by characters with florid names. Keywords and divinatory meanings are given. The images are pleasing to at least my eye. You can read with it intuitively, I think.
It does not feel wrong at all ... it does feel like one is missing something. Probably a lot. For me, knowing there is a lot more to know and knowing it is stressful :D
brightcrazystar
02-03-2011, 01:36
ok, follow me here, for a minute and I will try and explain...
Theurgia Goetia is one part of the book called "Lemegeton", known as the "lesser key of Solomon." This is not generally based on that but most modern work is. That is based on a text called Pseudomarchia Daemonium.
Pseudomarchia Daemonium is a book by Johan Wier, student of Heinrich Cornelius Agrippa, about the closest to the person who put the list together we can ascribe the list to, but it comes from older oral tradition and some hebrew writings. He treats these as a combination of, basically, the third of the Host of Heaven who rebelled, AND the third of the Host of Heaven who refused to fight for or against the Elohim's decision to make human form in their image. These are an approximation of what are the generally seen as the Fairies in most books of their time with a hermetic calibur. These are the general three distinctions: Angelic in origin, each of them.
1/3 align to man, 1/3 revolt, 1/3 align to Nature, wherein man now dwells. His work is basically much different than the Theurgia Goetia which is basically an adoption of Islamic Black Magic as found in 1001 Arabian Nights.
The goal of Humankind is to get all of them to realign back to the mysteries of his creation. Get Angels to recognize the divine in you, Use that to amplify your divinity, make the connection to those who revolted, reconcile them as they can by allowing them connection back to divinity by being the conduit for that, and generally make nice with the "Faeries" - and don't screw up the balance. The faeries are the most fickle, because both the verdict is still out if the divine is really in man, and also many kinda like the freedom of nature. The problem is the world is not a perpetual motion engine, and it will collapse. Anything not returned to the light will not make it. Some seem to not want to redemption, others are not willing to forgive the schism that destroyed the divine unity and suspect it will happen again, others just like their freedom. Generally, it is accepted most of them will not make it back, and it is useless trying. This is Mystical Christian mythology 101 and heavily based off similar views older than China, and probably brought down the silk road with other elements of what became Gnosticism.
The redemption is an acceptance of the Shadow aspect, an aligning of it to one's Light, which is aligned to the common light of humanity, but which also communes with the light of nature. Shadow is given perspective, light is reconciled with darkness. Yin and Yang return to Yuan Chi, the first creation - Which was "aL". pronounced "el" since before cuniform.
It is an entirely different mythology from the Theurgia Goetia, which is sort of like a remake posing as a sequel that brings in a lot of other influences. The remake is a good remake of a good movie, like Ocean's Eleven was, but not what the creator seems to be working with.
However, Wier says three names are withheld for there is a great terror in their truth, so the Creator seems to, as most everyone else pulls these from the Theurgia Goetia's extra names.
The thing is these names most likely Johan Wier excludes are the three names of the Gods of the "People of the Book" false aspects as "Prineumaton" (false Allah), "Anaphenaton*" (false Jesus), and "Tetragrammaton" (false Jehovah).
(Anaphenaton has appeared as Ananphexaton after mistakes in copy.)
Yup, what is worshipped as the Gods of the Christians, Jews, and Muslims are in fact that which most strongly rebelled from the Divine, which by will of the Elohim and Eloah, dwells in Mankind. If Johan Wier wrote that, he would have been killed on the spot, so he did not dare. Note, this is not Diety, this is "false" diety, which has been known as names even before these... a god who demands you kill or commit atrocity in his name, essentially.
The author of Theurgia Goetia probably felt the same, and so he added these names to the "Triangle of Art" and substites the three names:
Seere - false "Jehovah" - relates to "Tetragrammaton"
Dantalion - false "Jesus" - relates to "Anaphenaton"
(misprinted as Anaphexaton for centuries)
Andromalius - false "Allah" - relates to "Primeumaton"
All the atrocities done in these names, are attributed to their Shadows. Ever heard someone "hate" in the name of Jesus, or kill, steal, or lie, in the
"NAME" of God. Well, that is the three that Wier dare not name - not the "Almighty Everliving Divine Providence".
The creator of this deck is trying to not stomp on sensibilities of religion, and some people adhere to name instead of GOD, so he adopts the three name the author of the Theurgia Goetia used. Most people in this day and age have already realized @**holes deluded enough to validate atrocity for religion's sake are not really spiritually connecting to anything useful. No use in pushing the point. Then again, he may not know this - but that is fine too.
brightcrazystar
02-03-2011, 02:51
And for the record, this is not a firm fixed belief, it was a model for interpreting spiritual truth in the sensible world. I am not saying this is exactly what I or anyone else should believe.
HighPriestess
02-03-2011, 09:53
I found another review of this deck here:
http://magicmentha.blogspot.com/2011/02/first-reading-using-fallen-angel-oracle.html
and here is the companion site that has a sample of the companion book:
http://www.dragontarot.net/angels/welcome.htm
I must say, there's some nice art on that page! For those of you who have it, how is the card stock?
Thank you for those links. I am getting a better sense of this deck thanks to people here. And thank you brightcrazystar for that in-depth and enlightening explanation.
I am really looking forward to my deck arriving. I like the look of the companion book too. I like what I have seen of this more than the Graven Images Oracle, but I don't know why...
cardlady22
02-03-2011, 10:36
:( The cards were so beautiful without those oddly-placed black title bars.
Ashtaroot
02-03-2011, 20:35
That was intense thank you very much
Where can I get more more info about the 1001 night magic? I am very intrigued, I haven't heard this before.
ok, follow me here, for a minute and I will try and explain...
Theurgia Goetia is one part of the book called "Lemegeton", known as the "lesser key of Solomon." This is not generally based on that but most modern work is. That is based on a text called Pseudomarchia Daemonium.
Pseudomarchia Daemonium is a book by Johan Wier, student of Heinrich Cornelius Agrippa, about the closest to the person who put the list together we can ascribe the list to, but it comes from older oral tradition and some hebrew writings. He treats these as a combination of, basically, the third of the Host of Heaven who rebelled, AND the third of the Host of Heaven who refused to fight for or against the Elohim's decision to make human form in their image. These are an approximation of what are the generally seen as the Fairies in most books of their time with a hermetic calibur. These are the general three distinctions: Angelic in origin, each of them.
1/3 align to man, 1/3 revolt, 1/3 align to Nature, wherein man now dwells. His work is basically much different than the Theurgia Goetia which is basically an adoption of Islamic Black Magic as found in 1001 Arabian Nights.
The goal of Humankind is to get all of them to realign back to the mysteries of his creation. Get Angels to recognize the divine in you, Use that to amplify your divinity, make the connection to those who revolted, reconcile them as they can by allowing them connection back to divinity by being the conduit for that, and generally make nice with the "Faeries" - and don't screw up the balance. The faeries are the most fickle, because both the verdict is still out if the divine is really in man, and also many kinda like the freedom of nature. The problem is the world is not a perpetual motion engine, and it will collapse. Anything not returned to the light will not make it. Some seem to not want to redemption, others are not willing to forgive the schism that destroyed the divine unity and suspect it will happen again, others just like their freedom. Generally, it is accepted most of them will not make it back, and it is useless trying. This is Mystical Christian mythology 101 and heavily based off similar views older than China, and probably brought down the silk road with other elements of what became Gnosticism.
The redemption is an acceptance of the Shadow aspect, an aligning of it to one's Light, which is aligned to the common light of humanity, but which also communes with the light of nature. Shadow is given perspective, light is reconciled with darkness. Yin and Yang return to Yuan Chi, the first creation - Which was "aL". pronounced "el" since before cuniform.
It is an entirely different mythology from the Theurgia Goetia, which is sort of like a remake posing as a sequel that brings in a lot of other influences. The remake is a good remake of a good movie, like Ocean's Eleven was, but not what the creator seems to be working with.
However, Wier says three names are withheld for there is a great terror in their truth, so the Creator seems to, as most everyone else pulls these from the Theurgia Goetia's extra names.
The thing is these names most likely Johan Wier excludes are the three names of the Gods of the "People of the Book" false aspects as "Prineumaton" (false Allah), "Anaphenaton*" (false Jesus), and "Tetragrammaton" (false Jehovah).
(Anaphenaton has appeared as Ananphexaton after mistakes in copy.)
Yup, what is worshipped as the Gods of the Christians, Jews, and Muslims are in fact that which most strongly rebelled from the Divine, which by will of the Elohim and Eloah, dwells in Mankind. If Johan Wier wrote that, he would have been killed on the spot, so he did not dare. Note, this is not Diety, this is "false" diety, which has been known as names even before these... a god who demands you kill or commit atrocity in his name, essentially.
