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Minderwiz
28-11-2010, 04:28
To help those who are learning Astrology, I'm posting a thread on predictive methods. This is a result of issues raised in another thread and I can see that making the step from casting and interpreting a natal (or indeed mundane) chart,there comes a time to move on to the next stage of predicting what comes next.

I'm not going to go through the methods in detail, some of them have been the subject of threads elsewhere, or have appeared within threads. Instead I'm going to do an introduction (and I'm hoping this will be added to by others in subsequent posts) and add links to the methods, where they have been dealt with in those other threads. The latter may develop over time as it requires some real attempt to examine previous threads for predictive methods. Again, I hope that others, especially Dave, will add links to their own threads, opinions, etc.

I'll also try to add some books but I'm going to do that as an associated thread as there are so many and others may have read or prefer other books or may have different views than mine, so their posts would be welcomed there.

I'll make this thread a stick and I hope that it will grow over time, with further posts from me and others about our methods and preferences but especially from those who are learning and want to ask questions, or relate their experiences with the methods.

Please feel free to ask any questions relating to predictive methods here, or post your observations. The thread is inteded to be helpful but it is not, nor can it be a teaching thread - it's hopefully a resource.

Minderwiz
28-11-2010, 05:44
The big problem facing students is the plethora of methods and books on predictions and predictive methods. This can lead either to students never venturing into the field, or a rush to learn all the methods as soon as possible. I would strongly advise that you first ensure that you can do (at least) two things:

Have a clear and focussed view of your approach to Astrology
Be able to interpret a natal chart (or for mundane work a mundane chart)

Predictive work requires a systematic and internally consistent approach to Astrology and it uses the natal (or other relevant) chart as a basis for making predictions, Prior to the last decade or so of the nineteenth century, the recognised purpose of Astrology was to predict. This shifted to a focus on the natal chart and character analysis as a result of laws both in the UK and USA which treated predictions as charlatanism and used the force of law against Astrologers, Psychics, Tarotists and others. Predictive methods made something of a comeback in the mid twentieth century as an aid to to counselling.

All approaches to forecasting use at least three 'decision' or 'action' periods - Long Term, Medium Term and Short Term and a good Astrologer should order his or her methods to allow for these periods. The following is intended as a rough guide and should not be seen as absolute.

Long Term - 2years - remainder of life native/subject
Medium Term - 6 months - 2 years
Short Term - Less than 6 months

Some Astrologers will use 1 year plus as long term, with months as medium term and less than a month as short term, so remember to treat these as suggestions, not rules.

That being said, trying to use the same method for the month ahead and 10 years ahead will leave you with so many charts that you will find yourself unable to manage.

Astrologers tend to develop their techniques over time, either by taking on new ones and discarding old ones when they come across better methods, or by refining their present tools, so don't see the set of tools you start with as being there forever but remember to keep a balance between the three periods.

At the moment I tend to use Primary Directions for Long term predictions, Solar Returns and Profections for Medium Term and Transits and possibly Lunar Returns for the Short Term. I class myself as still being at the learning stage, so these may change in the future.

In the next post I'll try to give some methods for each Time period. They are for guidance and don't be surprised if you find some differences with other Astrologers.

Minderwiz
28-11-2010, 07:29
There are quite a few methods of long term prediction. Most are traditional as Modern Astrologers tend to be very cautious about making predictions much above a couple of years and most keep to shorter periods. This is understandable in a situation where lives are changing and new circumstances arise, especially when the Astrologer seems themselves in a counselling role and the object is to have a two way dialogue with the client.

I'm not sure whether things were really very different in the past, to have techniques to predict a lifetime is one thing, to make use of them in a constructive way is quite another. At best one might argue that the Long term techniques can pick out key periods in life, especially points where major change is likely to occur.

Some examples of methods are:

Based on Planetary Periods - examples would be Zodiacal Releasing, Egyptian Directions, Firdaria. (Of these the only one I've used is Zodiacal Releasing from Spirit and Fortuna and only experimentally) They are based on the belief that Each planet in turn, starting from some point such as the Ascendant (Ascendant Ruler) or Lot of Fortune (Lot of Fortune ruler) rules a period of several years. These periods are not the same for each planet. The periods can be broken down into sub periods each with a sub ruler. The ruler changes according to a set order, usually the order of the planets from Saturn through to the Moon). The planetary ruler sets the tone for the period. Changes in planetary period rulers, or sub period rulers are an indicator of changes coming in a person's life.

Profections - these can be used for Long term forecasts for up to 12 years, though I prefer to use them solely in the context of the current year. They are based on the principle of moving all natal planets forward one sign each year but keeping their degree the same. Forecasts about the year can be made by comparing profected to natal chart. Originally the movment was discontinuous - each move was a jump of one whole sign. By the Seventeenth Century continuous advance was in use, so a planet moved exactly 30 degrees each year (and ALL planets moved at this constant rate), so a month could be represented as a 2.5 degree movement. Originally only five points were moved - Sun, Moon, Ascendant, MC and Lot of Fortune but Modern Astrologers who use profections may well move all the planets (including the outers).

Primary Directions - I've covered these in my Thread on Traditional Approaches and given examples. Primary Directions are based on the Primary Motion of the planets - which is their visible movement from East to West determined by the rotation of the Earth. This method uses the first example of symbolic time - one year for approximately each degree of heavenly rotation, starting with the moment of birth. Therefore your entire life is encompassed by the first 90 or so degrees of movement. Working on an approximation of 4 minutes per degree moving across the Ascendant and a lifetime of 90 years, it would take 360 minutes for the 90 degree movement to occur, or the first six hours of your life. Because this method is based on the movement of the Celestial Sphere (as seen from Earth) it requires some advanced mathematics to get it right. These days we use a computer but as those were not available to Hellenistic and Medieval Astrologers, you had to have a good maths education to do them. The development of computers has seen a re-awakening of interest in PDs and there is no reason why the outer planets cannot be used, or the method used in the context of Modern AStrology.

Secondary Directions - Invented by Placidus de Titis, the originator of the Placidus table of House cusps, these were intended as a simplified alternative to Primary Directions. They were not a replacement but designed to give approximations and cut down on the complex maths. Following the exile of Astrology from the universities in the Seventeenth and Eighteenth Centuries, Training in maths amongst Astrologers tended to peter out and Secondary Directions became the main method of choice. Secondary Directions also use symbolic time, taking one day of life as a symbol for one year of life starting from birth. So your 25th year of life is symbolised by the chart for your 25th day of life. These are easy to erect and easy to progress during the 'year' by moving the daily chart forward a two hour advance being equivalent to a month of life.

The Solar Arc method moves ALL planets forward from their natal positions by approximately one degree for each year of life (Like profections, the rate is the same for all planets). This has some similarities with Secondary Progressions, in that the Sun moves by approximately one degree per day, The method has been advocated for its simplicity but as Dave has pointed out in another thread, there's issues about the exact rate that is used, as the Sun's speed is not constant. So do we use an average, or do we use the rate at the time of birth and do we vary that rate as the Sun's actual rate varied over the first days of life? Secondary Progressions don't have that problem because they use the complete days (24 hours) from birth.

Those are the methods most used for Natal Astrology. In mundane Astrology, which deals with the 'lives' of nations and states, a much longer view is necessary and Traditionally the Saturn/Jupiter cycle was seen as providing a good indicator for analysis, as the conjunctions are not only approximately 12 years apart but follow a larger cycle of moving through the Triplicities - Fire, Earth, Air and Water.

The eclipse cycles have also been used for long term forecasting for mundane matters, the eclipse chart indication the conditions that will hold until the next eclipse. The requirement is that the eclipse is visible and the chart is calculated for the capital city of the country.

