PDA

View Full Version : Grand Cross


Kibeth
10-12-2010, 19:57
Hi all,

The Grand Cross has fascinated me for a long time now. I don't know anyone with this in their chart yet, but I do know a forum-er with the GC if you include the Ascendant. I'd like everyone to share their ideas and will include her chart (or Himmler's) for study if we get responses.

According to Wikipedia:

In astrology, a Grand Cross is said to occur when four planets are all separated from each other by Square aspects (90 degrees apart). A Grand Cross can also be viewed as two oppositions (180 degrees apart) separated from each other by a square. In a Grand Cross, there is one planet in each astrological element (fire, earth, air and water) but all the planets are in signs of the same modality or quality.

1) Can the Grand Cross include the Ascendant, or is this strictly "planets only"?

On one hand, the Ascendant is simply a point in the sky, that if we include the Asc we should include the North Node, South Node, and everything else which makes for a complicated chart.

On the other hand the Asc is, in the view of traditional astrology, more important than the Sun itself. I'm too split on this issue.

What do you think?

2) What are traditional views of this configuration? Heroes? Villains? Heinrich Himmler has this in his chart.

Before you cry out villain! I've actually questioned his morality for a while in a history book years ago.

3) The Grand Cross is a pretty rare. Do you know anyone's charts with the GC? What was he or she (or you) like? We could study his or her chart.

dadsnook2000
10-12-2010, 21:29
First of all, the Ascendant is not a point in the sky that is like other points in the sky such as the Moon's Nodes or Part of Fortune, etc. The Ascendant represents a point on the Earth where the eastern meridian (a great circle that connects the poles and passes through the Equator) intersects the zodiac plane or celestial equator which is the plane defined by the orbit of the Earth around the Sun. The Lunar Nodes define the Moon's own Aries-Libra points in the Draconic zodiac relative to the Earths orbital plane. There are two very different measuring references at work here.

In my opinion, the inclusion of the Ascendant as part of a grand-cross pattern is not strictly proper. If you move to another location, then you will lose your grand cross. Anyone born at the same time as you, but in another location, will have a grand cross consisting of planets. But, if the Ascendant is used, only those having the same birth time and general location will have a grand cross that includes the Ascendant.

Plus, if you do use the Ascendant, your interpretive approach has to change relative to having a planet there instead of the Ascendant. The Ascendant has an entirely different functional expression and purpose.

The Sun and the Ascendant are not in competition with each others relative to importance. They are what they are. Either may have different or equal value in a chart, but both are different animals. THE ASCENDANT is a personal expression, contributes to ones character, defines how one might act and when they might act (by transits to it). THE SUN both integrates and vitalizes other planets it aspects and indicates our will and intensity of life. Either can playing varying roles in each of our charts, and may even contribute to the success we have in living up to our charts.

I've seen charts with grand crosses many times. In general, these people are either very driven and much involved in every aspect of their life (they must drink a lot of coffee to stay so active), or they bounce around thru life like ping-pong balls in the wind, accomplish little that takes perseverance, and may turn out to be highly frustrated and even destructive to those around them.

My opinions. Dave

Minderwiz
10-12-2010, 21:58
Well, allowing for points to be used I have a compound one - Moon, opposed to Saturn and square Mercury and Venus, making up three sides, the fourth corner would be the North Node. This clearly implies that the South Node adds to the complex and as Saturn is conjunct the Ascendant and the Moon conjunct the Descendant, that adds a further dimension! The orbs involved are Moon, Mercury, Saturn all partile (same degree) - North Node and Ascendant 2,5 degrees, Moon and Mercury and Saturn are in an applying to the Ascendant and North/South Nodes. Saturn/Ascendant is in Fire, Moon in Air, Mercury/Venus/South Node in Water and North Node in Earth.

Now should we allow this? - one of the points of your question. The idea of the Grand Cross is a modern one. I'm guessing around the last 50/60 years at most and it seems to be the case that those who started using it saw it as planets only, no points. So on their reasoning I only have a T square (Saturn/Moon/Mercury+Venus). Incidentally my nodes are angular 10th to 4th.

My view would be that one should not use the Grand Cross (or any planetary pattern other than a stelium) in a traditional approach. So even if you think the Ascendant is more important than the Sun, you don't use it in this way. Oddly the nodes are the only points that have Exaltations and therefore carry essential dignity but I still would not want to include them either.

