Tarot-Oracle-Lenormand-Thoth, What's the difference?

MagsStardustBlack

Hi Guys,

As i'm getting more acquainted with Tarot i am getting a little more confused as to all the different types of reading cards there is. Initially i thought it was only Tarot cards, then i discovered oracle cards. Then i thought Thoth was Tarot (is it?). Recently i have noticed people talking about Lenormand, and thought 'what are they and how are they different?'.

So i guess i'm asking - what are all the different types of reading cards? Why are they different? Is it all Tarot - just in different forms? Or are they all very individual styles of reading cards in thier own right? And if they are all different what is it about them that makes them different to read with? And finally what have i missed, are there any other types or reading cards that are less or more popular, that i haven't mentioned.

I'm sure i'm not the only confused newbie to reading cards out there, it would be great to know the answers to my questions.

Anyone willing to shed some light on this would be very much appreciated,

thanks xxMags.
 

cardlady22

My personal definition is that cartomancy is divination using cards. So they are all under this umbrella. There are different "sets" of cards with their own formats and rules. And we (collectors & readers) may also choose to ignore said rules. But it is great fun looking into all of them!

Most circles use the term cartomancy to refer to the playing card deck only.

Oracle deck infers that it's anything not included under a specific category.

ETA: Think of each "type" as a family tree with many branches off the main trunk. Now, how to classify them- that is a question better left to those who have studied their systems in depth. I am a mere dabbler.

Tarot is a 78 card deck, consisting of 4 suits + the Majors. There are some who add a 5th suit, some that add/delete cards from the Major Arcana, etc. Even the historical decks made changes to the titles & ordering of the Majors.
 

rwcarter

Under Tarot decks are the Big Three systems - Marseilles, Thoth and Rider-Waite-Smith. So, in that regard, Thoth is Tarot.

Tarot is generally defined as 78 cards divided into 22 Major Arcana and 4 Minor Arcana suits of 14 cards each, including 10 pips and 4 Court Cards. As cardlady22 said, a tarot deck may have additional suits and additional cards added to it. Usually when folks start subtracting cards, like removing the Courts, it's no longer considered a Tarot deck unless you're dealing with a Majors-only deck.

Oracles have the same function as tarot, but not necessarily the same format. Oracles may have any number of cards (and may even not be cards) that may or may not be structured along lines like the Arcanas and suits of the Tarot.

Lenormand cards are a specific subset of Oracles. I believe they're usually 36 cards, but don't quote me on that cause I know almost nothing else about Lenormands. :D

Rodney
 

Cat*

(Sorry for any repetitions, it took me some time to type this out.)

For me, oracles (or divination) is the biggest umbrella term.

Tarot cards, oracle decks, playing cards, runes, I Ching, a bag of sticks, stones, and bones -- those can all be oracles.

Reading cards, clouds, sticks/stones/bones, animal entrails, smoke shapes, doing bibliomancy -- these are all forms of divination.

If we narrow this down to stuff on cards we get tarot and other oracle decks.

Tarot decks usually have 78 cards that are grouped into 22 majors, 40 minors, and 16 court cards (the latter two in four different suits). There are also majors-only decks that have 22 cards. Tarot cards can be read according to a variety of systems of meanings, for example Rider-Waite-Smith (RWS), Thoth, Tarot de Marseille (TdM), a gazillion of other decks based more or less on these "big three," and a couple of others (both old and new). Tarot can also be read "intuitively," which usually means without set meanings, or with a system of meanings that has been developed by the reader herself/himself.

Oracle decks can be Lenormand decks, playing card decks used as oracles, or invent their own system. Lenormand decks have 36 cards that each feature one central symbol. The are usually read with a set of predetermined meanings for single cards and for card combinations. (There may be other important oracle deck systems but since my knowledge of oracle decks is rather limited someone else will have to chime in here with more information.)

Playing card decks usually have 52 cards (Ace to 10, Jack, Queen, King in four suits) although I suppose there are also people who read with smaller decks. As Lenormand cards, playing cards are usually read with a set of predetermined meanings. (In fact, many Lenormand decks feature an inset of the related planing card.)

Other non-tarot card oracles (e.g. Froud's Fairies, Druid Plant Oracle, Celtic Shaman's Pack) each have their own distinct system. Many have different suits or otherwise make subgroups of the cards. These decks can be read in a variety of ways.