I've not gone into the detail of the methods and indeed each method may be found with significant variants. I've just attempted to provide a brief sketch and like all brief sketches lack of accuracy in inherent. So these are very rough descriptions. Questions on detail are welcomed and who knows, we might get to try one or two out at some point.

franniee
28-11-2010, 07:31
Thank you Minderwiz!!!

Minderwiz
28-11-2010, 07:55
The Medium Term is perhaps six months to two years. Methods that could be used are:

Solar Return Charts. Each year the Sun returns to the degree and minute it was at when you were born - your solar birthday. A Chart for that moment will give information about the year ahead. Solar Return charts are derived from your natal chart and are subordinate to it. They must be read in conjunction with the natal chart and must not be seen as being more important than the natal chart. Key issues surround the way in which the chart is read - they should NOT be read in the same way as a natal chart. Traditionally it was the similarity or difference from the Natal chart that mattered, especially in relation to the signs on the four angles (and therefore the planets that ruled those angles)' as well as planets on or near those angles. An issue which Dave has become associated with, is whether or not to correct the charts for the precession of the equinoxes - the slight shift of the Sun against the stellar background at the time at which it appears to cross the equator at the vernal equinox in the North. This change is quite small, about 1 degree of movement over 72 years. The older we get the more the effect of precession occurs. For me if I want to go by the Sun's actual position against the stellar background at the time I was born and the time it reaches that exact same position this year I have to recognise that it needs to move nearly a whole degree further. Hence we now have two competing methods for calculating SRs and arguments as to which is best, or even about whether they are complementary.

Profections - as stated in the previous post, I use profections, along with Solar Returns, for medium term forecasting, and advance the five traditional points by approximately 2.5 degrees for each month into the year that I want to examine. So 6 months in the future is examined by progressing my profected points by 15 degrees. Prediction is made by examining the relation to the natal chart.

Lunar Returns - similar to Solar Returns and covering a lunar month (in terms of one rotation around the zodiac). These could be used either to break down the Solar Return into 'convenient' chunks or as a method in their own right. A year really is the maximum period that these work in any easy way. I've tried them but I don't use them now.

You will also find other symbolic time period methods - a day for a lunar month, or a lunar month for a year are sometimes used. Perversely both of these are referred to as Tertiary Progressions. The month in question in both cases is the synodic month - that is the length of time from one New Moon till the next, which is longer than the lunar return to its zodiacal starting point (because the Sun is also moving).

In mundane Astrology much use is made of the Aries Ingress - a chart cast for the moment that the Sun enters Aries each year and cast for the capital city of the country. The Aries ingress was seen as the 'solar birthday' of the country because many countries could not point to an exact moment in time when they came into existence. This has been supplemented in the Twentieth Century by actual birth charts, as decolonisation and the creation of new states after the two world wars gave exact birth times to new countries.

Probably the earliest example of the use of 'natal' charts for a country is the Sibley Chart for the USA. Created by the English Astrologer, Ebenezer Sibley and timed for the signing of the Declaration of Independence (or at least an educated guess as the exact time is debatable).

We do know that many royal coronations were timed for an Astrologically auspicous time - the most famous being John Dee's election chart for the coronation of Elizabeth I. Such a chart could also have been used for Solar Returns, or Aries Ingress comparisons.

Minderwiz
28-11-2010, 20:17
The most used short term method is the use of Transit charts. These are simply charts taken for a particular moment and then their planetary positions are compared to the natal (or other chart). Strictly speaking ALL chart cast for a specific moment and showing the planetary positions at that time (real time charts) are Transits. So your natal chart is a Transit chart and could be used to compare it's planetary positions to say, those of your mother at the moment of birth. Event charts are Transit charts and so are Solar Return charts, Lunar Return charts (and all other return charts), Aries Ingress charts and eclipse charts.

So the real issue is how do you choose the moment for your transit chart? The natal chart gives us a clue - the natal chart is a transit chart and it's not constructed at random, but for a special event. The purpose of prediction is to identify special events in your life, especially changes, that lie in the future (though you can also use transit charts to examine events in your past).

How do you identify those future events when they have not happened. The answer is that you use one or more Long Term or Medium Term method to identify likely periods for future events and then use transits to try and identify the exact timing. Some Astrologers do claim amazing precision for their long/medium term methods but most tend to recognise that there will be some error in the timing suggested by the longer term methods. The methods described in the posts above give approximate times, transits are then used to find the most likely exact time in the range given.

So don't use transits at random. Nor should you try casting charts at regular intervals as you will end up overwhelmed by charts. If you cast charts for every minute of the day (perfectly possible for Astrological software) you would end up with 1,440 charts for the day and over half a million for the year or about 40 million for a life time.

Don't expect that something that seems to be significant in a transit chart will indicate a real event. You really need several indicators to draw that conclusion and those indicators should all point in the same direction. So Long Term, Medium Term and Short Term predictions should all point to the same type of event. This tends to work in both directions - a Primary Direction suggesting a particular type of event next year is only likely to be realised if there are supporting indicators from Solar Returns, Secondary Progressions or other method and even then may not occur without a suitable transit.

The old saying about swallows and Summer should be born in mind. Where there are two or three swallows though, Summer may indeed be coming.

dadsnook2000
30-11-2010, 11:52
Minderwiz has classified prediction as falling into three groupings; long term, medium term and short term. This is a reasonable format in which we can place the many varied methods of prediction. This post will look at "long term" prediction in terms of both mundane and personal prediction.

The process which will support long term prediction is that of cycles involving the outer planets. Some postulate that the outer planets have no personal meaning in our charts. They may not have personal importance in some cases but they will have personal importance in other cases. Let us first explore how they can be seen to operate.

I would call everyone's attention to several books that offer compelling examples of the workings of the outer planets:

** COSMOS and PSYCHE by Richard Tarnas was published a year or two ago and addresses the cycles of pairs of outer planets that are identified by their conjunction points/dates. This 560+ page book is filled with endless research and examples covering history from 2500 years ago up until today.
The cycles of Pluto-Neptune, Pluto-Uranus, Pluto-Saturn, Pluto-Jupiter, Neptune-Uranus, Neptune-Saturn, Neptune-Jupiter, Uranus-Saturn, Uranus-Jupiter, Saturn-Jupiter are covered in terms of their impact on wars, politics, economic development, science, the arts, and natural events. I would estimate that there are literally thousands of examples given. This is a book of great value --- but it is difficult to read and stay with it until the end. It took me a year to finish it for the first reading.

** On a more personal and readable level, THE ASTROLOGY OF MIDLIFE AND AGING by Erin Sullivan will illustrate how planetary cycles can relate to each of us in a very personal way. This 220+ page paperback is a terrific resource for astrologers and students who want to better understand life trends for those who are approaching their 40's and 50's, or who are older. The cycles are related to peoples charts --- meaning that the birth position of the planet is the "starting point" and the progress of the planet through the chart is the cycle. In addition to these one-planet cycles, Erin Sullivan also looks at how two-planet cycles fit into personal charts.

** Betty Lundsted's PLANETARY CYCLES also takes the above approach.

** Liz Greene's THE OUTER PLANETS AND THEIR CYCLES is based on several lectures she gave over a period of time. She uses the charts of famous personalities to discus a variety of cycles. Her book, and others of this nature, are a bit fragmented as she jumps from one cycle to the next within the context of the chart she is talking about. However, the material is good if you can read and assimilate the jumbled nature of the material.

If you look for them there are many books of planetary cycles.