The author of Theurgia Goetia probably felt the same, and so he added these names to the "Triangle of Art" and substites the three names:
Seere - false "Jehovah" - relates to "Tetragrammaton"
Dantalion - false "Jesus" - relates to "Anaphenaton"
(misprinted as Anaphexaton for centuries)
Andromalius - false "Allah" - relates to "Primeumaton"
All the atrocities done in these names, are attributed to their Shadows. Ever heard someone "hate" in the name of Jesus, or kill, steal, or lie, in the
"NAME" of God. Well, that is the three that Wier dare not name - not the "Almighty Everliving Divine Providence".
The creator of this deck is trying to not stomp on sensibilities of religion, and some people adhere to name instead of GOD, so he adopts the three name the author of the Theurgia Goetia used. Most people in this day and age have already realized @**holes deluded enough to validate atrocity for religion's sake are not really spiritually connecting to anything useful. No use in pushing the point. Then again, he may not know this - but that is fine too.
:( The cards were so beautiful without those oddly-placed black title bars.I know... I've been thinking the same, whether I'll be able to use them and try and overlook those black bars in the middle of the image.
Thank you for your explanations and comments brightcrazystar. It certainly puts this deck into a framework, and fairies too. Seems like concepts I keep seeing from different angles and you pulled it together in a way that is comprehensible. And yes, I did note your caveats.
blackrainbow
10-03-2011, 01:08
I received my deck today. havent got a chance to look at them now though hopefully latter i will get a chance.
oak_woman
10-03-2011, 03:35
My deck arrived yesterday :) So far, I like it very much.
One thing I like about it as that the photographs are clearly credited as having been taken at Nunhead cemetery, so it's not necessary to feel that the fallen angels themselves are pictured. It's more a feeling you get from each card; a sense of the identity of each one portrayed through symbol and colour. I often feel that suggestion of this kind is more effective in getting the intuition flowing than fully figurative illustration. If the photomontage technique had been used to create actual 'portraits' I would probably have more of an issue with the medium, but as it is, I think it works very well to give hints and layers (I think Aulruna mentioned the feeling of mysterious layering).
One thing I was wondering, and I don't know whether anyone here can tell me, is whether the descriptions of the angels' attributes are actually taken from Weyer's text, or whether they have been devised by Nigel Suckling, based on any small hints available?
I look forward to getting to know this Oracle better - and I'm really not a conventionally 'angel-y' type at all!
I have been going through the Lesser Key of Solomon comparing the descriptions, like animal appearance and area of specialty, and Suckling followed this very closely in his LWB descriptions. He does change the order somewhat though.
oak_woman
10-03-2011, 21:00
I have been going through the Lesser Key of Solomon comparing the descriptions, like animal appearance and area of specialty, and Suckling followed this very closely in his LWB descriptions. He does change the order somewhat though.
That's very interesting, and I find it pleasing that Nigel Suckling followed the descriptions so closely. What about the planetary and elemental correspondences? Did he extrapolate them from the descriptions, or are they specified in the Lesser Key of Solomon?
I kept going yesterday after I posted that (there are 72 of them and I had to search because he didn't keep the order).
He seems to have taken the descriptions and modernized them. I'll come back with some examples later. He stuck reasonably closely but I have found a few where he took the description and prettied up the function.
So far I have not found where the astro & elemental associations are coming from.
btw, I am not expert! brightcrazystar could, if he iwshed, explain this in a second. for now I'll keep going through.
One comment, according to the Lesser Key, some of these 'Fallen Angels' are quite demonic, that would be the prettying up part.
oak_woman
10-03-2011, 21:32
I'm really looking forward to reading more - thank you for sharing your findings, Alta :) I'm not surprised that some of the fallen angels were originally thought to be more demonic in nature, and I'm not frightened of things that aren't prettied up ;) })
I suppose that for us, living in the 21st century, we just have to make our own judgement as to how far this 'demonising' has to do with a medieval fear of certain concepts that we can now move beyond. For instance, a distrust of the female principle, amongst other phobias. We just have different phobias now :bugeyed:
So far I have not found where the astro & elemental associations are coming from.
The Goetia don't have traditional astrological or elemental associations, though some people suggest that they do have and they are lost/obscured, and there are a few suggested versions around. Could you post a few examples Alta of the ones used in this deck? Ideally from the first few spirits all in a row. It will probably be obvious then whose version is being used.
Some of the Goetic demons are attributed to astrological signs in the text, but only a couple of them. Each though has a title (or which there are 7), Duke, King etc.. which relates to a metal (Copper, Gold etc. used for their amulets) which relates to one of the 7 traditional planets.
Rudd relates the Goetic demons to angels of the Shemhamephorash as do other modern authors, so although the demons don't classically have star sign or elemental attributions (at least in a complete system), the Shem angels do, so their paired angel would determine the star sign. The GD has their own version also which matches the angels and demons up on the tarot minors and by inference the planet and decan of the card.
Some also are given directions which relate to signs and elements in the text, though they don't seem to be in a clear/consistent pattern or order. There are different orders also from different authors.
This (http://tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=95841) thread discusses some of the issues and may be helpful :)
Well, mine arrived today (ahead of so much other stuff which I ordered way before and which I am beginning to worry about...)
I have to say I absolutely love the look of these cards. As soon as I opened them up, I just knew that I - soooo not-Oracle-y, so not-Angel-y - was going to love working with them.
This is the Oracle deck I have been dreaming of and I don't have a clue what all the theory is being talked about *upstairs* but I know I love the cards. I have had a flick through the book and I see that he does talk about Weyer's 1563 treatise, so given a few hours with the book I should begin to get to grips with it. If it broadly makes sense to me then I am unpedantically happy because visually, these cards are fabulous.
Some of them are a bit uninspiring perhaps - they just show a graveyard cross (like Bileth for example) with ivy or some such thing. But others (I especially like the ones with engravings, like Furfur, or superimposed owl heads on crumbling statues) I just love. Very well collaged, weirdly juxtaposed, eerie, morbid, misty. I haven't read any of the book meanings yet; first impressions give me the sense of a miasmic cemetery mist seeping. They appeal to the inner brooding dark teen in me that would sit scowling under graveyard yew trees! :D
Such an atmospheric deck. I am gonna love working with it. Flimsy cardstock, but it will do, I think, and I have the perfect red-lined black velvet bag to keep them in. The cardstock is slightly better than Suckling's Dragon Tarot, but glossier.
I'm so glad I got this. I was right to be excited about its release. I'm moving more and more towards Oracles at this phase of my divination journey and this deck came at just the right time.
Ashtaroot
11-03-2011, 15:34
Thank you Le Fanu:) now I can't wait to get mine. Amazon says Apr 4 :rolleyes:
Well I sat up in bed and have read the main bulk of the book (except the individual card meanings) and it all makes sense to me now. Very interesting text. I just need someone to come along now and say "oh they got it all completely wrong" :D
My enjoyment was marred slightly by my bf looking at the cards and saying "what ugly cards! They look like a bad 1st year Art School photo-collage project"
Don't you just hate it when partners spoil deck enjoyment! :(
But I'm dying to get reading with this deck. Perhaps only over the weekend will I get the calm and the time, I fear.
Some of my favourite cards strewn across my reading cloth this morning. Just to tempt })
Dusk Till Dawn
11-03-2011, 19:39
Nice cloth! And I knew you would like it! I have been using mine every day since I got it. And now, I will go and see if I find a cloth like that..
Thanks! That's my Green Velvet reading cloth.
I do like this oracle. I'm determined to give this one time. It has passed all the initial tests...
BodhiSeed
11-03-2011, 20:21
Well I wasn't even remotely interested in this deck until I read BrightCrazyStar's post (#65). Now I am completely intrigued and feel the need to research this when time allows. And of course seeing Le Fanu's scan of some of the cards in this deck just enticed me further.:D Thanks to all of you for reviewing this deck and supplying further information on the source of its information.
Libra8ca
12-03-2011, 01:19
Love the color of your reading cloth Le Fanu!
I've been working with this deck for a while now and I try to read the cards intuitively first and then compare it with the description in the book. I really like the photo-collage art but have found that the title bars in some of the cards irritate me. They make wonderful borderless cards and then put the title bar in the middle on some cards ?!?! :( but otherwise I love them!
Funny, the black bars bother me less than I thought they would. I find the keywords very helpful, but my own take on the cards, because of the mood evoked, is not always in tune with the given meanings.
Funny how everyone likes my mossy graveside reading cloth! LOL This was my cheap reading cloth. I came across a huge piece of green velvet in a sale bin at a fabric shop. then a friend was throwing out some silk drapes because of an allergy. I snipped up my large piece of velvet and took it to my seamstress (who is a man. Can a man be a seamstress?) from Dubai who told me the silk is of excellent quality. He lined the small squares with the mustard coloured silk and I now have lovely little reading cloths for every occasion!
