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Minderwiz
04-12-2010, 07:37
I've posted a new thread to deal with an issue arising in the Sticky on Predictive Methods. that Franniee raised in relation to her own Solar Return chart and the approach to interpreting it.

I've posted a bi-wheel showing Franniee's SR positions plotted against her natal chart.

Now there are a number of ways of producing the Solar Return chart, depending on whether we decide (if necessary) to relocate the chart to the native's current location and whether we want to allow in some way or other for the precession of the equinoxes over time.

I've kept the Solar Return location to the Natal location and simply used the Tropical Zodiac, which is the easiest (but arguably not the best approach).

The object here is to make a prediction about the coming year (that is the year from the last birthday). The predicitions may not identify specific events but will give an overall judgement for the year. Again there are various ways of proceeding but I'll start with a fairly traditional reading and we can take it from there.

Lilly's first test is to see if the signs on the Ascendant of the SR and Natal charts are the same. If they are then it is the first testimony to a good year ahead. The are not in this case.

Lilly's second step would be to look at the SR Ascendant ruler and it's condition, especially is it combust (within 8.5 degrees of the Sun). This is Saturn (Not Uranus - this is a traditional approach). Saturn is in Libra where it has exaltation, so it is essentially strong (a good sign) and it is not combust. It is placed in the eighth House which is a weak position in the chart. So a strong Saturn is weakened by position. An angular Saturn would have been a good indicator. Perhaps overall Saturn is either a weak positive or neutral testimony for the coming year.

Thirdly Lilly would look at the position of the Sun in the SR chart. In this case the Sun lies in the seventh House. It's angularity is reduced because whilst it rules the Descendant it is placed in Virgo. Still this is a positive testimony to a good year. There is likely to be some focus on relationships during the year

Fourthly Lilly would look at the position of the Moon in the SR chart. The Moon is important for the strength of any chart. If the Moon is in one of it's key essential dignities then it's a testimony for a good year. Here the Moon is in Scorpio, a water sign but as the Sun has not set in the SR chart, it is Mars who rules the Water Triplicity and the Moon has no essential dignity, indeed it is peregrine. Things are not all bad, the Moon is in a separating conjunction with Venus and is conjunct the ninth cusp but overall a testimony pointing to a weak year.

Lilly's penultimate test would be to look at the relationship between the SR Ascendant and the Natal Ascendant - in this case they are square to one another. That's an indicator that the coming year will not be good.

Finally Lilly looks at the planets in some detail. Firstly are the planets distributed in a totally different way between the two charts - particularly is one the reverse of the other - well in the natal chart only two planets are above the horizon, in the SR chart only one is below. So again testimony that things will not run well.

Continuing with the planets, Lilly looks to see if there are any conjunctions between SR and natal planets. Now the SR Sun will conjoin the natal Sun by definition of a Solar Return, so we are really looking at the others. We have two - SR Saturn conjoins Natal Moon and SR Saturn also conjoins Natal Mercury. As Saturn is an infortune, these aspects do not bode well. Lilly would say that they probably signify problems with children, and written/spoken communications (Mercury) and possible health issues such as coughs, depression, and generally feeling down (Moon). Clearly those would not be seen as positive in anyway. That Saturn is in exaltation will mitigate against these being serious but niggly issues could well typify the year.

Looking down the list it seems that the negatives outweigh the positives so it's not going to be a wonderful year but there's nothing seriously awful. On balance not an easy year and having issues relating to relationships (not necessarily romantic ones) children and health.

Saturn is clearly the dominant planet in this reading so the year will be restrictive. Saturn rules your natal MC, so you might find that what benefits there are during the year are more likely to show up through the areas of life ruled by Saturn in your Natal chart - spirituality, career and friends and hopes and dreams, rather than through material things. Saturn is also well dignified in both SR and Natal charts.

Some riders

Lilly would not see this reading as stand alone - he would also be looking at your Primary Directions and Profections and he would modify the reading in their light (these were his main predictive methods). I've not done those (maybe later on) so I can't qualify the reading as he would.

Secondly this is not the only traditional way of reading a Solar Return. Morin might well come up with a different emphasis though he too would want to put the SR chart in the context of Directions in force at the time. Lilly would not relocate the chart but Morin would always cast the chart for the location of the native, so the birth place would only be used if the native was still there or even was just on a return visit.

Minderwiz
04-12-2010, 07:42
The above is a starting point for discussions and questions.

I'm sure Dave will want to introduce the idea of precession corrected return charts, which I've deliberately left out of the reading. Franniee has also probably got quite a few questions to ask.

franniee
04-12-2010, 09:08
The above is a starting point for discussions and questions.

I'm sure Dave will want to introduce the idea of precession corrected return charts, which I've deliberately left out of the reading. Franniee has also probably got quite a few questions to ask.

:laugh: Ah Yeah! I do have a few questions. ;)

Thank you for doing this because it is much easier for me to digest when I have something "tangible" to look at. I think the hardest thing for me to figure out is how to weight the aspects. Some get more weight than others. Thanks for doing the ordering so I could see what I need to look at first etc.....

The chart I cast looks identical.... the thing is I didn't even consider the house changes. Thanks for that. I saw the MC was moved to Aquarius but the house change didn't occur to me .

It's interesting - could be the way I look at things - but I saw the Saturn on my moon and merc as a good thing.... as me seeing through things and not getting overly emotional or losing my logic but I can also see it your way.

Saturn is always my dominant planet so I am a bit used to it. :)

dadsnook2000
04-12-2010, 13:50
I have a question about the natal chart. The data in the charts posted for Franniee gives this data:
Sept. 11, 1961 @ 21:14 EDT
Glen Cove, NY 073w3803 40n5144

This data yields an MC of 23 Capricorn, an Ascendant of 11 Taurus. This is different from the charts posted. I do not want to proceed until this difference is cleared up. Am I overlooking something? Dave

Minderwiz
04-12-2010, 19:02
Dave, You are quite correct in terms of the Ascendant and MC for the natal chart. However the charts posted are:

The Solar Return Chart for 2010 (with no precession correction and for the natal place)

A Bi-wheel of SR chart against the natal chart (outer ring is SR placings). The Bi wheel shows the correct Ascendant and MC.

I did the reading in a rush last night, to try and get the ball rolling. Lilly's method was the easiest to do in the time and fulfilled the object of providing an opening, rather than attempting to be in any way a definitive,

Franniee,

You raise a good point about the role of Saturn both at a natal level and at the SR level. I used Lilly's stock interpretation of the Saturn aspects but he would have only advanced those in the light of his readings of the SR chart together with the annual profections and any important Directions for the year. So it is perfectly possible that Saturn might play a more benevolent role (though being Saturn the taskmaster remains).

I'll have a look at the Primary Directions and Profections during the day and will try to weave those in later, either as part of this thread or when the parent thread on predictions reaches an appropriate point to discuss them.

franniee
04-12-2010, 23:52
I've posted a bi-wheel showing Franniee's SR positions plotted against her natal chart.

