Divining life instead of living it.

I have noticed that when some people begin to work with divination, they develop a curious tendency. They no longer speak to people, confront them, dare. Instead, they sit down and read about their feelings/thoughts/possible reactions.

They no longer go and take a leap of faith, instead they sit down and analyze whether they should take said leap, which makes the whole "faith" thing just a matter of semantics.

Perhaps divination gives us the false idea that by understanding life, we can control it.

I'm not judging anyone for doing it, I have done it and I know it's easier to ask the cards about what is So-and-So thinking and feeling instead of asking them and risking making a fool of yourself. Or risking hearing the truth from their lips.

However, I see many threads and readings asking questions that would do no harm if they were directed to the person the reading is about. "Is my sister angry at me?" Why not ask her, and perhaps even use the opportunity to apologize. "Does he still want anything with me?" Why not confront him? Two things will happen if you do so:
- If the answer is not, you might suffer and feel sad for a while. But once the hurting-healing period is over, you'll be free from obsessing and reading everyday about someone who probably doesn't deserve you.
- If the answer is yes, what a blessing! No more reading - just enjoying.

No. It seems that reading is more certain than trying, than living, than risking. I see many readers living inside bubbles, and yet feeling entitled to comment on what others should and shouldn't do. Feeling it's their right to make assumption about other people's feelings and experiences, since they are so full of card-reading wisdom. But when was the last time they had an experience outside of the cards? When was the last time they had a relationship in which they didn't read about every week, in attempts to control it? When was the last time they made a decision without 10 different readings behind it? When was the last time they went with their hearts, and not with what the cards said?

Perhaps it is just my neurosis speaking. So I ask you: do you think that divination/fortune-telling sometimes make people watch and analyze life too much, instead of going out there and living it?


EDITED: I am NOT talking about every person who uses divination. I'm talking about some people, and asking a question. I apologize if this was not clear enough.

You are generalizing pretty heavily from a few examples. I rarely act as you describe and unless the circumstances are so tense as to preclude a direct conversation immediately (when I might ask the cards for the best route into one), I do go directly to people. Yes, some folks do get stuck in that mode, but they don't even have to be readers themselves, they are what gets referred to sometimes as serial querents.

I remember when I first discovered the I Ching, the first oracle that really worked for me, I asked dozens of questions, but once I had established my 'space references' then I quit doing that within a year or so.

Personally, I think you are speaking of a personality type more than those in general who use divination as a tool for their lives.

Alta

Alta said:

You are generalizing pretty heavily from a few examples.

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They are very common examples, and taken from reality. They were not made up, but I am not going to link to direct posts because my intention is not to offend anyone, simply question why is this so common.

Alta said:

I rarely act as you describe and unless the circumstances are so tense as to preclude a direct conversation immediately (when I might ask the cards for the best route into one), I do go directly to people.

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I wasn't talking about every person who reads cards out there, but about some people, who often do that and never seem to break from it.

Alta said:

Yes, some folks do get stuck in that mode, but they don't even have to be readers themselves, they are what gets referred to sometimes as serial querents.

I remember when I first discovered the I Ching, the first oracle that really worked for me, I asked dozens of questions, but once I had established my 'space references' then I quit doing that within a year or so.

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Of course, I did the same thing when I discovered tarot nearly 10 years ago. I'm not blaming anyone for doing that, I am just wondering if someone else notices this happening. I help people, I give them possible interpretations, and see them coming back two days later with yet another reading, without having done anything to change their situation.

Life requires action, and I am questioning if reading cards sometimes is not a way to avoid action.

Alta said:

Personally, I think you are speaking of a personality type more than those in general who use divination as a tool for their lives.

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You misread my post. I was not talking about everyone who uses divination tools in their lives, or I'd be including myself in it. I'm talking about people I watch and help in the forums I'm a member of, and wondering if the problem I see comes from the fact people read cards or not.

Marina said:

I have noticed that when people begin to work with divination, they develop a curious tendency. They no longer speak to people, confront them, dare. Instead, they sit down and read about their feelings/thoughts/possible reactions.

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I understand this, because I've seen it too, but for the most part it's been the opposite for me - especially over the past couple of years.

