Aeclectic Tarot Forum - Rider Waite or Universal Waite

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Little Baron

18-06-2003, 13:33

Was just wondering where people stand on this one!

I have been using the original Rider Waite. I have had this deck for a number of years and as I have explained in a few of the other threads, have never really delved into its symbolism until this time. I am enjoying the experience a lot.

However, in refering to my deck yesterday, I noticed the absence of 'The heirophant'. I checked and checked again. I looked in my box, I looked everywhere but he had vanished. I don't know if anybody else has had this experience. I have never mislaid or lost a card from any deck before. Reasons for why this may have happened, aside from me being an idiot for not taking care of the card, I look forward to your insights.

Due to the absence of this card, I decided that I would purchase another Waite deck so that my readings are complete. Instead of buying a replica of the first (maybe my missing hirophant will turn up at some point), I thought I would buy the 'Universal' Waite. I just opened the deck and can see the lavishness and sharpness of the images in comparison to the former deck but wondered if any of you feel that some of the original mystery has been lost since they have been re-coloured and in some cases, re-drawn. I know, from reading reviews, that the revised edition brings a lot of extra light and meaning to their readings. I suppose that what I am asking is 'do you look at this deck as a stronger version of the Rider Waite or do you see it as a completely different one'?

Look forward to your responses.

Yaboot

Little Baron

18-06-2003, 14:14

After writing the last post, I started looking through my 'Universal' deck again. I wanted to compare some of the images with the 'Rider Waite', so I pulled the deck side by side to look at any differences. As I sifted through the deck, one card sprung from beneath the other. I always like to see what cards jump and as I picked it up, I realised what I half-expected, that it was 'The Hierophant'.

I am pleased that he is back safe and well, and I am also pleased that I have the 'Universal' to refer to. While I was shopping for the 'Universal', I also bought 'Seventy-Eight Degrees of Wisdom' by Rachel Pollack. I had heard so many good things about that book and had meant to buy it for some time. I had looked in my local book-sellers but they did not have it. I travelled on the train this afternoon to purchase the 'Universal' deck and the book was there. Maybe 'The Heirophant' thought that I needed that information and hid himself so that I would travel and find it.

Both decks are safe and well and I can continue with my studies.

Yaboot

Macavity

18-06-2003, 20:17

I think the Universal Waite is indeed an excellent thing? ;)

I think it's greatest asset is that one can actually SEE SOMETHING in some of the cards esp. e.g. the King of Pentacles. I think then, having seen, one can always return to the original renditions (for the colours etc.?), but perhaps with new insight...

Macavity

divinerguy

18-06-2003, 22:30

I have the Albano-Waite. The different colors are a nice change of pace from the Rider-Waite.

I use both, but I'd lean toward the Albano if asked to choose between the two.

sagitarian

18-06-2003, 23:17

The universal waite is easier for me to read, the colors are softer, and everything is more detailed, more pleasing to look at with still using the original art ideas, same images, just more clear and softer.

Really it's a personal choice, but I like my universal waite deck!

paradoxx

18-06-2003, 23:20

check out www.facade.com and the aquatic tarot for another beautiful reindition of this classic deck.

There is a power to each version of teh Rider-Waite each with its own interpretations, i can see the use of the original design (as i have that style in the form of an electronic deck) but the universal waite with its intense golds and reds makes for a very useful diviniation tool.

rota

19-06-2003, 12:18

Since I started with Tarot as a kid, I always had a special affection for the RWS. I've flirted with other types of decks, and some of the relationships were fairly serious, but it's the RWS that I consider to be my own Tarot standard. (I can hear the chorus of booing out there in the Thoth galleries...! I love you guys.) There's just something about the American version of European medievalism that rings a little bell for me. All that being said, I have most of the various versions of the RWS here at hand, and I think I prefer the Albano Waite so far. It's colorful *enough*, without going overboard. The Universal redrawings lose some of the charming flatness and skewed perspectives of Pixie's drawing, so while I use it often it's not my favorite.

I feel that the 'problems' with Pamela Colman Smith's images are a large part of what makes the symbolism so effective for me. Which is to say - since they're not realistic, they are therefore representative of something non-physical.

I'm hoping for more versions of the RWS to appear in the future.

