View Full Version : Sacrilege
I have quite a few different Thoths - they vary so in colour and contrast, and I'm always looking for the perfect one.
But having just practice-trimmed a small dull one, I was comparing the others to decide which of the large ones to trim when I noticed something disturbing.
The AG Muller blue box 1996 large edition has been squashed, the proportions altered. It's very obvious if you look at the Fool's face, which is longer in the large AG Muller 1986 edition. At first I wondered which was the version closest to the original paintings, so, looking for circles I compared the Star cards, in which one would expect Lady Harris to have made the planet a decent sphere. It seems clear from this comparison that the 1986 edition is the nearest to spherical and therefore the original. I guess this is logical too, as computer technology might not have allowed this sort of distortion then. Comparison of the width to length ratio of the two different editions confirms the distortion, and OK, it's not much, but I so prefer the original Fool to the new squater one.
How very dare they....!
Pen
?????
Please post scans. Thank the lord I am so OLD and have the 1986. I must now get out the new Konigsfurt one (allegedly the truest EVER !) and see if....
Hope this works... the 1986 edition cards are on the left.
That's shocking. I have to do some cooking :( but when I'm done I'll check my new Konigsfurt.
Must alert Lillie !
The contrast and the saturation of the colours has been bumped up in the newest edition and the print quality is nowhere near as good as in the earlier edition (notice the vertical lines). I'd have thought my scanner was defective if I hadn't scanned them all in at the same time.
Pen
That's shocking. I have to do some cooking :( but when I'm done I'll check my new Konigsfurt.
Must alert Lillie !
I have a vague feeling that this has been mentioned before.
Anyway. It's shocking.
What's the problem with this deck?
What is so hard about making a good printing of it?
Dwtw
Just to confirm, you are comparing the large size decks from 1986 and 1996? 140 x 95 mm?
I think I'm seeing the same thing on the Fortune card, but a little less noticeable.
The images are definitely different proportions; 1996 seems to be about 1mm shorter and 4mm wider.
The gold box cards are different proportions - supposedly true to the originals for the first time.
Litlluw
Dwtw
Just to confirm, you are comparing the large size decks from 1986 and 1996? 140 x 95 mm?
I think I'm seeing the same thing on the Fortune card, but a little less noticeable.
The images are definitely different proportions; 1996 seems to be about 1mm shorter and 4mm wider.
The gold box cards are different proportions - supposedly true to the originals for the first time.
Litlluw
Yes, the large AG Muller cards from 1986 and 1996 (large blue box A and large blue box B on the TG comparison table.
And I guess the difference is bound to be less noticable on some cards than others.
Re. the gold box cards - do you mean the white box with the gold inner slipcase?
Pen
Edited to add link to TG comparison table. (http://www.tarotgarden.com/library/decks/thothtable.php)
No - one that isn't on TG (as I recall) that came out about 2 years ago from AGM - now Konigsfurt - ONLY in the smaller sizes, and ONLY in German..
This one (http://www.amazon.de/Aleister-Crowley-Thoth-Tarot-Standard/dp/386826504X/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&qid=1290624557&sr=8-8). And to my great relief - it does indeed have a circular globe on the Star. It's also definitely on the paler side. No time to scan just now - but here are a couple I made earlier (for my own catalogue !) It comes in a classy gold lift top box.
If there is a difference, it's very slight. By your outrage, I was expecting something akin to watching a widescreen movie in 4:3 or something!
Does the large US Games in the green box from 1996 have the same features as the large '96 blue box? It's been reported that they're the same deck in different boxes, it'd be interesting to see if they match. The only Thoth I have left is my greenie. :)
If there is a difference, it's very slight. By your outrage, I was expecting something akin to watching a widescreen movie in 4:3 or something!
I have left the forum and won't see your replies.
I love the Thoth artwork and spend quite a bit of time with the deck, but having only recently aquired the later edition, the difference in the Fool's face struck me immediately. Having now verified that difference and compared the planets on the two editions of the Star, it's something I'd like to 'unknow', as I actually prefer the deeper colours and sharper contrast on the 1996. The deck is now unusable for me as I'll be forever picking up 'squashed' details on all the cards. That aside, IMO original artwork should never be altered in this way without permission of the artist.
Not sure why I'm troubling to reply to justify my 'outrage', as according to your sig. you've left the forum and won't be here to read it...;)
Pen
Does the large US Games in the green box from 1996 have the same features as the large '96 blue box? It's been reported that they're the same deck in different boxes, it'd be interesting to see if they match. The only Thoth I have left is my greenie. :)
Sorry, I can't help with that, as I don't have the US Games green box edition, only the purple US Games one with the three Magi. I heard that the earlier green box cards are greenish like the Greenie, which I do have.
I may have to get the gold box Konigsfurt now, although judging by Gregory's scans they have a distinctly beige cast...:)
Pen
I wouldn't say beige.... Blame the scanner !
I can't even REMEMBER if I have the green box edition - but only a VERY few of them had greenies in, when it very first came out. So not too many people who own it will experience that.
ETA but USG and AGM used the same printer in Belgium... this is all very odd...
I wouldn't say beige.... Blame the scanner !
I can't even REMEMBER if I have the green box edition - but only a VERY few of them had greenies in, when it very first came out. So not too many people who own it will experience that.
ETA but USG and AGM used the same printer in Belgium... this is all very odd...