The key issue here comes down to does the planetary pattern add anything at all to the chart interpretation? I stress the pattern, not the planets (and points if you use them) that compose it, as these would be used anyway. I don't see any necessity for modern Astrologers to answer 'yes' to this question but obviously if you are applying traditional methods the answer must be no. A third possibility is that you take a traditional view of Astrology but are quite willing to introduce methods that work within that approach. For example I've tried using precessed Solar Returns and still cast them along with Tropical Returns. In that case you might be willing to answer 'yes' but you should be sure that what information the patterns reveal is such that it cannot be observed by other means.

PS If you disagree my SS friends will be round to see you soon ;-)

Minderwiz
10-12-2010, 22:27
I didn't really go into your point on the relative importance of Ascendant and Sun but I don't disagree with anything Dave says. Both He and I don't like the 'Sun sign' approach that often pervades Astrology and detracts from a thorough understanding of the fundamentals.

The Ascendant, its sign and ruler in the tradition signifies you - your body, mind and spirit (though the latter two can be delineated in more detail from Mercury and the Moon).

The Sun says more about your manners - the way you go about your life, especially in relation to your career, honours and social position and your treatment of others in relation to those but the Sun is NOT you.

I'd add a rider to that, as I fully agree with Dave's point about the variety of roles it can play. My Ascendant lies in Leo, so the Sun is my Ascendant ruler - this is what a traditional Astrologer would describe as an 'accident' - that is the Sun is not always as a matter of its very essence, the ruler of the Ascendant. It may be in some charts. An accident is something that does not have to happen, and should not be seen in it's narrower modern meaning of something unpleasant happening which harms the body.

For others, the Sun's placement in the chart and the House with Leo on the cusp will yield important information, so will it's aspects (if any) and the relationship of Moon and other planets in terms of their cycles relative to the Sun.

Returning to the Grand Cross (and other patterns) - I really don't understand how a pattern can have meaning divorced from the planets that comprise it. Allowing the North Node for argument's sake would Dave say that I would exhibit exactly the same behaviour if the three planets were, Mars, Pluto and Jupiter (same signs, same degrees and same houses)?

Kibeth
10-12-2010, 23:53
A chance to dissect the Minderwiz's birth chart? I'm up for it!
Unfortunately we're missing the birthtime. If you're a Libra-Leo-rising or Scorpio-Leo-rising, you should be born anytime between midnight to the wee hours.

I've seen charts with grand crosses many times. In general, these people are either very driven and much involved in every aspect of their life (they must drink a lot of coffee to stay so active), or they bounce around thru life like ping-pong balls in the wind, accomplish little that takes perseverance, and may turn out to be highly frustrated and even destructive to those around them.

What kind of GCs do these people have? There are three kinds you know? The Mutable, Fixed and Cardinal. It's certainly news to me the GC is only a modern concept possibly a mere 50 years old. I seriously doubt the ancients could have let such an obvious pattern in the stars miss them, what with their advanced geometrical knowledge and the fact they didn't miss the Northern Cross.

Lets have Minderwiz provide his chart. Or anyone with this aspect volunteer.

Minderwiz
11-12-2010, 02:43
It's certainly news to me the GC is only a modern concept possibly a mere 50 years old. I seriously doubt the ancients could have let such an obvious pattern in the stars miss them, what with their advanced geometrical knowledge and the fact they didn't miss the Northern Cross. aspect volunteer.

Well the Northern Cross is not a planetary pattern it's an asterism. Moreover it doesn't have any Astrological significance as such (as opposed to the individual stars comprising it) that I've come across. Just because it's up there doesn't mean you have to use it :)

Now I'd guess that it's not easy to get a Grand Cross using the traditional planets - Sun, Mercury and Venus can never achieve a square aspect between them So we have Moon, Mars Jupiter and Saturn plus one of the other 3 that could form such a pattern. The modern Astrologer has two more planets plus the dwarves, and many are willing to include asteroids and Kuiper Belt objects. Hence Dave's comment about how common they are.

VenusRising
11-12-2010, 02:51
could someone commment on Grand Cross composites. I cannot seem to find any information on internet about grand cross composites. but i do told that they are most stressful relationships.

dadsnook2000
11-12-2010, 10:42
One of the more newsworthy people that we currently hear about is the Australian born Julian Assange, founder of Wikileak and perpetrator of massive documentation files of the US government and other nations.

His Grand Cross pattern is made up of Paran Squares. These are planets at the angles of the natal chart in which the angles are not themselves square to each other. These types of squares are often far more powerful than regular squares which are not at angles.

In Julian Assanges case, the MC is at 26 Leo, the IC at 26 Aquarius. The Ascendant is at 8 Sag, the Descendant at 8 Gemini. Near these angles we find Mercury at 25 Leo, Mars at 21 Aquarius, Neptune at 0 Sag. and Saturn at 3 Gemini.