Well I sat up in bed and have read the main bulk of the book (except the individual card meanings) and it all makes sense to me now. Very interesting text. I just need someone to come along now and say "oh they got it all completely wrong" :DI have finally gotten through all 72 cards comparing them to the Goetia in the Lesser Key. While he modernized the descriptions, he really stayed on-script. And, to an extent Suckling made some of them a little nicer (okay, less scary) than in the Lesser Key. The planetary and elemental attributions are further along and I haven't checked them yet, but considering, they are likely correct as well.
brightcrazystar
12-03-2011, 09:37
The planetary attributions are derived from the planetary metals their seals are put on or what king of kings they serve.
These descriptions from the Goetia originated with the French Manuscript that Weir's Pseudomarchia was based on for the original ones. Wier expended it from 46, presumeably by adding in other papers. This made parts of it very hard to understand. The thing is every person who gets a hold of this work made it more and more vicious sounding, mainly because it was likely to pull more readers, and get them less in trouble with the church/law.
The original French text is more clear - all of these are kings, or regeants, and some are counts among kings, some are marquis among kings, some are dukes or earles among kings, and so on - some even being Kings among Kings.
All hearken back to one being - Amaymon - King of the East, and in dominion of all of creation. He is known by his name prineumaton. He is velied in part, by all the others - his most cognate being Andromalius. He is the being that the religion of Islam calls Allah - his name is from the arabic "Al-Mumain" or "The Blessed One." He is lord of all the Jinn. This text is more likely to be connected to Peter D'Abano, either actually or mythically - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pietro_d'Abano for more.
He was an Italian of great proficiency with certain Astrology and Qabala that French Grimoire Traditions rever as a master of the arts. He was alleged to have written grimoires of the type that this deck is based on, but there is unfortunately no proof of his actual work, for he died awaiting inquisition in the 1300's. But I am sure quite a few people made money selling a book, valid or otherwise, that was attributed to the hand of D'Abano. One of those books is likely what ended up starting the whole Goetic Tradition, by inspiring Wier.
Glad you came back to the thread brightcrazystar. Thanks, interesting background & information.
Ashtaroot
17-03-2011, 15:31
The planetary attributions are derived from the planetary metals their seals are put on or what king of kings they serve.
These descriptions from the Goetia originated with the French Manuscript that Weir's Pseudomarchia was based on for the original ones. Wier expended it from 46, presumeably by adding in other papers. This made parts of it very hard to understand. The thing is every person who gets a hold of this work made it more and more vicious sounding, mainly because it was likely to pull more readers, and get them less in trouble with the church/law.
The original French text is more clear - all of these are kings, or regeants, and some are counts among kings, some are marquis among kings, some are dukes or earles among kings, and so on - some even being Kings among
Kings.
All hearken back to one being - Amaymon - King of the East, and in dominion of all of creation. He is known by his name prineumaton. He is velied in part, by all the others - his most cognate being Andromalius. He is the being that the religion of Islam calls Allah - his name is from the arabic "Al-Mumain" or "The Blessed One." He is lord of all the Jinn. This text is more likely to be connected to Peter D'Abano, either actually or mythically - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pietro_d'Abano for more.
He was an Italian of great proficiency with certain Astrology and Qabala that French Grimoire Traditions rever as a master of the arts. He was alleged to have written grimoires of the type that this deck is based on, but there is unfortunately no proof of his actual work, for he died awaiting inquisition in the 1300's. But I am sure quite a few people made money selling a book, valid or
otherwise, that was attributed to the hand of D'Abano. One of those books is likely what ended up starting the whole Goetic Tradition, by inspiring Wier.
While reading your posts and reading all the names I recognized the name, these names are well known in the middle east as jinn names. But al maymoon is another djin names and it is not one of the names of Allah.
These are the 99 names of Allah
http://www.sufism.org/society/asma/
Per the Quran the jinn is one of "Allah" creation the one third you mentioned on top. The trickster the Hidden ones. Created of smokeless fire. Also there is a famous warning against the tricksters from jinn or human " minal jinnati wal nass".
I grew up with all that stuff and very familiar with it.
It is intriguing on how in the west these names took on a different shapes and attribute. I can understand how all are the same beings. In the Andalusia times and in the birth of Kabbalah most scholars from Islam Judaism and Christian worked together, their goal is mystical knowledge. The schism happened later with the ignorance. And the scholars from these religions were forbidden to work together and also they were called heretics from their own religions.
I just received this deck today, I haven't had a chance to look at the book yet.
I loved the cards and I actually like the words across( I didn't think I would). Make it seem like some sort of research/studies/investigation. I looked at some of the cards and I realized that wow this is jinn deck even with some pf the names being westernized.
In the middleast the names are known and everyone know not to say them cause, there is lot of power in a name. I have seen those names written in the Arabic magic squares and things.
It is a beautiful deck I think so far.
Ashtaroot
17-03-2011, 15:47
One more thing
Please don't confuse my name with card number28;)
Ashtaroot is a Phoenician goddess of love and fertility aka Ishtar/Isis etc...
brightcrazystar
17-03-2011, 17:02
One more thing
Please don't confuse my name with card number28;)
Ashtaroot is a Phoenician goddess of love and fertility aka Ishtar/Isis etc...
I am very familiar with Phonecian dieties. I have strong connections in my family past. 'ShTRUT (Esh-tarooht) is the root of both your screenname which is homage to Diety..., and the occultists who recorded a demonized version of it which has no forensic connection to most elements of the Phoenician Diety.
But 'ShTRUT was also a diety renknnowed with lust, war, and terror among the lands of Canaan as well. Not "terror" like we think or dread, this was just a sign she was a "suckah free bad-ass" who actually had the *real* name of eL.
TO SPECIFY, in your list "Al-Mumain" is actually listed:
Al-Muhaymin
The Guardian
Unto thee O Prophet have We vouchsafed this divine writ,
setting forth the truth, confirming the truth
of whatever there still remains of earlier revelations
and determining what is true therein.
Judge, then, between the followers of earlier revelation
in accordance with what God has bestowed from on high,
and do not follow their errant views,
forsaking the truth that has come unto thee.
Al-Ma'idah 5:48, tr. Asad
You can also find this on This Name:
Al-Mu’min
(The Guardian of Faith)
One who recites this name will be free from any harm.
This is the aspect of Allah by his name who is petitioned with Dua' prayer, which traditionally begins "all praise be to Allah, the Pure and the Blessed one..."
This is the 16th tenet of Dua (active prayer), during times when prayer is especially potent, and said to be the greatest weapon of a Muslim.
16. When one begins the prayer, i.e. with "all praise be to Allah, the Pure and the Blessed one"
http://www.jannah.org/articles/duah.html
http://www.zawaj.com/askbilqis/dua-in-islam/
http://tayyibaat.wordpress.com/2008/11/08/al-muhaymin-the-protector/
http://www.muslim.org/english-quran/ch040.pdf
The premise that guided this thought in early occultism was that if pure diety was the highest octave of thought, all attempts at any other thing could only contact lesser beings than that highest octave. Therefore ALL dieties, even their own were rejected by transcendentalists. I am a different type of mystic; who believes that if you call diety by any name and interact with it in any capacity, you can acheive contact with the highest octave, or the lowest grime depending on how you let it impact your actions and interactions with other manifestations of Life. My finding is people who lack desire for details develop superstition, those who desire details develop skepticism and enthusiasm and are tasked with balancing these continually. It is not an easy way, but it is mine. This was not a claim against ANY religion, but perhaps a claim against those who commit attrocity in the NAME of religion.
As for the deck, I rather like the names on the cards as well. I envision them as bars, much like the seal is a name, and I can lift or lean on it to address the energies of the oracle deck. I charged the entire deck to my ring and my lamen and it works well, but I have done ceremonial exploration of the source texts for over twenty years when I did my first Goetic working before the ago of 10. Of course, I have more accurate jewelry now. ;)
Ashtaroot
17-03-2011, 18:58
My last post was not directed at you brightcrazystar:) I am well aware of your knowledge of the land of Canaan.
I am not defending or debating, simply trying to understand where you are going with your explanations which are full of heavy information about these cards.
The way I see God/ Creator is beyond the walls of religions.
I am well aware with the Doua/ prayer and with all the sourats. I have read the Quran many times. Everyone does doua/prayers/invocations/suplication it is all the same thing no?
The thing is the Arabic language is very tricky the same word can mean many totally different things and very hard to translate, lot of words don't even exist in the English language. There is more than one translation of the Quran and one word changes the whole meaning of the Surat.