Emily

19-06-2003, 12:29

My first Rider Waite was the original version in the blue/gold box, I still don't think its very pretty to look at plus if I'd known that the other versions were easier on the eye I would have bought one of those but it took me nearly a year to get hold of a Universal Waite and I'm glad I persevered, the colouring brings the cards to life, there are details now that you can see clearly, it is a very appealing deck and the only Rider Waite I use now for reading and study.

skysilver

09-07-2003, 02:56

I like the Universal waite deck better...

The colors are softer and catching to my eyes... It really does make reading the cards easier. I have the original rider waite deck and the colors are more harsh and a little harder to look at. I will probably get the universal waite someday.

Sulis

09-07-2003, 05:18

There`s a site somewhere where you can see all the different versions of the Waite deck. Does anyone know which site it is?

Crystalmynx xx

Hedera

09-07-2003, 05:33

Crystalmynx, there are quite a few here:

http://www.lelandra.com/rwsclones/tarotrwspcsline.htm

I like Joan's mini-reviews a lot. One of the four sites I check if I'm thinking about getting a new deck.

Le_Corsair

09-07-2003, 08:22

Albano-Waite. The RWS itself is horribly colored, and has the dreaded plaid backs that I have yet to see anyone say anything nice about; the Universal Waite is pretty, its backs are an improvement on the RWS (stars on navy field), but it seems at times CUTE, which I dislike, probably the baleful influence of Mary Hanson-Roberts, the queen of Fluffy Bunny Decks. The Albano-Waite has a good masculine color scheme, a great back (white with rising sun (?) in center). Plus there's the mystery of whatever happened to Frankie Albano.

Two RWS clones I have yet to buy are the Golden Rider and Carol Herzer's Illuminated Tarot. I intend to buy both of them.

And while we're at it, I want Rota's International Icon tarot. Hurry up already, Robin!

Bob :THERM

:OL :WL :CL :SL

Hedera

09-07-2003, 08:32

I've seen the Golden Rider and it looks pretty good, imho.

I'm eagerly awaiting the Radiant Rider Waite.

littlegreen

10-07-2003, 18:41

Little Baron

11-08-2003, 08:16

Littlegreen, do you have the New Vision? I am eagerly awaiting somebodies views on this that have used it. I was so interested when I first saw it but am not so sure now.

What is it like to work with? Any surprises from the new angles?

Yaboot

Cerulean

14-09-2003, 17:13

1. If you want to see the Universal Waite and the 1992 U.S. Games version, it is at www.tarot.com

Online, at www.tarot.com. First choose the 'about tarot' and go to the links to 'browse decks.' It only seems to work if you don't log in as a user.

The Rider Waite and Universal Waite are both available to see the cards, one at a time enlarged.

I noticed that the Universal Waite's softer coloring of the Nine of Swords sometimes softens a few details. I almost online cannot see the astrological glyphs on the comforter of the woman's bed. Now the comforter overhangs a small mural carved in the wood at the side of the bed--a kind of Greco-Roman frieze that is kind of hard to see in the horrible red of the "original" Rider-Waite. I sometimes have to look at the Giant Waite to see details.

2. A discussion by Arthur Waite of his cards and Holly Volley's comparison of three Rider Waite cards, from 1909 and 1970.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/tarot/pkt/pkttp.htm

It comes from this site:

http://www.sacred-texts.com/tarot/

3. I've seen one newer big box of the Albano Waite by U.S. Games and small boxes of the mini Albano Waite at my local Borders.com. So I don't think it's out of print yet. I'll see if the Albano has a better image of that card and others.

Guess what! The backs on the Albano Waite is very pretty, just an added detail that made me like this for travel. The glyphs for astrology on the quilt are not clearer, but the frieze with the duel to the left of the comforter is clearer.

Some of the shadowing and even the somewhat pop-art colors just were easier on my eyes, as I have to look at the cards from low-to-bright light conditions.

I took my discount coupon from Borders and decided to also do the low-tech CyberTarot book--it only analyzes the Rider Waite with keyword listings and the hokey program is major archana only---but I needed help working with my Celtic Cross. It also explained the duel on the frieze of the Nine of Swords, a discussion point I've not seen before.

Thanks those of you who pointed out the Albano Waite--it actually is working for me.