Permit me to first note "Two-Planet" cycles. These cycles use the conjunction point to define the start of the cycle. This cyclic approach is most easily seen in terms of how it shows up in our history, our mundane and political events. The opposition and quardtrature points are important. These two-planet cycles are great for mundane trends and are only of interest in a personal chart if that cycle is tied in to the angles or Sun or the planets (natal version of the cyclic planets) themselves.

It is often interesting to examine your own chart for where these two-planet cycles started out (their last conjunction point) and see if 1) that starting point has relevance to your chart, or 2) to see where your version of those planets are in your chart to determine what their "phase relationship" means and how you play a role in that larger scheme.

One-planet cycles always relate to the transiting position (now or in the future or in the past) of a planet relative to its natal positioning. The Saturn return is one example that many talk about, but the quadrature points, as well as the entrance into each house of your chart, define very important trends in one's life. You must first understand 1) the eight-fold cyclic definition that Rudhyar defined in his LUNATION CYCLE or which Marc Robertson defined in his ENGINE OF DESTINY. Once those cyclic books are assimilated and you have a firm understanding of "houses", you can look ahead in any chart and easily predict the basic trends of ones life. Having a context or understanding of the person's age and lifestyle, one can use the natal chart to make more specific predictions -- not detailed but still quite definitive in a general sense.

So, to summarize, long term prediction is based on cycles. These comments have dwelled upon two-planet cycles as they relate to world events, and may in some cases link into some personal natal charts, and upon one-planet cycles as the transiting planet relates to a natal planet position. I have not looked a other cycles such as the metonic-or-solar cycle, various lunar cycles, or any of the vedic or joytish cycles. I'll leave it to others to comment on those.

There is a lot to cover in terms of "prediction" and I doubt that we will be able to cover it all in any depth on a website, but we can at least identify and recognize the many approaches to prediction. Understanding "cycles" is part of the overall process. Dave

dadsnook2000
03-12-2010, 07:23
There are a number of progression and direction processes used for prediction.
** PROGRESSION relates to moving each chart component at its own natural movement rate for a given period of time.
** DIRECTION relates to moving each chart component at the rate of advance of a single body, typically the Sun.

PROGRESSED charts are supposed to portray the natural development and experiences of the subject person. What is retrograde will likely remain being in retrograde motion for the bulk of ones life when using a "day-for-a-year" form of progression. Non-retrograde planets will advance at different rates:

**** The Moon will progress through a sign in 2.5 years. One often expects to experience new states of feelings and relationships with others at these sign changes. Perhaps a change in one's residential location may occur when the Moon changes signs, although house and angle positions are likely better indicators of this.

**** The Sun progresses at a rate of some 30 years per sign, although its actual position will determine how much earlier than 30 years of age in which it will enter a new sign. One will often note a rather sharp change in how life is approached and experienced at sign changes.

Since each chart component advances at its own rate, over time the natal aspects that may have existed between some planets will either increase in closeness and in your experience of them, or they will decrease in terms of playing a role in your chart. In other cases, especially with the Sun, Moon, Mercury, Venus and sometimes Mars, whole new aspect patterns may slowly form. As a rule, one should pay attention to every aspect, major or minor or even harmonic aspects such as 5ths or 7ths or 9ths.

DIRECTED charts are typically advanced at the Sun's rate of advancement. In these forms of charts, every chart body is advanced by the same amount. Therefore the forming or diminishing aspects between natal and directed planets change moderately fast and are very important to consider.

Both PROGRESSED and DIRECTED charts are advanced by any of several methods, each of which is technically and mathematically different from each other but will not be dealt with in detail here. It is enough to say that the rate of advance can be related to the 1) Sun's actual daily motion, 2) Sun's average daily motion, 3) Sun's daily motion at the time of birth without any alterations due to the application of the Equation of Time, 4) MC's rate of advance -- subject to each of the variations noted for the Sun. There are also other set rates of advance that have been advocated and used over the centuries.

What is important to note is that I have never seen an astrologer interpret a chart such that his/her statements varied according to the method or rate of advancement he/she chose to use. So, the method chosen should likely be chosen based on how accurate you find the "timing" of that method to be compared to other methods. It is only the timing that is important, not the interpretive value.

However, it does make a difference in how you interpret a Progressed chart relative to a Directed chart. Progressed charts are seen as an overall sense of personal development and experience in which each planet-pair is seen in the role it plays relative to the whole natal chart meaning. Directed charts are interpreted in terms of ones personal identity, intent, life style, health and attitude --- in other words how the chart is seen through the eyes of the Sun. One's skill in applying these nuanced interpretations is what marks the difference between a student and a capable astrologer.

There are a number of symbolic progressions or directions, often of the Ascendant or of the MC that some astrologers use -- 3 degrees or 7 degrees per year. Those astrologers who practice URANIAN astrology have a whole set of tools to view and progress charts. And Joytish practioners have a number, a great number, of approaches to progression-practices.

It is my opinion that most astrologers in Europe, the US, Australia, etc. use Secondary Progressions and Solar Arc Directions most of the time. It should be noted that Solar Arc Directions are most easily used in conjunction with the 90 degree wheel -- a mechanical charting tools that facilitate predictive practices, or a software version of it.

As a medium range predictive tool, progressions and directions do provide a nice picture of what has happened in the past couple of years and in the next couple of years. As one gains experience with them, it is sometimes easy to see even further ahead without recalculating the charts.

As a "precise" tool of prediction, the generally slow rate of movement per year prohibits one from saying exactly when a narrowing-to-exact orb of contact will take effect in someones life. Mars works "early" while Saturn is often "slow" to exhibit its influence. There are advocates for various forms of "averaging" when one or several aspects will combine to produce an event.

When an aspect in a progressed or directed chart will "materialize" is often either a combination of factors or a guess as to when in a period of time it will show up. The Solar Arc Direction method, due to the 90 degree wheel and dependence upon midpoint usage, will typically be best for fine-tuning "when" something might happen.

Should you use TRANSITS to a progressed or directed chart. In my opinion, NO, you should not. Progressed/Directed charts are symbolic time charts in which an actual date in the past represents the current year. Using current planet positions with positions from long ago, other than the natal chart, seems wrong. Dave

franniee
03-12-2010, 10:06
OK Guys -

Thanks for all of this!

Thanks Dave for the book recommendations!!!

I thought solar returns were a predictive method..... oh well ...

dadsnook2000
03-12-2010, 11:47
First, franniee, this thread hasn't yet addressed Solar Returns which I would place into Minderwiz's "short term" prediction grouping.

Second, there are solar returns and solar returns --- three types, actually. Tropical, Sidereal and precession-corrected Tropical (which is a lot like Sidereal). They are generally read differently from each other.

Third, relative to Tropical Solar Returns, there are several broad approaches that have been developed and practiced over the centuries. The Siderealists take a very different approach than what the Tropicalists take --- they focus on angles and a number of secondary and supportive charting techniques. My approach uses p.c. Solar Returns and a very different related set of daily charts.

In any of these several methods, the approaches that you have described seem unorganized and do not follow a logical or linear process.

I will be glad to discuss Solar Returns but I believe that Minderwiz may want to keep this particular thread devoted to prediction in general and not delve into one detail process. Perhaps another specialized thread would be best. Let us wait until tomorrow and see if he wants to compartmentalize the discussion of Solar Returns. Then, we can continue this discussion. Dave

PS: It seems unlikely that transiting Pluto would conjoin natal Pluto once one reaches adulthood---that would only occur at birth or in the first year of life.

Minderwiz
03-12-2010, 19:07
Whilst I'd like to keep this thread as a resource on predictive techniques and methods, you raise some interesting issues. So it might be a good idea to post a new thread with your questions relating to your own Solar Returns and I can cross reference it with this one. That will keep this thread general enough for everyone to get an overview and then raise specific questions relating to their own situation within the main discussion forum.