FYI I don't live that far away from where I was born which is correct at
Glen Cove, NY 073W 38'03" 40N 51'44"
I live in Syosset, NY 073W 30'09" 40N 49'34"

Minderwiz
05-12-2010, 00:25
Thanks for the update. It doesn't make a lot of difference - about 13 minutes further into Aquarius for the Ascendant and + 8 minutes to the MC. However these days relocations can have quite an effect on SR (and other) charts, so at least we know that we don't really need to worry too much about relocation, in your case :) .

dadsnook2000
06-12-2010, 12:28
Note that my comments relate to your PRECESSION CORRECTED 2010 Solar Return. Because the Tropical Zodiac regresses along Earth's orbital path while a Sidereal Zodiac (or precession corrected Tropical Zodiac) Solar Return does not shift its relative position, the Tropical Solar Return occurs several hours prior to the other forms of return charts. In this period, the Earth rotates and the chart angles of the Solar Return are correspondingly different.

The p.c. 2010 Solar Return chart has an MC at 13 Leo, an Asc. at 6 Scorpio, the Moon at 16 Scorpio.

Relative to the p.c. Solar Return chart, I approach the chart somewhat like a Sidereal astrologer would, focusing on the chart angles and any natal/transiting planets found near those angles. Unlike Sidereal astrologers, and similarities to their practices starts and ends at that point. My approach is also unlike that of Tropical astrologers who tend to follow some variation of proscribed steps for interpreting a chart that may follow the practices of the 16th century French astrologer J. B. Morin or the more recent (1900's) French astrologer A. Volguine.

The reason why my approach is different is that I view the Solar Return as a cyclic chart and not a static chart that represents a spatial "return" to an orbital point --- although that does define when the chart has to be cast.

The "cyclic" approach is based on the practice of tracking the relationship between the advancing "progressed" MC and advancing daily Sun using a method called the "MC-Solar Cycle." This cycle is defined and marked by the MC position of subsequent Solar Returns in which the MC appears to advance some 90 degrees in zodiac measurement each year. This cycle starts at one's birth and continues throughout ones life. Because it is a continuous and regular cycle (as defined), it is marked by the return chart but actually continues each day starting at birth. Because of this any in-between day bounded by any two solar returns has its own definable MC and Ascendant angles. Because of this, the natal chart, the solar return chart and any of the daily charts are linked and related to each other.

This cyclic relatedness supports the natal chart being viewed as one's potential and basis of character, the solar return as being the yearly theme that can contribute to how a portion of one's potential might be actualized in the coming year, and the daily charts will reflect ones attitude, actions and experiences or situations that will occur on any given day. In all of these charts the every advancing angles provide the focus of interpretation and only those planets that are at the angles are considered.

Because only a few planets are typically angular in this p.c. Solar Return, the interpretation of the Solar Return is often quite clear and simple. THIS IS WHERE SEVERE DIFFERENCES OCCUR BETWEEN ME AND THE TROPICAL ASTROLOGERS. They have to find various ways to predict what and when might happen in the coming year --- this often involves using Secondary Progression charts, Lunar Returns, Transit charts, Eclipse charts, and anything else they believe might work. I view this approach as confusing, and leading to finding a chart, any chart, that might say what on wants to say or see.

My MC-Solar Cycle follows one cycle that expresses itself as a natal imprinting chart and solar return charts (where the Sun and MC define the continuing cycle) and daily charts which show the ever-advancing cycle as it exists on a given day. It's all one cycle in which I can take a whole-life view (the natal chart) or a focused period view (the solar return), or a specific-day view where I can see the nature of what one feels and thinks and acts upon.

**** Let us look at Franniees 2010 p.c. Solar Return.

** Natal Venus (16 Leo) is close to the S/R MC (13 Leo): Venus symbolism (love, beautification, relatedness, acquisition, adornment) will play a role in this year's plans and goals.
** Transiting Venus (2 Scorpio) is close to the S/R Asc. (6 Scorpio): Venus actions are to be expected (loving, dressing and presenting oneself well, being open and inviting and supportive of others, collecting clothes-jewelry- home accessories or painting/improving one's home is to be expected.
** With a "double Venus" situation (both natal and transiting) being angular, one can expect these Venus themes to dominate Franniee's year.

** Natal Neptune (9 Scorpio) is close to the Ascendant (6 Scorpio): One experiences dreams and expectations of a dramatic or fantasy nature.
** Transiting Neptune (26 Aquarius) is in the fourth house as defined by the IC angle at 13 Aquarius. While not a close aspect, it points to possibilities being seen at/near ones home or base of operations.
** Again, this is a "doubling up" of a planet, Neptune. Fantasy, dreams, fairy tale situations, drama (as well as deceit and things that don't work out) is a secondary focus for this year.

We need to consider natal Venus' house, the 4th.and its wide square to Neptune at/near the natal Descendant. This astrological pattern supports the above observations: 4th house Venus denotes one who likes their home and family traditions, tends to collect accessories and/or beautify their home, and are very emotional and appreciative of a nice environment and pleasant people. Neptune/Descendant suggests one who retains their ideals when in a relationship with another even though one's dreams and activities may involve wishing-deceit-promises-hopes that may or may not pan out.

This is all that needs to be said for Franniee's solar return. Now, you may ask about the when-what-why-how nature of the means by which these factors may be experienced. That falls into the cyclic area where we have to look at when the advancing angles and planet movements will be such that these two planets and the natal chart angles will be contacted at one time or another during the year. That is for another posting when I have the time.

At this point it would be appropriate to better understand Franniee's circumstances in terms of her lifestyle, work, family life, goals and plans. This would enable the search for appropriate dates in the coming year to be found that relate to the context of her life, the potential in her natal chart, so that dates and likely experiences could be identified ahead of time. This would enable her to determine how she chooses to use her symbols in the best way for her needs and not to fit some general book deliniation.

Franniee, you may choose to answer these questions here on the forum or privately via the message system or my e-mail, or to just ignore the question. In the latter case I will select a few dates for the coming months and just make some brief comments. Dave

dadsnook2000
06-12-2010, 12:55
It has been my observation that most astrologers follow a general series of steps in their approach to interpreting a Solar Return chart. While I do not follow this approach, it is a reasonable approach in terms of interpreting a given chart which is treated either as a stand-alone chart or as being related to the natal chart.

1) The Sun-Sun (they are conjunct by definition in a Solar Return chart) house position is assessed relative to the focus of one's actions and experiences for the year.

2) Aspects of the Sun position to other natal planets and transiting planets are assessed. Whatever the positions of natal or transiting planets aspecting the Sun, the natal chart's interpretation for those planets is taken into consideration.

3) The position of both the natal Moon and transiting Moon is noted. Natal Moon in its S/R position is assessed relative to how it is normally experienced within the natal chart's meanings. Transiting (or Solar Return) Moon is seen as how one is likely to respond to public activities and emotional-generating factors experienced in the coming year. The Moon can related to the public, one's feelings and needs, one's response mechanisms, how one is supportive or can be supported by others.

4) The combination of Sun and Moon factors is assessed in terms of how they might work together compared to how they normally work together over the course of your life.

5) Planets at/near angles are given strong consideration. How do they relate to each other? How do their natal counterparts relate, and how do they link into the transiting versions of themselves.

