IMHO an ace is not a one etc

In reply to a question received I wrote:

For the Majors the "order" is fairly understood, though without universal agreement. Le Bateleur is obviously first, Justice eighth, La Force eleventh, and Le Fol after Le Monde, for though without a number it is by no means zero (even Waite says The Fool is not to be calculated as zero but merely "marked with a zero" and that's an important distinction).

As regards the Minors, if we consider the Tarot Court Cards in terms of astrological associations, the order would logically be Cardinal, Fixed, and Mutable. Thus positioning The Queen first as Cardinal, then The King as Fixed, followed by The Knight as Mutable. But it goes a bit against the grain to elevate Queens over Kings, so such an ordering is pushing the limits of comprehension. The Page is obviously the lesser member, but with perhaps the most interesting astrological possibilities, kind of like a side order of fries with a cheeseburger.

Continuing to the numbered Minors, care needs to be taken as to how an Ace is defined. Bearing in mind the ascendency of the Ace over face cards in games of chance, and the esoteric implications of the number One being much more significant than mere singularity, where ought the Aces to be placed? Certainly not after (below) the Valets? Consider: we recognise the supremacy of an Ace over numbered cards two through ten; a 2 is not two Aces, etc. So then, if the Court Cards are higher than the numbered cards, and an Ace is higher than even a Queen or King, we can begin to imagine how the order of the Tarot Minors would be along more esoteric lines.

What might we have then? Ace, King, Queen, Knight, Page, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10. (Note that 10 reduces to 1 numerologically, so having the Aces considered as ones is redundant, and degrades the Aces in the process).

It seems the printing houses have an overly significant role in establishing the mainstream perception of the order by how they usually put them in the box, being: Ace, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, Page, Knight, Queen, King. I mean, it seems logical, but it doesn't work that way if viewed as the descending order. And, I don't see AGMuller or Lo Scarabeo as an authority here, anymore than USGames or Llewellyn.

Ace, King, Queen, Knight, Page, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 (with the Ace being one in a very limited context, but rather more ONE in an esoteric sense; an ACE and not an ace).

Thanks,
KariRoad
________________
And, thank you

I'm influenced by my time spent playing poker and other card games to wonder if the Ace shouldn't have the same kind of interpretation as in many games: either the lowest or the highest card of the suit, depending on the context. In my mind, taking the Ace as the lowest goes well with its meanings of beginnings or potential in its element. But, I could also see interpreting the Ace as a fulfillment of all the potential, in certain spreads or positions.

I would treat it similarly to the Fool, which is sometimes placed at the beginning of the Major Arcana, sometimes at the end--or sometimes wherever it seems to want to go. This feeling is based on the Fool's relation to the Joker, which is often used as a wild card.

I'm not versed in numerology or astrology, so those things haven't made it into my interpretations. I would note that in the influential Rider-Waite-Smith system, Strength and Justice have switched places, so I assume their numerology would be different.

Suzanne A said:

I would note that in the influential Rider-Waite-Smith system, Strength and Justice have switched places, so I assume their numerology would be different.

Click to expand...

Hello Suzanne A Numerology-wise, whatever is 8 is 8, and whatever is 11 is 11, but Justice was 8 to begin with, and 11 Strength works fine by the original Tarot numbering, in my humble opinion. As for the Minors, let's examine some facts.

Cards in the box usually go: (start) Ace, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, Page, Knight, Queen, King (finish)

But if we reverse that 'order' does it work the other way: ?????
(high) King, Queen, Knight, Page, 10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, Ace (low)

So > If the ENERGY is going from least to most:
Low 10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, Page, Knight, Queen, King, Ace High

And > If the ENERGY is the most intense first:
High Ace, King, Queen, Knight, Page, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 Low

Then what?

We get to decide, and, opinions aside, we can all see for ourselves what even a simple choice involves. And that's part of the beauty of Tarot.

I think its interesting and important to look at the number sequences because it can help our card interpretations, I know I have read a 10 as low before. For example in KariRoad's first example:

KariRoad said:

So > If the ENERGY is going from least to most:
Low 10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, Page, Knight, Queen, King, Ace High

Click to expand...

10 could be read as a divided up whole and so the energy is weaker than the Ace. In other words the numbers could be read as fractions where Ace is the whole thing and as the numbers increase the thing gets weaker.

I agree with Suzanne A, in that I see the Ace as the 'free spirit of the minors'.
The Ace is 'the whole' and 'the essense' and from that comes the interaction with the surroundings, the different angles and ways of working with the element. As such it can be seen as both a 'beginning' and a 'final goal reached'.

Normally I see the minors as a progression.
First the Ace - the complete, the raw element.
Then the 2 - what happens when it's discovered by something/someone and begins to interact.
3 - The result of the meeting and what grows out of the interaction.
etc.
(I could get more long-winded and write about every number and court on the way up but don't have the time right now.)
Finally, the Ace can also crown the journey as a completion, the full understanding of (and sometimes mastery of or return to) the raw element.

In a reading, I go with the numerical aspect and the step in the general development and journey through the numbers to determine what the current challenge or perk may be.

Moonbow* said:

10 could be read as a divided up whole and so the energy is weaker than the Ace.

Click to expand...

Or - as in the Navigators of the Mystic SEA - the suit starts with the 10s and works up to the Apex of the Ace. It'sn't a one, it is everything.

This is curious because in Manara there is no 'Ace' only 1.
To me the 11 as Justice is the central balancing point of the Tarot major arcana and will always remain so. Eight belongs to Leo in August as Strength in my reckoning.

(was just about to post this when Ubuntu version 10 closed down on me again) -
If anyone else is on this please do not bother to upgrade from 9 to 10 because its flakey and constantly shuts down.

Cardinal Queens

Liz Greene and Juliet Sharman-Burke worked together on a few decks where they had the Queens correspond to the Fixed Signs (as a 'promotion' perhaps?) but my thinking is more that the Cardinal Signs are initiatory, the real movers, and in strict Astrological terms, Cardinal necessarily precedes Fixed, followed then by Mutable.

Might not then Liz Greene and Juliet Sharman-Burke have rather 'promoted' Cardinal over Fixed, and still achieved establishing their Queens 'over' their Kings?

The Centre For Psychological Astrology
http://www.cpalondon.com/liz.html

Heaven and Earth Workshops
http://www.heavenandearthworkshops.com/julietsharmanburke.html

This will not be the answer but there's
lots on number info on this thread.
Marseilles and Other Early Decks.
Enjoy!



http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=101507&page=1&pp=50

Post #113