I know the name al Mumain and al Maymoon to be jinn. But you were right al Mu'min (the believer) al Muhaimin ( the controller) are names of Allah.
So let me try to get this are you saying that all the fallen angel cards are jinn the 1/3 that rebelled right?
And all the false deities for the people of the book are in this deck also?
I recognized number 55 the peacock as an important symbol in remote Arabic/Islamic villages in Iraq I believe. It is still treated as a deity now.
Ashtaroot
17-03-2011, 19:03
The premise that guided this thought in early occultism was that if pure diety was the highest octave of thought, all attempts at any other thing could only contact lesser beings than that highest octave. Therefore ALL dieties, even their own were rejected by transcendentalists. I am a different type of mystic; who believes that if you call diety by any name and interact with it in any capacity, you can acheive contact with the highest octave, or the lowest grime depending on how you let it impact your actions and interactions with other manifestations of Life. My finding is people who lack desire for details develop superstition, those who desire details develop skepticism and enthusiasm and are tasked with balancing these continually. It is not an easy way, but it is mine. This was not a claim against ANY religion, but perhaps a claim against those who commit attrocity in the NAME of religion.
Totally agree with you on this.:thumbsup:
brightcrazystar
17-03-2011, 20:07
My last post was not directed at you brightcrazystar:) I am well aware of your knowledge of the land of Canaan.
I am not defending or debating, simply trying to understand where you are going with your explanations which are full of heavy information about these cards.
I am going crazy hoping my Friends and Fellows in Japan are ok. I am not sleeping, so I need to stay busy. Not sure what my usual excuse for being so complex is. But right now, I am surfing looking for things to talk about.
The way I see God/ Creator is beyond the walls of religions.
I am well aware with the Doua/ prayer and with all the sourats. I have read the Quran many times. Everyone does doua/prayers/invocations/suplication it is all the same thing no?
Yes, but all who pray to what they name "Allah" do not pray to the same being. What we name things is important, for it is "by names and images that all powers are awakened and reawakened." Some may be slaves to evil ignorance or their own illness, and believe that evil is Good or even God (Fred Phelps comes to mind, though I try not to judge people.]
The thing is the Arabic language is very tricky the same word can mean many totally different things and very hard to translate, lot of words don't even exist in the English language. There is more than one translation of the Quran and one word changes the whole meaning of the Surat.
I know the name al Mumain and al Maymoon to be jinn. But you were right al Mu'min (the believer) al Muhaimin ( the controller) are names of Allah.
Mahomet, Mahahoomud, Muhammed, and all other attempted spellings of the name of the Prophet of Islam are just poor attempts to show pronunciation to people who do not know Arabic well enough to read his name - NONE of which contain the subtleties and contexts of the Arabic. This is why I advocate study of original languages, but of course there is also a mixture of compassion and common sense we apply to our writing to make any progress. I know you know this, but this is also why I have each time abandoned the study of the Quran, because I cannot read it. I wish I could find a concordance of the Quran in Arabic. This was how I started with Hebrew and Greek.
So let me try to get this are you saying that all the fallen angel cards are jinn the 1/3 that rebelled right?
And all the false deities for the people of the book are in this deck also?
Yes. The idea is that these are the "bigwigs" the 72 kings of the 1/3 that rebelled. Some are more remorseful than others and some wish humanity no hard. Some people of religions are actually contacting these beings when they thing they are speaking to their "God." The deceitful ones tend to be the worst of the bunch this way, but some just enjoy the power without man. Now, this is the important thing - ALL can be redeemed, except the Three who impersonated the God of the People of the Books so they turned on each other. This is the falsity of hateful aspects of the three religions of Judiasm, Christianity, and Islam - The texts composite are not saying all who profess these religions are decieved, just the entire religious structure of The One God of these Three Religions have been infiltrated with the worst of the worst; hypocrites who seek to demonize their own faith, their own texts seem to verify this as well.
I recognized number 55 the peacock as an important symbol in remote Arabic/Islamic villages in Iraq I believe. It is still treated as a deity now.
That sounds like the Yazidi, who are a very mystical Shiite sect with ancient occult connections to other mystics... with an almost luciferean notion of religion that involves no belief in the devil. They rever the Melekh Ta'us, the God of Kings, in his form the peacock. The peacock is seen as the emmissary of God on Earth, not God itself. It is honored, not worshipped. They are very interesting, and I speak to my lodgemaster in the O.T.O. about them quite a bit, cause he studied them a bit.
As for Andrealphus, his name is a cognate of Andre and Alpha, ending in the Latin "-us" to indicate it is a name. Andreas in Greek means "warrior" and Alpha as the first letter of the Greek Alphabet indicates "Primary" in both strength and number. This is exactly the Yazidi reference to the Peacock as the revered bird symbolic of, essentially, Michael. They also refer to him as the "Satan" but he has no resemblance to the evil being. So you are essentially correct. This is probably connected to the Yazidi. The source texts give no precaution to employing him, nor any suspicion for treachery.
Ashtaroot
17-03-2011, 21:52
Our thoughts and prayers to all that are in Japan))))))))))))))))))
Just one little thing. I know names are very important but the word Allah it really means God in Arabic and everyone uses it no matter what religion, it is the way you say Omy God (ya Allah )or God willing( inshaallah ) etc.. Arab Christian , Arab Jewish , Arab Muslim Arab druze Arab anything they all use that word. Really to this day it is used as a word not a name. In the last 20 years when fundamentalist emerged they started enphasizing that word, everyone else still talks normal and uses it as a word.
Thank you for the info on the Yazidi.
Ashtaroot
18-03-2011, 17:54
Today I read the book and my first reading with the deck..
Yes it is very good and you feel it has some weight..if you know what I mean.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=140526&l=3d74da8b41&id=100001960215278
Alas I don't have a Le Fanu spread cloth;)
Tansey Ella
19-03-2011, 08:36
At the risk of sounding very stupid, I'm asking these questions. I grew up in a very Christan background. The fallen angels are those who turned against God and went with Satan ( an angel himself). This is what I have been taught. I also was taught that these are the angels that took the bodies of men and married the beautiful women prior to the flood. I am not going to debate whether all this is true- its just what is written in the bible.
The fallen angels deck-is it these angels? is Satan included?
Forgive me for not having any other background but that is what I was taught . I recognize the gods like Bail ( sp) and a few others b/c the Israelites were constantly getting involved with the gods of the nations and straying from Jehovah. I am familiar with all this as I have read the Hebrew part of the Bible more than once.
I'm open to anything anyone has to say, not married to the Bible version of things.
Ashtaroot
19-03-2011, 08:59
Just one little thing. I know names are very important but the word Allah it really means God in Arabic and everyone uses it no matter what religion, it is the way you say Omy God (ya Allah )or God willing( inshaallah ) etc.. Arab Christian , Arab Jewish , Arab Muslim Arab druze Arab anything they all use that word. Really to this day it is used as a word not a name. In the last 20 years when fundamentalist emerged they started enphasizing that word, everyone else still talks normal and uses it as a word.
.
Correction
Originally it is a name and the first one of the 99 names, but in the middleastern world it has been used as a word.
bjmeacham
19-03-2011, 11:34
While reading your posts and reading all the names I recognized the name, these names are well known in the middle east as jinn names. But al maymoon is another djin names and it is not one of the names of Allah.
These are the 99 names of Allah
http://www.sufism.org/society/asma/
Per the Quran the jinn is one of "Allah" creation the one third you mentioned on top. The trickster the Hidden ones. Created of smokeless fire. Also there is a famous warning against the tricksters from jinn or human " minal jinnati wal nass".
I grew up with all that stuff and very familiar with it.
It is intriguing on how in the west these names took on a different shapes and attribute. I can understand how all are the same beings. In the Andalusia times and in the birth of Kabbalah most scholars from Islam Judaism and Christian worked together, their goal is mystical knowledge. The schism happened later with the ignorance. And the scholars from these religions were forbidden to work together and also they were called heretics from their own religions.
I just received this deck today, I haven't had a chance to look at the book yet.
I loved the cards and I actually like the words across( I didn't think I would). Make it seem like some sort of research/studies/investigation. I looked at some of the cards and I realized that wow this is jinn deck even with some pf the names being westernized.
In the middleast the names are known and everyone know not to say them cause, there is lot of power in a name. I have seen those names written in the Arabic magic squares and things.
It is a beautiful deck I think so far.
I just got my cards today and I think they are very beautiful too. I haven't had a chance to read the book that came with the deck, but in anticipation of receiving the deck I discovered another book that was just published, and it talks about the djinn. Its title is "The Vengeful Djinn" and is written by Rosemary Ellen Guiley and Philip J. Imborgno. I come from a western Christian background also, so I don't really know much about the djinn. Of course I have nothing to compare the information in it to, so it could be totally a bunch of bunk but it did give me a great deal to think about, and is helping me understand more about some of the traditions this deck appears to be based on. I just thought I'd mention it to anybody who might want to explore this topic more.