As always, before we dissect any planetary pattern in a chart we FIRST look at the Sun, Moon, Asc. and MC individually and relative to each other.

** SUN is at 29 Cancer, at the cusp of the 9th house, and broadly conjunct the MOON at 8 Leo in the 9th. The Sun position would suggest one who is quite quite outward in nature and appreciative of candidness and truth in others. MOON in the 9th suggests that you impress others with your openness and truthfulness. (Notice the polarity outward and inward with the Sun and Moon in this position) In terms of their phase relationship, the Moon has a new-moon phase relationship with the Sun -- Assange will be spontaneous, seeking attention, liking the limelight, a showman at heart.

The MC has Mercury within a degree. Communication, his views on the world and its communications will be involved in his goals and personal direction. With Mars at the IC, in opposition, he would find antagonists everywhere to argue with.

Neptune, just above the Asc., is opposite Saturn, just below the Descendant. Neptune will suggest a visionary, a dreamer with his own ideas about about value of his private nature (12th house) and will have to play out against Saturn in the 6th/7th -- the limitations of others and how they disappoint him. This Neptune-opp-Saturn can be a bridge builder pattern. Here he uses it in a somewhat negative way to serve his personal views, he applies his vision on others to limit their options and to serve his own.

We can take the more "negative" view of these patterns because 1) they are squares and they are hard to assimilate, 2) there are four squares and two oppositions in this whole pattern (not counting the Asc and MC points), 3) the Mercury-versus-Mars pattern suggest strife and arguments, and 4) the Saturn-versus-Neptune pattern has to deal with "reality versus illusion." My mentor, Robert Pelletier (Planets in Houses, Planets in Aspect) used to say that Saturn was the illusion of reality and that Neptune was the reality of illusion. They are a tough pair to reconcile for many people. I know because I have this pattern in my chart.

With all of that said and done, we can look at the squares. Neptune square Mercury can point to a struggle to sort out ideas and what words mean. Neptune square Mars can avoid physical fights and choose fights within the mind. Saturn square Mercury can cause some trouble in organizing plans and following a strategy. Saturn square Mars is a sort of "stop versus go" situation--when do you go, when do you stop, why would you do either?

All that said, you just put it all together. He acts to gain attention, has an underdog view of life, likes to argue or think about dislikes associated with others but doesn't want to directly fight anyone. He has both a vision as well as an unclear strategy about achieving his vision, so he starts things off and then sees what happens. Persistence is not an up-front quality of his, as he often stops one project and starts another. He leaves a lot undone, and depends upon others to follow up on what he started.

If you want, you can add in the sign meanings (which I don't bother with much). The Sag Ascendant will lend him a brusqueness and self-driven view of what direction one should head in. Doing, going, seeing, talking is the only way to live. The Leo MC will give him a form of confident attitude about his goals on the outside. This will be countered by the Mercury-Mars pair that counters the outer confidence. He may be said to have a "sneaky" approach to how he get his goals fulfilled.

So, that is one way to look at a Grand Cross pattern. Others may approach it in other ways. As anyone can see, the complexities are such that it takes awhile to determine just how the patterns may express themselves. The choice of taking the negative side of Saturn-Neptune was determined by the easier-to-understand Mercury-Mars pattern and the Sag-and-Leo angles. While Sag is mutable, I've found that Sag isn't flexible in many ways. Leo is Leo, just salute and say "yes." Of, course, Mars in Aquarius is easy to sterotype --- fight for others. And Saturn in Gemini is just uncomfortable with life.

So, what do you think? Dave

Minderwiz
11-12-2010, 22:11
Dave, I've not got Assange's natal details so I'll confine my comments to your approach to the analysis.

Firstly, your use of parans is interesting in this context - I suppose it begs the question as to whether it can still be a Grand Cross with paran squares used but these aspects in themselves are a perfectly legitimate part of the chart analysis and can indeed yield useful information.

Secondly, Yes, we would need to look at other factors first - in my case an assessment of temperament and manners but these use Ascendant, Moon and Sun, so I'm right there with you on this point.

I'll leave aside the use of Neptune - you use it and it's perfectly legitimate to do so, I don't use it and that's also legitimate - but your approach to the analysis is here is probably similar to what I would do - I would probably be looking at specific areas of life and woud look at the aspects themselves, (in pairs first of all) in terms of how they colour that area. I don't take a psychological view, but I would then go on to consider as and when necessary the interplay of those pairs, as of course life is not compartmentalised and indeed the chart shows the interconnections through aspects between the houses - much more clearly seen if you use whole sign houses.