We will of course be looking at some of the techniques mentioned in more detail as this thread continues, so Solar Returns will no doubt be getting a detailed consideration in terms of approach and techniques.

Like Dave I have some concerns about your transiting Pluto conjunct natal Pluto - It depends how tight we define conjunction, but even allowing a wide orb of 8 degrees (far too wide for Pluto) and allowing for the fact that Pluto turned retrograde 4 months after your birth and retraced it's steps across your natal position, Pluto cleared the conjunction range by your fifth birthday, and will never return to it (unless you live to be 246) :)

From your description of the chart it matches the one I cast but if I turn on Pluto (Ugh!) SR Pluto is in your eighth trining your natal Sun.

So Again, please post in the main forum and we can look at specific issues relating to your SR chart(s) for this year.

Minderwiz
03-12-2010, 20:08
Thanks for the input Dave.

For those following a Traditional approach, or simply exploring it, as part of the learning process, Dave's distinction between 'Directions' and 'Progressions' is a modern one. You will find little reference to 'Progressions' within the Tradition till the Seventeenth Century when Plaicidus di Titti developed two methods - the first he called 'Secondary Directions' and are the direct precursor of the Modern Secondary Progressions, based on advancing the horoscope for one day for each year of life. The second technique he called 'Secondary Progressions' and was based on a synodic month for a year. Placidus tried to claim Ptolemaic authority for his techniques but his reference to Ptolemy is at a point where Ptolemy was discussing Profections. Placidus' Secondary Progressions have largely fallen out of use but his Secondary Directions are still alive and kicking as modern Secondary Progressions (though Placidus did not intend all planets to be used, merely the Hylegical planets and points).

Directions were simply a movement of a promissor towards a significator (see Primary Directions later in the thread) giving the impression that the significator is moving forward in the 'direction' of the zodiac - i.e. forward through the zodiac in the direction of the signs.

Dave's reference to cycles is important - Astrology makes great use of cycles both in its Traditional and Modern guises. This isn't really the place to discuss these cycles in major detail (maybe the subject for another thread?) but remember that even in Mundane Astrology, a long term period of 10 years may be as far into the future as it's safe to go, (and many would question even that).

Minderwiz
03-12-2010, 20:55
OK some more books:

Primary Directions, by Martin Gansten (2009) examines the method both in Traditional and Modern usage

Predictive Astrology, Bernadette Brady (1999) subtitled 'The Eagle and the Lark' covers Transits, Progressions and the Eclipse Cycle and makes some reference to Solar Returns - one of the classics

Planets in Transit, Rob Hand

Predictive Astrology, Christine Shaw (2001) mainly concerned with Progressions

The Art of Predictive Astrology, Carol Rushman (2002) covers Progressions, Transits and Eclipse Cycles

Astrology A Language of Life, Volume 1 Progressions, Robert Blasche (1998) the first in a series of books which covers various methods of Progressions.

Secondary Progressions, Nancy Anne Hastings (1984) One of the classic texts for students of Modern Astrology.

Planets in Transit, Rob Hand (1976) Still used as a standard text on transits, despite Hand having repudiated the approach and turned to Traditional techniques.

Most of the above books cover the modern Psychological approach to Astrology (or attempt to cover both modern and traditional approaches) The ones below cover Traditional Astrology only

Astrologia Gallica, Jean Baptiste Morin Volumes 22 (Directions) 23 (Revolutions) and 24 (Transits)

Christian Astrology Book 3, William Lilly covers how to set up, and interpret natal charts and then make predictions using (Primary) Directions, Profections, Solar Returns and Transits

Astrological Roots - The Hellenistic Legacy, Joseph Crane. A reasonable guide to the Hellenistic approach and covers Profections and Planetary Periods.


Please remember that Astrology has been undergoing significant changes in the last 20 years. Before 1990 (approx) Traditional approaches were largely ignored but there has since been a major rise in interest. Thus for some major Astrologers, what they wrote 30 years ago and what they write now has shifted. Rob Hand has abandoned the Modern approach whilst Liz Greene has shifted to a position somewhat in the middle, attempting to combine both Traditional and Modern techniques. Whist there's a lot of investigation into Traditional methods of forecasting much of it has only been published in article format and is yet to show up in textbooks. So please remember to search the web as well as the bookshop.

franniee
03-12-2010, 22:07
BTW the pluto bothered me all night... something was wrong with that - I knew pluto was in capricorn and in my solar return chart it popped up in Virgo.... so there is no way that was correct... not sure why that happened. :rolleyes:

ah I just did it again and it is in the right spot.... strange.... so never mind on him.

Again I was posting the solar return results thinking it was a predictive model.... and one step up from looking at transits.

I have the Hand books planets in transit and planets in composite. Thanks for the other recommendations.

franniee
03-12-2010, 23:20
The Medium Term is perhaps six months to two years. Methods that could be used are:

Solar Return Charts. Each year the Sun returns to the degree and minute it was at when you were born - your solar birthday. A Chart for that moment will give information about the year ahead. Solar Return charts are derived from your natal chart and are subordinate to it. They must be read in conjunction with the natal chart and must not be seen as being more important than the natal chart. Key issues surround the way in which the chart is read - they should NOT be read in the same way as a natal chart. Traditionally it was the similarity or difference from the Natal chart that mattered, especially in relation to the signs on the four angles (and therefore the planets that ruled those angles)' as well as planets on or near those angles. An issue which Dave has become associated with, is whether or not to correct the charts for the precession of the equinoxes - the slight shift of the Sun against the stellar background at the time at which it appears to cross the equator at the vernal equinox in the North. This change is quite small, about 1 degree of movement over 72 years. The older we get the more the effect of precession occurs. For me if I want to go by the Sun's actual position against the stellar background at the time I was born and the time it reaches that exact same position this year I have to recognise that it needs to move nearly a whole degree further. Hence we now have two competing methods for calculating SRs and arguments as to which is best, or even about whether they are complementary.


This is what I was attempting to do....

Minderwiz
04-12-2010, 06:07
OK, lets have a look at your SR chart and it's reading in a bit more detail. As this may take some time and Dave will also need to inject some of his own thoughts I'll relocate this section to a new thread. That gives us plenty of room to be as detailed as we want and for you to ask as many questions relating to the method are reading as you want.

Minderwiz
12-12-2010, 00:12
One of the oldest forms of prediction is the idea of Planets governing specific periods of of life. This can range from the very simple to the very complex. A simple approach would be to take the Triplicity rulers at the time of your birth (that is for your Ascendant). Two or three rulers have been used in this scheme. If you were born during the day (after sunrise but before sunset) the Day Triplicity ruler would rule the first part of your life, the Night triplicity ruler would rule the second. This would be reversed if you were born at night. Some Greek schemes had a third, 'participating' ruler and if used, this would rule the final third of your life.

The big problem of course is that we don't know the length of our life at the outset (though there are Astrological techniques which claim to measure it accurately from the natal chart), so when the changes come is difficult to estimate. I was born at Night with a Leo Ascendant, so my first period would be governed by Jupiter the Nocturnal Fire Triplicity ruler, my second would be ruled by the Sun (the day ruler) and my final period would be ruled by Saturn (the participating ruler) The use of Saturn might appear very strange as few if any would classify Saturn as 'Firy' but Saturn is a diurnal planet and Fire signs are seen as naturally diurnal. Given that Sun and Jupiter have already been used and Mars, Venus and the Moon are nocturnal, the only other candidate would be Mercury. Mercury however is seen as a bit odd, taking his nature from the time of day and association with other planets. My guess is that I have now entered my Saturn period.