Ashtaroot
19-03-2011, 12:58
I just got my cards today and I think they are very beautiful too. I haven't had a chance to read the book that came with the deck, but in anticipation of receiving the deck I discovered another book that was just published, and it talks about the djinn. Its title is "The Vengeful Djinn" and is written by Rosemary Ellen Guiley and Philip J. Imborgno. I come from a western Christian background also, so I don't really know much about the djinn. Of course I have nothing to compare the information in it to, so it could be totally a bunch of bunk but it did give me a great deal to think about, and is helping me understand more about some of the traditions this deck appears to be based on. I just thought I'd mention it to anybody who might want to explore this topic more.
I just got that book too, I wanted to start reading it before I post anything on it..sync sync sync.
bjmeacham
19-03-2011, 13:55
I just got that book too, I wanted to start reading it before I post anything on it..sync sync sync.
This may be going off topic, but I would really appreciate it if you would post your impressions of the ideas in the book if you get the chance, as I don't have any background knowledge of the topic and I'd love to hear what someone who knows more about it has to say about it :) I did a search of the forum and found very little discussion about the djinn, and I would like to hear more.
brightcrazystar
19-03-2011, 14:03
At the risk of sounding very stupid, I'm asking these questions. I grew up in a very Christan background. The fallen angels are those who turned against God and went with Satan ( an angel himself). This is what I have been taught. I also was taught that these are the angels that took the bodies of men and married the beautiful women prior to the flood. I am not going to debate whether all this is true- its just what is written in the bible.
The fallen angels deck-is it these angels? is Satan included?
Forgive me for not having any other background but that is what I was taught . I recognize the gods like Bail ( sp) and a few others b/c the Israelites were constantly getting involved with the gods of the nations and straying from Jehovah. I am familiar with all this as I have read the Hebrew part of the Bible more than once. I'm open to anything anyone has to say, not married to the Bible version of things.
Welcome to the discussion!
To answer this, certain Angels, led by Azraphael according to the Book of Enoch, merged with Humanity through woman. They are called the "Beni-Elohim", or Sons of God. This is what is meant when it is said, the Sons of God lay with the Daughters of Men and begat the Nephelim. Goliath in the Bible was a descendent of these. These beings were what were washed away in the flood called the Deluge.
This practice was carried forth from the City of Ur, the time of Enoch, to the time of Noah. This is a remnant of a time where animals were worshipped, and later humans as gods. There was a time when mankind allowed animals to lay with women, before they were made pregnant, believing that the child would have some of the powers or qualities of the animals. The animal would be sacrificed, often while inside the woman. This is the secret of the using a virgin to hunt a unicorn, and slaying it when it lay its head in her lap. This is why beastiality is mentioned in the Bible as a specific sin. This is something that actually kept going on for centuries and was part of certain secret rites and in places public life in Canaan. Children who were, for lack of a word, developmentally challenged by inbreeding and beastiality, were offered to Molech, Shamash, and Dagan, in the fields of the valley of Hinnom. A horrible act by our sensibilities, but not their own culture. They were ignorant of much of our ideas, such as romantic love that was invented in the 17th century, or event the nature of humans being of a different "Kingdom" in biological terms. They were as ignorant of human development as people in the middle ages were of Hygiene.
In fact many cultures have stories of this, and it is the origins of Rome, Greek myth, and many others, Celtic, Native American, and Asian. So many animals and people mating. The Bible as you read it is one side of the story, which is that one God is the Right God for a right people. The Bible's Old Testament is a VERY difficult to understand book, and people who do not read it in Hebrew will never understand 1/10th of the context.
The myth for example, of the God-child in the manger of a beast with a virgin woman is a sterile formula of saying he was as powerful as the beast-men born of heaven, but with no carnal price or corruption. It is a reconciliation of Phoenician, Babylonian, Egyptian, and Jewish thought.
The beast, or as most people prefer to call it, Animal Self, is the aspect of the soul that Desires. It hungers, lusts, and has it own powers. The lamb, most demure of animals, and most desired for centuries - was the animal self of the God-Child of purity, to the reasoning of the Jew. The Lion was the Warrior King, and the Lamb was the Suffering Servant. They believed the Messiah would come as both. The episode of Gethsemane is Jeshua realizing he is not yet the Warrior King, but that he is Suffering Servant. This is why he does not struggle when they come to take him away, and only attacks his own disciple.
Then John of Patmos in his Apocalypsis, called his "Revelation" gives account of a spiritual vision of Jesua returning as the Warrior King.
If we allow ourself to access certain mindsets with occult science, we can still use and apply the lessons in those lifes, without completely living those experiences. There are living experiences of humans as cannibals, idol worshippers, rapists, murderers, child killers, and much more - not the least of which was unuseful to humanity as a whole. but NONE of which need repeat itself as our path is one of GROWTH and transcendent of the base.
This brings me back to the subject, the roots of all these things are in the words you speak everyday. Humanity has almost destroyed itself time and time again looking for its own nature. Those who say they do something in the name of God, be it Allah, the God of Moses, or Jesus, but what they do or are asked to do IS NOT OF GOD - Weyer says do it in the names of the imposters who masquerade as such. They rule the world through four dynamics: what they eat, what they say, what they do, and what they build. By your fruits shall you know them, it is said.
Solomon was made King. He could ask for ANYTHING of god when he went into the Holy of Holies. All he asked for is Wisdom. God was pleased, and said The time has come for man to build my house, you solomon will be my architect. (Note Moses was Chief Architect of Pharoah). He gave him a key, a Ring, used to compel the fallen "Goetia", these fallen angels, to build that house. All was fine, until Solomon who worshipped only God, divided God from himself, to worship Molech by crushing a cricket. Remember, this was a REGRESSIVE stage back to the times of Child Sacrifice, and consider in relation to all the children killed to put solomon on his throne. That was the fall of the Temple. The remains of that first Temple were put in Ge-Hinnom.
This is where the basis of "Gehenna" as a name for hell is found.
The ultimate message of God's unity is HUMAN and CHILD sacrifice is not now, if it ever was, necessary. He has been telling mankind this since the Story of Cain. Animal sacrifice is a different story for different religions, perhaps. If you want to sacrifice someone, sacrifice the only person you have the right to, YOURSELF.
But we say we know this, and then look at how many people are willing to kill other, even if it mean they die in the process. They do it for riches, fear, vengeance, and even for lust or obsession. This means they stay slaves to the material illusion, when the base material is not evil - it is simply perfoming it's function. The cheetah is a faster animal that the zebra, with the teeth necessary, the claws necessary, and even the hunger necessary to catch, kill, and eat its prey. It is not evil, neither is the "fallen" angel. A person pretending to be a cheetah in a world of zebras however, is not a cheetah. He is going against his nature. The fallen are mostly just exhibiting their nature. They do not wish us harm until they are abused.
Well, very few desire us harm. Most simply do not see God anymore; but they can - THROUGH US. We, by this work, take on the role of intermediary between the divine and the "fallen." The lesson for them is to seek redemption for rebelling against humanity's favor in God's eyes, and ours is to not give in to temptation. That is why, as Solomon, we seek wisdom. But we must have the dilligence to not abuse the power we are given, or to regress to baser spiritual models that are no longer necessary, such as sacrifice for aggrandizement. This deck is a model of how they can be rehabilitated - IF we are strong enough to do our part, and not abuse them.
Tansey Ella
19-03-2011, 16:47
Thank you for that very detailed post. I am familiar with the references to the Hebrew scriptures but others not as much. You did a very good job of condensing it.
The bible does not say much about the fallen angels, except they followed Satan ( called Lucifer i believe- at least that is what is generally accepted ) .Satan wanted to be like God, and challenged His right to rule mankind. The Bible does not say how many left with him, but seems to imply quite a number.
I often think of the rolling Stones album " Sympathy For the Devil" and assume they must have contacted humans and plead their case to obtain sympathy . ( not the Stones :) but humans in general)
Would I need protection while using this deck? The Bible says these angels are assigned to Tartarus ( 2 peter 2: 4)( pits of darkness to await final to await their judgment. It says Satan is like a roaring lion , they know their time is limited and intend to take as many humans with them as they can , eg, they are going to be destroyed and want to trap as many humans to also be destroyed.
Using these cards what purpose can they serve? Can they harm us? As I said, do we need protection? What help can they give us if they are really in darkness awaiting judgment?