What I would not do, is consider the pattern as such, divorced from the planets - thus I would not be in the slightest bit interested in whether the pattern was in Cardinal, Fixed or Mutable signs. I would be interested in whether the aspects came from Angular, Succeedent or Cadent Houses.

From my reading of your analysis, you too have not treated the pattern as an entity separate from the planets, so we again would seem to be similar in that respect, if not in the interpretation of the aspects themselves.

Your comments on the possible use of signs, reflect the modern usage and I know (because you reaffirmed it) that you have grave misgivings over sign meanings - you have included them here for those that still use them - and many do.

I too have grave misgivings about the modern meanings - and I've written about that elsewhere. I would simply point out here that:

Sagittarius is an Autumnal sign - and one where we are changing into Winter. There will be a Melancholy streak (Autumn is 'earthy') which accounts for your perceived lack of flexibility - we also forget that Jupiter's sign rulerships are Autumn/Winter he is not quite the sunny character that popular Astrology would have us believe - being benefic does not mean he has to be Jolly Santa all the time. What really matters though is the condition of Jupiter, any planets in the first, and aspects to the Ascendant in making a judgement about it.

Assange has a dirurnal birth, which gives Saturn rulership of the Air Triplicity (Mercury has it by night) So Saturn is a little more at home in Gemini, than a modern view would take. Not brimming with dignity but not bereft of it either.

Again the Leo MC is dependent on the Sun's condition and that is not good. We are more likely to see the arrogant, proud, disdainful, domineering expression (though OF COURSE other factor may more than counterbalance)

It appears from your description that Mercury is at or near its stationary point and will shortly be turning retrograde (I think you would have mentioned it, had it already changed direction) So a slow and ponderous Mercury is in opposition to Mars.

Thanks for your thoughts, Very interesting as always

Kibeth
11-12-2010, 22:12
@ Dave
Julian Assange is indeed a fascinating person. But he hasn't got a GC in his chart so maybe split a thread for him? Sorry. I'll analyze him if you like on a separate thread.

@ Minderwiz
We have the Eastern cultures like Japan and China naming Mars the "Fire Star" and Venus the "Gold Star", and they still do. The Northern Cross is composed of "stars". So they're all celestial bodies. I won't go as far as to agree with the Old View that the Sun orbits the Earth though.

If asteroids are to be included this woman's chart would have TWO Grand Crosses.
http://i55.tinypic.com/10rjsw1.jpg

@ VenusRising
What is a Grand Cross composite? Perhaps Dave or Minderwiz can point in the right direction?

Minderwiz
11-12-2010, 22:45
Kibeth - the word 'planet' comes from the Greek for 'wanderer' - it's a 'wandering star' - so yes in Astrological terms the planets are 'stars' however in the main it's the wanderers that count in Astrology, simply because they move. Some of the fixed stars have also been given meaning - around 50 or so - but whilst that seems are lot, it is microscopic relative to the number of stars in the sky,

The Northern Cross can be seen in the sky (well depending on where you live and the time of year) but a Grand Cross cannot. It's impossible to go outside and look up in the sky and point one out. The reason for this is obvious with a moment's thought.

Such patterns are not asterisms, they are the result of drawing actual lines on a chart. Now humans work by pattern recognition and we do like to impose patterns on what we see - the Rorscach tests support that view. But not all patterns have to have meanings.

If Asteroids and points were allowed the situation at the moment is one of multiple Grand Crosses!!! cast a chart and look. My points here are that:

The more objects you allow, the more likely it becomes for a Grand Cross to be common - so what does it show besides the obvious aspects?

The planets that compose it cannot be ignored and indeed Mark Edmund Jones made that same point in his 1974 book on Aspect patterns. At some point we might well have Pluto, Uranus, Neptune and Chiron forming such a pattern so everyone on Earth born in a period of a year or so will have one in their charts (assuming there's a human race left by then) - does that make them a 'special feature' worthy of note?