6) When looking at transiting/Solar Return planet placements, consider the houses they are in as well as the natal houses they were in. How will the natal house expression have to work in order to express itself through the Solar Return house placement.

7) Consider how any two natal planets relate to each other in their aspect connections or phase-angle connections. Does that fit with the transiting or solar return chart positions?

Now, some astrologers/author note 15 or 20 or more steps that one should follow. I'm not convinced that any rigidity of approach is needed other than that a procedure helps one to not overlook any important chart factor. My approach is quite free-form. For example, I did not note in Franniee's Solar Return chart that her Sun-Sun was in the 11th house of friendships. Further, her natal Moon in the solar return 12th house and transiting Moon in the first house together suggests a more open relatedness to others this year. Her natal Moon was in the natal sixth. We might assume that she will become more deeply involved or attracted to someone at her work place, or that she will improve or beautify a workplace or hobby room in her house, or take on a new interest or hobby based on some form of collectable object or decide to expand her outreach activities based on something she has long valued or developed in her personal life--all to help others, perhaps in a community way. Love and dreams can take so many forms. All of this is why I asked her to share the context of her life so that a more personalized approach could be taken with her chart. Astrology is both fascinating and complex, isn't it. Dave

franniee
06-12-2010, 23:22
Now, some astrologers/author note 15 or 20 or more steps that one should follow. I'm not convinced that any rigidity of approach is needed other than that a procedure helps one to not overlook any important chart factor. My approach is quite free-form. For example, I did note in Franniee's Solar Return chart that her Sun-Sun was in the 11th house of friendships. Further, her natal Moon in the solar return 12th house and transiting Moon in the first house together suggests a more open relatedness to others this year. Her natal Moon was in the natal sixth. We might assume that she will become more deeply involved or attracted to someone at her work place, or that she will improve or beautify a workplace or hobby room in her house, or take on a new interest or hobby based on some form of collectable object or decide to expand her outreach activities based on something she has long valued or developed in her personal life--all to help others, perhaps in a community way. Love and dreams can take so many forms. All of this is why I asked her to share the context of her life so that a more personalized approach could be taken with her chart. Astrology is both fascinating and complex, isn't it. Dave


Hi Dave,

Thank you for this! I am sorry to say I don't understand how you did the PRECESSION CORRECTED solar return chart. I looked at my program and I can't figure out how I would do that so I can follow along. I'll start googling to figure it out once I get my child on the bus. It may have been discussed here before and I missed it....so before I ask for help let me see what I can figure out.

Astrology is fascinating and you are right, so complex!!! I think that is what drew me to it initially so many years ago.

To answer your questions .... for work I do a bunch of things: I do the book keeping for my husband's business (a job I do out of necessity), I am writing a book (almost done), I want to begin a novel but need to finish the first book, I do readings (mostly by phone so I am home), I am a life coach/guide (also through phone consultations) - when I have a client I tutor Math and Science. I am active in a car racing club I belong to and am now the editor of their magazine. This will be a big job! I will take the reins in January.

Friendships are a challenge. I have some very old friends that are scattered around the world and they will be with me forever but they aren't geographically close. Making new friends is tricky because like you mentioned I have my values and ways. I long for companionship and I am friendly so I meet and make friends easily. There is always drama and fantasy. I never realized that neptune was influencing this area of my life.... this makes sense.... I get very disillusioned! I would like to free myself from this influence. I am way too tired of it all anymore! :rolleyes:

I do like a beautiful home and beautiful things. This home is a disappointment to me but I constantly seek to beautify it to make it more comfortable for us. It is lovely enough it just isn't me. I am not looking for a mansion or anything large I just want something with character and some more room. I do regret purchasing it. I probably regretted it the moment I went into contract but I didn't want to lose our deposit. It took me a long time to acclimate. We've made big changes to it and it is comfortable enough...

I am not a collector. Whatever I buy I need to use otherwise I let it go. I like clean lines, I like old things and tradition.

Franniee's circumstances in terms of her lifestyle, work, family life, goals and plans.

I am married and we have a 7yo daughter. They are the loves of my life! or are my life. :love: Her activities occupy my afternoons. I go to my husband's business once a week or so..... sometimes I let things pile up and then go for a week and clear it all out. :eek:

My personal goal is to finish the book and embark on the novel. I believe the book will be done within the month and then I have to shop it around. My other goal is to increase my reading and coaching business. It is a drop in the bucket at this point - so expansion would be wonderful. I like being busy and have rarely been too busy.....

Our plans long range, are to move into our dream home. For this to happen we need to have a couple of fruitful years and we need the economy to turn around. We've lost 10% of the value of our home during this down turn...... IF we could sell it!!! and that IF is BIG!!!! I am ever optimistic and I see this coming! I know it will. I also see our financial circumstances looking up! I hope I am not being a pollyanna.

I hope this is what you were looking for.....

Minderwiz
06-12-2010, 23:29
Note that my comments relate to your PRECESSION CORRECTED 2010 Solar Return. Because the Tropical Zodiac regresses along Earth's orbital path while a Sidereal Zodiac (or precession corrected Tropical Zodiac) Solar Return does not shift its relative position, the Tropical Solar Return occurs several hours prior to the other forms of return charts. In this period, the Earth rotates and the chart angles of the Solar Return are correspondingly different.

The p.c. 2010 Solar Return chart has an MC at 13 Leo, an Asc. at 6 Scorpio, the Moon at 16 Scorpio.

I've attached a copy of the chart, so that those following can see it and also make a comparison with the non-pc one (comparison here means simply note the differences, don't try to draw Astrological conclusions)


Because only a few planets are typically angular in this p.c. Solar Return, the interpretation of the Solar Return is often quite clear and simple. THIS IS WHERE SEVERE DIFFERENCES OCCUR BETWEEN ME AND THE TROPICAL ASTROLOGERS. They have to find various ways to predict what and when might happen in the coming year --- this often involves using Secondary Progression charts, Lunar Returns, Transit charts, Eclipse charts, and anything else they believe might work. I view this approach as confusing, and leading to finding a chart, any chart, that might say what on wants to say or see.


Dave's method does have the advantage of being both self contained and internally consistent and I agree that there is a big danger in simply trying to use Solar Return charts with charts drawn on other methods, as Dave indicates.

The problem though is not so much using those other methods but in not having a clear idea of how they interlock, what the hierarchy of analysis should be between those methods, consistency of application and clear understanding of how the prediction(s) are made.

Dave's method works and it does not require progressions, or directions or other return charts, so study it carefully. Other methods work too, there's obviously a great deal of debate amongst Astrologers about which is best and to be honest I don't think there's a clear answer to that.

dadsnook2000
07-12-2010, 01:05
There are many ways of creating a precession-corrected Solar Return chart.

** Some purchasable software programs, when you select a Solar Return to do, offer choices of tropical, sidereal or precession-corrected approaches.

** Some purchasable software programs will permit you to cast a tropical natal chart and then ask for a sidereal solar return. The result is a precession-corrected tropical chart.