I've also made the mistake of not listening to my cards or my intuition, and believing what someone told me - something I later found out to be a lie - but I made excuses for them when I shouldn't have, two years ago. My cards were right then - they predicted we would be friends when I was angry at them, and thinking, "No way!" That Three of Cups kept coming up, when I would do a reading as a reminder to myself that they were gone, that I was being stupid, etc... and these cards showed up six weeks before they contacted me again. When I listened to both cards and intuition, *and* spoke to this person, I would walk, only to have them contact me - and then go into their usual pattern - only to surprise the hell out of me late 2009, and change their story on me at times last year, as well as one time two years ago, when I should have been smarter, and stayed away.

Sorry for the rambling post; I'm not awake, and will edit out most of this later on. My point is that some people won't always be honest, and are uncomfortable with that directness. I was accused of playing games, by the person in the above paragraph, when I'd done anything but with them - talk about projection.

Marina said:

Perhaps it is just my neurosis speaking. So I ask you: do you think that divination/fortune-telling sometimes make people watch and analyze life too much, instead of going out there and living it?


EDITED: I am NOT talking about every person who uses divination. I'm talking about some people, and asking a question. I apologize if this was not clear enough.

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I think this is a danger with anything. Being caught up in the emotionally unavailable person can be an excuse for not really letting yourself go with a person who will do the same with you - investing in you, trusting you, loving you (been there, done that, and it just made me more certain of what I want - I don't want that). The internet has taken away from certain types of socializing - yesterday, I read a post from someone who was annoyed because Facebook was seen by another person in the family, as a primary mode of contact, rather than the phone - she could have been easily reached, but because she didn't have this person friended on FB, things went pear-shaped. Watching TV, reading blogs - watching other people live or talk about the lives they're living... I've recognized that in myself. (I've spent all kinds of time here reading other peoples' readings in the reading exchanges, but haven't taken the plunge myself.)

I don't know if I'm making any sense... I'm not feeling well.

Yes, I have seen this happen with SOME people, and it troubles me. If we cannot live our lives without asking the cards (or the chicken bones, or whatever) first, that is pretty scary. I realise it isn't perhaps very MANY people, but the people I have seen taking that approach were not doing themselves any favours, IMHO. I don't even just mean about things with pother people, when you could (and IMHO SHOULD !) as the other person rather than effectively second -guessing them with cards etc - but right down to "should I apply for this job."

You HAVE to make decisions, sometimes.

hopena - have a hot toddy Get well soon !

Yes, I've seen this tendency in a few people. In addition to the points you've made, I find myself wondering how often they don't ask the person, or act directly, because they think the cards are telling them not to. The cards can be a powerful guide and growth tool. But they shouldn't be a replacement for living our lives fully, and in the moment.

I also wonder, in some cases, if its a coping/distancing mechanism to deal with overwhelming emotions, and that over time they'll calm down and be able to deal with the issues directly. I hope so.

I know what you mean, Marina. Here's my take.

I believe the crucial difference is between asking the cards questions like
- "Should I apply for that job?"
- "Does X still love me?"
- "Is my sister angry at me?"

and questions like
- "What do I need to know about applying for that job?" / "How can I improve my application for that job?" / "What kind of job would fulfill my goal of a lot of money/a lot of satisfaction/a lot of free time best?"
- "What do I need to know about Xs feelings for me?" / "Why am I still hung up on X and what can I do to move on?" / "What can I do to improve the relation between X and me?"
- "Why is my sister angry at me and what can I do to better understand her point of view/patch things up between us/help her see my point of view/stop caring about what she thinks of me?"

The first batch are "passive" questions. They imply giving responsibility for decisions away to the cards and/or try to read other people's minds.

The second batch are "active" questions. They focus in what the querent needs to know (which may just as well be to stop asking!) or what the querent feels, and they are centered on actions the querent can take. These actions may be wildly different, depending on the actual goal - which the querent first has to choose, of course.