Mari Hoshizaki

Cerulean

14-09-2003, 23:11

I checked out reviews of amazon.com and two people wrote that the coloring on the Albano might be closer to the esoteric tradition. I'm not certain...? I do know that the Adam Fronteras Rider Waitedeck, which has a nice book, but probably unfavored coloring, had a similar color scheme, kind of pop art...

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0880794666/ref=cm_cr_dp_2_1/104-9726560-4033542?v=glance&s=books&vi=customer-reviews/aeclectic/

If I find anything that substantiates the claim, I'll open a new thread in Talking Tarot.

Mari H.

Caileadair

26-09-2003, 21:49

chiming in to say that I, too, prefer my Universal Waite deck....it really re-invigorated my desire to learn tarot (which had been a bit stagnant with just the RWS deck).

of course, I caught the tarot-holic bug so now I have 9 decks! *lol*

peace,
Cail

wolfen045

07-10-2003, 14:58

I just picked up a used copy of the Universal waite. It is easier on the eyes than the US Games version of RWS I already had. I am thinking of using the Universal for meditation and the RSW for my readings for others. I currently use the Vampire tarot in reading for myself. Blessings Wolfen

Little Baron

01-08-2005, 05:55

I have to say that I prefer the Original to the Universal.

And I am not quite sure how to explain 'why'.

The 'cleaning up' of the illustrations via The Universal actually does the reverse for me. It makes it harder for me to see into the cards. It reminds me of what it is like to wake up at night in an almost dark room. At first, as you begin to wake, you see patterns in the barely lit objects - things look different to how you would usually recognise them. Shadows alter their appearance. Turn the light on and the mystery disappears.

I like the starkness of the original versions. They help me with my intuition when I read the cards. I like the dull colours in some sets. Someone here said that Mary Hanson-Roberts 'fluffed' up the original and I must say, there is a cuteness that does not appeal to me. I like the heavy feeling I get from the original and the story-book-like scenes. They are consistant and work together. The Universal feels almost sterile in comparison.

I have the deck in the blue and gold box and have used it a lot over the years. I am often interested in getting the one in the yellow box to see how the 'blues' feel, rather than the sage greens. I looked at some scans and it seemed as though the drawings were a little tighter and the colouring, almost a bit 'computer generated' and lacking in small details - the face of the child in the Sun card, as an example. Can anyone confirm this? On an edition of the Giant RWS, the nice fonts of card titles also seemd modernaised and their background, was a jarring deep grey. Are all versions of this colouring like this. I like the soft tan of the copy I have and would like that on another edition, should I buy one.

Best,
LB

Saleheim

01-08-2005, 07:13

I have the Original and the Radiant. Although the Radiant is more beautiful in colour I still like the Original the best and it's the deck I still use more often.

By the way, anyone notice that the Radiant left something out while translating the Original deck? I noticed that the King of Swords card no longer has birds flying in the air as on the Original. They probably forgot to draw them as the Queen of Swords has.

Little Baron

01-08-2005, 07:19

mythos

01-08-2005, 07:43

From the Waite-Colman Smith decks, I have:
1. The Original RW
2. RWS
3. Universal Waite
4. Albano Waite
5. Radiant Waite

From the not-quite Waite-Colman-Smith
1. The Universal Tarot (de Angelis)
2. The Tarot of the New Vision

Okay ... It took me years to connect with the RWS, the first one of the series that I got. Hated the colours and the back, but I bought it when I bought 78 Degrees some years back. Loved the book - still do, it's dog-earred, and scribbled on, and the pages are browning, and I re-read it every few years.

I can now read easily with the RWS, but I still just don't like the colouring and the backs.

When I got the Universal Waite (UW) it was like a breath of fresh air. I had a few quibbles. The High Priestess is not deeply coloured enough for my taste, and the 6 of cups has a prettied up version of the background. In the RWS, the background shows a crumbling set of buildings ... it adds meaning to the card that is lost in the UW. Its advantages far outweigh the disadvantages for me, nonetheless. I really love this deck, the colouring, and the fineness of the lines. Let me point out here that I am not a Hanson-Roberts fan. I find her own deck too pretty-pretty for my tastes.

My next was the Original Waite-Smith (OWS). At first I was disappointed. It seemed dull in comparison to the UW and the RWS. But, as I all too often use cards for page markers, I began using it when I was too lazy to track down all the cards in either of the other decks. I now use it for my daily single card draws. I don't feel that sense of disappointment and dullness any more, though I haven't used it for bigger readings. Nor have I lined it up with my others.