** You can go to this site, http://www.expreso.co.cr/centaurs/riyal.html and download the RIYAL for WINDOWS software program. This program offers a great range of chart options and information. If you do, also choose to download and print out the 40+ pages of instructions so that you can set it up correctly. Or, contact me for guidance in configuring the software to do p.c. charts.

** You can divide "1" by "72" and multiply that value by ones age at the solar return date. Add this value in degrees-minutes-seconds to your natal Sun. This will be the position of the Sun that you will use for that year. Use your software to change the MC angle-degree until the resulting Sun position equals the new adjusted positional value.

** Those that only use on-line software may find that none of the above options are available to them. That is why serious students and all practicing astrologers have several software programs that they use. I have eight different programs that I can use. None of them do everything that I want, but all of them accomplish much of what I want.

** You can always manually calculate a Solar Return chart. I have chart forms for that purpose I believe -- I haven't used them in years. If you need one then e-mail me or PM me.

Dave

franniee
07-12-2010, 01:32
There are many ways of creating a precession-corrected Solar Return chart.


** You can divide "1" by "72" and multiply that value by ones age at the solar return date. Add this value in degrees-minutes-seconds to your natal Sun. This will be the position of the Sun that you will use for that year. Use your software to change the MC angle-degree until the resulting Sun position equals the new adjusted positional value.

awesome!!!! thank you Dave!

Thanks for the chart Minderwiz! :thumbsup:

Minderwiz
07-12-2010, 04:01
I read an interview with Rob Hand in which he was asked about precession correction for Transits! (the SR Solar Return is obviously a transit chart)

He said that he saw no reason at all why precession correction could not be done for transits and that he'd actually started using them, along with Tropical Transits. The effect being to extend the time period when the Transit was in effect (for an adult). As we will be coming to transits (eventually) in the predictions thread ; Do you use precession correction for transits?? (I don't but then it's not something I've thought of)

dadsnook2000
07-12-2010, 09:25
Within my system of using Solar Returns and the MC-Solar Cycle method of prediction, I recognize that the MC advances about 450 degrees from one S/R chart to the next S/R chart. The 450 degrees represents the full circle that the MC advances each day (360 degrees) plus the quarter-day movement at the end of the year (90 degrees). Anyone can cast two successive Solar Return charts and see that the MC has advanced a quarter circle (which is the same as five quarters of a circle).

If we divide this 450 degrees by 365.25 days (in a solar year) we get about 1.25 degrees per day. I have chosen Nov. 25, 2010 as one of several days that offer some significant chart characteristics. This date is 75 days after Franniee's S/R date so the MC should have advanced about (75 X 1.25) is 94 degrees. The software-calculated progressed MC for that date is 16 Scorpio, some 93 degrees from the S/R MC of 13 Leo.

You can create this chart using your birth location and the date of Nov. 25, 2010 at 11:34:06 AM. This will give you the transits for that date relative to the progressed angles. You can create a bi-wheel chart to see how your natal planets fall into the daily chart---just keep the daily chart's MC and Asc. angles. MC at 16 Scorpio. Ascendant at 22 Capricorn.

This date, Nov. 25, 2010 was chosen because:

** The progressed Asc. conjuncts natal MC:This date will likely be a time of actions taken and decisions made relative to improving your standing in the world, in your career or community, or within your family and personal circles (my book interpretation).

** The natal Asc. is at the daily chart's IC angle: The personality faces something new, or makes a basic change in attitude or in one's customary actions.

** Natal Mars is at the MC of this daily chart: Strong actions and/or debate occurs or is considered relative to career, goals and/or status.

** The transiting Moon is at the Descendant: Others seem to intrude upon you on this date/period with emotional demands for support.

** If we take the arc in degrees between the Asc. and the MC, and then extend it towards the Descendant area of the chart, we find a point 10 Virgo where natal Pluto (8 Virgo) resides. The day will likely have transformative pressures experienced by you. You may change your mind, cave in to the demands of others, or just feel a bit overwhelmed.

Now, for the above points we will play a bit of astrological hopscotch where we look at the natal placement of transiting planets and the transiting placement of natal planets to see which house areas of the chart they tie into. We have already noted the progressed daily Ascendant and the natal Ascendant above --- we will do the same for Mars, Moon and Pluto.

*** Transiting Mars is at 20 Sag on this date, which is within one degree of the midpoint between the Ascendant and MC of the daily chart. Others will make you angry or demand you physical help in some matter.

*** Natal Moon is at 10 Libra, conjunct Mercury. A lot of heartfelt talking will occur. Since natal Moon is near the 6th house cusp, this will involve either work, the support of others, or adjustments in your routine.

*** Transiting Pluto conjuncts transiting North Node in the 12th house, well above the daily Ascendant. Changes in associations, or the motives behind those changes will likely remain hidden for some reason. Secrets? Pluto is in the natal 5th house of love, creativity or the talked about (claimed) values of others.

So, Franniee, think back to Nov. 25th, which was Thanksgiving, and see how these statements fit the situation. We can nuance them to fit a family get-together, or the issues wherein a family didn't get together for some reason, or conflicts over who would help prepare for that day, or perhaps for something unrelated to Thanksgiving itself but instead related to an ongoing set of circumstances.

As always, you can comment here on this forum, or privately via e-mail or PM, or choose not to respond. What is most important here is to demonstrate the process that I use. The natal chart represents potential and ones character. The annual solar return represents some portions of our potential that we will likely be focused upon this year. The daily charts show our attitude, actions and the nature of the situations that we will deal with. We have to play astrological hopscotch with the planets and houses to get an idea of just what type of event occurred --- or we have to dialog with a subject to help them understand how these symbols and energies played out and how they might have been used differently. Dave

franniee
07-12-2010, 22:44
You can create this chart using your birth location and the date of Nov. 25, 2010 at 11:34:06 AM. This will give you the transits for that date relative to the progressed angles. You can create a bi-wheel chart to see how your natal planets fall into the daily chart---just keep the daily chart's MC and Asc. angles. MC at 16 Scorpio. Ascendant at 22 Capricorn.

I must have done something wrong because I can't get the chart..... am I casting the chart for the date 11/25 etc? Because if I do that then the Asc is aquarius the MC is in sag.... but that is just the transits for that day and has nothing to do with my birth..... :confused:

So did you progress the chart or whatever word you use for it looking for significant aspects and then stop on the date 11/25?

This date, Nov. 25, 2010 was chosen because:

** The progressed Asc. conjuncts natal MC:This date will likely be a time of actions taken and decisions made relative to improving your standing in the world, in your career or community, or within your family and personal circles (my book interpretation).

** The natal Asc. is at the daily chart's IC angle: The personality faces something new, or makes a basic change in attitude or in one's customary actions.

** Natal Mars is at the MC of this daily chart: Strong actions and/or debate occurs or is considered relative to career, goals and/or status.

** The transiting Moon is at the Descendant: Others seem to intrude upon you on this date/period with emotional demands for support.

** If we take the arc in degrees between the Asc. and the MC, and then extend it towards the Descendant area of the chart, we find a point 10 Virgo where natal Pluto (8 Virgo) resides. The day will likely have transformative pressures experienced by you. You may change your mind, cave in to the demands of others, or just feel a bit overwhelmed.