Of course you can discuss the exact boundaries of each of these categories until the cows come home. So this is more to give you a rough overview, not an extensive analysis.

To try and type out the tree-structure of categories and subcategories that cardlady22 mentioned):

Divination

- "non-material" divination (e.g. clouds, flight of birds, smoke patterns...) as subcategory of divination
- "material" oracles (e.g. runes, cards, sticks/stones/bones...) ditto

--- non-card oracles (e.g. rune stones, sticks/stones/bones...) as subcategory of "material oracles"
--- card oracles (e.g. tarot, Lenormand, playing cards...) ditto

-----tarot (e.g. RWS, Thoth, Tarot de Marseille, others) as subcategory of card oracles
-----non-tarot (e.g. Lenormand, playing cards, others) ditto​

Hope that makes sense! :)
 

MagsStardustBlack

cardlady22 said:
My personal definition is that cartomancy is divination using cards. So they are all under this umbrella. There are different "sets" of cards with their own formats and rules. And we (collectors & readers) may also choose to ignore said rules. But it is great fun looking into all of them!

Most circles use the term cartomancy to refer to the playing card deck only.

Oracle deck infers that it's anything not included under a specific category.

ETA: Think of each "type" as a family tree with many branches off the main trunk. Now, how to classify them- that is a question better left to those who have studied their systems in depth. I am a mere dabbler.

Tarot is a 78 card deck, consisting of 4 suits + the Majors. There are some who add a 5th suit, some that add/delete cards from the Major Arcana, etc. Even the historical decks made changes to the titles & ordering of the Majors.
Click to expand...

Thanks Cardlady22, so I recognise Tarot, so everything else is Oracle then, so Lenormand is Oracle and what is Thoth (tarot)??

Its just i seen Lenormand described as fortune telling cards on the box, i was like 'i' - 'whats that all about?', it consused me as i thought you could use any cards for fortune telling but i have not really seen any other cards state in on a box.
 

MagsStardustBlack

rwcarter said:
Under Tarot decks are the Big Three systems - Marseilles, Thoth and Rider-Waite-Smith. So, in that regard, Thoth is Tarot.

Tarot is generally defined as 78 cards divided into 22 Major Arcana and 4 Minor Arcana suits of 14 cards each, including 10 pips and 4 Court Cards. As cardlady22 said, a tarot deck may have additional suits and additional cards added to it. Usually when folks start subtracting cards, like removing the Courts, it's no longer considered a Tarot deck unless you're dealing with a Majors-only deck.

Oracles have the same function as tarot, but not necessarily the same format. Oracles may have any number of cards (and may even not be cards) that may or may not be structured along lines like the Arcanas and suits of the Tarot.

Lenormand cards are a specific subset of Oracles. I believe they're usually 36 cards, but don't quote me on that cause I know almost nothing else about Lenormands. :D

Rodney
Click to expand...

Thanks Rodney - making more sense now. So 3 subcategories to Tarot - got it Marseilles, RWS and Thoth. Oracle - any other cards (and non cards). Lenormand - subcategory of Oracle.

Ok, sounds clearer now. Thanks, do they all do a completely different job, or just vaguely different job?
 

MagsStardustBlack

Got it!

Cat* said:
(Sorry for any repetitions, it took me some time to type this out.)

For me, oracles (or divination) is the biggest umbrella term.

Tarot cards, oracle decks, playing cards, runes, I Ching, a bag of sticks, stones, and bones -- those can all be oracles.

Reading cards, clouds, sticks/stones/bones, animal entrails, smoke shapes, doing bibliomancy -- these are all forms of divination.

If we narrow this down to stuff on cards we get tarot and other oracle decks.

Tarot decks usually have 78 cards that are grouped into 22 majors, 40 minors, and 16 court cards (the latter two in four different suits). There are also majors-only decks that have 22 cards. Tarot cards can be read according to a variety of systems of meanings, for example Rider-Waite-Smith (RWS), Thoth, Tarot de Marseille (TdM), a gazillion of other decks based more or less on these "big three," and a couple of others (both old and new). Tarot can also be read "intuitively," which usually means without set meanings, or with a system of meanings that has been developed by the reader herself/himself.

Oracle decks can be Lenormand decks, playing card decks used as oracles, or invent their own system. Lenormand decks have 36 cards that each feature one central symbol. The are usually read with a set of predetermined meanings for single cards and for card combinations. (There may be other important oracle deck systems but since my knowledge of oracle decks is rather limited someone else will have to chime in here with more information.)