There are a number of systems that get round the problem of changes by giving the planets specific durations for their rule. Variations are found in Hellenistic, Vedic and Persian systems and their use in the West lasted well into the Medieval period. The origin of the various periods for each planet appears to rest in their cycles, either relative to the Sun or in the case of the Sun, its 19.0 year period is derived from the metonic cycle between eclipses in the same degree of a sign.

For a more detailed coverage see Rob Hand's website

http://www.robhand.com/periods.htm

and for the Persian periods:

http://www.robhand.com/firdar2.htm


Recently I have developed an interest in 'Zodiacal Releasing' or Aphesis, The starting point does not have to be the Ascendant, but can be (in principle) any of the Greek Lots. However, only two seem to be widely used.

Aphesis measured from the Lot (Part) of Fortune tells us something about ourselves - the 'What I am' giving periods relating to health, happiness, financial stability, etc. Aphesis from the Lot (Part) of Spirit tells us something about 'What I Do' - Career, hobbies, friendships and associations, etc.

Calculating the periods can be rather time consuming, as they don't necessarily break down into easy fractions. However there is a useful free program for people interested:

http://www.archive.org/details/tucows_285560_Zodiacal_Aphesis

The technique of Zodiacal Releasing works in signs rather than planets - starting with the sign in which the relevant Lot is placed. Each main period is divded down into twelve sub periods of equal length and these in turn can be divided down still further.

There is also a variant used by Vettius Valens, which uses the signs in order from the Lot but limits the length of each period to the number of years associated with it's ruler - so a Leo period will last 19 years taken from the Sun's metonic cycle.

I'll use Valens' system as it is the one programmed into Zodiacal Aphesis and therefore will match any downloads.

Minderwiz
12-12-2010, 04:25
For this post I'm using the program Zodiacal Aphesis referred to in the previous post. There are two general options - releasing from the Lot of Fortune and releasing from the Lot of Spirit. Releasing from Fortune indicates what the world does to us - that which we cannot control or influence. Releasing from Spirit looks at what we do - that which we can control.

Franniee's Lot of Fortune lies in Aries. So the first period in her life is an Aries period. As we are using a Hellenistic system, whole signs are used and any aspects are whole sign. So even though Franniee's Lot of Fortune is at 20 degrees Aries, she gets the full Aries period of 15 years - the number of years attributed to Mars, its ruler. That will in turn be followed by a Taurus period of 8 Years (Venus has a period of 8 years) and so on.

It should be noted that the Greeks used a 360 day year, even though they were aware that this did not exactly fit the Solar return to Aries. So the years mentioned above do not correspond to modern years - hence my need for the software LOL

We can subdivide these periods - if we do the first sub period of each main period is of the same sign as the main period. Sub periods then continue in sign order. Let's look at Franniee's first few main periods:

First Main - Aries - birth till 24th June 1976
the Taurus - till 13 May 1984
Gemini - till 29 Jan 2004
Cancer - till 19 Sep 2028

Note that the Cancer period squares the sign of the Lot. So Cancer main and sub periods are going to be more stressful than Aries periods, Gemini periods and sub periods are less likely to be stressful as they sextile the Lot. From 29 Jan 2004 till 17 Feb 2006 was the Cancer sub period so this is probably the period of maximum stress during this period. Currently you are in a Sagittarius sub period - from December 2009 through till 23 March 2011. As Sagittarius is trine to the Lot, this should be a relatively good period.

We can explore some of these sub periods in more detail if you would like - remember that we can actually focus right down to particular dates.

We should also consider the triplicity rulers for the Sect ruler - The Moon rules night births, such as yours and your Moon is placed in Libra, and Air sign.

Your Triplicity rulers are therefore Mercury, Saturn and Jupiter in that order. Mercury is in Libra (which opposes the Lot) Saturn is in Capricorn, which squares the Lot and Jupiter is also in Capricorn. This suggests that you will indeed have health problems and that these are more likely either in the main periods ruled by Libra and Capricorn, neither of which you are likely to meet in your lifetime, or in sub periods of Libra and Capricorn and these will indeed be encountered. Recent such periods are early 1984, much of 1991 and the period between February 1994 and May 1996 - the latter being a Capricorn period.

On the other hand Leo periods are likely to be good as Venus is in Leo and therefore trines the Lot. These may well be the best periods if I understand the system

That's an overview - if you wish to check any date please let me know - especially relating to your back accident.

BTW Taking up the point made by Dave in the Solar Return thread we need to bear in mind context and also intensity. Few of us live our lives in the fast lane, with momentous events littering each year. A good period will not bring riches - unless your natal chart suggests it, a bad period will not bring disaster - we are talking in relative terms.

Edited to add

Curt Manwaring has argued that squares may simply represent 'busy' periods when more happens whereas signs that are cadent from the Lot may show relatively little happening. Given that being busy involves some form of stress, that may well be the case.

franniee
12-12-2010, 23:32
Thank you Minderwiz.

Tell me if this is the info you are looking for.....

Franniee's Lot of Fortune lies in Aries. So the first period in her life is an Aries period. As we are using a Hellenistic system, whole signs are used and any aspects are whole sign. So even though Franniee's Lot of Fortune is at 20 degrees Aries, she gets the full Aries period of 15 years - the number of years attributed to Mars, its ruler. That will in turn be followed by a Taurus period of 8 Years (Venus has a period of 8 years) and so on.

It should be noted that the Greeks used a 360 day year, even though they were aware that this did not exactly fit the Solar return to Aries. So the years mentioned above do not correspond to modern years - hence my need for the software LOL

We can subdivide these periods - if we do the first sub period of each main period is of the same sign as the main period. Sub periods then continue in sign order. Let's look at Franniee's first few main periods:

First Main - Aries - birth till 24th June 1976
the Taurus - till 13 May 1984
Gemini - till 29 Jan 2004
Cancer - till 19 Sep 2028

An interesting thing is I can see these as breaks in periods. The end of 1974 I changed schools and I definitely settled in by the time of the Taurus period. I was far more stable and settled and I excelled. I continued that way until I finished college.... which correspond to the Taurus dates....

The Gemini period I can see as distinct as well and I can see the transition into cancer.... I hope I am looking at it correctly. I am using what I know of the signs temperaments to see how they would color the period.

Note that the Cancer period squares the sign of the Lot. So Cancer main and sub periods are going to be more stressful than Aries periods, Gemini periods and sub periods are less likely to be stressful as they sextile the Lot. From 29 Jan 2004 till 17 Feb 2006 was the Cancer sub period so this is probably the period of maximum stress during this period. Currently you are in a Sagittarius sub period - from December 2009 through till 23 March 2011. As Sagittarius is trine to the Lot, this should be a relatively good period.

YAY a Sag sub period.... from dec 09 - March '11 a good period!!! Dec 09 - Feb '10 was a rough time financially.... but then things picked up and steadily increased. All good!!! This past summer was catch up time! Please tell me that after March will be an even better period!!! My Jupiter wants to hear this!!! :)

As for what you wrote......I can completely see how Jan 2004 thru Feb '06 were stressful! EXTREMELY so!!!!!! My daughter was born in October of 03 and I was working full time and caring for her full time. She came with me to work. I lost my identity. I had to juggle a lot with little to no help.

At the same time my husband's first business was suffering because he had an evil, disgusting, bully, type partner. He was stealing from the business which was opened in '02. He felt entitled was a jealous ugly person and begrudged my husband any happiness. My husband began suspecting all of this around 2004..... he didn't sever ties with the animal until September of '05 when he closed that business and opened one on his own. This animal still threatens us. We hired a lawyer and he contacted him but he prefers to leave messages where he spits in the phone rather than have whatever he feels went wrong righted..... he has had to close 3 subsequent business and in the last one he was practically thrown in jail for his thefts.