Now, for the above points we will play a bit of astrological hopscotch where we look at the natal placement of transiting planets and the transiting placement of natal planets to see which house areas of the chart they tie into. We have already noted the progressed daily Ascendant and the natal Ascendant above --- we will do the same for Mars, Moon and Pluto.

*** Transiting Mars is at 20 Sag on this date, which is within one degree of the midpoint between the Ascendant and MC of the daily chart. Others will make you angry or demand you physical help in some matter.

*** Natal Moon is at 10 Libra, conjunct Mercury. A lot of heartfelt talking will occur. Since natal Moon is near the 6th house cusp, this will involve either work, the support of others, or adjustments in your routine.

*** Transiting Pluto conjuncts transiting North Node in the 12th house, well above the daily Ascendant. Changes in associations, or the motives behind those changes will likely remain hidden for some reason. Secrets? Pluto is in the natal 5th house of love, creativity or the talked about (claimed) values of others.

So, Franniee, think back to Nov. 25th, which was Thanksgiving, and see how these statements fit the situation. We can nuance them to fit a family get-together, or the issues wherein a family didn't get together for some reason, or conflicts over who would help prepare for that day, or perhaps for something unrelated to Thanksgiving itself but instead related to an ongoing set of circumstances.

As always, you can comment here on this forum, or privately via e-mail or PM, or choose not to respond. What is most important here is to demonstrate the process that I use. The natal chart represents potential and ones character. The annual solar return represents some portions of our potential that we will likely be focused upon this year. The daily charts show our attitude, actions and the nature of the situations that we will deal with. We have to play astrological hopscotch with the planets and houses to get an idea of just what type of event occurred --- or we have to dialog with a subject to help them understand how these symbols and energies played out and how they might have been used differently. Dave

Thanks Dave. Let me try and answer it all ..... I don't mind being the guinea pig. :)

Thanksgiving was an extremely pleasant day. We hosted Thanksgiving for my parents and my sister and we had a truly wonderful time. Everyone was very relaxed, in a good mood, very social and happy. There was a lot of heartfelt talking. No one made me angry. YAY! Everyone contributed. Thanksgiving is usually stressful, full of drama and not so much fun - it is usually my least favorite holiday but this was a rare occasion and we all really enjoyed it! I was very happy about that! Very relaxed.

I do think I came to a conclusion about a few things around that time, though..... there has been a lot of drama with new friends and my other sister (who is out of state) and I came to a decision not to allow it to bother me anymore and to move on. This has been long in coming. I am hyper sensitive and that doesn't help. I see people's underlying motivations...... not always a good thing. Especially when they say one thing and mean an entirely different thing. I am trying to not let it get under my skin....


*** Transiting Pluto conjuncts transiting North Node in the 12th house, well above the daily Ascendant. Changes in associations, or the motives behind those changes will likely remain hidden for some reason. Secrets? Pluto is in the natal 5th house of love, creativity or the talked about (claimed) values of others.

Not sure what to make of this.... could this be the drama I just mentioned? All's well at home. I made a renewed effort to finish a project I began. An idea came to me around that time.... something I did do, but not in depth so last week and this week I have been working on it and creating new pages etc..... Not sure what the claimed values of others means..... but that could be the dramatics ..... I realized what that we don't have common values and I really had to let them go. It's not that I didn't see this from the beginning it's just I usually push that stuff aside and jump in anyway hoping that things will turn around - I don't think they ever have but that doesn't stop me from hoping. :laugh: Silly......

If I missed something please let me know...... is this what you were looking for?

dadsnook2000
09-12-2010, 03:50
For Franniee and all list members . . .

Excuse me for being presumptuous about this being an important post to read. Franniee's response (in the prior post) permits me to recognize and raise an important observation.

WHEN WE SEE A PLANET BEING ACTIVATED IN A CHART (IN SOME MANNER) WE PRESUME THAT IT WILL EXHIBIT ONE OR MORE OF ITS MANY SYMBOLIC EXPRESSIONS. Not necessarily so! There are some things that we need to know of and to discuss.

FIRST, consider the "Scale of Involvement & Intensity" which has to be kept in mind. Never heard of that? Well, let me pursue this.

** INVOLVEMENT with an activity or a project in terms of interaction with others is one factor. A group effort or shared experience is more likely to be reflected in one's chart(s).
** INTENSITY of emotional levels or of mental focus or physical challenge will more often than not be seen within one's chart.

SECOND, we have to keep in mind our daily routine and life goals. Permit me to expand on this.
** DAILY ROUTINE may not be "routine" but may include any typical activity. This relates to the Ascendant-Descendant axis in the chart. Consider how the daily routines of the following people may play out: Housewife. Explosives Demolition technician, writer of children's books, skyscraper steelworker, nursing home patient.
** LIFE GOALS can include personal, business, social, community goals which shape intent, training, planning and "follow through" with others. This feeds into the scale of involvement and intensity noted above.

THIRD, the construction of one's natal chart greatly influences points ONE and TWO above. Aspect patterns such as conjunctions, oppositions, squares and T-squares tend to place us as individuals into a more active or intense or involved or busy life. Chart patterns such as bowl, bucket, splay or bundle groupings also tend to shape the general nature of our experiences in life. The activation of any chart factor may be caused by transits, cycles, progressions, returns, etc.

FOURTH, the context of our life --- our whole life, our home life, our personal life, our work life, our community life, our family life --- directly shapes all of the previous considerations. Celebrities and public figures that we read about all seem to have dramatic charts that fit dramatic lives. They tend to use the hard aspect patterns and other factors in their charts. How much of this is the chart, how much is their personal will and intent, the decisions that they make.

"Regular" people may have similar patterns that permit similar dramatic events but the context of their lives is such that the scale of their experience and impact on others will be less.

***** Now, let us look at Franniee's response to her chart reading.

* I talked about her natal MC contacting her daily chart's Ascendant on Nov. 25th. (This just happened to be the first date where strong chart factors became evident following her solar return) This would represent presenting and involving herself and her skills as a cook and entertainment host with (among other things) her family. Franniee noted that she had her family at her house for a holiday dinner. It fits.

* I noted that her natal Asc. was at the daily chart's IC angle. She may have faced something new on that date. Franniee noted that this particular holiday was usually very stressful, but that this time everything went well and was very enjoyable. It fits. Franniee, it has also been my experience that the sheer amount of preparation work covering two/three days leads to a lot of stress on Thanksgiving Day.

* Natal Mars at the MC angle. Franniee noted the underlying tensions relative to her sister. This may fit.

* Transiting Moon at the Descendant. She tries not to let the hypocrisy of others get under her skin --- she is working on this. It fits.

* Natal Pluto was at the CD Point in the chart. This symbolic transformative effect of this pattern was indeed experienced as a fun and relaxing day with family and friends rather than as a stressful day. This was due to the very transformative efforts of Franniee herself; she adopted new attitudes toward how others act. It fits.

So, we are back to the start of this post. Involvement & Intensity. Context. Daily routine. Natal chart construction. All of this applies. This reading is an excellent one in that it illustrates the issues that we astrologers have to deal with relative to ourselves and our family, friends, community.