One which comprises Moon, Mercury, Mars and Jupiter is fleeting, for only an hour or so - Very few people will have it in their charts - are the two Grand Crosses to be treated in the same fashion? (well I'm sure that some would take the former as a sign of the second coming or Armageddon or similar, so I suppose it would be worthy of note LOL)

Does the pattern impose a greater reality on the aspects? I can't prove that it does not, nor I think can anyone prove that it does. However if you start to treat the pattern as being the important thing and the aspects as having less importance, then IMHO you are putting the Astrocart before the Astrohorse (Pegasus??) LOL

Look to the fundamentals first - a Grand Cross, in itself,may or may not be an interesting secondary or tertiary feature the aspects between the planets may well be of primary importance

dadsnook2000
12-12-2010, 09:10
Four decades of chart work have shown, many times over, that paran-squares and oppositions constitute a powerful grand cross issue for the subject. In this case, it is even more powerful as it is aligned with the chart's powerpoints--the angles. While 90 degree squares are strong aspects to consider, the paran squares are far more potent as they, by definition, have to involve the chart angles.

As for asteroids comprising or being part of grand crosses, you have to realize that some 1400 significant asteroids spread around the zodiac will probably create a hundred or more grand crosses exact with 20 seconds of arc. It is just too much to deal with. If you just take angular asteroids, you'll still have too much to deal with. Martha Lang Wescott, the most diligent authority on asteroids, was a student of mine for several years. I know a bit about them but their use has to be a cautious one, keeping their role and impact in the proper perspective.

I thank you for your offer to interpret Assange's chart, but I've learned that Grand Cross subjects have so much happening on a periodic basis that following their life path is tiring. They wouldn't pay much attention to what was said or offered anyways, especially this poor soul. He has his own vision and his own devils to deal with. I already understand enough about him to satisfy any curiosity I might have. Dave

Kibeth
12-12-2010, 11:54
What I WOULD have liked to understand is what on Assange's chart makes him intellectually superior to 99% of the world (he's a a hacker). The government systems he's invaded are undoubtedly one of the best protected in the world. And what makes him an ethical one (most hackers will destroy the systems they invade without a second thought, but not Assange). He is a maverick for sure. What makes him move to the beat of a different drum from others? If his chart shows signs of insanity (afflicted Saturn for instance)? He's a fascinating character and nowhere near repulsive, personally.

dadsnook2000
12-12-2010, 12:58
I don't see him as intellectually superior in any way. His Mercury-MC opposite Mars-IC gives him a combination of argumentiveness, fear, angry thoughts, a sense of being subject to attack or disagreement. Along with this is Neptune-Ascendant opposite Saturn-Descendant, giving him a personal vision (Asc.-Nep) that had to be parsed relative to the reality of other's views. Was he right, were they right?

Then, you have these planets all in paran-square with each other and involve the angles. We have other concerns with this chart as well. Sun & Moon sextile and trine the horizontal axis --- his core personality is involved with how he reconciles his vision and his sense of the world's social structure (Desc. axis). With these chart constructs, he is not mentally superior, he is just another person with some really deep complexes that have to dealt with on a moment by moment basis. Distrust, fear, anger, deciet, limitations, communication to others and understanding of them. And all of this is a swirl of possibilities --- I don't see him getting personally involved in this.

Is he a hacker? Perhaps, to some extent. He didn't steal much of what is on Wikileaks. Others did. Others are the hackers or the thieves of records and information who pass it on to Wikeleaks. He is a facilitator by virtue of providing a technology framework which others can use and which he doesn't have to be personally involved moment by moment. He is seen as being the bad guy --- perhaps he is, but I see him as a facilitator with mischief on his mind and a reluctance to be personally, directly involved. I see him as being distant, at arms length to getting his fingers dirty.

Ethical. I don't think so. Neptune-Saturn square Mars point to depression, emotional control lacking in terms of how one acts, how one thinks. The vertical axis is in fixed signs of feelings, the horizontal axis is in mutable, thinking signs. If it was the other way around it might not be so bad. But his dreams, vision and manner of assessing the motives and relationships of/with others. Hence the distrust indicated by Mercury opposite Mars. No strong sense of ethics here, its all personal smoke and mirrors in which what he thinks is what is his reality is.

There is no personality attributes which are detestable. What is there is a person who wrestles with his own snakes and in doing so makes others do the same so that he can use the outside world to compare to his inner world. We all do that to some extent. He has just involved others in doing it for him. Dave

Minderwiz
12-12-2010, 18:41
Before we go any further on the dissection of Julian Assange, can we establish how reliable Dave's quoted chart details are?

Getting an accurate recorded birth time is always the issue facing an Astrologer, even the client/subject themselves can be unreliable, either through imparting false accuracy for what is in reality an estimated birth time or simply going on what they have been told by a relative. Many countries do not, as a matter of course, record the birth time on the birth certificate.