On top of it my husband was commuting to LI as we were living in the city on the west side - so it would take him upwards of 2 hours.... depending on traffic sometimes it would take him over an hour just to cross town! He would take us to work at 7AM and I wouldn't see him until 10PM. It was TOUGH.

In '05 I went in search of a house on LI - I got one but even that proved to be insanely stressful. We had to move in with my parents for 4 months because my apt sold in 5 seconds flat and while their house is quite large it was HORRIBLE!

When we got into our home and moved in on 10/01/05 I was war worn and very BEAT up!!! I was tremendously depressed! This house was not what I dreamed of - we have since modified it as much as we can - it still doesn't fit but it is cozy enough. I was commuting into the city with my child at 6AM every morning. I was very lost and lonely. I didn't shake the depression until feb or march of '06. Does this fit in with what you were saying?

We can explore some of these sub periods in more detail if you would like - remember that we can actually focus right down to particular dates.

We should also consider the triplicity rulers for the Sect ruler - The Moon rules night births, such as yours and your Moon is placed in Libra, and Air sign.

Your Triplicity rulers are therefore Mercury, Saturn and Jupiter in that order. Mercury is in Libra (which opposes the Lot) Saturn is in Capricorn, which squares the Lot and Jupiter is also in Capricorn. This suggests that you will indeed have health problems and that these are more likely either in the main periods ruled by Libra and Capricorn, neither of which you are likely to meet in your lifetime, or in sub periods of Libra and Capricorn and these will indeed be encountered. Recent such periods are early 1984, much of 1991 and the period between February 1994 and May 1996 - the latter being a Capricorn period.

I don't remember any health issues in 1984. Nothing stands out. The beginning of '91 was fine, it was the last quarter that took a terrible turn. That was when my brother got sick. He passed in June of '92. So '92 was HORRID! My father had a major heart op in October of 92 from all of the stress and I got bronchitis so badly that I ripped a muscle in my chest - excruciating! I had bronchitis for 4 months or so! I was quite sick! Then in March or April of '93 I tore my knee extreme skiing. My body wasn't in shape from the toll it took in '92 and I tore my knee up and had to have it operated on. That was the turning point for health for me.... the emotional stress of losing my brother took it's toll for many years.

I don't remember anything significant from feb'94 - may '96 health wise. The back accident was in October 9th of '97 - the operation was in November of '01. I also tore a ligament in my wrist during that accident and had to have that operated on.

This is a lot of info for a stickie..... :rolleyes: but ok.

Minderwiz
13-12-2010, 06:34
Thanks for the feedback Franniee. Seem to be some hits in there just using the main and first sub period.

You might be interested to know that for your accident of 9th October 1997 came in a level 3 Scorpio period (next level down) ruled by Mars, which ran from 22nd September till 30th October. Mars is associated with accidents and is Lord 12 in your Natal chart (using whole sign houses), and Scorpio is the sixth sign from your part of Fortune.

If we shift down a further period, to level 4, the accident occured in an Aquarius period ruled by Saturn (the skeleton) which ran from 4th October to 10th October. So now we have a six day period when you might have accidents (Mars) to a bone or bones.

You don't give a date for the surgery, can I guess at 9-11 November which was a Mars Level 4 period (Scorpio again) in a Level 3 Virgo period (Virgo squares your Part of Fortune) The Virgo Level 3 ran from 3 November till late December.

A Saturn Level 4 Aquarius period immediately preceded it in the first two days of November, which I suppose would add symmetry to the situation as the accident was in a Saturn Aquarius Level 4 period. There was another Saturn level 4 period from 20th to 26th November.

Now I don't use this method, so in a real sense I'm looking to see if it throws up ANY significant hits.

BTW was the injury to your lower back?

BTW2 your point on the sticky is noted - for the Firdaria I'll post the Firdaria reading as a separate thread, as I've given the links in this thread already.

franniee
13-12-2010, 06:49
The date for the surgery was a Thursday in November a week or 10 days before the major plane crash in the rockaways. My first appt after I got out of the hospital was the morning the plane crashed and the city went into lock own and we couldn't leave. Let me se if I can figure the date out

franniee
13-12-2010, 06:57
Ok the date for the surgery was nov 1 2001. I got out of the hospital that Sunday which would have been the 4th. the plane crash was the 12 a Monday when I had my follow up with the surgeon. I got out of the hospital a few days early because I protested. Not a hospital gal. :D

Yes I had a fusion of my lower spine. L4-s1.

Barleywine
02-09-2011, 03:27
Third, relative to Tropical Solar Returns, there are several broad approaches that have been developed and practiced over the centuries. The Siderealists take a very different approach than what the Tropicalists take --- they focus on angles and a number of secondary and supportive charting techniques. My approach uses p.c. Solar Returns and a very different related set of daily charts.

This seems like a good place to pose this question since I've become interested in solar returns in general and precession-corrected returns in particular as I continue to work on rectifying my father's natal chart. I've been using solar returns for years but never in a very systematic way, preferring secondary progressions, solar-arc directions and transits. But I'm now getting around to reading a couple of books I've had for a long time but never spent any time with.

I just finished Ray Merriman's "The Solar Return Book of Prediction." It has a very clearly-written basic explanation of how to interpret the SR chart in relation to the natal planets and angles. The only new thing in it for me is that I've always related the SR planets and angles to the natal chart structure rather than the other way around. But his explanation of the SR chart as providing a "structure of experience" for the coming year, into which the natal planets and angles are placed, seems sensible. Oh, and he does have an explanation of the "antiscion" (it basically looks like a "parallel" to me) that agrees with what I learned here.

Jim Eshelman's "Interpreting Solar Returns" is up next, and it seems much more dense. I already see that he has an Appendix entry describing how to correct for precession in a SR chart. Although his SVP table only goes up to 1995, I found that the American Ephemeris has an SVP entry for each month. If it's really that simple, I just need to add 1 degree 13 minutes and 20 seconds of arc to my Dad's natal Sun to bring it up to the corrected value for his 87th year. My question is: Is Eshelman's book a good source, or is there a better one I should get my hands on?

I will be getting Fagan and Firebrace's sidereal "Primer" (which is still available at a reasonable price) but want the best specific reference on Solar Returns available (I also have Bernadette Brady's "The Eagle and the Lark" and Mary Shea's "Planets in Solar Returns" but the former has a much broader scope and the latter seems more like a reference book rather than one to read for comprehension of the subject).

Barleywine
03-09-2011, 21:23
Is anyone using Ed Falis's freeware Astroframes to calculate primary directions? According to his website, it calculates classical Ptolemaic directions and classical Placidean mundo directions, with other methods coming later. It uses the Swiss Ephemeris. I downloaded it and will give it a try.

Minderwiz
04-09-2011, 05:31
Is anyone using Ed Falis's freeware Astroframes to calculate primary directions? According to his website, it calculates classical Ptolemaic directions and classical Placidean mundo directions, with other methods coming later. It uses the Swiss Ephemeris. I downloaded it and will give it a try.

In terms of your reading list, you might well add Primary Directions, by Martin Gansten, which was recently published by Wessex Astrologer. It looks at both the mechanics and theories of Primary Directions both ancient and modern.

Gansten also rates various software that attempts to calculate Primaries. He actually mentions Astrframes and says that it calculates correctly. Apparently though it only calculates converse directions in the modern sense, not the classical sense, so it would not do for me, as I need the classical version.

Gansten's choice is Morinus (only the 'modern' was available at the time of writing but the traditional is simply a sub-set of it). Gansten says that it by far surpasses most commercial software (for Primaries) and says he warmly recommends it to students of Primaries.