**How well do we first understand the context of a subject's life before we try to apply symbols in the chart? This is why dialog with the subject is so important a part of being an astrologer or in giving a reading.

** Do we dramatize the planet symbol we are focusing on? Do we know the scale of expression that is best applied to a reading? How do we articulate it so that is helpful and understandable rather than appearing to be confusing or even non-applicable. What is the scale or intensity to be applied?

So, I would like to see some discussion on these points so that we can all benefit from the work on my part and the willing candidness of Franniee's part to explore the use of Solar Returns. Dave

franniee
09-12-2010, 05:30
WHEN WE SEE A PLANET BEING ACTIVATED IN A CHART (IN SOME MANNER) WE PRESUME THAT IT WILL EXHIBIT ONE OR MORE OF ITS MANY SYMBOLIC EXPRESSIONS. Not necessarily so! There are some things that we need to know of and to discuss.

FIRST, consider the "Scale of Involvement & Intensity" which has to be kept in mind. Never heard of that? Well, let me pursue this.

** INVOLVEMENT with an activity or a project in terms of interaction with others is one factor. A group effort or shared experience is more likely to be reflected in one's chart(s).
** INTENSITY of emotional levels or of mental focus or physical challenge will more often than not be seen within one's chart.

SECOND, we have to keep in mind our daily routine and life goals. Permit me to expand on this.
** DAILY ROUTINE may not be "routine" but may include any typical activity. This relates to the Ascendant-Descendant axis in the chart. Consider how the daily routines of the following people may play out: Housewife. Explosives Demolition technician, writer of children's books, skyscraper steelworker, nursing home patient.
** LIFE GOALS can include personal, business, social, community goals which shape intent, training, planning and "follow through" with others. This feeds into the scale of involvement and intensity noted above.

THIRD, the construction of one's natal chart greatly influences points ONE and TWO above. Aspect patterns such as conjunctions, oppositions, squares and T-squares tend to place us as individuals into a more active or intense or involved or busy life. Chart patterns such as bowl, bucket, splay or bundle groupings also tend to shape the general nature of our experiences in life. The activation of any chart factor may be caused by transits, cycles, progressions, returns, etc.

FOURTH, the context of our life --- our whole life, our home life, our personal life, our work life, our community life, our family life --- directly shapes all of the previous considerations. Celebrities and public figures that we read about all seem to have dramatic charts that fit dramatic lives. They tend to use the hard aspect patterns and other factors in their charts. How much of this is the chart, how much is their personal will and intent, the decisions that they make.

"Regular" people may have similar patterns that permit similar dramatic events but the context of their lives is such that the scale of their experience and impact on others will be less.



This is precisely what confuses me so! Also when we have 2 aspects that are at odds with one another..... one is saying that a positive thing and the other a negative thing.... which one is going to win out? Which one has more import?

Another thing you mentioned is about will and intent. We read my chart AFTER the holiday. I had no idea that these aspects were on for that day BUT even if I did my will is strong and I believe I could override a seemingly negative aspect if necessary with a positive attitude and with my strong intent. It may not go as smoothly as it would on a day better aspected but still..... I think attitude plays a HUGE factor!

franniee
09-12-2010, 06:48
So if we were to look back to a time when I kept injuring myself should I expect to see Saturn on my Sun or something? Does that make sense or did I overly simplify it?

The last major injury was a severely torn hamstring that occurred on March 2nd 2009. I badly sprained my ankle and dislocated my knee in July of 2008 either the 26th or 27th. I can't remember.

I severely injured my back on October 9th 1997 I was in the back of a cab that was in an accident.

What aspect would indicate a death or a move or a new home or the birth of a child or a marriage?

I realize not every year is going to be monumental and not every aspect is going to be dramatic but I want to get a better handle on predicting and the only way I can see doing it is by going through big dates and seeing what was there.

dadsnook2000
09-12-2010, 08:13
There are various kinds of injuries.

A torn hamstring might involve Mars and Mercury. A back injury would relate to the Sun.

What causes the injury would also be involved. Mars is fighting, accidents, anger, cutting, burns, etc. Saturn would relate to restrictions and blockages. Coupled with Venus, Saturn could indicate stokes to the brain. Mercury and Pluto and Moon indicate stress and worry, leading to other things. The book, Combination of Stellar Influences gives two and three planet groupings for all of this physical stuff as well as everything else in life.

There seems to be no one signature for a disease, illness or accident/injury. It often is a result of attitude, habits, mental state, etc. When you do cyclic chats and find Mercury at the IC with Mars involved in some way, then you expect to see a cold or sinus problem. Tycho Bhrae, the Swedish astronomer who died in the 1600's was thought to have been poisoned --- his progressed chart for the banquet that he attended had double Neptunes (natal and transiting) on the angles.

It is all quite complex. Dave

franniee
09-12-2010, 08:36
There are various kinds of injuries.

A torn hamstring might involve Mars and Mercury. A back injury would relate to the Sun.

What causes the injury would also be involved. Mars is fighting, accidents, anger, cutting, burns, etc. Saturn would relate to restrictions and blockages. Coupled with Venus, Saturn could indicate stokes to the brain. Mercury and Pluto and Moon indicate stress and worry, leading to other things. The book, Combination of Stellar Influences gives two and three planet groupings for all of this physical stuff as well as everything else in life.

There seems to be no one signature for a disease, illness or accident/injury. It often is a result of attitude, habits, mental state, etc. When you do cyclic chats and find Mercury at the IC with Mars involved in some way, then you expect to see a cold or sinus problem. Tycho Bhrae, the Swedish astronomer who died in the 1600's was thought to have been poisoned --- his progressed chart for the banquet that he attended had double Neptunes (natal and transiting) on the angles.

It is all quite complex. Dave


oooooo excellent! Thank you! I love the Tycho story! Thanks

Minderwiz
10-12-2010, 08:15
Thanks for the exposition Dave, I've left it for nearly a day to see if anyone else wanted to raise issues or ask questions. I suspect that without some strong understanding of the basis of method and application, it's difficult to do that. I remember when you first began to explain your methods I had a great deal of difficulty getting a clear distinction between your daily charts and the transit chart for the same day, given that you are progressing the Sun between two solar returns - it's not a method that is easy to get first time around.

So perhaps it might help if I raise some 'novice' questions here, which might help others to follow your closely argued analysis.

Firstly how sensitive is your method to birth time 'errors'? We often get charts where the time of birth was either not recorded or we go on relatives recall. This might mean errors of several minutes (even where there is an 'official' record of the time) to a couple of hours. Would a difference of half an hour make any significant difference in the angles not only in the SR chart and natal chart but also in your daily charts?

Secondly - how do we understand the Ascendant and MC in your daily charts - Do they correspond to 'real' clock times or are they in some way 'just' symbolic of the day? (and 'just' is in inverted commas for the reason that a symbol can be highly important)

Thirdly - is it necessary to share your approach to Astrology and have your level of knowledge to use the method? I've tried precessing SR Charts and find that I can apply my own approach meaningfully to the chart and get results which point in the same direction as you, our examination of the Camilla charts being a good example.