I then got the the Radiant Waite (RW), and was completely enamoured of the bright and beautiful, rich and almost pungent (if you can use the word pungent for a colour - well I can, and I just did.) I love rich bright colours, and so it was inevitable that this one would woo me away from the UW. It's only lack, for me, is that we are back to the heavier lines.

I always had the Albano on my list (like I have the Golden on the list), but I was doubtful about how I would actually feel about it....but I have had it for about a month now and have been reading with it pretty much exclusively.

I think that, in the process, I have just come to love the Waite-Colman Smith decks regardless of colouring, but I have noted that my mood state does affect my choice of deck. But then so do pragmatic reasons like cards missing because they are acting as book page markers, and having the entire court of the UW in Mary Greer and Tom Little's Court Cards book.

I have never sat down and spread all the cards of each deck for comparison's sake. The mind boggles at my ability to lose at least one card ... if not many more, in the process. Moreover, my house is a haven of animal hair, and no matter how careful I am, it is everywhere, and I don't want to get the cards unnecessarily dirty. I would need to use the floor to do such a comparison.

Now:

de Angelis's Universal adds something again. The variations are enough to have me asking questions like ... what difference does that variation make meaning-wise in the reading. An example below in pictures:

With the Tarot of the New Vision, it is fascinating to lay down these cards next to their Waite-Smith counterparts, in a reading, to see how they add to, modify, take-away from the Waite. Another issue, which for me was a particularly important one, was that I found myself asking ... yes, but 'Who says this is what I'd see if the cards were turned 180 degrees?' 'What credentials does this artisit have for determining this view as opposed to another?' It made me realise that I had fallen into the trap of thinking of the Waite-Smith decks of having AUTHORITY. I hadn't really questioned why it did so. 'Was it the weight of years? Was it that it represents a change from pips to pictures with the minors? Did I believe that Waite (and our Pixie) had some 'special' knowledge that was not available to we mere mortals, and thus couldn't be questioned?' and so on, and so forth.

Mind you, it isn't that I hadn't asked questions like :'Why the hell is the female figure in the 6 of cups wearing oven mits?' But I hadn't questioned the 'authority' that put them their, really had only asked their symbolic meaning.

So, over the years I went from loathing the RWS to unquestioning acceptance of its 'authority' to questioning the deck in all the variants that I have. The changing colours, the additions and subtractions and so on, have all made for a fascinating journey. It is still my primary reading deck, but I am honest enough to admit that I am too damned lazy to learn another, and, of course, I am not yet bored with the beast.

Saleheim

01-08-2005, 07:43

I have resisted the Radiant. I really liked the idea before it came out but I think my disappointment was with the change of font. It just doesnt have that nice old handwritten feel the originals have and I think I would miss it. I have never seen the whole deck or have I looked at a copy in person, so I will reserve judgement until I do. Would be very interested to see how it looks in comparison.

Best,
LB

Personally I prefer it to the Universal one since the colours of that deck are to pastel for me and therefore changing the impact. The Radiant is just that, deep in colour, radiant. Still I return to my old original deck since I like the basic feel of it.

Annabelle

01-08-2005, 08:06

Let's see . . . I have the RWS, the Universal Waite, the Albano-Waite, the Hoi Polloi, and the Tarot of the New Vision.

By far my favorite is the Universal Waite. Mary Hanson Roberts gave us something that Pamela Colman Smith did not - faces!! I love being able to see faces on the people in the Universal Waite deck. I love the clarity of the details, and I love the colors.

I still use the RWS, though, when the Universal Waite is not easily at hand or when I just feel like a change. There's nothing wrong with it . . . I just don't find it as easy on the eyes as the Universal Waite.

I've only had the Albano-Waite a short while and still consider it to be more of a curiousity than anything else; I cannot get over some of the color differences, which in my opinion, make some of the cards distinctly ugly.

When I bought the Hoi Polloi I had originally hoped to make it a working deck, as I really loved the "retro" look of the cards that I had seen online. However, the copy I ended up with is something of a dud for me, as a number of the cards are fuzzy (as if the card stock moved as the image was being printed) and there are random blotches of color on some cards. So I don't use it, but I have compared it with the RWS a few times, and in the end I find it lacking. Too much background detail has been removed; on an intuitive level, it just wouldn't work for me.