Even if they used the same printer, they'd have used different files. Checking my US Games white-box Greenie, the card titles are in very small print compared to either of the AG Muller decks. I haven't the green-box US Games edition to compare the Greenie with, but I'd guess from what you say above that perhaps they had leftover boxless decks from the white-box edition and had extra green boxes printed to accommodate these. Or perhaps not...
I might do a colour/contrast/definition comparison later on the ones I have and post the results, as the Tarot Garden table doesn't go into that much detail. There's probably not a lot of point in scanning for comparison as scanners and monitors can vary.
Pen
Even if they used the same printer, they'd have used different files. Checking my US Games white-box Greenie, the card titles are in very small print compared to either of the AG Muller decks. I haven't the green-box US Games edition to compare the Greenie with, but I'd guess from what you say above that perhaps they had leftover boxless decks from the white-box edition and had extra green boxes printed to accommodate these. Or perhaps not...
Yes to that last; I think that is documented here.
But the files thing - they ALL say printed by Carta Mundi on the shrink wrap...
But the files thing - they ALL say printed by Carta Mundi on the shrink wrap...
The artwork in whatever form it was sent to the printer would be what was scanned or processed for colour separation before being printed, so any changes/improvements? in text, colour, size or ratio from the previous edition would be evident in the printed edition. Any print experts reading, please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
Different publishers have different ideas on what's an 'improvement' I guess, but I can't imagine why they'd alter the length to width ratio, unless they want all their boxes to be a standard size. I'm pretty sure that length to width ratio is never the fault/responibility of the printer, but originates in the design studio.
Pen
I would never have noticed this flaw with the artwork, but you are right - once you know, its hard to miss.
I'm going to get my oldest Thoth, a greenie, out later and then the other Thoths I have, including the two newest German ones and do a little comparison. :)
I had already noticed the colour changes but the fact that the artwork was squashed had completely passed me by.
Does the large US Games in the green box from 1996 have the same features as the large '96 blue box? It's been reported that they're the same deck in different boxes, it'd be interesting to see if they match. The only Thoth I have left is my greenie. :)
Dwtw
The two '96 decks are indeed the very same deck, (in different boxes), printed from the same masters. The very earliest green boxes had the old "greenie" deck in them, these were replaced when Cartamundi took over AGMuller and began printing the '96 deck in Belgium. Now they're all the same.
A couple other notes: the standard size 1996 deck does NOT have the distortion problem, so if you really dig the colors, you can still use the smaller size.
As for why the proportions were changed, the fact is that the 1986 printing had poor cropping of the images: check out the Prince of Wands or the Ace of Disks. Where's the rest of the lion's paw?
The 1996 printing went to a wider image to solve some cropping issues, (in order to get the whole image, and resurrect the lion's paw), but in the process I think they also went a tad shorter, thus creating the horizontal distortion, or 'squishing". It's really very noticeable once you see it on a large scale like the Star or Fortune, but changes to any of the smaller image elements are much less noticeable.
So what's a large-size Thoth lover to do? Well, I have been toying for a long time with the idea of making a hybrid deck from the '86 and '96 issues, using my favorite cards from each in one deck. Could be a possibility; the drawback is that the titles are in different fonts, and the backs have different color borders, (white or gray) so that could be annoying. But if you trimmed the two decks...
Litlluw
RLG
Thanks RLG, that's useful info.
One other thing I noticed while trimming the large 1986 AGM is that the cross on the reverse is slightly off-centre. About 1mm is taken off the blue edge of the cross on the reverse with very careful trimming (exactly on the front image edge with no allowance for error), leaving the same amount extra on the red side. Worth bearing in mind if something like this is important to you.
Pen
ETA Re. the hybrid, don't forget that the colours and definition are noticably different - also on the backs...:(
1. Greenie (large): US Games white box with OTO & glyph on front. Cards printed in Belgium, box and booklet in USA.
Palest colour and least contrast/definition of the ones I have. Colourwise, backs are rather nice though, and borderless. No length to width distortion.
2. Large AG Muller 1986: Deeper colour than the Greenie with more contrast/definition. Backs slightly off-centre. No length to width distortion. As far as I can see the standard sized edition from this date is the same.
3. Large AG Muller 1996: Deepest colour and most contrast/definition of all. The yellow on the Fool card is now golden. Distortion due to alteration of length to width ratio especially noticable with the Fool's face and the Star's planet.
4. Standard US Games pale lilac-grey box with the Two of Disks on front. Cards marked AG Muller 1996. Slightly less golden than 3, but colour/contrast very similar otherwise. No length to width distortion.
I'm assuming that the large version of this edition (green box) will be the same.
Now what I need to know is if the Prince of Wands Konigsfurt lion has his paw uncropped. Gregory.....?
Pen
Did you mention this already ?
Anyway - Prince Wands' lion has two complete paws. (And now I shall be hors de for a few days)
OH BTW - the BACKS of this one have GOLD borders rather than white - a great improvement if they MUST put borders on. Not gilded, just gold colours.
Did you mention this already ? Anyway - Prince Wands' lion has two complete paws. (And now I shall be hors de for a few days)
No... It's great news though. Because if the PoW lion has two paws, yet the Star's planet is not distorted this means we have the best edition yet. I guess I'll have to buy one to see the colour though.
OH BTW - the BACKS of this one have GOLD borders rather than white - a great improvement if they MUST put borders on. Not gilded, just gold colours.
Thanks for that, Gregory. Re. gilded though, I'm always amazed and delighted at the illusion of actual gold on the backs (I think the Greenie is best for this).
Pen