OK, some observations:

Dave took the date of 25th November because it was the first noteworthy date (in terms of chart features) since the Solar Return in September. Oddly the day after 26th November, was an important date in terms of her profections - and the discrepency might (and I mean might) be simple error (in the statistical sense) that we get with dynamic data. On that date Franniee's profected MC entered the sign of Pisces and came under the benefic influence of Jupiter. The profected MC was moving through the natal 11th House of friends and also hopes and aspirations. So around this date we would expect Franniee to be quite optimistic not just in the modern sense of career expectations but in the wider sense of the 10th house - social status and one's role in life. It's also the house of the Mother - so all of these are areas which will appear to be 'bathed' in some optimism (I stress 'some'). The account of a friendly family meal seems to fit in with that, where Franniee is acting as hostess. So both methods seem to point to this being a happy time, which also provides corroboration to both.

On the issue of illness, accident and disease. Dave is quite right we would expect different significators, depending on the nature of the problem. It's always dangerous to try and be specific based on general information. Even something that appears clear, like a 'back' injury, may not be adequate for making a retrospective judgement. A 'back' injury, may be spinal, in which case we would expect Saturn to play a role, but it might related to damage to nerve damage or sensory loss (Mercury). Issues relating to disease illness, etc are one of the few areas where signs and house placements can have an equal role to play in diagnosis - thus the eighth, is also a significator of the spine and Libra can signify 'great heats in the back' and kidney issues.

There's no confirmation that Tycho Brahe was poisoned, let alone murdered - though there is evidence that he had much higher than expected levels of Mercury in his moustache. How that came there is the subject of some controversy and there's currently further work being done on his remains. If Mercury (the metal) was the cause of his death we would expect Mercury (the planet) to be prominently placed in an appropriate chart. Of course Neptune might be up to his old tricks of fogging the issue and indicating that the theory is a fantasy LOL.

dadsnook2000
10-12-2010, 11:55
An error in the natal chart of 12 minutes of time would move the MC about 3 degrees based on the MC moving one degree in about four minutes. That small discrepancy would reflect itself in the S/R chart as well as in the Progressed Daily Angles charts.

The daily chart's angles should be seen as "symbolic" as they are advanced at a rate that moves the MC some 450 degrees per year -- or one and a quarter circles (chart's 360 degree circle). This is the average rate of advance each day by progression. This is not to be confused with the fact that the MC, like the Sun, rotates across the meridian in a constant manner such that it appears to make a full rotation plus a degree-or-so each day --- this being in real time.

The only difference in the constant symbolic rate of daily advance is that it varies according to the equation of time variables. If you don't know what the Equation of Time is, then don't worry about it for now unless you intend to actually do these charts.

If you do intend to try these charts, then you should download the free RIYAL software http://www.expreso.co.cr/centaurs/riyal.html If you do download this software, e-mail me and I'll give you the check list to set it up for this form of charting. If you download this software, set it up, and can enter chart data, then you will get the same charts that I do.

You can use my interpretive methods or your own. I prefer simple direct meanings such as those found in the Combination of Stellar Influences by Ebertin. If you start with that approach you will learn basic astrology much faster. Once you are confident and get consistent results you can go on to try any method you want or just continue to refine and add to your own skills.

Once you calculate a natal chart in Riyal you will find that Solar Return charts are amazingly easy to call up, and once you have one you can obtain a yearly listing of daily angles and any "hits" of those angles to natal, solar or daily transits. You scan down the list and find dates when clusters of hits are noted for a date. You then use your regular software to give you a transit chart for that and mark the Riyal Angles in with a marker. There's your daily chart.

In Franniees case, the first date with stuff at the angles was Nov. 25th, Thanksgiving Day here in the U.S. I called the angles and planets as they would read in any astrological book. In a separate post I noted the problems with applying standard approaches without knowing the context of the subject's life. A planet tends to have very personal nuances in its expression in one's chart. Further, the context of one's life will shape the level and the intensity of that planet's expression. It is only those who live life large where the symbols play out strongly. We who read typical normal lives don't have terrible, catastrophic and transformative explosions occur in our life every time Pluto transits an angle. Scale and common sense has to prevail.
Dave

Minderwiz
10-12-2010, 21:18
Thanks for the response Dave. I raised the point on accurate birth times because as we know from posts in this forum, many people are unaware of their birth time - not all countries record them (England and Wales being a good example). It also becomes an issue with 'historical' births such as Tycho Brahe when even attempts to record a birth time might well produce inaccurate results because of the technology of time keeping. Much of medieval or even sixteenth/seventeenth century Astrologer's time was taken up by attempting to rectify birth times in some way. Rectification is not really something to go into here but any reading of Lilly or Morin shows the problems that were faced in terms of trying to establish birth times in those days. Lilly used something similar to a modern rectification using key dates in a person's life but did write about other methods and their efficacy.

Dave raises some very good points on the issue of planets that are 'activated' in a chart seemingly having no effect in 'real' life. This is an issue that has 'haunted' Astrology throughout its history. Context, involvement and intensity are good words to bear in mind when you are interpreting a chart.

There are other possible issues to consider as well. Much before the nineteenth century Astrologers worked for people who could afford them and those tended to be the rich and powerful, especially for those Astrologers who were important enough to write books and influence students of Astrology. The rich and powerful are much more likely to lead lives in which major events take place at 'regular' intervals.

In the present time, many influential Astrologers work with people who have psychological problems or are in some way psychologically disturbed. Just like the rich and powerful they do not lead 'typical' lives, yet some of the interpretations of the outer planets are based on their problems, just as some of the traditional interpretations were based on the rich and powerful. Dave is very right to counsel against some of the heavy interpretations given to Pluto transits (which often become self fulfilling because of the dread of them happening, rather than any real event that actually happens).

Lilly has a phrase about tempering Art with reason and this I think sums up Dave's message.

One other reason for planets seemingly not having an actutal effect is that Astrology, like most things is not subject to simple cause and effect.

Most events have a whole series of causes. Scientists make reference to necessary and sufficient causes - necessary causes must be in place for an event to happen but do not guarantee that the event will occur. Sufficient causes produce the expected event. So for an event to occur, we may need a complex of necessary causes in order to tip into sufficient cause for the event to manifest. In Astrological terms Mars at an angle may be a necessary cause for an event but may not be sufficient on it's own or even in combination with one or more other planets to produce the event. Some Astrologers operate on a rule of 3, requiring at least 3 indicators of an event happening before committing to a prediction but this is at best a rule of thumb rather than a hard and fast feature of Astrology.

This approach to multiple causes can be modified to allow for a hierarchy - some Astrologers will claim that transits won't work unless there are similar indicators from SR charts or from profections or primary directions, or other longer term method. Again I'm not aware of any 'proof' of this but it's something that chart readers should bear in mind.

I'm going to pick up the thread on predictions to look at a couple of long term methods - planetary periods an primary directions and the medium term method of profections. I've written about them before, so some of the posts will simply be a cross reference to those posts.

franniee
11-12-2010, 00:43
I thought things were a little more black and white but I am finding it is more intuitive than I figured.