And as for the Tarot of the New Vision, I really love it, but I haven't tried it for readings yet. I do enjoy laying it out next to the RWS to see "both sides" of the picture, and I think that in many cases it adds a great deal to the possible interpretations. However, in some cases the New Vision falls flat for me. But overall it is a lovely deck and a fabulous concept.

Little Baron

01-08-2005, 08:28

I will have to check out the other versions. I have seen samples from all but not enough to make a proper decision. I was also interested in the Hoi Poloi but in some samples I saw, the artwork did seem to be lacking somewhat, but like you, liked the retro feel on a few I had seen.

I need to go look at the Golden and Albano.

I think my problem with the Universal is that it is just too light.

LB

Little Baron

01-08-2005, 08:43

From what I could tell, I think I like the Albano better than the Golden. The Golden seems to lose details, whereas the Albano just enhances colouring. I was not too keen on the '8 of Swords' as I quite like the rustic colouring of the original version.

Will keep an eye out for the deck. It is a shame that they do not all come in exactly the same size and with the same backs, so that one could chop and change cards around for prefered colouring of each key.

LB

Sulis

01-08-2005, 09:21

Hi LittleBuddha,

I have the Albano - it's a lovely deck but the pentacles are coloured green and red - just put me off.

I don't like the Universal Waite either for exactly the same reasons you stated. It does seem sterile in some way.

My favorite for ages was the 'Original' in the blue and gold box with the sage green tones instead of blue but then I got my hands on a Rider edition - It has the World Dancer on the box. The colours are the same as the US Games version in the yellow box (I have a pocket version), the backs are blue plaid. The difference is the lamination: there is a very light, matte lamination on the Rider version and there is no copyright mark in the white border.
These decks can be picked up cheaply on e-bay uk - they really are lovely.

I've added a few attatchments of the box and a few of the cards.

Love

Sulis xx

Little Baron

01-08-2005, 13:35

Thanks Sulis. I will keep an eye out for that edition.

It is weird how differently you can interpret a card with such a slight change in colour - the green background and water in the 'two of swords' seems to cloud the woman's views, whereas the 'blue' seems to add clarity.

I am not experienced with e-bay, however so I may have to do some swotting up. Is it difficult to get them for a good price.

LB

tarobones

01-08-2005, 14:09

What a diversity of RWS versions! I have them all, but much prefer the Universal Rider Waite deck to any of the others. For me, it stands out from the pack, so to speak. The International Icon Tarot is also a delight. I am firmly planted in the RWS tradition, no matter the version. "non-scenic minors" a la Thoth and Marseilles are a definite turn off. At any rate, I am grateful for the diversity in our RWS tradition. Peace and blessings..............Michael

Little Baron

01-08-2005, 14:14

I have not always worked with the RWS tradition - infact, in the past, I have used the Thoth and Marseille traditions more. For now though, I am really enjoying getting to grips with it, and like you say, it is nice that there is enough variants to suit all of us. I think it is also nice that we can use the same set of images but change the colouring for different moods, clients and questions.

LB

The 78th Fool

01-08-2005, 14:35

I love anything RWS but I love the original Rider Waite most of all. It's the richer, muted colours and the wonderful back design that do it for me. However, like Sulis I cherish my Rider edition. it was the second deck I bought - twenty four years ago now. Next to these two I often turn to my University books edition and the radiant Rider Waite. I love the Universal waite but I do wish that US Games would re - photograph the original artwork. the reproduction is truly dreadful. The same artwork is used on the Quick and easy Tarot in a newly photographed version. Compare the two (There are scans of the Quick and Easy on Aeclectic now). The colours as reproduced here are virtually unrecogniseable in their richness to the bleached out colours of the proper Universal waite edition. I hear the pocket edition rectifies this problem - I'll have to order it to find out!

Chris. xx

Emily

03-08-2005, 09:23

I have the Original Rider Waite and the Standard in two sizes but one is Spanish. Although I do like the colouring of the Universal I like the artwork of the RWS - I always tend to use the RWS for reference, little details sometimes are missed in the Universal Waite.