Now following up Dave's post I've found two different times quoted from two successively viewed websites. The Mountain Astrologer recently (7th Dec 2010) ran an article on it's website claiming to have access to insider information from someone who has seen the birth records:

http://mountainastrologer.com/tma/birth-time-for-julian-assange

This would yield a different Ascendant and MC to that quoted by Dave It also has Jupiter more angular than Neptune.

I checked for another reference and got a completely different time from

http://darkstarastrology.com/julian-assange-horoscope-eris/

Which is also different from Dave's and has Neptune/Saturn nowhere near an angle, thus (if true) invalidating most of Dave's conclusions

So we now have three possble Ascendant/MC combinations from 3 successive sources. No doubt there are more variants out there.

So Dave, what is your source and how reliable is it?

Kibeth
12-12-2010, 19:45
Is he a hacker? Perhaps, to some extent. He didn't steal much of what is on Wikileaks. Others did. Others are the hackers or the thieves of records and information who pass it on to Wikeleaks. He is a facilitator by virtue of providing a technology framework which others can use and which he doesn't have to be personally involved moment by moment. He is seen as being the bad guy --- perhaps he is, but I see him as a facilitator with mischief on his mind and a reluctance to be personally, directly involved. I see him as being distant, at arms length to getting his fingers dirty.

Ethical. I don't think so. Neptune-Saturn square Mars point to depression, emotional control lacking in terms of how one acts, how one thinks. The vertical axis is in fixed signs of feelings, the horizontal axis is in mutable, thinking signs. If it was the other way around it might not be so bad. But his dreams, vision and manner of assessing the motives and relationships of/with others. Hence the distrust indicated by Mercury opposite Mars. No strong sense of ethics here, its all personal smoke and mirrors in which what he thinks is what is his reality is.

This one is easiest to address.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julian_Assange#Hacking

says:

"In 1987, after turning 16, Assange began hacking under the name "Mendax" (derived from a phrase of Horace: "splendide mendax," or "nobly untruthful").[2] He and two other hackers joined to form a group which they named the International Subversives. Assange wrote down the early rules of the subculture: "Don’t damage computer systems you break into (including crashing them); don’t change the information in those systems (except for altering logs to cover your tracks); and share information".[2]

In response to the hacking, the Australian Federal Police raided his Melbourne home in 1991.[19] He was reported to have accessed computers belonging to an Australian university, the Canadian telecommunications company Nortel,[2] and other organisations, via modem.[20] In 1992, he pleaded guilty to 24 charges of hacking and was released on bond for good conduct after being fined AU$2100.[2][21] The prosecutor said "there is just no evidence that there was anything other than sort of intelligent inquisitiveness and the pleasure of being able to—what's the expression—surf through these various computers".[2]"

And the fact that it takes ability to hack, and how many in the world can claim that they've hacked into a computer before? Over 99% of the modern world can't. AND those who did also vandalized the systems they hacked into. Like release a virus/worm/etc that exploits a working system to the world.

Kibeth
12-12-2010, 19:47
@ Minderwiz

Townsville 6 Australia 07/03/1971 14:05

^ It's anyone's guess, but I'll take this one.

Minderwiz
12-12-2010, 20:07
@Kibeth

Well on the basis of my investigation to date, I'd agree with you, or at least the possible span of time quoted by TMA.

I have found several Astrologers who have commented that the Interpol Arrest warrant was their first information about Assange's natal details, and that that warrant gave time of birth as 'unknown' However the Warrant is reported as giving the date of birth as 3rd July 1971. This is now widely quoted on the web, even for non-Astrological purposes. On 3rd July the Sun cannot possibly be at 29 Cancer as quoted by Dave - his chart must relate to a birth date much later in July, around 22nd/23rd depending on rounding of the degree.

Now Dave may well have access to a more reliable source than TMA and Interpol,though as an established professional journal I would have thought that they would have done a proper verification of their source (hopefully) and I would have thought that Interpol would also have reliable sources

I'm not sure of the recording of birth times in Australia - the Interpol warrant implies that the data is not recorded on the birth certificate, or at least was not recorded at the time of his birth. The TMA supports that inference by specifically saying that the data was not on the certificate but was from associated medical records of the birth. Perhaps an Australian member can shed light on the practice there - is it National or by State?

Edited to add

Assange seems to have been very mobile in the last few yeas, so we might also need to consider whether Dave's reading applies to the 'present' Assange - can the shift of location mitigate those squares/oppositions as they are now no longer angular? (assuming they were in the first place and assuming that a peripatetic existence qualifies as 'relocation')

In particular, would the paran squares hold if relocated to another place - the planet involved my not have been simltaneously angular on the date of birth at the new location, at any time at all during that day.