Just some questions before I purchase a deck of cards that might be a lot like the NOVT, eg, have strong influence and severely affected a number on this board. I bought it and I believe I met the " twins" . I did not use it for long as it is a very powerful deck.
brightcrazystar
19-03-2011, 17:25
Thank you for that very detailed post. I am familiar with the references to the Hebrew scriptures but others not as much. You did a very good job of condensing it.
Thank you for the feedback!
The bible does not say much about the fallen angels, except they followed Satan ( called Lucifer i believe- at least that is what is generally accepted ) .Satan wanted to be like God, and challenged His right to rule mankind. The Bible does not say how many left with him, but seems to imply quite a number.
I often think of the rolling Stones album " Sympathy For the Devil" and assume they must have contacted humans and plead their case to obtain sympathy . ( not the Stones :) but humans in general)
Well Satan, as such, is not adressed in these works.
Would I need protection while using this deck? The Bible says these angels are assigned to Tartarus ( 2 peter 2: 4)( pits of darkness to await final to await their judgment. It says Satan is like a roaring lion , they know their time is limited and intend to take as many humans with them as they can , eg, they are going to be destroyed and want to trap as many humans to also be destroyed.
Tartarus is a Platonic concept, in the work of a non-Christian about 400 years before the time of Christ. It is a removed from Earth as Earth is removed from Heaven. Plato says in Gorgias that in days of Titans, when you die, you are to be judged. If judgement falls upon you and Cronos finds you guilty, you get sent to Tartarus, "A deep place".
In Plato's work, the Republic - he likens mankind emerging from a cave, deep and dark. In Plato's work, which is full of reincarnation references, it is clear, the Tartarus is where all life emerges from, so he is essentially speaking of the fact that if Cronos judged you for punishment, the punishement was not being released from the cycle of incarnation... you had to come back for another life, so to speak. Doing this until you merge completely with Godhead is the basis of NeoPlatonism. This is what it is meant when it speaks of Enoch "going with God."
Look at all this Pagan reincarnation in the origins of that supposedly anti-christian anti-reincarnation bible. ;)
Using these cards what purpose can they serve? Can they harm us? As I said, do we need protection? What help can they give us if they are really in darkness awaiting judgment?
Just some questions before I purchase a deck of cards that might be a lot like the NOVT, eg, have strong influence and severely affected a number on this board. I bought it and I believe I met the " twins" . I did not use it for long as it is a very powerful deck.
I do not know what NOVT is. Where can I find more about this?
As for protection, connection to the divine providence you embody (God in YOU), and not losing the connection to that is enough, and the ONLY requirement. It is not possible to control it otherwise. How you achieve that, Lords Prayer, Clicking your heels three times, or singing Mary had a little lamb is all up to you and what gets you in contact with the infinite. The models you understand are always best in these cases.
What is ironic is we interact with these beings all the time. We just don't single them out like this. That is what these cards help do. There is only much danger in them as there is in you giving in to lesser urges. Generally, I use guidance from on high. Just as "my Angel" is emmissary from God to me, so am I the messenger to them, from God. Just as "my Angel" instructs me, so do I instruct them.
My Angel trained me in this work from a very young age. Doing this work and not being a jerk is my training. Them doing their work is theirs. My Angel is not the top of the ladder, he answers to the overseer of him, up to the Kerubim and beyond. We are all cogs in the machine, a machine built by a Grand Architect. That Grand Architect made humanity the pilot of the machine. This is all about learning to control that chariot, called the Merkhabh.
A good rule to consider in seeking wisdom to work with things like this is the Golden Rule. Ask no being to do something you would not be willing to do yourself. Treat no being in a way you would not will to be treated. Apply this to the lowest of the low, and the highest of the high.
Tansey Ella
19-03-2011, 18:04
Thank you for all the info and advice. I must consider if I wish to work with this deck. This deck seems like it might bring the same energy that the NOVT deck did eg, powerful.
I bought the NOVT and it is not a deck to take lightly.
http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/cards/new-orleans-voodoo/
These are very real and powerful spirits. I met the "twins". I feel a bit drawn to the spirits, but it is a bit frightening too. If you are respectful and make half an effort, the spirits will respond to you. Some on the board have not had good experiences with this deck. A quick search will show the problems. The deck requires you to " birth it" and in some cases marry it. You will just have to check it out to understand all this. all I know is the spirits associated with the deck are powerful and do respond if approached correctly. You know what they say about ' be careful what you wish for".
Voodoo is much more involved than this deck or book, however the deck gives a good overview of the main entities involved.
Ashtaroot
20-03-2011, 20:04
This may be going off topic, but I would really appreciate it if you would post your impressions of the ideas in the book if you get the chance, as I don't have any background knowledge of the topic and I'd love to hear what someone who knows more about it has to say about it :) I did a search of the forum and found very little discussion about the djinn, and I would like to hear more.
Most defenatly :)
Tansey Ella
21-03-2011, 04:41
I found this on line.
Are these some of the names of the fallen angels the deck refers to?
http://www.whiterosesgarden.com/Nature_of_Evil/fallen_angels/fallen_angels.htm
brightcrazystar
21-03-2011, 05:09
That site is a bit more encyclopedic about things not in this deck. I don't know how accurate the whole thing is. I can post links when am at home, but there are in my previous posts TONS of things to google. A great place to start is twilit grotto esoteric archives. Joseph Peterson is a definitive soure for authentic esoteric archives.
hulloo! :-) im eagerly awaiting for my delivery of these cards. When i first heard about them i thought they sounded a bit "dark" for my liking but when i saw them on amazon i have to admit they made me curious and i did actually like the images on the cards :-) has anyone used this deck before! I apologise i havent had the time to read this whole thread . many blessings! Nyx
Lots of material within the thread, just read back. I and several others have tried reading with them.
Tansey Ella
24-03-2011, 13:27
BCS
sorry, I did not mean to make you into the " go to" to person for the deck. I was just thinking fallen angels and with Christan background my mind went to the obvious . I will do research and check them out. they do look interesting.
(I am also not too lazy to goggle:) )
you have been an enormous help with much info.
TE
brightcrazystar
24-03-2011, 13:35
no problem.
I love writing about pre-renniasance magi. I enjoy and engage the whole of Indo-European Magic (and Ancient Chinese Magic, too). Thanks for the feedback!
HighPriestess
28-03-2011, 02:57
I just bought the deck yesterday (at $19.95 CDN, it practically belongs on the bargain shelf IMO).
I had some misgivings about the art at first, so let me say this: The teeny tiny pictures that were first circulating on the 'net DO NOT do this deck justice. at all. I love how the images have a "dark" tone but still make use of bright colours. Some of the cards have an almost psychedelic look to them.
Some other stuff I like about the deck:
- Suckling's re-interpretation of these angels as Jungian archetypal forces or spirits akin to the daimones in Greek lore rather than the evil beings in medieval Christian thought. I feel this makes them more accessible to a non-Christian audience.
- Some might hate this, but I like that some of the angels are feminine gendered (despite the assertion that angels are technically androgynous) and there is one that's completely gender neutral. However, I don't necessarily agree with all of the gender assignments in the text
Some stuff I don't like about the deck:
- I found the spreads and the interpretations of cards in that spread to be somewhat lacking. There are a couple of blurbs where card X in this position means ___ while in another position it means ___, but this just seems like such a cookie cutter, insert-slot-A-into-part-B sort of reading. I guess it might be helpful for those who aren't familiar with oracle decks, or even tarot, since there are lots of comparisons to tarot in the book
- I don't have an issue with the keywords being on the cards, but it seems there are a lot that mean "upheaval" or "danger" which I think takes away from the individuality of each angel. I think it would have been better if they had chosen different words that were more specific to each angel. What sort of upheaval? Emotional, mental, physical?
- Some of the elemental/astrological associations were a bit strange (I associate the moon with water and mars with fire, whereas they're both associated with earth in the book) but as the book says, you don't have to include them if they aren't your thing.
Overall though it seems like a very nice set, and I think it would be a good companion oracle for my Tarot of Vampyres.
Interesting observations. I have been using mine and still trying to get used to it. I like it a lot, love the goth-ness! :D I find that it works best for one card draws though, so I hear what you're saying about some of the spreads in the book.
If I do a "more than one" card draw, it makes very little sense and is always wildly irrelevant!
HighPriestess
28-03-2011, 06:35
Interesting observations. I have been using mine and still trying to get used to it. I like it a lot, love the goth-ness! :D I find that it works best for one card draws though, so I hear what you're saying about some of the spreads in the book.
If I do a "more than one" card draw, it makes very little sense and is always wildly irrelevant!
I find that with most of my oracles (except for, funnily enough, my Goddess Guidance Oracle, but maybe that's because the cards are all so positive), less is definitely more. I think it might be because oracles have their own systems so each card has to be more specific, whereas with tarot it's almost like each card is a piece of a jigsaw puzzle.