The Original RWS has a limited colour and dark outlining and it did used to put me off but I do like the old feel it has to it, I started out my tarot journey with the Original Rider Waite but these days tend to reach for the standard Rider Waite but I do have to get me an English version because I'm finding the Spanish spoils my focus.

The Radiant Waite is pretty nice for colouring but again details have been lost in the re-drawing.

I like both the colouring and the artwork of the RWS its a very familiar deck but still manages to throw me off balance sometimes. :)

I think my list would be:-
Rider Waite (standard and pocket)
Original Rider Waite
Universal Waite
Radiant Rider

:)

Lee

03-08-2005, 09:48

Compare the two (There are scans of the Quick and Easy on Aeclectic now). The colours as reproduced here are virtually unrecogniseable in their richness to the bleached out colours of the proper Universal waite edition. I hear the pocket edition rectifies this problem - I'll have to order it to find out!Question from a non-artist... is it possible the brighter and more vivid colors are because of the smaller card images? I have noticed this on my mini Connolly, the colors are much more vivid than the regular size.

-- Lee

Marina

03-08-2005, 22:26

I'll be one of those who go against the current...i've seen the Universal Waite, the 'Normal' Waite, the Radiant...and i own none because i have no money. I own, however, the Original RWS and i must say that, although it scared the first time i saw it, nowadays i would never give it away or choose another RWS. It's my favorite. Yes, i do like the darkish card (even though, i must admit, the King of Pentacles is very hard to see) and the softer colours. The cards have more 'mystery' to me...they look older. They talk to something deeper than my eyes and *THAT* is what i look for. I have pretty decks that please my eyes...very few reach my soul, however.

The Mythic tarot, for instance, that many deslike because of the 'ugly drawings'....speaks deeply to me, is one very easy for me to read with. Go figure...i'm just weird :P

:TPW Yuko

Little Baron

04-08-2005, 03:19

The cards have more 'mystery' to me...they look older. They talk to something deeper than my eyes and *THAT* is what i look for. I have pretty decks that please my eyes...very few reach my soul, however.

I can totally realte to that Miss Yuko. That is the deck I use and I feel the same way, which is something I don't get with the other versions.

LB

Saleheim

07-08-2005, 07:54

suedeheadsmiths

03-03-2007, 20:52

I have both the original Waite and Universal. I love both, but probably prefer the original since it was my first deck. I do love the Universal though. No matter how many new decks I acquire in the future RW will always be my favorite. Waite has a hold on me that I can't explain. I also have Crowley's Thoth deck, but it doesn't speak to me like RW.

Chris

suedeheadsmiths

03-03-2007, 20:56

Forgot to say one thing that bothers me about original RW deck. The cardboard is very slim as opposed to the Universal which is of much thicker stock. Other than though, they are perfect to me. I'm sure someday I will have to replace my original RW since I used them most and shuffle them like playing cards. Don't know how else to shuffle them.

Chris

Little Hare

03-03-2007, 21:01

i prefer the Universal, only because the colours are easier on my eyes

mollymawk

03-03-2007, 21:44

I'll probably keep my giant size RWS (with magnifying glass handy) forever, because of all the little details on the cards--and they are there. I've been working with the Waite so long I think I know those line drawings by heart, but even now some tiny bit of information is likely to pop up and surprise me.

But for readings, I use the Illuminated. The colouring is a bit different, but I can still relate it to the kabbalistic scheme, and the details Carol left out, I'll fill in mentally when I'm reading--it's become second-nature by now.

And that's the only one of the clones I've ever really been able to stand. Maybe because even though she made a few departures in the colour scheme and left out a few details, you can tell how much she loves Pixie's work too--it shows. And it's got a magic all its own.

greenbrownie

28-09-2008, 16:17

My favourite clone is the new (from Alida) "Tarot of the New Vision" - a different way of seeing it all.

Pixie Smith's original colourings are WAY, way different from the colours we get in the US games et al mass-produced decks now. Her use of Georgian and pastel tones is amazing and makes a LOT more sense, given her background of theatre design.

Like it all; the more the merrier.

lg

i agree....would LOVE to see a transparent version (though i know that would create a need to find another way to do 'spreads'....!)

or at least one to just have as reference, to hold up to light...like stained glass...or maybe goggle inserts...or.......

:)

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