Apparently registration of births in Australia is a State function, so anyone know if Queensland records birth times?

Minderwiz
12-12-2010, 21:52
I can't respond to your PM because your inbox is full and you need to clear space. I've tried several times but the site is adamant that you have to act first LOL

Kibeth
13-12-2010, 20:33
@ Minderwiz

I've cleaned up some messages now. Sry, didn't know the box was full.

Ahhh ... It appears the mobile lifestyle goes even further back.

According to The New Yorker
link: http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2010/06/07/100607fa_fact_khatchadourian?currentPage=all

"Assange’s mother believed that formal education would inculcate an unhealthy respect for authority in her children and dampen their will to learn. “I didn’t want their spirits broken,” she told me. In any event, the family had moved thirty-seven times by the time Assange was fourteen, making consistent education impossible."

What we do know is he's a Sun Cancer and the Mother plays a very important part of a Cancer's life from a very young age. Thus it was Nurture, perhaps partly, that made him rebellious to the establishment, as compared to Nature, which we try to derive from his natal chart.

I've also wondered about the white hair. Rather unusual for a man still in his prime. I thought it was his natural color was platinum blond until I read this (from the same source):

"In 1999, after nearly three dozen legal hearings and appeals, Assange worked out a custody agreement with his wife. Claire told me, “We had experienced very high levels of adrenaline, and I think that after it all finished I ended up with P.T.S.D. It was like coming back from a war. You just can’t interact with normal people to the same degree, and I am sure that Jules has some P.T.S.D. that is untreated.” Not long after the court cases, she said, Assange’s hair, which had been dark brown, became drained of all color."

What really makes this guy tick? This evidence suggests "his son"!


@ Dave

If his chart concurs that his life was smoke and mirrors, illusions, then it'd be about tearing them down. Isn't it?

dadsnook2000
13-12-2010, 21:16
Some charts are very difficult to read objectively without having either extensive knowledge and information about the subject (public and personal) or being in direct dialog with the subject.

The problem comes from linking each astrological symbol and each grouping of symbols to specific actions, responses, feelings, attitudes and situations. We do this often on this list and other places where we practice, BUT we don't always have to deal with a Grand Cross type of chart with that pattern at the angles. This is a tough challenge.

The information you have noted is helpful in contributing to the discussion about him and the consequences of his current direction in life. As I had noted about his Neptune-versus-Saturn pattern, which I also have in my chart, he seems to be confusing reality (as seen by others) with idealism (as seen by him). This is one of those astrological patterns which can be used as a bridge between taking a vision and making something practical happen with it. I did this through marketing, sales, product engineering (in my work life) and through astrology and tarot and graphic arts (in my personal life).

It is my normal practice to start assessing a chart based on the one or two most prominent factors -- in Assange's case this meant the Sun-Moon and the Grand Cross. Unfortunately, this is a very entwined and complex set of symbols AND the nature of his family life and adult life only complicates it further.

Perhaps we should contrast this with another GC chart. Dave

Minderwiz
14-12-2010, 05:05
Some charts are very difficult to read objectively without having either extensive knowledge and information about the subject (public and personal) or being in direct dialog with the subject.

The problem comes from linking each astrological symbol and each grouping of symbols to specific actions, responses, feelings, attitudes and situations. We do this often on this list and other places where we practice, BUT we don't always have to deal with a Grand Cross type of chart with that pattern at the angles. This is a tough challenge.

Yes reading a chart cold is never easy and there can be quite a few problems with getting an accurate reading, not having access to the subject being one of them

It is my normal practice to start assessing a chart based on the one or two most prominent factors -- in Assange's case this meant the Sun-Moon and the Grand Cross. Unfortunately, this is a very entwined and complex set of symbols AND the nature of his family life and adult life only complicates it further.

Perhaps we should contrast this with another GC chart. Dave

Yes that seems a good idea. Kibeth has just posted a thread specifically on Assange and no doubt that will yield some pertinent information which we can use here.

I'm still not sure about those paran squares and relocation - perhaps you can clear that one up before we go on.

I haven't got any charts with a GC in it, as we've ruled out my own on the grounds of it using the nodes. Perhaps you have one that you can put in, or if anyone has such a chart they could 'donate' it. Then we can contrast it with Assanges's chart, as you suggest.

Astraea
14-12-2010, 05:36
Hi to all. I have been following this thread with interest and unfortunately cannot add much to it, as I am unable to type for very long. But I did want to make a couple of points.