I really like Kiki's readings over on the Tarot Dame blog. She shows how the different cards might fit together in a way that's relevant to a given situation.
Yes, Nina directed me to Dame Tarot's readings with this deck on her blog. I hadn't seen them and I found how she works with them very enlightening. I posted the above before I had checked it out!
Tzadkiel
28-03-2011, 23:44
Hi at all,
I've been thinking of an oracle using the spirits of the Goetia for some time and now it's available!
At first glance I didn't like the gothic touch using photos of graves and tomb stones. But I'm starting to get used to it and to discover the different layers in the artwork of the cards.
I received my copy yesterday and drew a single card. It was ALLOCER and in the evening I found out, that "his" meaning absolutely fitted my main experience of the day!
This evening I'm having a date with someone I havn't met for a while. Trying to get used to the cards, I pulled another one this morning to figure out which fallen angel represents my main energy or experience of the day. It was SALEOS and his keyword is "refreshment", symbolic of a new love or the revitalisation of an old one! I was impressed!
A word about the astrological attributions: the elements derive from the associated zodiac sign, ascribed to the spirits by Crowley (and Mathers?). (This is not mentioned in the book but if you compare the attributions in the "Goetia" or "Lesser Key of Solomon" with the elemental attributions in the "Fallen Angel Oracle" they fit perfectly.)
The planets are derived from the status of the spirit/demon - for example: dukes are venus (copper) and kings are sun (gold).
You could use this information for reading with elemental dignities or working "magick" to support the energy. (For example: light a green candle for an angel associated with venus etc.)
After all I have to say that the "Fallen Angel Oracle" is better than I expected it to be and an interesting alternative to the more ususal oracles and cards.
And by the way: don't be afraid of the so called "demons". Most of them where pagan gods (for example: "Astaroth" being "Astarte") made into "devils" or fallen angels. This oracle is NOT a satanic or diabolic tool trying to scare you! But it could be a new and helpful set of cards for your collection.
brightcrazystar
29-03-2011, 00:04
The Zodiacal attributions from Crowley's Goetic Magick formulated by Magragor Mathers are actually Dr. Rudd's. Most of the Golden Dawn approach is from Dr. Rudd, and he was as close to the Lemegeton as most of the Chief Adepts every studied. His Enochian work is also the basis of their approach to much of Dee's work.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0954763920/ref=nosim/aeclectic/
Great Book for the enthusiast.
Tzadkiel
29-03-2011, 00:18
Thank you for the information, brightcrazystar!
I've heard of Rudd's Goetia but I didn't know that the zodiacal attributions belong to him. I thought it was Crowley or Mathers trying to compare the goetic "demons" with the 72 angels (or "names of god") of the Shemhamphorash.
brightcrazystar
29-03-2011, 02:54
You're welcome!
Dr. Rudd is also the source for the idea of those pairings, btw. At least for the Golden Dawn, though there is some evidence of previous attempts, perhaps inspired by Peter D'Abano's work The Hepatmeron. And maybe even in some interpretations of the Picatrix.
Have you ever read the Testament of Solomon? That is a different account of the solomonic tradition, but worth a look for the curious.
HighPriestess
30-03-2011, 12:38
I just did the "Deck Interview Spread" (found here (http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=155419&highlight=Deck+Interview)) for this deck. There were a few cards that could be taken quite literally, but overall I found that their meanings meshed well together. I don't think this is a deck that will be afraid to tell it like it is!
Ashtaroot
05-04-2011, 17:25
This may be going off topic, but I would really appreciate it if you would post your impressions of the ideas in the book if you get the chance, as I don't have any background knowledge of the topic and I'd love to hear what someone who knows more about it has to say about it :) I did a search of the forum and found very little discussion about the djinn, and I would like to hear more.
I just finished it.
The book is really good, it covers everything I know and more. Most of the topics and stories are very familiar to me, used to hear it all the time growing up as part of the norm. I actually experienced an exorcism done by a sheik using Quranic verses....and it was a temporarily thing just like what the book described. :rolleyes:
I really liked the book cause it introduce this whole concept to the western readers.
And yes it definitely relate to this oracle.
And one have to be careful with it, I know it is only cards. But names and intentions are powerful.
Ashtaroot
05-04-2011, 17:30
I just did the "Deck Interview Spread" (found here (http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=155419&highlight=Deck+Interview)) for this deck. There were a few cards that could be taken quite literally, but overall I found that their meanings meshed well together. I don't think this is a deck that will be afraid to tell it like it is!
Yes I have been working with it and it is very straight forward and blunt.
Tansey Ella
06-04-2011, 04:10
I got the deck a few days ago and just tried 6 card throw .
http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=155809
I found the deck just ready to jump in and help me. wow
Tansey Ella
07-04-2011, 06:54
I posted my first reading with this deck. It was more or less an interview, but I forgot what positions everything was in except the number 1 card. If anyone has any thoughts would be glad to listen.
Belinda2
21-04-2011, 17:36
I have bought the deck and it is being mailed to me, I am looking forward to receiving it. While it might be a bit dark which is not always bad, I am getting tried of all the sweet loving style of decks, it is nice to be able to get something different. I think in many ways ( from what I have seen of the cards) they seem to remind me of Graven Images Oracle. But only time will tell.
MysticalMoose
25-04-2011, 01:34
I happened upon this deck by chance & hadn't seen it before but fell in love with the artwork on the box... as I just love cemetary statues and the like. First impressions are good and this has been a really fascinating thread to read. Thanks so much for all the interesting information posted :) I'm looking forward to getting to know this deck, it has taken up residence in a Baba-Prague "Bone Chapel" bag and is sitting on my desk at the moment.
I do love the misty quality of the art.. mysterious and intriguing.. makes me want to delve further into the surroundings and explore.... :)
Belinda2
28-04-2011, 05:10
I just got my deck and we are just starting to get to know each other, when I did the 3 card draw, I didn't get much out of it but later when I took more time and did the five cards spead it seemed to make more sense to me.
This was the reading that I got: the overall nature 2 Agares strength and turnoil ( I was a manager of a store that closed down, and the future is unclear) , the recent past: 44 focalor Turmoil ( one again), The out come: 70 seere, change, travel ( postive change).
Spiritual influences behind the situation: 43 halphas respite ( I right now don't have to worry about money, but I will need to get really for future challenges).
Outcome: How you feel about what can happen? 45 Vine Danger
( I took this to mean that I feel what will happen so I feel that there is a danger (in my mind) that something bad might happen).
Overall while the situation is not ideal it seems that based on the reading it will have a positive result.
I love the imagery on the cards I find thay have a feeling of haunted beauty.
Belinda
taylorkiteling
06-06-2011, 01:08
I just got my Fallen Angel deck and I love it. I am still getting to know it, and it's still getting to know me, but I have a very good feeling about it. It was something of an impulse buy, and those are hit or miss, of course, but this one just...drew me to it. I have never been one for angel decks, but this one seemed very different. The imagery of old gravestones and worn statues is beautiful, and it holds precious memories for me - a very dear friend and I did a photoshoot in an old graveyard once.
This is my first oracle deck, so I'm struggling a bit to learn it, but it's an enjoyable struggle! :D
Taylor
Belinda2
06-06-2011, 05:34
I just got my Fallen Angel deck and I love it. I am still getting to know it, and it's still getting to know me, but I have a very good feeling about it. It was something of an impulse buy, and those are hit or miss, of course, but this one just...drew me to it. I have never been one for angel decks, but this one seemed very different. The imagery of old gravestones and worn statues is beautiful, and it holds precious memories for me - a very dear friend and I did a photoshoot in an old graveyard once.
This is my first oracle deck, so I'm struggling a bit to learn it, but it's an enjoyable struggle! :D
Taylor
Yes I am also not into those 'nice" angel decks, these cards go much deeper than that, and are a bit dark which I like. If you like grave type images you might also like graven Images oracle but I don't feel that it is as dark but I connect with the fallen angels more.
Glass Owl
07-06-2011, 11:27
My husband surprised me with this deck and I find the imagery hauntingly beautiful. It is very different from anything else I have and I love the artwork in cemeteries. I don't agree with the some of the keywords on the cards but I think I can work through that by coming up with my own.
I feel like this deck deserves a nice bag and maybe a spread cloth to go with it. But I suppose that may be due to the fact that I'm being very selective and only buying a couple of decks a year now (with the exception of trades) so I'm giving them the all-star treatment. My husband may have just bought this since it was so reasonably priced (verus the Tao Oracle that I also had on my wishlist and really wanted) but I think that the Fallen Angel Oracle packs a real punch for the money.
The key will be trying to make a bag that will still slide into the box (minus that cardboard insert.)