Personally, I much prefer reading about the second kind of questions, for myself and others. In fact, if I try to get the tarot to actually make a decision for me (yes, I've been tempted to do so), I tend to fail every single time (no matter if I read myself or if someone else reads for me). Even when I didn't say I wanted the cards to decide for me and worded my question nice and "actively", my secret expectation came through in the way I remained "unfulfilled" by the reading. Which is why I suspect all the "repeat" questions happen: some part of the querent wasn't satisfied. And I don't think it's always as simple as them wanting to hear "yes, X loves you" but maybe they actually want to know "why can't I stop thinking about X?" and don't know how to ask that... Maybe we need to gently teach people how to ask effective questions that will actually help them rather than just telling them they're giving their power away to tarot?

Yes, I do read the cards when I have to make important decisions (many semi-important questions already resolve themselves when I figure out what exactly it is that I want to know). I've found asking the cards helpful before going out to talk to X or to my sister, especially in situations where there already were serious misunderstandings - because my usual way of doing things obviously didn't work and maybe the cards can help me see another approach. I've also sometimes read on the state of relationships (not just romantic ones), especially when I have reason to suspect I am being lied to or that crucial information is withheld from me.
I still prefer to directly talk to people. I just sometimes ask the cards in preparation, as I might talk things through with a friend over coffee.

If I'd find myself doing readings before/after every encounter with a person, or if I found that I generally don't trust my gut feeling anymore, I'd certainly have a problem, however.

GryffinSong said:

I also wonder, in some cases, if its a coping/distancing mechanism to deal with overwhelming emotions, and that over time they'll calm down and be able to deal with the issues directly.

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For me that's true. The one time I did a lot of readings about the same person/relationship within a short time period was a new and rather confusing crush on someone. Communication between us was prone to misunderstandings, too, so "just talking to them" didn't necessarily help with clarifying anything.
That said, having a crush at least partly equals losing control, so I believe we should enjoy it as much as we can.

I do see as; Marina says; many questions asked that could easily be solved with a face to face. I think perhaps in these cases the people are looking for reassurances to what they hope the other's feelings are? When I read the threads like that they tend to use a lot of hopeful words, and when interpertations fall from their choosen Idea's (the therory of the reading) I tend to see a lot of "but this or that could mean this or that still right??" Sort of like "experimentail bias" in psychology. (rather then test the hypothesis persented)

I would hazard in a nutshell it is much easier, and certainly emotionally more "safe" to divine answers than ask. It is sort of like day-dreaming but with a tool that makes claim to know the truth and see the answer for you, thus justifing going no farther...."HERE is the answer, I am done". I think some of these types of readings are not looking for answers but affirmations. Those, to me, are the same question three times with slighter different words or day asked over and over untill they get an aswer that fits thier personal therory.

A guess a daydream holds more hope then a outright rejection from someone on these common relationship style questions where i see this pattern the most, and the cards are a compromise between a day dream and hard confirmation of facts and feelings. It is the safe path, but not the best path and if you truly believe the cards you can live your life without ever testing your ability to interpret the cards by asking the person who's inner life and feelings you are sharing only through the cards.

I tend to Divine for things that I can not know the future to through asking real people or talking to experts, or it will be a end result sort of question that encompass many factors, like going back to school for example: it means quiting a job, perhaps selling my house to afford the Masters or do I go student loans, time away from my kids, etc, you get the idea I am sure. .
I am looking for things I might have missed. Factors I overlooked to help me answer my question, not for the cards to tell me what to do, personaly.

It would be interesting to hear from a few members who feels they fall under the original non judgemental question...

Marina said:

So I ask you: do you think that divination/fortune-telling sometimes make people watch and analyze life too much, instead of going out there and living it?

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I think that the type of people who are drawn to divination in the first place are those who tend to be more introspective and analytical than most people. So it seems natural, especially when first starting out, for those people to ask the cards all sorts of questions, all the time. Over time, I believe, most readers do this less and less frequently. For example, I hardly ever read for myself anymore, and I remember when I first started, I thought Nisaba was going to come to my home and confiscate my cards if I didn't stop asking and start DOING. Maybe some people never get out of that phase, and that's too bad.

This is why I'm careful who I'll read for in the exchanges. There are people there who will ask the same question of everyone who offers a reading. That is annoying and, I think, disrespectful toward the cards. But that maybe another topic entirely!