First, it bears repeating that Assange's data is speculative at this point, even though the chart it yields seems to fit; until we see actual corroboration of birth time (his date and place of birth are confirmed by Interpol), everything said about personal points like the angles must be regarded as provisional.

Second, in Dadsnook's interpretation of the chart, the Sun is stated to be at 29 degrees of Cancer, which cannot be true for a July 3 birthday. So I wonder what date of birth Dadsnook is actually using.

Minderwiz' points about parans and relocation seem quite relevant to me, as well. But until we know for certain what Assange's angles are, we can't really have a good discussion about parans - relocated or not.

dadsnook2000
14-12-2010, 05:38
The planets at the angles of Assange's natal chart are important in that they are an imprint he carries for life. That said, a relocation (not a short stay) to a new "home" area will change the angles and the positioning of planets at those angles---unless one moves a corresponding distance such that a natal angle is brought to another angle based on the new location. This happens more than one might think. Yoko Ono, moving from Tokyo to New York city is one case, Enrico Fermi moving from Rome to Chicago where he built the first Atomic Pile is another case that comes to mind.

However, when it comes to Solar Returns, if one is at or near the latitude of their birth then it is quite possible to have the natal angles at the solar return angles. They will definitely show up on the S/R charts progressed angles during the coming year. In these cases, the natal imprint will be strongly reaffirmed.

Whereas Assange seems to have shifted his base of operations from the southern hemisphere to Europe, this may not be the case for him. However, when any of the GC planets are activated by a transit or a S/R or daily chart angle then the whole GC pattern will be either activated or ready to act if another factor or two is involved. Since there are always other planets moving around, those factors are likely to occur from time to time.

Remember, Leopards don't lose their spots, they just adapt to different hiding places. If stand by my views that he is sneaky and doesn't trust others. This not only shapes his public ventures but is a reflection of his private life---for this we must be sympathetic. Dave

Astraea
14-12-2010, 05:57
The planets at the angles of Assange's natal chart are important in that they are an imprint he carries for life.
But what data are you using to arrive at those angles? We can't speak of angles until we have a reliable birth time.

Edited to add: Sun could only be at 29 degrees Cancer on July 23, not on July 3; and the angles stated in the above post (Sag Asc., Leo MC) do not correspond with those of the speculative 2:05 PM birth time discussed above, and referenced in a separate thread.

dadsnook2000
14-12-2010, 06:11
I am using the data of July 23, 1971 at 2:05 PM, Townsville, Australia 146E48 19S16. That yields an MC of 16 Leo, an Ascendant of 8 Sag. For this data, the chart is valid. If anyone has another date and/or time and/or place, we can cast a chart for that alternative. This is the only data I have to work with. Dave

Astraea
14-12-2010, 06:17
Dave, earlier in the thread, several references were made to an anonymous source who claims to have seen a birth record (not a birth certificate) stating a time of 2:05 PM on July 3, 1971. This is the time and date reported (but unverified) by The Mountain Astrologer and Skyscript. Interpol gives his date of birth as July 3, 1971. A July 23 date of birth seems unlikely and puts any serious discussion of those angles out of reach, at this point.

Edited to add: The specific post referenced above is #15.

Minderwiz
14-12-2010, 06:42
But of course if he was born on 3rd July, at 14:05 as quoted - by TMA/Skyscript - NONE of the four planets would be sufficiently angular - Saturn at 1 degree Gemini is 46 degrees from the Descendant at 17 Taurus. that is the worst but Neptune is 13 degrees away from the Ascendant, and Mars 15 degrees away from the IC.

If we wind the chart back to Mercury on the MC from its 'natal' position in the ninth, Mars moves to the fifth House, Saturn is on the cusp of the eighth and Neptune on the cusp of the second.

So how confident are you that there was a Grand Cross to begin with?

Where did you get the date of 23 July from?

And it seems curious that you used a time of 14:05 which matches the time quoted on TMA and Skyscript - either they've read the data incorrectly or you have - so let's have your source so we can put this to bed. If your source is reliable I can also contact Deb Houlding and let her know.

Astraea
14-12-2010, 06:55
But of course if he was born on 3rd July, at 14:05 as quoted - by TMA/Skyscript - NONE of the four planets would be sufficiently angular
Yes, exactly. We need to have a well sourced set of data before we can reliably interpret angular configurations in an individual's chart.

Minderwiz
14-12-2010, 07:06
Furthermore a 20 day discrepency significantly affects the Sun/Moon relationship which you and I both a lot of emphasis on

If the date really is 3rd July, your whole reading unravels

If the date is really 23rd then Deb Houlding had better be told before she makes an even bigger fool of herself

Please help Dave