The back injury was a spinal injury and it was caused by an accident where my spine got compressed. So if I were to look back on that day I would expect to see a Saturn aspect somewhere along the line? The thing is Saturn is such a slow mover that the window of opportunity for the accident, should have been wide. Right?

Could I have been forewarned? I wonder.....the accident was very random. I was in the back of a taxi cab that hit a metal plate on the road and bucked - the car literally almost flipped tail over head! I hit the roof of the backseat and among other injuries injured my lower spine. This was completely random, this was my usual route home - I would hail a cab and go up 10th avenue. The driver wasn't driving out of control (hard to believe but true ;) ). The weather was fine. There was no indication that something bad was coming - so I wonder if I could have been forewarned - not because I regret anything just because I want to understand.

There are big points that I can look back on and name a date and sometimes a time and I would love to see if I can see a pattern with specific aspects etc..... I am curious to find links. I do understand that hindsight will be 20:20 and predicting forward - not so much but I do believe in fate so I believe I should be able to see patterns. What do you think?

Since Saturn is strong in my chart, as it is, I would bet that it would be involved during significant times in my life. I am generally well but I have had a lot of structural injuries, I bet that is all about Saturn. Saturn/MC/Jupiter conjunction is a strong player in my chart and so is the Moon/Merc/Mars conjunction. Right?

Further, the context of one's life will shape the level and the intensity of that planet's expression. It is only those who live life large where the symbols play out strongly. We who read typical normal lives don't have terrible, catastrophic and transformative explosions occur in our life every time Pluto transits an angle. Scale and common sense has to prevail.

I do understand this. Truly I do. I can't say I live life large all of the time but there have been moments. :D Dave picked November 25th as a day that had some important aspects. The thing is that day was an easy, warm, happy day. Nothing sparky. Yes everything played out as it should have and that is cool but I wonder if we picked a day that had an explosion or something more polar what we would see?

For instance..... my 40th birthday.....HUGE Explosions!

It is a lot to understand. I know..... but I am trying. :) Thank you both for being such wonderful teachers!!!!

Gotta run I am having another astrological reading. My husband thinks I am insane. :laugh: He's right. But I want to understand and sitting with this guy may help me gather more info.

Minderwiz
11-12-2010, 02:22
I thought things were a little more black and white but I am finding it is more intuitive than I figured.

Well I'd say more 'forensic' it's assembling a case based on examining and weighing the evidence and that evidence may point in different directions, so in the end it's a balance of probabilities. Applying the method, evaluating your experience and learning from examples helps produce an understanding that can work on a sub-conscious basis - intuition if you like.



The back injury was a spinal injury and it was caused by an accident where my spine got compressed. So if I were to look back on that day I would expect to see a Saturn aspect somewhere along the line? The thing is Saturn is such a slow mover that the window of opportunity for the accident, should have been wide. Right?

Well, you are assuming there that it's Saturn's movement that is the trigger and that we are talking about secondary movement (through the zodiac) - it could be transiting Mars that aspected natal Saturn that was the trigger, or the indicated by a direction

However it is likely to be more complex than that - remember simple causes are very rarely translated into events, there's more likely to be several Astrological significators involved and the actual trigger for the specific event might seem trivial but it's that last 'straw' so to speak. So there might have been a Primary Direction pointing to an accident during that period, plus a combination of profections/solar arcs/secondary progressions/solar returns (take your choice) that built up to indicate that event at approximately that time.

There's also a presumption on your part that we have to be talking about a car accident on a specific date that results in spinal damage - but the indication might be less precise - simply a violent accident over a limited time period and there might have been sevral possible triggers the one that actually fired determining the nature of the event.

This means that you might be aware in advance of a possible risk of accident over a particular period and you might spend your time avoiding Mars transits of Saturn, only to find that it was a Moon to Saturn transit which was the trigger.

Some Astrologers claim to be able to be very precise all the time but to be honest I don't believe them. John Frawley had a very good run predicting football results which earned him quite a bit of fame. But eventually his run broke down. His methods may have raised the prediction to a probability well beyond pure chance but I think there's always a margin of error.

However speculation here won't help or provide a good learning experience as there are many other possible indicators which might have built up.


Perhaps you could volunteer to be a guinea pig again and we can look at some of your Planetary Periods and Primary Directions for the periods in question.


Since Saturn is strong in my chart, as it is, I would bet that it would be involved during significant times in my life. I am generally well but I have had a lot of structural injuries, I bet that is all about Saturn. Saturn/MC/Jupiter conjunction is a strong player in my chart and so is the Moon/Merc/Mars conjunction. Right?

Well Saturn is strong in your chart but we would want to see something more particular than that, otherwise your life would be a series of 'structural' accidents on a daily basis.

Again, looking at some of the planetary periods, directions and profections will help, And I'm certainly not ruling out Solar Return and Dave's methods as identifying such periods (or indeed other techniques).

franniee
11-12-2010, 03:40
Thanks Minderwiz.

I know I am trying to simplify it way more than it can be. ;) I do understand this - it's kind of how my left brain works.

I just got back from my appt and he did his predictions using a progressed chart with transits. I got to ask a bunch of questions. I am putting the pieces of this puzzle together - it's just that it is a HUGE puzzle with tiny tiny pieces. :laugh:

He actually attributed the taxi accident to a Uranus moon direct conjunction. He seemed to really concentrate on Uranus with the accidents. I guess I can understand that. He said that at that moment of the accident transiting mars was squaring pluto and saturn opposing mars at the same degree of my mars 16degrees. Of course this was a very quick look and he said he would have preferred a little more time to look at it very carefully but this was for me to just get an idea. Very interesting.... so like you guys said it is far more complex than I was making it.

Another factor that should be brought up is the astrologer. How they see the chart. What is their outlook on life etc. The first person who read my chart a couple of weeks ago had a very optimistic approach. This fellow today is sober. That colors the way they both interpret the chart - in my opinion. I understand they both used different techniques but leave that be for a moment. He is dark. Physically as well as emotionally. That is why I hesitated going back to him. I prefer to view the world from light..... when all is DARK and bleak I will find that ray of light as tiny as it may be and move toward it until I get into it! We discussed the earlier reading and he said she was being overly optimistic. Of course he would say that in part it's his disposition. He saw the transit that she probably focused on and while he mentioned it earlier, as well, he didn't paint a rosy picture.





BTW I will be a guinea pig anytime you guys want. :)

Minderwiz
11-12-2010, 04:33
Yes modern Astrologers will tend to attribute accidents to Uranus because the appear to be 'sudden' add in Mars for violent and you get the symbolism. As I operate from a traditional approach I can't use that LOL. Mutual application would be the traditional definition of sudden.

You are quite right, the temperament of the Astrologer influences the reading. Now I keep mentioning that Dave and I approach Astrology from different directions but we do tend to have a similar temperament in terms of our approach, which I think is a Saturnine one. We both like structures, analysis, following our own rules, using Astrological authorities and being careful in our delineations. I suspect that we both see Mercury as the ruler of Astrology, not that mad and unpredictable scientist Uranus. Mercury is the planet of reason, careful communication and mathematics. :)

OK, I'll start the next leg of the predictions thread tomorrow.