Playing card decks usually have 52 cards (Ace to 10, Jack, Queen, King in four suits) although I suppose there are also people who read with smaller decks. As Lenormand cards, playing cards are usually read with a set of predetermined meanings. (In fact, many Lenormand decks feature an inset of the related planing card.)

Other non-tarot card oracles (e.g. Froud's Fairies, Druid Plant Oracle, Celtic Shaman's Pack) each have their own distinct system. Many have different suits or otherwise make subgroups of the cards. These decks can be read in a variety of ways.

Of course you can discuss the exact boundaries of each of these categories until the cows come home. So this is more to give you a rough overview, not an extensive analysis.

To try and type out the tree-structure of categories and subcategories that cardlady22 mentioned):

Divination

- "non-material" divination (e.g. clouds, flight of birds, smoke patterns...) as subcategory of divination
- "material" oracles (e.g. runes, cards, sticks/stones/bones...) ditto

--- non-card oracles (e.g. rune stones, sticks/stones/bones...) as subcategory of "material oracles"
--- card oracles (e.g. tarot, Lenormand, playing cards...) ditto

-----tarot (e.g. RWS, Thoth, Tarot de Marseille, others) as subcategory of card oracles
-----non-tarot (e.g. Lenormand, playing cards, others) ditto​

Hope that makes sense! :)
Click to expand...


Hi Cat, thanks for such a detailed post. That makes alot of sense now, i read it over twice. So it is all Oracle - within that there are subcategory - non-material and material, and within the material category there are cards, which are further split into more subcategories of Tarot and Oracle. Tarot being very structured following a format of either TdM RWS Thoth. With the Oracle cards being more freely based following maybe Lenormand or something else.

I think i'v got it now, that made alot of sense, what you wrote, i have always been very confused, increasing steadily as time has gone on until the point where i just didn't have a clue. But that sums it up very nice for me and other newbies to reading cards.

So my Tarot cards are a form of Oracle, and so are obviously my Oracle cards. Now i just need to get to grips with the different systems of Tarot - RWS, TdM and Thoth out of interest. And i get the gist of Frouds Faerie Oracle system, i need to get some Lenormand cards to compair, and some TdM. As i think my tarot cards are loosly based on RWS. Might get a RWS deck just to see.

Thanks Cat, much appreciated

xxMags.
 

NorthernTigress

I don't remember who first said it here, but there was one analogy that I liked.

"All horses are animals, but not all animals are horses."

"All Tarot are Oracles, but not all Oracles are Tarot."

Any system that is used for divination can be called an oracle. You can have oracle cards, oracle dice, even home-made oracles.

The Tarot is a specific type of oracle, using cards. There is a specific structure for tarot decks: a "Majors only" Tarot has 22 cards, numbered 1-21 plus the Fool card that is either marked zero, or not numbered at all. A "Full Tarot" contains both the 22 Majors and a set of Minors: 4 suits of Ace through 10, plus the Courts for each suit, with the 4 "facecards" usually (but not always) labeled Page, Knight, Queen and King.

As mentioned before, there are 3 different Tarot traditions: Thoth, Marseilles and Rider-Waite (sometimes called Rider/Waite/Smith). They all have generally the same structure, but with other differences. For example, Marseilles decks have "pip minors", cards that only show the suit symbols; Rider-Waite shows illustrated scenes in their minor arcana. The Thoth uses different names for many of the Majors than the RW does, and the Thoth is the only tradition that uses titles on the Minors as well.

The Lenormand is a specific type of Oracle, with 36 cards (Petit Lenormand) or 54 cards (Le Grand Jeu). They were originally very similar to playing cards, but have since been transformed to a very specific set of symbols: Rider, Clover, Ship, House, Tree, Clouds, Snake, Coffin,Flowers, Scythe, Rods, Birds (owls), Child, Fox, Bear, Stars, Storks, Dog, Tower, Garden, Mountain, Cross roads, Mice, Heart, Ring, Book, Letter, Man (gentleman),
Woman (lady), Lily, Sun, Moon, Key, Fish, Anchor, Cross. The Lenormand deck is often used with all 36 cards at once, with a lot of attention paid to the combination of cards and their relative locations.
 
IMHO an ace is not a one etc Multiple tarot card holder*