Belinda2
07-06-2011, 17:14
My husband surprised me with this deck and I find the imagery hauntingly beautiful. It is very different from anything else I have and I love the artwork in cemeteries. I don't agree with the some of the keywords on the cards but I think I can work through that by coming up with my own.
I feel like this deck deserves a nice bag and maybe a spread cloth to go with it. But I suppose that may be due to the fact that I'm being very selective and only buying a couple of decks a year now (with the exception of trades) so I'm giving them the all-star treatment. My husband may have just bought this since it was so reasonably priced (verus the Tao Oracle that I also had on my wishlist and really wanted) but I think that the Fallen Angel Oracle packs a real punch for the money.
The key will be trying to make a bag that will still slide into the box (minus that cardboard insert.)
oh yes I just have mine still in its nice box. I just got the Tao oracle which I use to play on line, and it seemed to read very well. But I just got it so I still have to learn more about it. Love the Fallen Angel oracle.
TreeLeafe
10-06-2011, 12:53
I'm really on the fence with these cards.
I love how they've got a lot of cards to them, and that there's a lot of depth with information put into this deck. The images as well are just lovely.
Where I start to waver though is the actual entities are demonic. And its not that the word demonic has been used but the fact that they are "scary" or "dark".
:( I'd love to have this deck but I'm at that point in my journey away from Christianity where most ties have been broken but there's still that discomfort working with something that features and is based on such entities.
Anyone want to offer some words of wisdom to maybe push me one way or the other?
Glass Owl
10-06-2011, 14:15
I'm really on the fence with these cards.
I love how they've got a lot of cards to them, and that there's a lot of depth with information put into this deck. The images as well are just lovely.
Where I start to waver though is the actual entities are demonic. And its not that the word demonic has been used but the fact that they are "scary" or "dark".
:( I'd love to have this deck but I'm at that point in my journey away from Christianity where most ties have been broken but there's still that discomfort working with something that features and is based on such entities.
Anyone want to offer some words of wisdom to maybe push me one way or the other?Here is a quote from the beginning of the booklet that eased my mind.
"[...]who better to point the way through life than those who know both sides of the story - angels who have fallen from grace.
These angels were banished from Heaven for various reasons: some because when Adam was created they refused to bow before him and accept him as a superior being, others for almost the opposite reason- because they fell in love with beautiful daughters of men and took them as their wives. [Sounds a lot like the movie, City of Angels]. There are also the angels who fell to Earth seemingly by accident during the great war between Lucifer and the other archangels."
By those definitions, most of these fallen angels are rule breakers, lone wolves, or victims of war, not necessarily evil or follow Lucifer.
It is also important to note that the booklet states: "[The fallen angels] have an ambivalent morality closer to that of pagan gods or the Celtic faery folk than that usually attributed to angels and demons."
A lot of the fallen angel attributes and information supplied in the book have to do with conflict, politics, and battles (ie. enemies, allies, diplomacy, secrets, truth, success, envy, etc.)
For instance, one of the Fallen Angels is Buer (7). "Buer can take the form of a five-pointed star or a fiery wheel with a radiant face in the center. More commonly, he appears as a handsome angel with a bright halo. Buer is a natural philosopher whose burning logic and insight cut through all distracting surface appearances to the secret essence of things, the Platonic idea. He is the master of herbal lore and can cure all manner of disease with his potions. He also attracts like-minded allies to your cause."
I don't see him as scary, powerful maybe, but not frightening in the negative sense.
One card that I'm fond of it 47. Gamigin (Samigina) whose totem is a pony - "gentle and willing to let stranded wayfarers ride on her back to shelter. One of Gamigin's main duties used to be to rescue the souls of those who drown at sea and guide them to the place of rest [...] she acts as a guide or beacon for those who have lost their way in life and fallen into despair, inspiring them with the choices to make their lives meaningful again."
But don't get me wrong, the deck isn't all sunshine, that's for sure. There's plenty of darkness. For instance, Astaroth (28) "believes that he was unfairly cast out of Heaven and bears a grievance because of this. He signals misfortune and a period of retrenchment in your life" while Andras (54) is a warmonger and enjoys "stirring up strife and conflict wherever he goes. He is the patron of murderers and those who relish bloodshed for its own sake [...]"
I like how the deck plays out like an epic war movie and has a complex cast of characters.
TreeLeafe
10-06-2011, 15:53
Clicking the buy button now!! :D
Thanks Glass Owl for some awesome enabling!!
I look forward to seeing what this deck has to offer me.
Glass Owl
11-06-2011, 04:43
Clicking the buy button now!! :D
Thanks Glass Owl for some awesome enabling!!
I look forward to seeing what this deck has to offer me.Since you are on the fence, I'm glad that you went ahead and decided to purchase it. Amazon has it at such a steal right now and hey, if you don't like it you can always put it up in the trading forum.
TreeLeafe
13-06-2011, 02:04
I've had the deck for about 24 hours now. :)
I really do like it! The artwork is really eye catching and draws me in. I've only done a deck interview reading but I liked the results and how straightforward they were. I'm still in the bonding stage, but I enjoy the feel of the deck. I've had it nearby and in my purse since it got here.
Its a slim chance you'll see my deck on the trading forum anytime soon! Thanks again. I'm really glad I have this deck.
Laura Borealis
13-06-2011, 02:07
It makes me think of the Weeping Angels. Don't close your eyes. DON'T EVEN BLINK!
tarotcognito
19-06-2011, 05:28
Just bought this deck today. Gorgeous art. I love the fact that there are NO BORDERS <happy dance> I haven't read the book yet, but I'm looking forward to it. Like many people who've already commented in this thread, I'm not into "fluffy bunny" angels, so this is a nice change from the usual fare.
I've never really gotten into oracle reading, but this deck just might prompt me to think about it. :)
KMilliron
19-06-2011, 05:39
I don't think I'm into fluffy bunny anything when it comes to divination. Sure I have Hello Kitty tarot cards, but I also have hello kitty bandaids and watches :D
This was my first oracle deck and I love it. I'm into the art, the concept, everything. I read well with it too.
inanna_tarot
07-12-2011, 17:23
Only became aware of this deck a few hours ago, but I already have ordered them and feel a huge 'knowing' between me and the energies these cards represent.
:D
oak_woman
07-12-2011, 23:23
Yep, I think you'll love it, inanna :)
inanna_tarot
24-12-2011, 21:13
Is there any books that folk would recommend to understand the Goetia and these fallen angels a bit more? I feel like I'm barely skimming the surface about them.
unknowngal
04-03-2012, 09:11
Hello everyone, first time posting on a thread, besides the intro thread. *waves* :)
I've had this deck since late last year, and I've used it a few times, including today, but I guess it's a little challenging to not be afraid of it, because of the whole fallen angel aspect. Coming from a more or less conservative Catholic background, I guess it's to be expected.
Also, I must admit, the deck isn't "fluffy", unlike, let's say, Doreen Virtue decks (which I guess could be "fluffy" but they're nice too!). Some of the cards sort of unnerve me, as if they herald doom or something. ^_^;; Though I know that if I ended up giving the deck away, I'd probably regret it. Bleh. :P
So I guess I wonder, for those from more conservative religious backgrounds, how did you deal with using these cards? And for those who aren't from more conservative backgrounds, do you feel okay with these cards too? I guess I just want to shake the fear.
Red_Ocean
04-03-2012, 18:41
What I want to know is, how good is the card stock? Does it hold up well?
Is there any books that folk would recommend to understand the Goetia and these fallen angels a bit more? I feel like I'm barely skimming the surface about them.
If you are looking for something that goes beyond a merely historical account or re-working the same old ceremonial magic approach I would recommend Daemonolatry Goetia By S. Connolly. Demonolatry is a pantheistic path where people work with demons, including the goetic demons, as helpful forces that have wisdom to offer rather than trying to constrain them and torment them and treat them as evil forces.
Not all demonalaters work with the goetic pantheon. There is another book called The Complete Book of Demonolatry that goes more into demonolatry in general.
The Daemonolatry Geoetia book is not very long, but it does go into each demon and talks about in what way each can be helpful. Connolly's take on each one is a little different from the traditional sources but closer to them than Nigel Suckling's. She (Connolly) puts some emphasis on finding your own relationship with each and points out that they can appear in very diffent ways to different people. (It seems so strange to me that Marchosias is a female demon in Suckling's oracle but I accept that they do appear differently to different people.)
There is also some free material at Connolly's web site but I don't think there is any particulary about the goetic demons. Be aware that Connolly's group uses the name "Satan" for the deity that represents the "all" in their pantheistic system. If you are from a traditional spiritual path and this would bother you I really don't recommend any of this material. On the other hand some might find this material insubstantial as it puts more of a premium on personal experience than on re-working historical accounts of what the demons are about.