If you decide to buy his book (and I highly recommend it) be aware that he uses the sidereal zodiac for his natal charts (using the Krishnamurti ayanamsa) - which is only mentioned in the preface. As he shifts between tropical and sidereal zodiacs on occasion but without explicitly saying so, it can be a bit confusing if you've not read the preface LOL

Nevertheless this book is highly recommended.

Barleywine
04-09-2011, 12:09
In terms of your reading list, you might well add Primary Directions, by Martin Gansten, which was recently published by Wessex Astrologer. It looks at both the mechanics and theories of Primary Directions both ancient and modern.

Gansten also rates various software that attempts to calculate Primaries. He actually mentions Astrframes and says that it calculates correctly. Apparently though it only calculates converse directions in the modern sense, not the classical sense, so it would not do for me, as I need the classical version.

Gansten's choice is Morinus (only the 'modern' was available at the time of writing but the traditional is simply a sub-set of it). Gansten says that it by far surpasses most commercial software (for Primaries) and says he warmly recommends it to students of Primaries.

If you decide to buy his book (and I highly recommend it) be aware that he uses the sidereal zodiac for his natal charts (using the Krishnamurti ayanamsa) - which is only mentioned in the preface. As he shifts between tropical and sidereal zodiacs on occasion but without explicitly saying so, it can be a bit confusing if you've not read the preface LOL

Nevertheless this book is highly recommended.

That one is on my list. I'm currently reading Charles Jayne's "Progressions and Directions" published in rather "home-made" fashion by his Astrological Bureau back in the '70s. Since I have Riyal set up for sidereal, I can very easily produce sidereal natal charts to use with Gansten's method. I really need to read Fagan and Firebrace's "Primer of Sidereal Astrology" before I venture into that territory, though.

Minderwiz
05-09-2011, 07:51
That one is on my list. I'm currently reading Charles Jayne's "Progressions and Directions" published in rather "home-made" fashion by his Astrological Bureau back in the '70s. Since I have Riyal set up for sidereal, I can very easily produce sidereal natal charts to use with Gansten's method. I really need to read Fagan and Firebrace's "Primer of Sidereal Astrology" before I venture into that territory, though.

There's no need to mug up on sidereal approaches for Gansten's book. It only becomes an issue if you try to follow his worked example (using a calculator or a spreadsheet). This is not necessary for understanding the principles, as he confines the calculation to an appendix. However being something of a masochist, I decided to try and work through the calculations to test my understanding.

The problem comes when he uses an example from earlier in the book. In the example Mercury is quoted at 15, 17 Cancer but in the example of the detailed calculation Mercury's longitude is quoted as 128 degrees 25 minutes. Now 15, 17 Cancer translates into a longitude of 105 degrees 17 minutes and I found it virtually impossible to understand why he claimed that longitude until I noticed he said tropical longitude. I had the faint recollection of him mentioning his use of the sidereal zodiac in the preface, (at the other end of the book and read several days prior). So I checked the difference between the Krishnamurti sidereal Vernnal equinox and the tropical vernal equinox and found that the difference was 23 degrees 56 minutes, whereas in the calculation the difference is 23 degrees 8 minutes - so the next issue was to explain the discrepencey between the two 'differences'. The answer is that the person was born about 57.6 years ago. Remember that precesion is a continuing phenomenon. And this precession over someone's life has the same impact on PDs as it does for Solar Returns

It became clear that in order to do the calculation it's necessary to convert sidereal longitude into tropical longitude, because of the nature of the spherical geometry involved.

Now if I'd not waded into the calculation line by line, I'd not have become confused and tracked it down to Gansten's use of sidereal charts and the need to convert to tropical in order to do the maths. But as you're mathematically inclined (like me) you may well come across the same headache LOL.

Barleywine
05-09-2011, 09:52
It became clear that in order to do the calculation it's necessary to convert sidereal longitude into tropical longitude, because of the nature of the spherical geometry involved.

Now if I'd not waded into the calculation line by line, I'd not have become confused and tracked it down to Gansten's use of sidereal charts and the need to convert to tropical in order to do the maths. But as you're mathematically inclined (like me) you may well come across the same headache LOL.

The spherical geometry involved confused me to no end when I first started out. I finally had to draw my own 3D model just to figure out what was going on in three-dimensional space with all these planes and angles.

On this very (or at least related) topic, this evening I unearthed a 1976 Journal of Geocosmic Research in which Rob Hand explained why it's more accurate to use geographic/astronomical latitude in chart calculation rather than geocentric latitude. It has to do with the Earth being an oblate sphere, flattened a bit on the top and bottom. For years I always made the 11' subtraction from the atlas values to make this correction. I didn't notice the option being offered in the computer programs I use now. Wonder which one they use.

Minderwiz
06-09-2011, 20:00
The spherical geometry involved confused me to no end when I first started out. I finally had to draw my own 3D model just to figure out what was going on in three-dimensional space with all these planes and angles.

On this very (or at least related) topic, this evening I unearthed a 1976 Journal of Geocosmic Research in which Rob Hand explained why it's more accurate to use geographic/astronomical latitude in chart calculation rather than geocentric latitude. It has to do with the Earth being an oblate sphere, flattened a bit on the top and bottom. For years I always made the 11' subtraction from the atlas values to make this correction. I didn't notice the option being offered in the computer programs I use now. Wonder which one they use.

Yes I must admit that I had to puzzle a bit over the spherical geometry (SG) in Gansten, as my maths is statistics based not geometrical LOL.

Whilst some knowledge of SG is necessary I have a philosophical problem with it. That is, to what extent, if any, does a given increase in our SG accuracy lead to a measurable increase in the accuracy of our Astrology. I think we need to here distinguish between Natal delineation and prediction. I don't think any increase in SG accuracy has a discernable impact on natal delineation. Indeed I see no a priori reason why a reading from a Whole Signs chart should not be as useful as reading from a quadrant systems based chart - notice I use the word useful rather than accurate here. The emphasis of the reading might be different but it may still produce at least as useful insights into the native's character. The same holds true for different quadrant systems being used or indeed using the sidereal rather than tropical zodiac.

When it comes to prediction, the situation may be different. Quadrant systems were introduced to support the predictive technique of Primary Directions, which does depend on measuring (by space or time) the progres of a degree of the zodiac between two point in the sky - for example the position of a planet at birth and the point of the Ascendant. That clearly does require some use of SG. This problem is compounded if we wish to measure the progress of a planet to the degree of a natal house cusp, because it appears to require us to come up with an accurate system of identifying the intermediate house cusps - the angles themselves are more easily identified.

In principle this appears to suggest that if we can improve our SG we will automatically improve our predictions. However to what extent is this possible - can we achieve 100% accuracy or is there a point at which further increases in the accuracy of SG have no discernable effect - possibly because of random error in human behaviour - we are not entirely automatons, or alternatively because if we can't come up with a definitive house system, does an improvement elsewhere in our SG, get lost in the grey area or where house cusps lie.

Astrology is primarily divination - an attempt to read the mind of God. It might make more use of mathematics than most other types of divination but is the mind of God, amenable to total description by mathematics and is the Astrologer the passive applicant of mathematical rules that yield the required knowledge or does he or she have an interaction with the mind of God that is difficult (or impossible?) to express in a mathematical way.

We are after all studying Astrology - the word or message of the stars, not Astrophysics - the physical properties and dynamic processes of celestial objects. The latter might well be very helpful in establishing the context of the message but the message is more than the properties and processes.

dadsnook2000
06-09-2011, 21:11
This subject of spherical geometry and its impact on charts is a very large subject. I will attempt to reduce it to its bare minimum, always a dubious course of action.

NATAL charts are really models that include some"actuality" in the sky patterns and much that cannot be seen such as sign boundaries, houses, etc. If the model works, it works.

Once we "MOVE" or "ANIMATE" the chart in some way we start to encounter issues related to spherical geometry. We all know this. Because of the inclination of the equator to the ecliptic, there are places and times when one's positional calculations (by hand or computer) yield distortions of one kind or another. An example is that one sees the Moon at the Descendant angle in a chart, yet due to its its orbital position relative to the nodal axis it is really out of sight below the horizon at the chart's calculated time --- it's actual position being "projected" upward by the calculation to the ecliptic where we measure our longitudinal position (zodiac), different from the equator where we measure our locational position.

This is one reason why many astrological programs offer a speculum table --- it calls our attention to these spherical geometry issues. OUR EARLY STUDIES LIST MEMBERS should look at these rising-setting-culminating tables to find instances for themselves. Latitude matters --- the questions are A) by how much, and B) should you care? Dave

Barleywine
06-09-2011, 21:29
We are after all studying Astrology - the word or message of the stars, not Astrophysics - the physical properties and dynamic processes of celestial objects. The latter might well be very helpful in establishing the context of the message but the message is more than the properties and processes.

Well-said. After doggedly chasing the fine details for years, I now believe in honing the precision only to the point that I consistently get results I can accept as reasonably accurate. (I guess you could say I've evolved into a pragmatist from my previous state of hyper-rationalism.) For example, in rectification I'm finding that the precessed angles and planets seem to "tighten up" the timing of past events. Granted, in the charts I'm working with they shift less than one degree from their tropical ephemeris positions, but in looking for partile aspects it has some relevance. I'm working with them now in prediction since I can see their subtle contribution to rectification. And as an hermetic qabalist of long standing I certainly consider even the vaguest glimpses of the "mind" of God largely inscrutable until VERY high levels of attainment (if then). All we have to go on is what we can see of the "works" of that mind on the planes we're able to reach. It's been said that tarot functions on the "astral" plane similar to activities like scrying, whereas astrology would seem to operate on the "mental" plane. Put another way, I believe it was Eliphas Levi (but don't quote me on that :)) who called tarot the "silver key" and astrology the "gold key" to enlightenment.

Edit: I didn't find it here, but this is an interesting site:

http://www.golden-dawn-canada.com/pdf/the%20key%20of%20the%20mysteries.pdf

econdude
13-12-2013, 08:48
To help those who are learning Astrology, I'm posting a thread on predictive methods. This is a result of issues raised in another thread and I can see that making the step from casting and interpreting a natal (or indeed mundane) chart,there comes a time to move on to the next stage of predicting what comes next.

I'm not going to go through the methods in detail, some of them have been the subject of threads elsewhere, or have appeared within threads. Instead I'm going to do an introduction (and I'm hoping this will be added to by others in subsequent posts) and add links to the methods, where they have been dealt with in those other threads. The latter may develop over time as it requires some real attempt to examine previous threads for predictive methods. Again, I hope that others, especially Dave, will add links to their own threads, opinions, etc.

I'll also try to add some books but I'm going to do that as an associated thread as there are so many and others may have read or prefer other books or may have different views than mine, so their posts would be welcomed there.

I'll make this thread a stick and I hope that it will grow over time, with further posts from me and others about our methods and preferences but especially from those who are learning and want to ask questions, or relate their experiences with the methods.

Please feel free to ask any questions relating to predictive methods here, or post your observations. The thread is inteded to be helpful but it is not, nor can it be a teaching thread - it's hopefully a resource.

One of my favorite authors is Celeste Teal. She introduces many effective prediction techniques, including converse charts (for example, the converse progressed chart). I have found that to be useful.

dadsnook2000
13-12-2013, 10:41
A previous post noted your interest in Solar Returns and the several books you have read regarding Solar Returns. I'll offer a few random comments on Solar Returns.

** When one casts a Solar Return chart, the actual day of the Return and the actual time of the day will appear to be random. By this I mean that the Sun/Sun position may be in any house. This will cause the S/R Ascendant to be different, except in a few cases, from the natal Ascendant. In other words, your natal chart is reoriented relative to the Solar Return's angles and house structure.

** If one casts two or more Solar Returns for themselves, all for the same location, they will note that each successive S/R MC will shift forward some 90 degrees per year. This moves the Sun some 3 houses, also. Since this is a regular, repeating phenomena, this is the indication that Solar Returns are cyclic.

** Precession correction is a "small thing." 1/72nd of a degree, approximately, per year. At 36 years of age this amounts to a 1/2 degree. Calculating a S/R with precession correction will shift the angles and house structure of the chart by some 180 degrees. Being, now, 77 years of age, my precession corrected S/R chart will occur more than one day later than a conventional "Tropical" S/R chart.

** It is easy to compare a standard tropical Solar Return chart (TSR) with a precession corrected Solar Return (pcSR). They will have differing MC and Asc. positions. It is also easy to compare a pcSR and a Sidereal Solar Return (SSR) as they will have totally different sign and degree angles --- BUT the relative positions of the Sun, Moon, and planets compared to the angles and houses will be identical in the pcSR and SSR charts. Only the reference circle of signs and degrees is different. This is much like measuring your foot size in inches or centimeters. Different measuring systems but the same foot.
Capable astrologers easily switch back and forth among the various astrological systems.

** Because S/R charts are cyclic in nature, those of us who use pcSR or SSR methods read and treat the SR as a cyclic chart. By that I mean that the SR is both a year-theme chart and a single day chart. Because it is cyclic, the S/R can be "progressed" or moved forward a day at a time for any date in the following S/R annual period. These cyclic charts are read as a series of camera "snap shots", showing a developing series of events, attitudes, actions and situations. These are interpreted within the context of the subject's lifestyle.

** In cyclic charts the natal charts are seen as "how we as adults have chosen to express each of the astrological bodies." The transiting bodies are most often treated as representing seemingly-external influences, changes and/or intrusions. I would note that these transiting planets will often be expressed along the nature of the natal version of that planet. Natal and transiting planet expressions relate to the angles they are near and the S/R houses they are in.

** To summarize part of the above statements: A Solar Return is more than a transit-to-a-natal chart. The SR adds an altered house structure to the mix, whereas a transit chart just shows transiting planets relative to natal planets and houses. The altered SR house structure symbolizes this years "new experience and influence" as represented by the Solar Return.

** Finally, you noted several Solar Return books. I have just about every book on SRs written. Plus one more --- the one I have just written which is intended to be an updated version of Cyril Fagans Solar Return Primer. "Personal Prediction" is a fundamental introduction to precession corrected Solar Returns and Progressed Daily Angles charts. It offers new interpretive methods, gives numerous examples, and shows the astrologer how to use the methods to assess how one has actualized their potential. This last is an often discussed subject by lecture-astrologers but nobody has brought forward a simple method for doing so --- except for Personal Prediction. Not only that, the author (me) has worked with the developer of RIYAL software (free to download and use software) to include the tools to carry out these methods. There is no other software capable of doing this. Personal Prediction, ISBN 978-0-615-63033-5 Dave

MasterJm
26-04-2014, 19:51
21 years Astrologer, i would like to tell that
1. Transits.
2. Secondary Progressions
3. Secondary Progressions receiving Transits.
4. Solar Arc Directions.
are the essential and necessary methods and their combination 100% accurate for me to predict the future.

Synastry:
Natal chart partner - Progressed chart other's partner.
Composite and transits.
Transits over Natal-Progressed synastry.

Μidpoints only conjuncts, oppositions and squares.

Pay attention to separating - approaching transits and the orbis.